Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Jonny7

Well, the price has been raised by 80% in the last few months with Ukraine is in an extremely fragile economic position

vadzen

Independent British journalist opinion on Ukrainian official TV with subtitles:
The British journalist tells the truth on Ukranian TV: who really fights on Donbas.
youtube.com/watch?v=Yq8kc4izDrQ

Ukrainian gas pipe was broken down in Poltava area accidentally, unfortunately and unpredictably next day after Gazprom stopped gas delivery to Ukraine.
youtube.com/watch?v=lXRV9Cev3GM

Generals Cold and Freezing are waiting for EU visit.

Eggy Baby!

Jonny7 wrote: »

Well, the price has been raised by 80% in the last few months with Ukraine is in an extremely fragile economic position

The Russians are suggesting that the Ukrainians pay the European rate for their gas, as opposed to the heavily discounted prices they've been getting till now. Even if the price for Ukraine has increased by 80%, that's still a huge discount vis a vis the rest of Europe.

Iwasfrozen

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The Russians are suggesting that the Ukrainians pay the European rate for their gas, as opposed to the heavily discounted prices they've been getting till now. Even if the price for Ukraine has increased by 80%, that's still a huge discount vis a vis the rest of Europe.

Good, that will help lessen Ukraine's reliance on Russia.

Jonny7

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The Russians are suggesting that the Ukrainians pay the European rate for their gas, as opposed to the heavily discounted prices they've been getting till now. Even if the price for Ukraine has increased by 80%, that's still a huge discount vis a vis the rest of Europe.

It's a political, punitive move by Moscow to punish Ukraine

It's also bad for business, Europe is now scrambling to diversify gas imports.

Eggy Baby!

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's a political, punitive move by Moscow to punish Ukraine

Are you suggesting that Moscow exonerate Kiev's debt?

It's also bad for business, Europe is now scrambling to diversify gas imports.

I doubt Russia minds, considering their recent huge deal with the Chinese. Even then, what will Europe turn to? Fracking?

On the subject of fracking, Anders Fogh Rasmussen has bizarrely claimed that Russia is "mounting a disinformation campaign to maintain reliance on Russian gas": http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato), and former premier of Denmark, told the Chatham House thinktank in London on Thursday that Vladimir Putin’s government was behind attempts to discredit fracking, according to reports.

Rasmussen said: “I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organisations - environmental organisations working against shale gas - to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas.”

He declined to give details of those operations, saying: “That is my interpretation.”

Next they'll be telling us the Russians are putting flouride in the water.

Jonny7

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Moscow exonerate Kiev's debt?

Not in the slightest

Ukraine is in a fragile economic state, has just undergone a revolution to remove a severe klepocrat, is experiencing armed insurrection in the East, has been illegally pushed out of autonomous territory in the South

To call in debts and increase the price of gas by 80% is a punitive message from Moscow

That message is very clear to the other regional countries, whom are incidentally not recalling debts and are offering reverse flows in order to help rather than punish Ukraine

I doubt Russia minds, considering their recent huge deal with the Chinese. Even then, what will Europe turn to? Fracking?

I have no problem with the Russians selling gas, it's great for their economy.
However European countries do have a problem with the evident politics of it and are moving forward to diversify

Europe gets 30% of it's gas from Russia, I presume that will drop in the future as other suppliers find the market more receptive to them and countries like Estonia, Finland and Lithuania (100% reliant on Russian gas) start the switch to LNG

comongethappy

Quid pro quo.

Russia could apply the value of the 6 frigates & 3 submarines the Russian army seized from Ukraine prior to its annexation of Crimea.

That would reduce the gas bill significantly.
Sub's, even old ones don't come cheap.

dnk

Jonny7 wrote: »

Ukraine is in a fragile economic state,

As usual since start. Any idea WHY ? heh

Jonny7 wrote: »

has just undergone a revolution to remove a severe klepocrat,

And put their owner instead. Poroshenko is a former minister and oligarch, Kolomojskij , Taruta are same.

Jonny7 wrote: »

is experiencing armed insurrection in the East

If you start to kill people by ethnic the rise is expected. Isn't it?

Jonny7 wrote: »

To call in debts and increase the price of gas by 80% is a punitive message from Moscow

Gas price is strictly by contract, no changes. Just removed discounts.

Lot of propaganda cliches...

Jonny7

dnk wrote: »

As usual since start. Any idea WHY ? heh

Yes Ukraine hasn't experienced much growth in the last 2 decades, the people are sick of the corruption, poor performance and unemployment - they wanted change

And put their owner instead. Poroshenko is a former minister and oligarch, Kolomojskij , Taruta are same.

They voted him in, if he starts stealing from the state koffers, money laundering and enriching relatives like Yanukovych did then I am sure the Ukrainian people will not tolerate it for long

If you start to kill people by ethnic the rise is expected. Isn't it?

The Ukrainian authorities have to deal with a sudden armed insurrection in the East - perhaps Russia can send advisors to help them deal with it as they have a lot of experience in this field of dealing with separatists

Lot of propaganda cliches

Russian media has been using a large amount of propaganda, that's because most of it is pretty much state-controlled. Donetsk residents who support the pro-Russian militia often express fears of the "facists and neo-nazi's" from Kiev

The far-right candidates barely struggled to get 2% between them in the national vote

The truth on the matter appears to be a hard pill for the Russian people to swallow, that's if and when they actually receive it

aloyisious

I'm not sure if this link will work. It has a photo-image of what it say's are two (2) Tanks (accompanied by three (3) APC's i manned by Pro-Russian Force Members in the Donetsk region. http://www.irishexaminer.com/gallery/

vadzen

Ukrainian army is relocated 300-mm "Smerch" MRLS to kill people and destroy cities in Novorossia. youtube.com/watch?v=vJifWskldqI
SMERCH MULTIPLE ROCKET LAUNCHER SYSTEM (MRLS)
(9K58) is designed to ensure battlefield MASS DESTRUCTION WEAPON delivery means and storage facilities, lightly armoured and armoured materiel, rocket launchers, artillery and mortar batteries
in firing positions, air/missile defence units in deployment areas, aircraft in airfields, helicopters in parking pads and landing zones, command and communication posts of troops control, engineer support facilities and fortifications, various components of military infrastructure.
300-mm "Smerch" MRL in action:
youtube.com/watch?v=tvntHazo6hE
Ukrainian army is using "Grad" against cities and vilages... Grad in action: youtube.com/watch?v=p-lGwyySrwY
Even german fascists did not destroyed their own cities...

comongethappy

vadzen wrote: »

in Novorossia.

Where?

Even german fascists did not destroyed their own cities...

Russian fascists are partial to a bit though
.

vadzen

comongethappy wrote: »

Where?

Npovorossia news web site: novorossia.su

comongethappy wrote: »

Russian fascists are partial to a bit though

Russian? Please provide mothers, grandmothers and grand-grandmothers names and surnames of top of Russian Federation politics, oligarchs, show men. Their are using Russian language only, even changed by them since 1917.
comongethappy, you forgot mention, that Putin destroyed civil apartments building in 1999 (wiki: Russian apartment bombings) with almost Rus people even 2(!) years before September 11, 2001. If Putin had started war against just small part G. Busk claimed war against "terrorist" in ALL world.
comongethappy, you forgot mention, that Putin killed almost Rus people in submarine "Kursk"...
One of russian anecdote: "mister Putin, you have won election, but almost nobody voted for you."
comongethappy, what common has Putin with Berel Lazar? Please google images "Putin Lazar" for more info.
P.S. Book "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" (Antony C. Sutton) is really actual nowadays as well.

dnk

Jonny7 wrote: »

Yes Ukraine hasn't experienced much growth in the last 2 decades, the people are sick of the corruption, poor performance and unemployment - they wanted change

That's why they change Janukovich to oligarch and former minister of economic Poroshenko. Is it a "change" ?

Jonny7 wrote: »

They voted him in, if he starts stealing from the state koffers, money laundering and enriching relatives like Yanukovych did then I am sure the Ukrainian people will not tolerate it for long

Aha they voted to person who already steal and laundered lot of money and continue do even more effective as a president. Nice

Jonny7 wrote: »

The Ukrainian authorities have to deal with a sudden armed insurrection in the East - perhaps Russia can send advisors to help them deal with it as they have a lot of experience in this field of dealing with separatists

Do you or anybody has an evidence?

Jonny7 wrote: »

Russian media has been using a large amount of propaganda, that's because most of it is pretty much state-controlled.

It's a lie. Again west propaganda cliche. Most of Russian media is even against government.

Jonny7 wrote: »

The far-right candidates barely struggled to get 2% between them in the national vote

Is Poroshenko who sponsor of "maidan" and "Right Sector" nazi left side?! (facepalm)
Anyway : 3rd place. Ljashko - 8,7%. One of clear nazi who created own army and personally do torture captured people.
2% heh!

Jonny7 wrote: »

The truth on the matter appears to be a hard pill for the Russian people to swallow, that's if and when they actually receive it

Totally opposite. West media like BBC permanently do propaganda. It's easy as west people trust them and never check information. As you see above, your all statements based on wrong information.
I see you agree that "increase gaz price for Ukraine" is a lie by propaganda.

I forecast that next west "veracity" media will say that Russia punish Ukraine by custom barriers. Truth is that currently most goods from Ukraine has 0% custom clearance. Yes Ukraine still have preferences! But after Ukraine will open borders with EU by association custom, taxes will became same as for all other countries.

Lockstep

dnk wrote: »

That's why they change Janukovich to oligarch and former minister of economic Poroshenko. Is it a "change" ?
Aha they voted to person who already steal and laundered lot of money and continue do even more effective as a president. Nice

Source?

dnk wrote: »

It's a lie. Again west propaganda cliche. Most of Russian media is even against government.

No, not Western propaganda. The BBC summarises it quite well here
But seeing as you think the BBC is Western lies, here's Freedom House's Profile on Russia

dnk wrote: »

Do you or anybody has an evidence?

Source that Russia has had to deal with armed seperatists in the past?
Well, if you insist...

dnk wrote: »

Is Poroshenko who sponsor of "maidan" and "Right Sector" nazi left side?! (facepalm)
Anyway : 3rd place. Ljashko - 8,7%. One of clear nazi who created own army and personally do torture captured people.
2% heh!

Ljashko is right wing and a nationalist but not a nazi. Unless you're so desperate to oppose Ukrainian independence that every Ukrainian nationalist is a nazi or a right winger. Nice use of diabolical causality there.

dnk wrote: »

Totally opposite. West media like BBC permanently do propaganda. It's easy as west people trust them and never check information. As you see above, your all statements based on wrong information.
I see you agree that "increase gaz price for Ukraine" is a lie by propaganda.

And all of your information seems to be whatever the Kremlin is spouting. Honestly, you remind me of those Americans who only watch Fox News with a blind adherence to 'MURICA.

At any rate, ironic that you criticise the BBC for propaganda is fairly ironic!
(yup) , especially given the state of press "freedom" in Russia.

dnk wrote: »

I forecast that next west "veracity" media will say that Russia punish Ukraine by custom barriers. Truth is that currently most goods from Ukraine has 0% custom clearance. Yes Ukraine still have preferences! But after Ukraine will open borders with EU by association custom, taxes will became same as for all other countries.

Can I get a tinfoil hat like yours?

Lockstep

vadzen wrote: »

Russian? Please provide mothers, grandmothers and grand-grandmothers names and surnames of top of Russian Federation politics, oligarchs, show men. Their are using Russian language only, even changed by them since 1917.
comongethappy, you forgot mention, that Putin destroyed civil apartments building in 1999 (wiki: Russian apartment bombings) with almost Rus people even 2(!) years before September 11, 2001. If Putin had started war against just small part G. Busk claimed war against "terrorist" in ALL world.
comongethappy, you forgot mention, that Putin killed almost Rus people in submarine "Kursk"...
One of russian anecdote: "mister Putin, you have won election, but almost nobody voted for you."
comongethappy, what common has Putin with Berel Lazar? Please google images "Putin Lazar" for more info.
P.S. Book "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" (Antony C. Sutton) is really actual nowadays as well.

Could you expand on what you mean here? I appreciate English might not be your first language but I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.

jimeryan22

Quote: dnk
That's why they change Janukovich to oligarch and former minister of economic Poroshenko. Is it a "change" ?
Aha they voted to person who already steal and laundered lot of money and continue do even more effective as a president. Nice

Source..?




In December 2001 Poroshenko broke ranks with Kuchma supporters to become campaign chief of Viktor Yushchenko's Our Ukraine Bloc opposition faction. After parliamentary elections in March 2002 in which Our Ukraine won the biggest share of the popular vote and Poroshenko won a seat in parliament,[13][21] Poroshenko served as head of the parliamentary budget committee, where he was accused of "misplacing 47 million hryvnias" (USD$ 8.9 million).[22] As a consequence of Poroshenko's Our Ukraine Bloc membership tax inspectors launched an attack on his business.[13] Despite great difficulties, UkrPromInvest managed to survive until Yushchenko became President of Ukraine in 2005.[13]

Poroshenko was considered a close confidant of Yushchenko, who is godfather to Poroshenko's daughters. Poroshenko was likely to have been the wealthiest businessman among Yushchenko supporters, and was often named as one of the main financial backers of Our Ukraine and the Orange Revolution.[23] After Yushchenko won the presidential elections in 2004, Poroshenko was appointed Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council.[13][14]


Poroshenko attending a U.S. Independence Day celebration at the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, July 6, 2005
In September 2005, highly publicized mutual allegations of corruption erupted between Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko involving the privatizations of state-owned firms.[1] Poroshenko, for example, was accused of defending the interests of Viktor Pinchuk, who had acquired state firm Nikopol Ferroalloy for $80 million, independently valued at $1 billion.[24] In response to the allegations, Yushchenko dismissed his entire cabinet of ministers, including Poroshenko and Tymoshenko.[25] State prosecutors dismissed an abuse of power investigation against Poroshenko the following month,[26] immediately after Yushchenko dismissed Svyatoslav Piskun, General Prosecutor of Ukraine. Piskun claimed that he was sacked because he refused to institute criminal proceedings against Tymoshenko and refused to drop proceedings against Poroshenko.[27]


Nah... He's not corrupt at all... Total straight guy. Who only cares for The average Ukrainian

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Quote: dnk
That's why they change Janukovich to oligarch and former minister of economic Poroshenko. Is it a "change" ?
Aha they voted to person who already steal and laundered lot of money and continue do even more effective as a president. Nice

Source..?




In December 2001 Poroshenko broke ranks with Kuchma supporters to become campaign chief of Viktor Yushchenko's Our Ukraine Bloc opposition faction. After parliamentary elections in March 2002 in which Our Ukraine won the biggest share of the popular vote and Poroshenko won a seat in parliament,[13][21] Poroshenko served as head of the parliamentary budget committee, where he was accused of "misplacing 47 million hryvnias" (USD$ 8.9 million).[22] As a consequence of Poroshenko's Our Ukraine Bloc membership tax inspectors launched an attack on his business.[13] Despite great difficulties, UkrPromInvest managed to survive until Yushchenko became President of Ukraine in 2005.[13]

Poroshenko was considered a close confidant of Yushchenko, who is godfather to Poroshenko's daughters. Poroshenko was likely to have been the wealthiest businessman among Yushchenko supporters, and was often named as one of the main financial backers of Our Ukraine and the Orange Revolution.[23] After Yushchenko won the presidential elections in 2004, Poroshenko was appointed Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council.[13][14]


Poroshenko attending a U.S. Independence Day celebration at the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, July 6, 2005
In September 2005, highly publicized mutual allegations of corruption erupted between Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko involving the privatizations of state-owned firms.[1] Poroshenko, for example, was accused of defending the interests of Viktor Pinchuk, who had acquired state firm Nikopol Ferroalloy for $80 million, independently valued at $1 billion.[24] In response to the allegations, Yushchenko dismissed his entire cabinet of ministers, including Poroshenko and Tymoshenko.[25] State prosecutors dismissed an abuse of power investigation against Poroshenko the following month,[26] immediately after Yushchenko dismissed Svyatoslav Piskun, General Prosecutor of Ukraine. Piskun claimed that he was sacked because he refused to institute criminal proceedings against Tymoshenko and refused to drop proceedings against Poroshenko.[27]

If you're going to literally copy-paste from Wikipedia, at least cite it as your source.
At any rate, none of that proves your point. It says Poroshenko was accused. Not that he was found guilty or convicted. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time I've been told that the presumption of innocence is a bourgeois liberal concept.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

If you're going to literally copy-paste from Wikipedia, at least cite it as your source.
At any rate, none of that proves your point. It says Poroshenko was accused. Not that he was found guilty or convicted. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time I've been told that the presumption of innocence is a bourgeois liberal concept.

Ok... How's this..?
Or just Russian propaganda I suppose...?

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_12/Wikileaks-exposes-dark-sides-of-Ukraine-s-Poroshenko-Tymoshenko-3063/

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

If you're going to literally copy-paste from Wikipedia, at least cite it as your source.
At any rate, none of that proves your point. It says Poroshenko was accused. Not that he was found guilty or convicted. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time I've been told that the presumption of innocence is a bourgeois liberal concept.

Didn't matter of course that the prosecutor was sacked for not dropping the corruption charges... I mean there's nowt bogey about that at all.. Move along. Nothing to see here

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Ok... How's this..?
Or just Russian propaganda I suppose...?

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_12/Wikileaks-exposes-dark-sides-of-Ukraine-s-Poroshenko-Tymoshenko-3063/

So we've gone from Wikipedia to Voice of Russia. You might want to update your sources.
He gave the US government info. That's about it. You've gone from one attempt to discredit him to another, presumably as you couldn't find anything better to support your original claim.
If you can find any concrete evidence for him being corrupt, then go for it. As it stands, it's all hearsay and conjecture.

While amassing his billions, Poroshenko seems to have stayed within the law, said Svitlana Zalishchuk, whose CHESNO ("Honest") non-profit put all of the presidential candidates under a microscope. "We couldn't find any instances of corruption," she said.
Furthermore, Zalishchuk said, the billionaire has operated relatively transparently in politics. "Last year, he published the names of his employees and the times he was available to speak with citizens. He just didn't publish his side income - that's the only negative that we could ascertain."
Source: Deutsche Welle

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Didn't matter of course that the prosecutor was sacked for not dropping the corruption charges... I mean there's nowt bogey about that at all.. Move along. Nothing to see here

No, he claims he was sacked for not dropping the corruption charges.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

So we've gone from Wikipedia to Voice of Russia. You might want to update your sources.
He gave the US government info. That's about it. You've gone from one attempt to discredit him to another, presumably as you couldn't find anything better to support your original claim.
If you can find any concrete evidence for him being corrupt, then go for it. As it stands, it's all hearsay and conjecture.




No, he claims he was sacked for not dropping the corruption charges.

I didn't go trawling the net if that's what you mean no.... If you want to think he's white as snow I'm afraid that's your business... I'm not naive to think the guy is straight whatsoever but like it always does, it will all come out eventually, and in main stream enough media for the likes of yourself sir..

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I didn't go trawling the net if that's what you mean no.... If you want to think he's white as snow I'm afraid that's your business... I'm not naive to think the guy is straight whatsoever but like it always does, it will all come out eventually, and in main stream enough media for the likes of yourself sir..

I don't recall ever saying he was as white as snow or anything approaching that. He's a politician and a person so of course he'll have skeletons in his closet. As it stands though, there's been nothing to show that his skeletons have been particularly large or egregious, no matter how much Russian state media tries to push it.

Jonny7

Another helicopter shot down, 9 feared dead, one day after rebels vowed to observe a ceasefire

Read several interviews with recruiters operating in Russia - there's no shortage of volunteers, ex-army types, willing to cross the border and fight the "fascists", essentially young ultra-nationalists pumped up on propaganda believing they are going to fight a fictitious "nazi" threat and reclaim Russia territory. Mental stuff.

vadzen

Jonny7 wrote: »

Another helicopter shot down, 9 feared dead.

Include 4 Ukrainian ex-KGB(SBU) officers.

Parashenko words are not orders for Ukrainian army and National forces.
youtube.com/watch?v=mVnJ3wCFwEM

President Vladimir Putin has proposed that the upper house CALL OFF the March 1 resolution allowing the head of state to use the armed forces on the territory of Ukraine.
rt.com/news/168092-putin-revoke-military-ukraine/
Have been show rules changed?

Jonny7 wrote: »

Read several interviews with recruiters operating in Russia - there's no shortage of volunteers, ex-army types, willing to cross the border and fight the "fascists", essentially young ultra-nationalists pumped up on propaganda believing they are going to fight a fictitious "nazi" threat. Mental stuff.

Please read about 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Ukrainian) (wiki).
Fans of the FC Karpaty Lviv football club honoring the Waffen-SS Galizien division, Lviv, Ukraine, 2013 (wiki image). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ukrainian%29#mediaviewer/File:SS-Galizien-Banner.jpg Next Match has been moved to different city by UEFA...
Please have a look to photos imhoclub.lv/ru/material/kiev_zapretil_velikuju_pobedu . Photos date is 8/05/2014. Year is 2014. It is not 1942, not 1943.
Maidan'n mercenary are with SS simbols: bloknot.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/boeviki.jpg
Would you continue type about no nazi, no fascists and no SS divisions in Ukraine nowadays? Who is mental?

Jonny7

vadzen wrote: »

Would you continue type about no nazi, no fascists and no SS divisions in Ukraine nowadays? Who is mental?

Every country has neo-Nazi's, fascists and far-right members. If you are genuinely concerned about it you may want to look closer to home, for example Russia is home to approximately half the world's total number of neo-Nazi members - Amnesty international puts the figure at about 80,000

Russia media is very heavily controlled by the Kremlin. If you genuinely want to know about the uprising and subsequent events then I suggest checking out the news from.. any other country in the world.

vadzen

Jonny7 wrote: »

Russia media is very heavily controlled by the Kremlin. If you genuinely want to know about the uprising and subsequent events then I suggest checking out the news from.. any other country in the world.

I do not trust either Kremlin and west official mass media.
youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw
Even Ukrainian: youtube.com/watch?v=Yq8kc4izDrQ
informationclearinghouse.info/article38427.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article38672.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article37752.htm
Is wikipedia.org Kremlin mass media?

jimeryan22

vadzen wrote: »

I do not trust either Kremlin and west official mass media.
youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw
Even Ukrainian: youtube.com/watch?v=Yq8kc4izDrQ
informationclearinghouse.info/article38427.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article38672.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article37752.htm
Is wikipedia.org Kremlin mass media?

A lot of disinformation operatives on old boards mate... Yes, even here..
I'd go as far to say pro's

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

A lot of disinformation operatives on old boards mate... Yes, even here..
I'd go as far to say pro's

Indeed, when posters only post on a single topic, you'd have to wonder.......