Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

gandalf

Interesting article on Aljazeera from a Moscow journalist.

He has an interesting take on who the local supporters of the pro-Russian separatism movement is.

Educated, middle-class people tend to support a united Ukraine, even though practically 100 percent of them are Russian-speakers. Supporters of separatism are largely comprised of pensioners and state employees craving for paternalist social state, like the Soviet Union. They are mixed with members of local criminal gangs and employees of law-enforcement agencies, which in a highly criminalised region like Donbass is largely the same social group.

His conclusion to what is Putins end game is very interesting as well.

The West misinterprets Putin by thinking that he wants to rebuild an empire - it is much more likely that the real goal is a compact, monoethnic and ultra-nationalist Ukraine, with the Russian element reduced to a minimum. Being intimately linked to Russia at many different levels, a successful, democratic and tolerant Ukraine threatens the existence of the mafia state and that's what is at stake for the Kremlin rulers.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-vs-russia-mafia-state--2014512164523249486.html

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

He wasn't "Yanukovych's buddy", you appear to be mixing up names at this point

I doubt he's squeaky clean, likewise I doubt the Ukrainian majority who overwhelming voted for him over the other candidates are in the dark about his past.

But claiming he is "just as corrupt" as a man who has stolen billions and is wanted by several countries on serious laundering charges is perhaps a bit over the top

We'll see how he performs - he'll certainly be under a lot of scrutiny, and he's in a very un-enviable position of trying to right a wrecked economy in one of the most corrupt countries in the world, even more so than their powerful neighbour who appear to be doing everything in their power to destabilise Ukraine

Ukrainians have had to sit there and watch neighbours like Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, even Romania grow at an almost exponential rate - while they have remained relatively one of the worst performing countries in the region, and that includes an effing dictatorship next door - they've had close ties with Russia for 20 years and it's led to little or no growth, they want to try Europe

Apparently doing so is some sort of crime under Russia's eyes whom appear to view Ukraine as a restless province to be punitively punished rather than the sovereign country which they are

The people of Ukraine have democratically chosen a man who is choosing to do more business with the "West". They are an independent country and it's clearly their right to do so.

Wasn't his buddy no... And isn't corrupt no... (From Wikipedia)

Poroshenko first won a seat in the Verkhovna Rada (the Ukrainian Parliament) in 1998. He was initially a member of the United Social Democratic Party of Ukraine (SDPU), the party loyal to president Leonid Kuchma at the time.[4] Poroshenko left SDPU(o) in 2000 to create an independent left-of-center faction, naming it Solidarity.[4][20] In 2001 Poroshenko was instrumental in creating the Party of Regions, also loyal to Kuchma, but Solidarity never joined it.[21] However, in December 2001 he broke ranks with Kuchma supporters to become campaign chief of Viktor Yushchenko's Our Ukraine Bloc opposition faction. After parliamentary elections in March 2002 in which Our Ukraine won the biggest share of the popular vote and Poroshenko won a seat in parliament,[4][22] Poroshenko served as head of the parliamentary budget committee, where he was accused of "misplacing 47 million hryvnias" (USD$ 8.9 million).[23] As a consequence of Porohenko's Our Ukraine Bloc membership tax inspectors launched an attack on his business.[4] Despite great difficulties, UkrPromInvest managed to survive until Yushchenko became President of Ukraine in 2005.[4]

Poroshenko was considered a close confidant of Yushchenko, who is godfather to Poroshenko's daughters. Poroshenko was likely to have been the wealthiest businessman among Yushchenko supporters, and was often named as one of the main financial backers of Our Ukraine and the Orange Revolution.[24] After Yushchenko won the presidential elections in 2004, Poroshenko was appointed Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council.[4][15]

In September 2005, highly publicized mutual allegations of corruption erupted between Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko involving the privatizations of state-owned firms. Poroshenko, for example, was accused of defending the interests of Viktor Pinchuk, who had acquired state firm Nikopol Ferroalloy for $80 million, independently valued at $1 billion.[25] In response to the allegations, Yushchenko dismissed his entire cabinet of ministers, including Poroshenko and Tymoshenko.[26] State prosecutors dismissed an abuse of power investigation against Poroshenko the following month,[27] immediately after Yushchenko dismissed Svyatoslav Piskun, General Prosecutor of Ukraine. Piskun claimed that he was sacked because he refused to institute criminal proceedings against Tymoshenko and refused to drop proceedings against Poroshenko.[28]

gandalf

Another interesting piece on the Presidential election in the Ukraine on Aljazeera.

I found this section very telling. Not only were the Russians building up the far right in the Ukraine as the "boogeyman", the then president Viktor Yanukovich's people were building them up as his main opponent for the Presidential elections in 2015.

The regular presidential elections in Ukraine were scheduled for March 2015, and there were little doubts that President Viktor Yanukovich was going to stay in office for a second term. With his main opponent Yulia Tymoshenko behind bars, the charismatic boxer Vitali Klitschko seemed to be the only hope of the pro-Western voters.

At the same time, the president's PR-specialists deliberately promoted the leader of the radical nationalist "Svoboda" party, Oleh Tyahnybok, who would have been the most convenient opponent for Yanukovich in the second round of elections. In other words, the usual "West vs East" game was the most probable scenario for the 2015 presidential elections.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/06/ukraine-elections-donbas-201461201423909163.html

Some very interesting insights into the actual election last month. It seems that his election was the same even in the regions of the East that could actually vote.

More surprisingly, Poroshenko emerged as the number one in all regions of Ukraine (including the few electoral districts in Donetsk and Luhansk where elections could take place). The absence of the traditional East-West polarisation is a real sensation for Ukrainian politics - this time, the electoral map of the country is covered by one single colour.

robindch

gandalf wrote: »

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-vs-russia-mafia-state--2014512164523249486.html

Being intimately linked to Russia at many different levels, a successful, democratic and tolerant Ukraine threatens the existence of the mafia state and that's what is at stake for the Kremlin rulers.

That, and the fact that Putin wishes it to be known that he's willing to murder and destabilize all around him to stop any potential Moscow Maidan.

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

That, and the fact that Putin wishes it to be known that he's willing to murder and destabilize all around him to stop any potential Moscow Maidan.

Source for the "quote" of Putin saying he is willing to "murder" and destabilise"...??????
Unless it's hearsay or just your opinion of course

jimeryan22

robindch wrote: »

Getting back to this thread a little late, and I suspect it's pointless to do so, but you seem entirely unaware that (a) Russia invaded Crimea and (b) the Duma has passed legislation "permitting" the Russian army to invade mainland Ukraine and (c) the Russian border with Ukraine seems unusually porous to hundreds of heavily armed militants - something quite odd in a country with Russia's reputation for blocking easy travel in and out of the country.

Again... Depends from which hymn sheet you are reading from... Crimea seems very happy with their occupation considering what's going on in Ukraine..
The Dumas legislation was about as legal as murder...
So as I said before.. Try and change facts as you's are.. Russia did not start the civil war in Ukraine like you inmply but the US state department nuland cronies... Fact as we really all know now.. Except the forgetful lot.. And Russia also never threatened anybody at the start.. Just retaliatory measures to sanctions etc. As the west gangs up

Oh and there's also that little thing of the US Vice Presidents son hunter getting the CEO job of the biggest power company in the country.. And he's just been joined by oh, john Kerry's nephew also..!! No conflict of interest there at all... I mean. These were the only 2 candidates world wide of 7 billion people.. Haha. Yeah right

Lockstep

You really don't like the US, do you?

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Again... Depends from which hymn sheet you are reading from... Crimea seems very happy with their occupation considering what's going on in Ukraine..

According to the UN there are serious problems especially for the Tartar minority.

"The report highlights a number of other emerging problems in Crimea, especially in relation to the Crimean Tatars and minorities, including alarming developments surrounding the issue of citizenship; the freedom of movement of their leaders; cases of physical harassment; restrictions on Crimean Tatar media; and fears of religious persecution of those who are practising Muslims. Already, more than 7,200 people from Crimea – mostly Tartars – have become internally displaced in other areas of Ukraine. "

That sounds an awful lot like the reasons that Putin gave for the annexation of the Crimea and yet here the Russians seem to be hypocritically practicing the same tactics on the local population.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47809#.U48tHHaPOjY

The Dumas legislation was about as legal as murder...
So as I said before.. Try and change facts as you's are.. Russia did not start the civil war in Ukraine like you inmply but the US state department nuland cronies... Fact as we really all know now.. Except the forgetful lot.. And Russia also never threatened anybody at the start.. Just retaliatory measures to sanctions etc. As the west gangs up

What cronies, here you go again with your theories. Russia is directly involved in this conflict, the US and the EU are not. Here is another article from todays Spiegel.

"After months of obfuscation, Russia's direct involvement in eastern Ukraine is becoming visible. And last week, it became clearer than ever that Russian and Chechen mercenaries are supporting the separatists in Donetsk, fighting side-by-side with Ukrainians against troops sent by Kiev. At first, the presence of Russian fighters was but a rumor, but then, last Thursday, a column of vehicles carrying 34 coffins draped with red cloth left Donetsk heading for the border. Two-thirds of the some 50 rebels who died in heavy fighting 10 days ago were Russian citizens.

Some of the fighters in Donetsk openly told journalists that they came "on the orders of Kadyrov." The Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov would only say on his Instagram page: "If any Chechen has been seen in the conflict zone, that's his personal business." "

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/fighting-intensifies-in-eastern-ukraine-as-kiev-advances-a-973304.html

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

You really don't like the US, do you?

Yawwwnnn...!!!!!
So far off mark. But. Whatever you think ...

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

According to the UN there are serious problems especially for the Tartar minority.

"The report highlights a number of other emerging problems in Crimea, especially in relation to the Crimean Tatars and minorities, including alarming developments surrounding the issue of citizenship; the freedom of movement of their leaders; cases of physical harassment; restrictions on Crimean Tatar media; and fears of religious persecution of those who are practising Muslims. Already, more than 7,200 people from Crimea – mostly Tartars – have become internally displaced in other areas of Ukraine. "

That sounds an awful lot like the reasons that Putin gave for the annexation of the Crimea and yet here the Russians seem to be hypocritically practicing the same tactics on the local population.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47809#.U48tHHaPOjY



What cronies, here you go again with your theories. Russia is directly involved in this conflict, the US and the EU are not. Here is another article from todays Spiegel.

"After months of obfuscation, Russia's direct involvement in eastern Ukraine is becoming visible. And last week, it became clearer than ever that Russian and Chechen mercenaries are supporting the separatists in Donetsk, fighting side-by-side with Ukrainians against troops sent by Kiev. At first, the presence of Russian fighters was but a rumor, but then, last Thursday, a column of vehicles carrying 34 coffins draped with red cloth left Donetsk heading for the border. Two-thirds of the some 50 rebels who died in heavy fighting 10 days ago were Russian citizens.

Some of the fighters in Donetsk openly told journalists that they came "on the orders of Kadyrov." The Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov would only say on his Instagram page: "If any Chechen has been seen in the conflict zone, that's his personal business." "

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/fighting-intensifies-in-eastern-ukraine-as-kiev-advances-a-973304.html

Keep denying us state departments role... I've come to expect it from you

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Keep denying us state departments role... I've come to expect it from you

No direct boots on the ground. You keep denying that Russia is an active participant in the events in eastern Ukraine despite me and other posting numerous articles from numerous sources showing this.

All I see coming from you is the same NGO link which proves nothing except funding for political purposes. Hardly a smoking gun now is it.

You said that Crimea is happy. I have just shown that the UN have stated that a large minority is being oppressed since the Russians criminally invaded that part of the Ukraine. Do you think that this is right, especially given the reasons for the Russian illegal annexation of the Territory being the protection of the Russian minority in the Ukraine?

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

No direct boots on the ground. You keep denying that Russia is an active participant in the events in eastern Ukraine despite me and other posting numerous articles from numerous sources showing this.

All I see coming from you is the same NGO link which proves nothing except funding for political purposes. Hardly a smoking gun now is it.

You said that Crimea is happy. I have just shown that the UN have stated that a large minority is being oppressed since the Russians criminally invaded that part of the Ukraine. Do you think that this is right, especially given the reasons for the Russian illegal annexation of the Territory being the protection of the Russian minority in the Ukraine?

Your reasoning is skewed... No boots on the ground means that US has nothing to do with what's happend does it..? Also. Show me please a quote from any of my posts saying Russia has NOTHING to do with this.... I've said numerously that they didn't start it alright, not that they've had no part to play... So.....
The NGO link is from the endowment for democracy (American)

As for the tartars bit.. That's from what a month ago..? And was a small minority (no I'm not saying the pursicution is ok) but.. it's hardly comparable to the civil war going on in Ukraine... Now is it.. None of tartars have been burned alive, shot, blown up with rockets... Etc

DubVelo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

None of tartars have been burned alive, shot, blown up with rockets... Etc

No Tatars attempted a violent armed insurrection.

jimeryan22

DubVelo wrote: »

No Tatars attempted a violent armed insurrection.

What you've just stated changes nothing I've said.... Pretty pointless throw away remark that is was

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

You're seem to be implying that its the US and EU's fault that this situation exists. The country outside the Ukraine that is most responsible for this mess is Russia and thank you I take this statement as your admission of this.

You're probably right, they should NEVER have put their country so close to NATO bases endangering world peace!



(this probably is more suited to After Hours but the Ukraine thread there seems to be defunct now - sorry)

jimeryan22

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You're probably right, they should NEVER have put their country so close to NATO bases endangering world peace!



(this probably is more suited to After Hours but the Ukraine thread there seems to be defunct now - sorry)

Don't forget.. After yesterday's dealings, there'll be a few more...

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27671691

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You're probably right, they should NEVER have put their country so close to NATO bases endangering world peace!

(this probably is more suited to After Hours but the Ukraine thread there seems to be defunct now - sorry)

Given Russias behaviour in past and now is it any wonder that the former satellite states are joining an organisation for their own protection.

I do realise that Russia feels it is being surrounded but it doesn't justify its meddling in neighbouring countries as it is with the Ukraine. If anything it is probably driving the Ukraine to possibly joining NATO as well.

Straight question Elmer do you believe this justifies Russias behaviour over the last few months?

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Your reasoning is skewed... No boots on the ground means that US has nothing to do with what's happend does it..? Also. Show me please a quote from any of my posts saying Russia has NOTHING to do with this.... I've said numerously that they didn't start it alright, not that they've had no part to play... So.....
The NGO link is from the endowment for democracy (American)

No you just avoid answering the question with misdirection and one link about NGO funding.

As for not starting it I disagree, it was their sponsoring of the corrupt former President that kicked off this current mess.

As for the tartars bit.. That's from what a month ago..?

Sorry didn't realise that persecution had a time limit. I have a feeling if it was going on a month ago its still occurring today.

And was a small minority (no I'm not saying the pursicution is ok) but.. it's hardly comparable to the civil war going on in Ukraine... Now is it.. None of tartars have been burned alive, shot, blown up with rockets... Etc

What Civil War, it appears that the driving forces in this Pro-Russian insurrection are Russians themselves. Out of the 50 killed in the clash at the airport 37 coffins were shipped across the Russian border. This is not a civil war it is a war by proxy from the Kremlin.

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

Given Russias behaviour in past and now is it any wonder that the former satellite states are joining an organisation for their own protection.

I do realise that Russia feels it is being surrounded but it doesn't justify its meddling in neighbouring countries as it is with the Ukraine. If anything it is probably driving the Ukraine to possibly joining NATO as well.

Straight question Elmer do you believe this justifies Russias behaviour over the last few months?

Analogy time... So if Russia had in the last few years and months started surrounding the US with bases on their doorstep, like say, Cuba... Again.. We all forget that one.. Venezuela, or some similar Southern American country, and giving them millions, sorry billions in money to arm, I mean protect themselves.. You don't think they would be up in arms about it and ready to invade at the drop of a hat...??
Also question for you gandalf... Do you think the US's and EU's handling of this whole situation had been a good one.. ..?

jimeryan22

gandalf wrote: »

No you just avoid answering the question with misdirection and one link about NGO funding.

As for not starting it I disagree, it was their sponsoring of the corrupt former President that kicked off this current mess.



Sorry didn't realise that persecution had a time limit. I have a feeling if it was going on a month ago its still occurring today.



What Civil War, it appears that the driving forces in this Pro-Russian insurrection are Russians themselves. Out of the 50 killed in the clash at the airport 37 coffins were shipped across the Russian border. This is not a civil war it is a war by proxy from the Kremlin.

Now you really are just talking ****...

gandalf

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Analogy time... So if Russia had in the last few years and months started surrounding the US with bases on their doorstep, like say, Cuba... Again.. We all forget that one.. Venezuela, or some similar Southern American country, and giving them millions, sorry billions in money to arm, I mean protect themselves.. You don't think they would be up in arms about it and ready to invade at the drop of a hat...??

So are you saying that this justifies Russia invading parts of the Ukraine?

It does appear to be you justifying Putins actions?

Do you agree with the illegal Annexation of the Crimea?

Do you agree with Russia allowing mercenaries to pour over her border into another country with the aim of destablising the government of that country?

From you comments it appears you do

Also question for you gandalf... Do you think the US's and EU's handling of this whole situation had been a good one.. ..?

No it hasn't. They haven't been tough enough with Russia. Aggressive Dictators like Putin need to be faced down. The West dropped the ball with South Ossetia in 2008 and now the Ukraine is paying the price.

KindOfIrish

gandalf wrote: »

What Civil War, it appears that the driving forces in this Pro-Russian insurrection are Russians themselves. Out of the 50 killed in the clash at the airport 37 coffins were shipped across the Russian border. This is not a civil war it is a war by proxy from the Kremlin.

It's a new, 21st century, type of war. No official war declaration, soldiers in unmarked uniform, massive worldwide propaganda campaign.

Scofflaw

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Now you really are just talking ****...

And there's the three day ban for continued incivility and soapboxing. I expect the usual abusive PM asap.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Given Russias behaviour in past and now is it any wonder that the former satellite states are joining an organisation for their own protection.

I do realise that Russia feels it is being surrounded but it doesn't justify its meddling in neighbouring countries as it is with the Ukraine. If anything it is probably driving the Ukraine to possibly joining NATO as well.

Straight question Elmer do you believe this justifies Russias behaviour over the last few months?

I'll just repeat what I said yesterday, the Provisional IRA waged a campaign for 30 odd years from the Republic, this doesn't mean that any Dublin government supported or organized this campaign, there may be weapons smuggled into eastern Ukraine by sympathisers in Russia but theres no proof that the Kremlin is orchestrating the campaign.
A few weeks ago the propaganda was that a Russian invasion of Ukraine was imminent followed by the Baltic states, then eastern Europe...... oh I forgot to mention Transistria!! (who makes up this propaganda )
Where the hell is Transistria anyway?

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Where the hell is Transistria anyway?

It's another Russian-sponsored "frozen conflict" zone, a part of Moldova, squeezed in between Moldova and Ukraine. And it's spelled "Transnistria".

I've been there. It's a weird, weird, weird Soviet-tribute theme park.

The largest company in the zone is owned by Igor Smirnov, a former president, and it's called - Sheriff. So all the department stores, all the petrol stations, a tv station, construction company, food factories, mobile phone network, they're all named "Sheriff".

A splendid name to use in a semi-police state.

robindch

KindOfIrish wrote: »

[...] massive worldwide propaganda campaign [...]

Some of the details of which have, apparently, been uncovered:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

comongethappy

robindch wrote: »

Some of the details of which have, apparently, been uncovered:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

Just look at the Guardian as an example.

A big UK story will have comments in the hundreds. If its about Ukraine, the comments run to thousands.

vadzen

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You're probably right, they should NEVER have put their country so close to NATO bases endangering world peace! (this probably is more suited to After Hours but the Ukraine thread there seems to be defunct now - sorry)

Where is USA military base in Ulyanovsk, Russia on map?

vadzen

You would not see this on BBC.
Ukranian naci force shoot ambulance
youtu.be/DbP2aLDKJl0?t=1m12s
You could hear how civil people hate them.

KindOfIrish

vadzen wrote: »

You would not see this on BBC.
Ukranian naci force shoot ambulance
youtu.be/DbP2aLDKJl0?t=1m12s
You could hear how civil people hate them.

vadzen, idi na xui otsuda.