Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

dharma200

This thread has serious links to wiki.... Gawd

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Indeed, when posters only post on a single topic, you'd have to wonder.......

Or when all posters do.. Is just try end anyone else's point of view with a useless smart arse comment...

Lockstep

vadzen wrote: »

Include 4 Ukrainian ex-KGB(SBU) officers.

Parashenko words are not orders for Ukrainian army and National forces.
youtube.com/watch?v=mVnJ3wCFwEM

President Vladimir Putin has proposed that the upper house CALL OFF the March 1 resolution allowing the head of state to use the armed forces on the territory of Ukraine.
rt.com/news/168092-putin-revoke-military-ukraine/
Have been show rules changed?
Please read about 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Ukrainian) (wiki).
Fans of the FC Karpaty Lviv football club honoring the Waffen-SS Galizien division, Lviv, Ukraine, 2013 (wiki image). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_%281st_Ukrainian%29#mediaviewer/File:SS-Galizien-Banner.jpg Next Match has been moved to different city by UEFA...
Please have a look to photos imhoclub.lv/ru/material/kiev_zapretil_velikuju_pobedu . Photos date is 8/05/2014. Year is 2014. It is not 1942, not 1943.
Maidan'n mercenary are with SS simbols: bloknot.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/boeviki.jpg
Would you continue type about no nazi, no fascists and no SS divisions in Ukraine nowadays? Who is mental?

Wikipedia, Youtube and RT. If you'd included Fox News and Globalresearch.ca, you'd have hit a terrible sources homerun.

Lemming

Lockstep wrote: »

Wikipedia, Youtube and RT. If you'd included Fox News and Globalresearch.ca, you'd have hit a terrible sources homerun.

Don't forget the citing of informationclearinghouse.info ...

Jonny7

vadzen wrote: »

I do not trust either Kremlin and west official mass media.
youtube.com/watch?v=fWkfpGCAAuw
Even Ukrainian: youtube.com/watch?v=Yq8kc4izDrQ
informationclearinghouse.info/article38427.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article38672.htm
informationclearinghouse.info/article37752.htm
Is wikipedia.org Kremlin mass media?

Informationclearinghouse is not news. It's a site run by one guy in California who really has serious issues with his government and collects any article that maligns his favorite target

There are plenty of informative credible news sites to choose from:

Euronews
The Guardian from the UK (the paper who released wikileaks and countless leaks so even the most US/UK skeptical can have faith in them)
Der Spiegl (Germany, took a strong stance against Iraq)
El Pais
If you want to get really unbiased, then Scandinavian media is considered the most free worldwide

If you truly believe that hundreds of outlets in the West across dozens of countries are all actually controlled or whatever silliness, then would suggest
Al Arabiya (Middle Eastern)
Times of Pakistan (and India)
South American press
and so on

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

Informationclearinghouse is not news. It's a site run by one guy in California who really has serious issues with his government and collects any article that maligns his favorite target

There are plenty of informative credible news sites to choose from:

Euronews
The Guardian from the UK (the paper who released wikileaks and countless leaks so even the most US/UK skeptical can have faith in them)
Der Spiegl (Germany, took a strong stance against Iraq)
El Pais
If you want to get really unbiased, then Scandinavian media is considered the most free worldwide

If you truly believe that hundreds of outlets in the West across dozens of countries are all actually controlled or whatever silliness, then would suggest
Al Arabiya (Middle Eastern)
Times of Pakistan (and India)
South American press
and so on

Well in return.. All you people are just as welcome to get all your news/world views off the same main stream owned media that was complicit in the lies told the last time.. Ie WMD's, misreporting, non reporting..

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Well in return.. All you people are just as welcome to get all your news/world views off the same main stream owned media that was complicit in the lies told the last time.. Ie WMD's, misreporting, non reporting..

Who are "all you people"?
Nothing wrong with the outlets Johnny suggested.

Meanwhile, Putin has asked the russian parliament de-authorise Russian military invasion of Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/24/ukraine-crisis-putin-russia-military-intervention-ceasefire

Crimea is in the bag, so why not.

Jonny7

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Well in return.. All you people are just as welcome to get all your news/world views off the same main stream owned media that was complicit in the lies told the last time.. Ie WMD's, misreporting, non reporting..

Which is a pretty absurd generalisation

In the example of Iraq, Bush stood up in front of a world audience, and made claims that turned out to be false - it was the papers and TV stations around the world that reported his claims

That is not complicity - that is doing their job, they report

Papers and TV stations also have analysis, debate and editorials - which disputed and challenged the claims

In the cases of many European media outlets - tore the claims apart. Likewise many governments challenged the claims.

In the case of Ukraine -

Russian media is generally reporting one thing
Vast majority of media in the world is reporting another

So either Russian media (most of which is owned by the state) is being used to push a government narrative that is not in line with events/facts

or

thousands of competing newspapers and TV stations around the world are being told what to report

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Who are "all you people"?
Nothing wrong with the outlets Johnny suggested.

Meanwhile, Putin has asked the russian parliament de-authorise Russian military invasion of Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/24/ukraine-crisis-putin-russia-military-intervention-ceasefire

Crimea is in the bag, so why not.

A broad term used.. Include yourself of you like.. It really makes no difference to me.. Still pushing that ole putins gonna take over first Ukraine then the world rubbish

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

A broad term used.. Include yourself of you like.. It really makes no difference to me.. Still pushing that ole putins gonna take over first Ukraine then the world rubbish

Evidently not.... I put up the link as an example of deescalation.

You will always see what you want to see Jim.

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Evidently not.... I put up the link as an example of deescalation.

You will always see what you want to see Jim.

So YOU keep telling me happy

Count Dooku

Jonny7 wrote: »

Which is a pretty absurd generalisation

In the example of Iraq, Bush stood up in front of a world audience, and made claims that turned out to be false - it was the papers and TV stations around the world that reported his claims

That is not complicity - that is doing their job, they report

Papers and TV stations also have analysis, debate and editorials - which disputed and challenged the claims

In the cases of many European media outlets - tore the claims apart. Likewise many governments challenged the claims.

In the case of Ukraine -

Russian media is generally reporting one thing
Vast majority of media in the world is reporting another

So either Russian media (most of which is owned by the state) is being used to push a government narrative that is not in line with events/facts

or

thousands of competing newspapers and TV stations around the world are being told what to report

Thousands of competing newspapers and TV stations simply don't have anybody there and have to rely on information provided by Kiev

riffmongous

110,000 people have fled from Ukraine to Russia according to UN, with 54k displaced within the country.

link

Sad to hear about it. From the politics viewpoint though the question is why? From what I have read I would guess it is mostly as a result of the fighting, for which both sides must take the blame of course, but obviously how the blame is proportioned will differ massively here. I'm undecided, a lot of the blame lies with the separatists for most of the escalating and also rejection of ceasefire attempts. But some videos appear to show less than precise Ukrainian airstrikes which would force people to evacuate.

I wonder how much has also been caused by 'Ukrainian = Nazi' propaganda than has been spouted so much and with so little evidence so far? Inflaming fears of another Yugoslavia among the russian-ukrainians..

jimeryan22

riffmongous wrote: »

110,000 people have fled from Ukraine to Russia according to UN, with 54k displaced within the country.

link

Sad to hear about it. From the politics viewpoint though the question is why? From what I have read I would guess it is mostly as a result of the fighting, for which both sides must take the blame of course, but obviously how the blame is proportioned will differ massively here. I'm undecided, a lot of the blame lies with the separatists for most of the escalating and also rejection of ceasefire attempts. But some videos appear to show less than precise Ukrainian airstrikes which would force people to evacuate.

I wonder how much has also been caused by 'Ukrainian = Nazi' propaganda than has been spouted so much and with so little evidence so far? Inflaming fears of another Yugoslavia among the russian-ukrainians..

Really must they..? The so called seperatists have done all the escalating...? They haven't blown anybody up or used helicopters or jets on the public.. The so called Ukrainian government has..
And no evidence of nazi lovers in the place..? Yeah right..

jimeryan22

But of course this is just Russian lies...
Or brittish..? Read the article of bbc own admission of fascist nazi yobs... But oh no..!!!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bbc-supports-ukraines-neo-nazis/5383112

riffmongous

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Really must they..? The so called seperatists have done all the escalating...? They haven't blown anybody up or used helicopters or jets on the public.. The so called Ukrainian government has..
And no evidence of nazi lovers in the place..? Yeah right..

A lot of the military casualties have come from a number if incidents, mostly the shooting down of Ukrainian transport helicopters by the separatists (even during a ceasefire), I would view those incidents as escalations inviting the ukrainian response. Yes there are some Ukrainian 'Nazis' but proportionally they are very small and I havent seen any evidence of Nazi like tendencies from the Ukrainian government so far. It's seem like fear mongering to me and the price could well be thousands of ethnic russians leaving their homes and lives

jimeryan22

riffmongous wrote: »

A lot of the military casualties have come from a number if incidents, mostly the shooting down of Ukrainian transport helicopters by the separatists (even during a ceasefire), I would view those incidents as escalations inviting the ukrainian response. Yes there are some Ukrainian 'Nazis' but proportionally they are very small and I havent seen any evidence of Nazi like tendencies from the Ukrainian government so far. It's seem like fear mongering to me and the price could well be thousands of ethnic russians leaving their homes and lives

Well get it right... Ethnic Ukrainians of Russian descent... Not Russians...

comongethappy

riffmongous wrote: »

110,000 people have fled from Ukraine to Russia according to UN, with 54k displaced within the country.

link

Sad to hear about it. From the politics viewpoint though the question is why? From what I have read I would guess it is mostly as a result of the fighting, for which both sides must take the blame of course, but obviously how the blame is proportioned will differ massively here. I'm undecided, a lot of the blame lies with the separatists for most of the escalating and also rejection of ceasefire attempts. But some videos appear to show less than precise Ukrainian airstrikes which would force people to evacuate.

I wonder how much has also been caused by 'Ukrainian = Nazi' propaganda than has been spouted so much and with so little evidence so far? Inflaming fears of another Yugoslavia among the russian-ukrainians..

All part of why its been the worst year since WW2 for displaced persons around the world.

Even Russia is not immune.
2013 saw Russia replace Afghanistan as the second most numerous nationality seeking asylum around the world, just being edged out by Syria.

Jonny7

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Really must they..? The so called seperatists have done all the escalating...? They haven't blown anybody up or used helicopters or jets on the public.. The so called Ukrainian government has..
And no evidence of nazi lovers in the place..? Yeah right..

The separatists.. (at the risk of repeating myself)

Almost overnight, several hundred separatists appeared, heavily armed, coordinated and seemingly well organised, taking over government and public buildings in the East of the country

These are several hundred men in a region with millions of inhabitants. A region which has little or no history of armed insurrection, a region in which, polls show, is not in favor of joining Moscow

Regardless, the separatists seized and control buildings - they seized journalists, academics, local politicians - some are murdered, many are beaten and held

They hold a vote that even Russia refuses to recognise in which they "receive" approx 90% of the vote, despite evidence of many irregularities

If several hundred hardcore Republicans were to take over parts of Ireland, hold false referendums, they would very quickly find the situation escalates - if they tried this somewhere like Russia, they would all be long dead by now, that's a given

The Ukrainian government was very patient with these armed groups, but ultimately has a right to protect it's people, and considering the circumstances - not to mention the extremely suspicious nature and timing and organisation of the rebels - they have used force to combat them

This has escalated - like I mentioned before the separatists have taken down helicopters and a transport plane, they are extremely well armed, including tanks, there are reports of grad launchers - how they get this heavy machinery and where they are getting them from is again deeply suspicious

They recently rejected a fair peace deal from the new Ukrainian PM, which involves votes and referendums on potential autonomy. They accept a new ceasefire deal only to break it the next day and continually since.

In countless interviews, many of the separatists repeat the same concerns about "neo-nazi's" and "fascists" - which coincidentally echos exactly the state-run propaganda from Moscow. A minority of those that took part in the uprising were from far-right groups - something that the Russian media has completely seized upon and has been exaggerating and exploiting for months

I've mentioned all this before - including the fact that two far-right candidates got approx 2% of the national vote between them

And as for the fact that a bunch of heavily armed, pro-Russian ultra-nationalists with zero respect for genuine elections are calling their ficticious enemy fascists - they might want to look in the mirror

jimeryan22

Jonny7 wrote: »

The separatists.. (at the risk of repeating myself)

Almost overnight, several hundred separatists appeared, heavily armed, coordinated and seemingly well organised, taking over government and public buildings in the East of the country

These are several hundred men in a region with millions of inhabitants. A region which has little or no history of armed insurrection, a region in which, polls show, is not in favor of joining Moscow

Regardless, the separatists seized and control buildings - they seized journalists, academics, local politicians - some are murdered, many are beaten and held

They hold a vote that even Russia refuses to recognise in which they "receive" approx 90% of the vote, despite evidence of many irregularities

If several hundred hardcore Republicans were to take over parts of Ireland, hold false referendums, they would very quickly find the situation escalates - if they tried this somewhere like Russia, they would all be long dead by now, that's a given

The Ukrainian government was very patient with these armed groups, but ultimately has a right to protect it's people, and considering the circumstances - not to mention the extremely suspicious nature and timing and organisation of the rebels - they have used force to combat them

This has escalated - like I mentioned before the separatists have taken down helicopters and a transport plane, they are extremely well armed, including tanks, there are reports of grad launchers - how they get this heavy machinery and where they are getting them from is again deeply suspicious

They recently rejected a fair peace deal from the new Ukrainian PM, which involves votes and referendums on potential autonomy. They accept a new ceasefire deal only to break it the next day and continually since.

In countless interviews, many of the separatists repeat the same concerns about "neo-nazi's" and "fascists" - which coincidentally echos exactly the state-run propaganda from Moscow. A minority of those that took part in the uprising were from far-right groups - something that the Russian media has completely seized upon and has been exaggerating and exploiting for months

I've mentioned all this before - including the fact that two far-right candidates got approx 2% of the national vote between them

And as for the fact that a bunch of heavily armed, pro-Russian ultra-nationalists with zero respect for genuine elections are calling their ficticious enemy fascists - they might want to look in the mirror

Sources of all this please... So I can piece together this fairytale

comongethappy

Jonny7 wrote: »

And as for the fact that a bunch of heavily armed, pro-Russian ultra-nationalists with zero respect for genuine elections are calling their ficticious enemy fascists - they might want to look in the mirror

The double standard of the Kremlin & its supporters shrieking "NAZI" like its going out of fashion is comical as well as tragic.

There isn't a country in the whole continent anywhere near as right wing as Russia.
Hungary makes a good effort but can't deliver the goods like the Kremlin does.

To the Kremlin, irony is what girders taste like.

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

The double standard of the Kremlin & its supporters shrieking "NAZI" like its going out of fashion is comical as well as tragic.

There isn't a country in the whole continent anywhere near as right wing as Russia.
Hungary makes a good effort but can't deliver the goods like the Kremlin does.

To the Kremlin, irony is what girders taste like.

So is the "west's" Russia talk nonsense..
Erh, pretty sure yanky land is pretty much a police state these days if you actually keep up with what's going on there... Politicians ignoring their constitution (the law). Blah blah blah. Meanwhile protecting everybody from terrorists they created in the first place by taking peoples liberty away... While funding and arming the terrorists. And "vetting" them. Hahahaha. Yeah. Yeah right

Oh. But you'll probably "yawn" tell me again how I hate America and west bull... No. Hate the hypocracy double standered bull

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So is the "west's" Russia talk nonsense..
Erh, pretty sure yanky land is pretty much a police state these days if you actually keep up with what's going on there... Politicians ignoring their constitution (the law). Blah blah blah. Meanwhile protecting everybody from terrorists they created in the first place by taking peoples liberty away... While funding and arming the terrorists. And "vetting" them. Hahahaha. Yeah. Yeah right

Jeez Jimmy.... Your taking criticism of the Kremlin very personally!

When were you last in America to know its a police state?
I'm genuinely keen to know.

Follow up: What European country do you think is more far-right than Russia? (If any).

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Jeez Jimmy.... Your taking criticism of the Kremlin very personally!

When were you last in America to know its a police state?
I'm genuinely keen to know.

Not really, just sick listening to it...

Last time given is a long time ago.. But I tend to keep up with the news there..
So you don't remember the day after the Boston bombing the cops going house to house, dressed in full body armor, military spec gear kicking everyone out of their house with no warrants looking for some kid...??? Don't remember that no..? Or how in last 2 months there's uproar because the police are getting armoured vehicles and other equipment brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan..? No..?
What about the case after case of police brutality..? Like, in the last month a young women getting sent down for I think 3 years for elbowing some cop "man" (or joke of) in the nose at a protest, when she didn't even know...??? I could go on

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I could go on.

Please don't!

If you want to start a thread on the excesses of some of the cops in America, by all means go for it.... No one is stopping that,

However in the context of this thread, & your whataboutery aside, comparing the varying levels of liberty in Russia vs the US is indeed rather different, as I'm sure you would rationally agree with.

Question still stands though, what country in Europe is more right wing than Russia?
I'm struggling with it, I'm hoping you can shed some light.

Btw.... You should visit the US, you might even like it!

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Please don't!

If you want to start a thread on the excesses of some of the cops in America, by all means go for it.... No one is stopping that,

However in the context of this thread, & your whataboutery aside, comparing the varying levels of liberty in Russia vs the US is indeed rather different, as I'm sure you would rationally agree with.

Question still stands though, what country in Europe is more right wing than Russia.
I'm struggling with it, I'm hoping you can shed some light.

Hahaha. Your so funny... Really you are... My whataboutery as you put it was in response to your original post so is perfectly legitimate... As for you question. Easy.. First France... Of course. Italy....The Danes the Finns the Austrians the Dutch.

And thanks, been there done that.. I've family there and in Canada.. Also was stationed in Canada to where my daughter was born.. Thankyou

jimeryan22

A nice little source for you

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2085728,00.html

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

France... Of course. Italy....The Danes the Finns the Austrians the Dutch.

Fair enough

Though if you really believe all of those governments/countries are more right wing than the Putin administration/Russia is, then I fear Jim, you are drifting down the rabbit hole.

Fair play to you though..... And someone tell Francois Hollande!

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Fair enough

Though if you really believe all of those governments/countries are more right wing than the Putin administration/Russia is, then I fear Jim, you are drifting down the rabbit hole.

Fair play to you though..... And someone tell Francois Hollande!

Keep kiddin yourself then...
You seem to do alot of it

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Hahaha. Your so funny... Really you are... My whataboutery as you put it was in response to your original post so is perfectly legitimate... As for you question. Easy.. First France... Of course. Italy....The Danes the Finns the Austrians the Dutch.

And thanks, been there done that.. I've family there and in Canada.. Also was stationed in Canada to where my daughter was born.. Thankyou

France is more right wing than Russia?
And yet, France scores higher on the Press Freedom Index, the Democracy Index, gay rights. Plus Russia is one of the worst offenders of the ECtHR.

It's a shame that your opinions differ so much from facts.