Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

vadzen

Where is weapon and ammo from in Novorossia?

Novorossia self-defense forces have surrounded military base 2 days. Ukrainian army base officers run away during the night. Ukrainian troops surrendered after 2 days.
Novorossia self-defense forces captured military border base with weapon and ammo.
youtube.com/watch?v=GYPNpOZhEKk

gandalf

I assume when you say "Novorossia self-defense forces" you mean Chechen and Cossack Mercenaries.

Elmer Blooker

Lockstep wrote: »

You really don't like the US, do you?

That's really flogging a dead horse at this stage don't you think?
Obama's war mongering sabre rattling speech in Poland today really reminded me of Ronald Reagan's similar war mongering 30 years ago. Then, in the 80s he and Thatcher were convincing the world that the "evil empire"/Soviet Union were the enemy to justify a crazy arms race $$$$$ (remember? Greenham Common, Star Wars) Of course it was all lies, the Soviet Union was on its last legs, falling apart and losing a war in Afghanistan and were far from being a threat to world peace. Nothing has changed - Obama as president of the USA is representing the interests of the Military-Industrial Complex just as Reagan did and an arms race is good for business!
PS. I would recommend this "anti-American" book written by an American who served in the USAAF during WW2.http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

Jonny7

comongethappy wrote: »

Just look at the Guardian as an example.

A big UK story will have comments in the hundreds. If its about Ukraine, the comments run to thousands.

Guardian was receiving up to 40,000 comments per day, they've little doubt the source
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

The "Nashi" pro-Kremlin group
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/07/nashi-emails-insight-kremlin-groups-priorities

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

That's really flogging a dead horse at this stage don't you think?

Not really.

Have you ever thought about why you hate America so much?

Most people would find holding such visceral hate in their hearts exhausting!

aloyisious

@Vadzen.... By Novorossia, do you mean the same land mentioned by V Putin in this article, or the union mentioned in the 2nd address below?

1... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fpri.org%2Farticles%2F2014%2F05%2Fputins-greater-novorossiya-dismemberment-ukraine&ei=uYOPU6C8NozN7AbOg4DIAw&usg=AFQjCNEX1qgoSzPJqVip2HZqQDUJ7nHDMA

2... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEkQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Fnews%2F161304-donetsk-lugansk-unite-state%2F&ei=uYOPU6C8NozN7AbOg4DIAw&usg=AFQjCNGsIq7n0OjTFA6ET4Rj2NiJrIysBg

vadzen

Novorossia self-defense force let the surrendered Ukrainian soldiers of the border military unit in Lugansk go home
youtube.com/watch?v=QILRuiZ0U3s

Novorossia: Union of independent republics (Lugansk, Doneck areas today)
Official site: novorossia.su/official

Who knows country with Scotland name?
Scottish independence referendum, 2014
wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014
Let's rock. We may be would see Eire + Scotland union with Gaelic as main language. We will see.

You would not see this on BBC and CNN.

gandalf

Hmm this is the same "Republic" that has Russian citizens in a lot of its leadership roles and has a large number of Chechen and Cossack Mercenaries fighting for it. Independent is definitely a false description. Puppet would be much more apt description.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Hmm this is the same "Republic" that has Russian citizens in a lot of its leadership roles and has a large number of Chechen and Cossack Mercenaries fighting for it. Independent is definitely a false description. Puppet would be much more apt description.

Any proof? Putin was asked "tricky" questions by French media (how I'd love to see Obama asked "tricky" questions by Russian media but its never going to happen, only a fawning grovelling media are allowed access to him)
I might as well put up the link though I doubt any of you will get past the first sentence! http://rt.com/news/163676-putin-ukraine-french-us/
heres a quote from it:

“There are basically no Russian troops abroad while US troops are everywhere. There are US military bases everywhere around the world and they are always involved in the fates of other countries, even though they are thousands of kilometers away from US borders.”

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Any proof? Putin was asked "tricky" questions by French media (how I'd love to see Obama asked "tricky" questions by Russian media but its never going to happen, only a fawning grovelling media are allowed access to him)
I might as well put up the link though I doubt any of you will get past the first sentence! http://rt.com/news/163676-putin-ukraine-french-us/
heres a quote from it:

I posted the proof earlier in the thread along with the names of these so called leaders. Articles about the Mercenaries were also posted then. Go back a few pages you'll find them.

Oh please Elmer you quoting RT should be taken as seriously as someone quoting Fox News.

As for the snippet you quoted that is a blatant lie from RT and Putin (not the first or last time I suspect they will spew falsehoods). There are plenty of Russian troops abroad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_military_bases_abroad

"Russia has several military bases in foreign countries, especially on the territory of the former Soviet Republics. Other significant bases exist in Armenia, Tajikistan, Georgia (In the disputed regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia)."

http://www.biyokulule.com/view_content.php?articleid=4840

Oh and don't forget that there are tens of thousands of Russian military and paramilitary personal illegally occupying the Ukrainian territory of Crimea as well

Russian advisors "helping" in Syria as well.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/23/syria-crisis-russian-military-presence

aloyisious

I had to laugh at the quote “There are basically no Russian troops abroad while US troops are everywhere. There are US military bases everywhere around the world and they are always involved in the fates of other countries, even though they are thousands of kilometers away from US borders.” seeing as how when the news broke about Crimea on our TV news there were regular reports on how the Russian Black Sea Fleet was blocking Ukrainian Navy ships in Sevastopol and minesweepers were deployed to ensure no minelaying took place, the port of Sevastopol being an essential location for the fleet. It was also reported that the newly appointed Ukrainian Navy Chief had changed sides and was appointed to a position in the Russian Navy. Then again, I suppose technically Sailors are NOT Troops and as Crimea had been "assimilated", the sailors were no longer abroad when the interview including the quote was recorded.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

I posted the proof earlier in the thread along with the names of these so called leaders. Articles about the Mercenaries were also posted then. Go back a few pages you'll find them.

Oh please Elmer you quoting RT should be taken as seriously as someone quoting Fox News.

As for the snippet you quoted that is a blatant lie from RT and Putin (not the first or last time I suspect they will spew falsehoods). There are plenty of Russian troops abroad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_military_bases_abroad

"Russia has several military bases in foreign countries, especially on the territory of the former Soviet Republics. Other significant bases exist in Armenia, Tajikistan, Georgia (In the disputed regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia)."

http://www.biyokulule.com/view_content.php?articleid=4840

Oh and don't forget that there are tens of thousands of Russian military and paramilitary personal illegally occupying the Ukrainian territory of Crimea as well

Russian advisors "helping" in Syria as well.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/23/syria-crisis-russian-military-presence

Mercenaries? Since mercenaries are paid perhaps you can let us in on the secret about how much these mercenaries are being paid and who's paying them.
I never "quoted" RT, I just pointed out that Putin was interviewed by the French media. I was making a point that I would love to see Obama face some difficult questions but that's not allowed, his interviewers are carefully chosen - its called censorship western style, so insidious and subtle it goes unnoticed.

Where are you getting your information about "significant" bases? Fox News? Tadjikistan is more or less a NATO member.

Russian border troops were stationed along the Tajik-Afghan border until summer 2005. Since the September 11, 2001 attacks, French troops have been stationed at the Dushanbe Airport in support of air operations of NATO's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan. United States Army and Marine Corps personnel periodically visit Tajikistan to conduct joint training missions of up to several weeks duration.

If I was a woman in (secular) Syria or had daughters I think I'd prefer if Assad remained in power. What's the alternative? Western backed "freedom" fighters burning down girl's schools?

Jonny7

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

If I was a woman in (secular) Syria or had daughters I think I'd prefer if Assad remained in power. What's the alternative? Western backed "freedom" fighters burning down girl's schools?

The alternative was a democracy, however Assad and his family wasn't interested in losing power

The original rebels were secularist and openly supported democratic reforms in the country

The "West" doesn't back the more extreme foreign jihadists and fundamentalists who have hijacked the conflict for their own sectarian/religious reasons

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I never "quoted" RT, I just pointed out that Putin was interviewed by the French media. I was making a point that I would love to see Obama face some difficult questions but that's not allowed, his interviewers are carefully chosen - its called censorship western style, so insidious and subtle it goes unnoticed.

You did put up a link to a RT article and you quoted from it?

Where are you getting your information about "significant" bases? Fox News? Tadjikistan is more or less a NATO member.

The link is in my post :rolleyes:

If I was a woman in (secular) Syria or had daughters I think I'd prefer if Assad remained in power. What's the alternative? Western backed "freedom" fighters burning down girl's schools?

As others have said the opposition forces in Syria cover quite a variety of goals. Some would be considered more liberal and others would be extremists. I am not aware of the West intentionally providing assistance to the extremist factions, if anything they are attempting to stop assistance getting to them because they know that it will come back and bite them locally in the long run.

If I was someone in Syria I would prefer a Government that respected human rights, who didn't use Chemical Weapons or Barrel bombs on civilians.

Its funny Elmer on one hand your complaining about an "evil" government who are killing civilians in their suppression of an armed insurrection that is sponsored by a larger state yet seem to be supporting a Government in a different country that have carried out far worse atrocities putting down an insurrection and the only reason I can see for this is to fuel your obvious issues with the US.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Its funny Elmer on one hand your complaining about an "evil" government who are killing civilians in their suppression of an armed insurrection that is sponsored by a larger state yet seem to be supporting a Government in a different country that have carried out far worse atrocities putting down an insurrection and the only reason I can see for this is to fuel your obvious issues with the US.

My main point about the RT article was that I would like to see Obama getting interviewed by a journalist who isn't a sycophant. How I'd love to see Obama interviewed by Robert Fisk but it will never happen - not in a million years!
"Supporting a government" - that's nonsense! You're deliberately twisting things around. I'm fully aware of what these hardman dictators and their secret police are capable of. We know nothing about the sectarian divisions in Syria (Alawites, Shias, Sunnis) If Assad broke off relations with Russia and Iran tomorrow and became pro Israel he would very quickly become the "good" guy.
Is it allowed to be critical of US foreign policy or "obvious issues" as you prefer to call it

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

My main point about the RT article was that I would like to see Obama getting interviewed by a journalist who isn't a sycophant. How I'd love to see Obama interviewed by Robert Fisk but it will never happen - not in a million years!

I know I was just nit picking

I'd love a lot of the so-called leaders to be interviewed like that. Fisk or Chomsky vs Obama would be a good spectacle. I'd love to see Kenny face a proper interviewer like Paxman as well.

"Supporting a government" - that's nonsense! You're deliberately twisting things around. I'm fully aware of what these hardman dictators and their secret police are capable of. We know nothing about the sectarian divisions in Syria (Alawites, Shias, Sunnis) If Assad broke off relations with Russia and Iran tomorrow and became pro Israel he would very quickly become the "good" guy.
Is it allowed to be critical of US foreign policy or "obvious issues" as you prefer to call it

Sorry again from your posts I just got the feeling that anything that opposes the US seems to be ok.

If Assad jumped into bed with Israel in the morning I would still condemn him as the man who gassed and poisoned his own people and dropped barrel bombs indiscriminately on civilians. To be honest I don't have any love for the state of Israel and its treatment of the Palestinian people.

This topic is about the crisis in the Ukraine and in reality from my perspective this crisis only exists because the Ukrainian people decided that the man in power Yanukovich had to go when it became obvious that he was a puppet of Putin.

The Russian reaction to this has been predicable, especially when the west didn't stand up to Putin in Georgia in 2008.

This article below I think hits the nail on the head about the real motivations of Putin and his oligarch sponsors in Russia. (I have to say Aljazeera have really impressed me with the quality and variety of content that they have).

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-vs-russia-mafia-state--2014512164523249486.html

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

I know I was just nit picking

The Russian reaction to this has been predicable, especially when the west didn't stand up to Putin in Georgia in 2008.

This article below I think hits the nail on the head about the real motivations of Putin and his oligarch sponsors in Russia. (I have to say Aljazeera have really impressed me with the quality and variety of content that they have).

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/05/ukraine-vs-russia-mafia-state--2014512164523249486.html

In Russia those who want to make money are called mafia, here in the west we are more cunning and call them businessmen! :rolleyes:
I don't know if I can take that Aljazeera article seriously, it just seems a bit sensationalist for my liking and the attractive blonde may or may not be a middle class Russian?
I wonder why we are not being told about the industrial importance of eastern Ukraine and what it means to Russia. Does anyone serious think they should just hand it over to western business interests?

Besides these symbolic justifications, there is one very tangible reason: Numerous companies in eastern Ukraine provide important raw materials and products to Russia - especially for the Russian space and defense industries.
The western world barely noticed the news in March that the transitional government in Kyiv was suspending military cooperation with Russia. But that didn't make it any less explosive. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, who is also responsible for the defense industry, spoke up immediately, saying Russia had to make a greater effort to become independent from foreign technology and supplies.
But that might not be so easy: Twelve types of Russian intercontinental ballistic missiles, along with spare parts and maintenance, come from the eastern Ukrainian city of Dnipropetrovsk alone. In the Donbas, a special steel is produced for the tanks of the Russian armed forces, and most Russian combat helicopters fly with engines from Zaporizhia.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

your obvious issues with the US.

Understatement!

gandalf

Yes but Russia do not own those resources, they are the resources of the sovereign country of Ukraine. Russia shouldn't decide who the Ukraine does business with now should it. It they were short sighted to put all their eggs in one basket whose fault is that.

I hope you're not suggesting that this justifies the illegal annexation of Crimea and the proxy war being waged by them in Eastern Ukraine.

Scofflaw

vadzen, we don't allow "discussion by Youtube" on the forum. Too many of your posts are nothing but a one-liner and a Youtube link. In future these will be deleted, and you will be infracted.

moderately,
Scofflaw

vadzen

HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE develops on East Ukraine, but we are so far from it.
Bulgaria’s prime minister has ordered on Sunday a halt to construction work on the Gazprom-led South Stream pipeline project planned to bypass Ukraine as a transit country and consolidating Russia’s energy grip in Europe. We are so far and don't care.
Czech Republic airline stopped flights to Ukraine. Cabin crews are without job.
Is EU economic so strong to handle gas price jump?
The Ukrainian revolution paid by USA and supported by EU bureaucrats. One of USA target is to push EU as competitor down. It is their primitive solution for internal crisis. If EU had energy crisis, UK had busy with Scotland independence USA would have better chances.
USA plays with huge fire in Europe, not in North America.

P.S. Who has access to EU documents please read document 237/94-bp 10 October 1994 and find how much EU promised to "help" Ukraine to join EU. Short document published on Ukrainian government web site zakon4.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/237/94-%D0%B2%D1%80

vadzen

Kiev military forces use phosphorous bombs agains towns Slavyansk and Semyonovka. This is happening in Europe. War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity are not applicable of statutory limitations.

Lemming

vadzen wrote: »

Kiev military forces use phosphorous bombs agains towns Slavyansk and Semyonovka. This is happening in Europe. War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity are not applicable of statutory limitations.

The use of WP* munitions does not, in itself, constitute a war crime. It's all in how WP is used. So less of the hyerbole please and more of the facts if you don't mind.


* White Phosphorous

comongethappy

Transport plane shot down in the east.

49 dead apparently.

Jonny7

This is getting ridiculous - these are not some ragtag bunch of hardliners from the local pubs carrying AK47's - they appear to have taken down more aircraft in 3 months than 10's of thousands of very experienced rebels and jihadists have taken down in 3 years in Syria

They even have tanks

This aircraft with 50 personnel on board will prob be last straw for Ukrainian military

comongethappy

Jonny7 wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous - these are not some ragtag bunch of hardliners from the local pubs carrying AK47's - they appear to have taken down more aircraft in 3 months than 10's of thousands of very experienced rebels and jihadists have taken down in 3 years in Syria

They even have tanks

This aircraft with 50 personnel on board will prob be last straw for Ukrainian military

Peaceful protestors, don't you know!

Retaliation would be a war crime.... Apparently.

vadzen

Lemming wrote: »

The use of WP* munitions does not, in itself, constitute a war crime. It's all in how WP is used. So less of the hyerbole please and more of the facts if you don't mind.
* White Phosphorous

Shelling of town Semyonovka by Ukranian army.
youtube.com/watch?v=yBHWFCIDBJU
Please compare with images from google "white phosphorus israel" and
youtube.com/watch?v=ynY-My59iV0

wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus

Nazi had not believed in Nurenberg trials in 1941...
Quote from Irish history 1916: "The British ship Huelga sailed up the Liffey River and began shelling the rebel headquarters. The shelling killed civilians, and Dublin began to burn."
Would you expect different reaction from Slavyansk and Semyonovka civilians?

Harold Weiss

I would argue the pinnacle of freedom for any citizen in the free world is the right to work, the right to choose and purchase consumer products, the right to complain or protest about the crap government without fear of being silenced, the right to be subjugated in exchange for happiness.

But the best part of being free is being able to buy a big mac with fries after watching a Hollywood production about our heroes overseas killing the bad guys.

aloyisious

These are reports in The Irish Examiner (1) about Gazprom cutting off the supply of gas to Ukraine (due to unpaid bills) -
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/russia-to-cut-off-gas-supply-to-ukraine-633543.html

and (2) the Uknrainian foreign Minister telling protestors at the Russian Embassy they can protest but should not burn the Russian flag. He also uses "unparliamentary" language in ref to President Putin. One part of the 2nd article mentions a Russian Parliamentarian saying a response should include cutting off the supply of gas.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/lsquoyes-putin-is-a-dickheadrsquo-says-ukraine-minister-272236.html

Eggy Baby!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10902271/Europe-faces-gas-shortage-as-Russia-cuts-Ukraine-supply-after-talks-fail.html

Kiev said it was ready to make a $1.95 billion (1.45 billion euro) payment demanded by Moscow if Russia agreed to cut its ongoing rate to $326 from $485.50 for 1,000 cubic metres of gas.
But Putin had insisted that $385 per 1,000 cubic metres was his final offer.
The European Commission said Oettinger had offered a compromise that would see Kiev pay $1 billion Monday and the rest of the debt in instalments stretching through the end of the year.
Oettinger also proposed that Ukraine accept the $385 figure demanded by Putin in the winter and see its rate drop to $300 “or a few dollars more” during summer months.
“The Ukrainian side was ready to accept this, but for the moment the Russian partners were not,” the European Commission said in a statement.
“The Russian side insisted on immediate payment of $1.9 billion, and an overall price of $385.”
The gas talks were further clouded by a new diplomatic row that exploded after Ukraine’s acting foreign minister called Putin “a prick” while trying to restrain protesters who attacked Moscow’s embassy compound in Kiev on Saturday.

Is the Ukrainian government totally inept? Trying to get a discount from the Russians at a time like this? Crazy stuff.