Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Elmer Blooker

Question still stands though, what country in Europe is more right wing than Russia?
I'm struggling with it, I'm hoping you can shed some light.

Ireland? Croatia? Ever heard of the Croatian Ustacha? Croatian football hooligans make the rest look like a class of junior infants!

I would put Ireland up there with the most right wing countries in Europe, we haven't had a government since the foundation of the state that could be considered in any way left. The Irish "Labour" party is as right wing as the other two parties. Fianna Fail who ran the country into the ground appear to be making a comeback as the recent local elections showed. A large section of the Irish electorate seen to have no problem voting for a right wing party that stands for and represents absolutely nothing.
In any civilized country divorce is seen as a civil right yet 49.9% of the good old Irish electorate saw fit to vote against this basic civil right.
On the subject of homophobia lets not forget the dirty tricks campaign against David Norris in the Presidential election campaign, "someone" saw fit to dig up an old Hot Press interview with a former partner of Mr Norris and that was the end of his bid for the Presidency.
When discussing the most right wing country in Europe perhaps look a little closer to home.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

France is more right wing than Russia?
And yet, France scores higher on the Press Freedom Index, the Democracy Index, gay rights. Plus Russia is one of the worst offenders of the ECtHR.

It's a shame that your opinions differ so much from facts.

Not really.
It just depends on whether one considers socialism left wing.. Which I don't.. And nor would many others...
Press freedom index..? Don't make me laugh.. Not biased at all is it? And of course nor is you EU court of human rights... So you carry on "choosing" your facts like you have been for the entirety of the thread...

jimeryan22

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ireland? Croatia? Ever heard of the Croatian Ustacha? Croatian football hooligans make the rest look like a class of junior infants!

I would put Ireland up there with the most right wing countries in Europe, we haven't had a government since the foundation of the state that could be considered in any way left. The Irish "Labour" party is as right wing as the other two parties. Fianna Fail who ran the country into the ground appear to be making a comeback as the recent local elections showed. A large section of the Irish electorate seen to have no problem voting for a right wing party that stands for and represents absolutely nothing.
In any civilized country divorce is seen as a civil right yet 49.9% of the good old Irish electorate saw fit to vote against this basic civil right.
On the subject of homophobia lets not forget the dirty tricks campaign against David Norris in the Presidential election campaign, "someone" saw fit to dig up an old Hot Press interview with a former partner of Mr Norris and that was the end of his bid for the Presidency.
When discussing the most right wing country in Europe perhaps look a little closer to home.

Oh and don't forget, we're regarded by a lot of other westerners as having one of THE most corrupt group of politicians anywhere..

jimeryan22

Nah.. Not Ireland

http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-corruption-702115-Dec2012/

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Not really.
It just depends on whether one considers socialism left wing.. Which I don't.. And nor would many others...
Press freedom index..? Don't make me laugh.. Not biased at all is it? And of course nor is you EU court of human rights... So you carry on "choosing" your facts like you have been for the entirety of the thread...

Your logical gymnastics is getting more and more bizarre.

You're now accusing RSF of being biased. You're really grasping at straws here.

You do realise that the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, right? The Council of Europe and the EU are two different organisations. Hence why Russia is a member of the CoE and not the EU. The fact you don't even know what the organisation is makes it fairly bizarre that you feel qualified enough to comment on its bias.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Oh and don't forget, we're regarded by a lot of other westerners as having one of THE most corrupt group of politicians anywhere..

You might want to check out the most recent findings of TI .
In 2013, Russia scores 28%, ranking it as 127 out of 177 countries.
France comes 22nd with 71% and Ireland comes 21st with a score of 72%.

So yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, that we have one of "THE" most corrupt politicians ever.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

Your logical gymnastics is getting more and more bizarre.

You're now accusing RSF of being biased. You're really grasping at straws here.

You do realise that the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, right? The Council of Europe and the EU are two different organisations. Hence why Russia is a member of the CoE and not the EU. The fact you don't even know what the organisation is makes it fairly bizarre that you feel qualified enough to comment on its bias.


You might want to check out the most recent findings of TI .
In 2013, Russia scores 28%, ranking it as 127 out of 177 countries.
France comes 22nd with 71% and Ireland comes 21st with a score of 72%.

So yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, that we have one of "THE" most corrupt politicians ever.

Another crowd I'd put as much faith in as banks used for your corruption chart.. Which I've seen before.. You realise transparency international was set up by an ex head of the world bank..? Who again like all the banks are not very corrupt at all now are they....??

As for your use of the term my logical gymnastics..? That's a good one I must remember that.. Of course I know the difference between the organisations, the fact that you think I don't from the way I typed my last post is pretty bizarre, it was a typing error I'm on a stupid iPhone But from that you attack the poster..? Usual stuff then for a response

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Another crowd I'd put as much faith in as banks used for your corruption chart.. Which I've seen before.. You realise transparency international was set up by an ex head of the world bank..? Who again like all the banks are not very corrupt at all now are they....??

As for your use of the term my logical gymnastics..? That's a good one I must remember that.. Of course I know the difference between the organisations, the fact that you think I don't from the way I typed my last post is pretty bizarre, it was a typing error I'm on a stupid iPhone But from that you attack the poster..? Usual stuff then for a response

Can you post the metrics you have showing us France is more far-right than Russia?

Thanks!

Count Dooku

riffmongous wrote: »

A lot of the military casualties have come from a number if incidents, mostly the shooting down of Ukrainian transport helicopters by the separatists (even during a ceasefire), I would view those incidents as escalations inviting the ukrainian response. Yes there are some Ukrainian 'Nazis' but proportionally they are very small and I havent seen any evidence of Nazi like tendencies from the Ukrainian government so far. It's seem like fear mongering to me and the price could well be thousands of ethnic russians leaving their homes and lives

There is no need for Ukrainian 'nazis' go to government and take responsibilities. They are happy with fact that they can do everything what they want and can overthrow any government, which they don't like
This is what they did last week and police did nothing to stop them

Russian Orthodox Church in Kiev

Central police office in Lutsk, Western Ukraine

Trade unions conference in Kiev

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Can you post the metrics you have showing us France is more far-right than Russia?

Thanks!

No need happy.... Anyone actually living with the rest of us in the real world know that a country like France, that has a near 100% tax code is pretty right wing.. As for somewhere like Russia where they're paying family's to have kids, and as much as you and others try and deny is the most progresive country in Europe, since the collapse of the USSR... But sure choose to ignore it..

Hmmm.....

jimeryan22

Count Dooku wrote: »

There is no need for Ukrainian 'nazis' go to government and take responsibilities. They are happy with fact that they can do everything what they want and can overthrow any government, which they don't like
This is what they did last week and police did nothing to stop them

Russian Orthodox Church in Kiev

Central police office in Lutsk, Western Ukraine

Trade unions conference in Kiev

Look at all those real Ukrainian protestors, with their BDU's and baliclavas... They're not like brown shirts at all. Hmmm.. Yeah right

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

No need happy.... Anyone actually living with the rest of us in the real world know that a country like France, that has a near 100% tax code is pretty right wing.. As for somewhere like Russia where they're paying family's to have kids, and as much as you and others try and deny is the most progresive country in Europe, since the collapse of the USSR... But sure choose to ignore it..

Hmmm.....

So, to paraphrase.... You have no facts to back yourself....

Lockstep brought data.
In conparison your soapboxing, nothing more.

Your just stay confident in your delusion that the French Socialist government is the most right wing in Europe.

Top Gun debating there James...

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

So, to paraphrase.... You have no facts to back yourself....

Lockstep brought data.
In conparison your soapboxing,

Your just stay confident in your delusion that the French Socialist government is the most right wing in Europe.

Top Gun debating there James...

Data..? From a foundation set up by an ex head of the world bank..? Like I said, don't make me laugh
Well you keep deluding yourself for those freedom loving fascist Ukrainians that really aren't fascists at all but peace loving freedom wanting anti corruption loving murderers, happy...

jimeryan22

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Data..? From a foundation set up by an ex head if world bank..? Like I said don't make me laugh
Well you keep deluding yourself for those freedom loving fascist Ukrainians that really aren't fascists at all but peace loving freedom wanting anti corruption loving murderers happy...

And you even quoted me wrong... Show me where I said they're the most right wing in Europe... You asked which country's are more right wing than Russia remember..? Or did you forget already..?

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Another crowd I'd put as much faith in as banks used for your corruption chart.. Which I've seen before.. You realise transparency international was set up by an ex head of the world bank..? Who again like all the banks are not very corrupt at all now are they....??

Are you reading your own sources?
Two posts ago, you posted this after your claim on how corrupt Ireland is.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Nah.. Not Ireland
http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-corruption-702115-Dec2012/

The Journal article is using TI's Corruption Index as their source.
So when I use the latest TI findings as a source, it's untrustworthy, when you post an article that relies on the exact same organisation (with out of date data) , it's legit.
The mind boggles.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

As for your use of the term my logical gymnastics..? That's a good one I must remember that.. Of course I know the difference between the organisations, the fact that you think I don't from the way I typed my last post is pretty bizarre, it was a typing error I'm on a stupid iPhone But from that you attack the poster..? Usual stuff then for a response

You wouldn't be the first person to assume the ECHR is an EU institution. You must have a fairly bizarre iPhone that writes EU when you want it to say CoE or European.
Criticizing someone for referring to the wrong organisation is not attacking the poster.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

As for somewhere like Russia where they're paying family's to have kids, and as much as you and others try and deny is the most progresive country in Europe, since the collapse of the USSR... But sure choose to ignore it..

Dear lord, Russia as the progressive country in Europe? Are you for real?

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

Are you reading your own sources?
Two posts ago, you posted this after your claim on how corrupt Ireland is.

The Journal article is using TI's Corruption Index as their source.
So when I use the latest TI findings as a source, it's untrustworthy, when you post an article that relies on the exact same organisation (with out of date data) , it's legit.
The mind boggles.



You wouldn't be the first person to assume the ECHR is an EU institution. You must have a fairly bizarre iPhone that writes EU when you want it to say CoE or European.
Criticizing someone for referring to the wrong organisation is not attacking the poster.


Dear lord, Russia as the progressive country in Europe? Are you for real?

.. It was used as the first googled option to make a point.. To which, I'll let you have that...

But as to your insistence that I "mistaked" the EU and Echr as the same thing is plain stupid.. But, carry on as it's the best you can do..
And of course Russia is most progressive.. Whether you like to admit it or not.. It's a totally different place to what it was as the USSR
They don't throw people in gulags anymore on mass scale do they..?
Don't commit mass cleansings.. They don't starve their population.... They were up until recently a part of the G8
Etc etc.. Not exactly Stalinist Russia of old in the last 30 years is it.. So yeah. I'd call that pretty progressive

Elmer Blooker

Lockstep wrote: »

Dear lord, Russia as the progressive country in Europe? Are you for real?

Russia has always been very advanced regarding women's rights, women fought alongside men during WW2 and Russia put a woman into space as long ago as 1963, a full twenty years before the US. Ireland was in the stone age regarding women's rights in 1963, women had to resign from government jobs when they got married as recently as 40 years ago! I don't care about corruption indexes to be honest or have much time for them either - what I do know is we have a "golden circle" here in Ireland who still seem to be living in the lap of luxury despite ruining the country while ordinary people somehow have to come up with more and more stealth taxes to pay the debts of these leeches.

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

.. It was used as the first googled option to make a point.. To which, I'll let you have that...

So you Googled it and used a source without checking it, then criticised someone else for using the exact same organisation.
You don't need to "let" me have it, you're doing a fine job of it on your own.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But as to your insistence that I "mistaked" the EU and Echr as the same thing is plain stupid.. But, carry on as it's the best you can do..

It's a sadly common misconception that the CoE is part of the EU and that the ECHR is an EU institution. It's not plain stupid but does show a lack of knowledge on the EU. Which is totally fine, there are areas I don't know much about like chemistry which is why I don't talk about chemistry.
If someones mistake the two in a post, it's far more likely they don't know that the ECHR is a separate institution rather than them somehow mixing it u

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And of course Russia is most progressive.. Whether you like to admit it or not.. It's a totally different place to what it was as the USSR
They don't throw people in gulags anymore on mass scale do they..?
Don't commit mass cleansings.. They were up until recently a part of the G8
Etc etc.. Not exactly Stalinist Russia of old in the last 30 years is it.. So yeah. I'd call that pretty progressive

Russia being more progressive than the USSR doesn't mean it's progressive. It's an authoritarian and corrupt country that is still better when compared to the even more authoritarian and corrupt USSR.
Ireland has a much more liberal abortion regime than we had in 1964. It still doesn't mean we have the most progressive abortion in Europe.

Lockstep

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Russia has always been very advanced regarding women's rights, women fought alongside men during WW2 and Russia put a woman into space as long ago as 1963, a full twenty years before the US. Ireland was in the stone age regarding women's rights in 1963, women had to resign from government jobs when they got married as recently as 40 years ago!

I'm not denying Ireland had a backward attitude to women (and still does). This doesn't mean Russia is the most progressive country in Europe. Look at their stance on gay rights and democratic freedoms. Or their annexation of other countries.

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't care about corruption indexes to be honest or have much time for them either - what I do know is we have a "golden circle" here in Ireland who still seem to be living in the lap of luxury despite ruining the country while ordinary people somehow have to come up with more and more stealth taxes to pay the debts of these leeches.

Right, so you discredit an internationally recognised NGO like TI and prefer to rely on anecdotes. Ireland has improvements to make but we're a relatively uncorrupt country. But don't let facts get in the way of your pre-concieved opinions.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

So you Googled it and used a source without checking it, then criticised someone else for using the exact same organisation.
You don't need to "let" me have it, you're doing a fine job of it on your own.


It's a sadly common misconception that the CoE is part of the EU and that the ECHR is an EU institution. It's not plain stupid but does show a lack of knowledge on the EU. Which is totally fine, there are areas I don't know much about like chemistry which is why I don't talk about chemistry.
If someones mistake the two in a post, it's far more likely they don't know that the ECHR is a separate institution rather than them somehow mixing it u



Russia being more progressive than the USSR doesn't mean it's progressive. It's an authoritarian and corrupt country that is still better when compared to the even more authoritarian and corrupt USSR.
Ireland has a much more liberal abortion regime than we had in 1964. It still doesn't mean we have the most progressive abortion in Europe.

Again there you go. Molesting what someone has said. And then sidestepping by talking of abortion..??
Who said more progressive than USSR..? It's progressive as any other form of governance since the USSR communist government is progressive..
Fact

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

I'm not denying Ireland had a backward attitude to women (and still does). This doesn't mean Russia is the most progressive country in Europe. Look at their stance on gay rights and democratic freedoms. Or their annexation of other countries.


Right, so you discredit an internationally recognised NGO like TI and prefer to rely on anecdotes. Ireland has improvements to make but we're a relatively uncorrupt country. But don't let facts get in the way of your pre-concieved opinions.

Such nonsense...
So your saying basically Ireland not corrupt and there's no inner circle..
It's just gets better

jimeryan22

Oh... And NGO's. Just like the ones used by the US and EU to start this whole Ukraine thing in the first place. Yeah those holy NGO's

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Again there you go. Molesting what someone has said. And then sidestepping by talking of abortion..??
Who said more progressive than USSR..? It's progressive as any other form of governance since the USSR communist government is progressive..
Fact

Molestation of facts?
We've gone from you saying "Russia is the most progressive country in Europe" to trying to justify it as progressive just as it's better than the USSR
Russia is not progressive. It has come a long way since the USSR but it's a lot more authoritarian and reactionary than most European countries.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Such nonsense...
So your saying basically Ireland not corrupt and there's no inner circle..
It's just gets better

No, I'm not basically saying Ireland is "not corrupt"

Lockstep wrote: »

[Ireland is] a relatively uncorrupt country.

Do you not see the difference?

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Oh... And NGO's. Just like the ones used by the US and EU to start this whole Ukraine thing in the first place. Yeah those holy NGO's

You do realise NGOs aren't a single entity, right?
Using that logic, I can disregard whatever Sweden does. Because Sweden is a nation-state and so is North Korea. Grr. Hang them. A pox on all their houses.

Elmer Blooker

Lockstep wrote: »

I'm not denying Ireland had a backward attitude to women (and still does). This doesn't mean Russia is the most progressive country in Europe. Look at their stance on gay rights and democratic freedoms. Or their annexation of other countries.


Right, so you discredit an internationally recognised NGO like TI and prefer to rely on anecdotes. Ireland has improvements to make but we're a relatively uncorrupt country. But don't let facts get in the way of your pre-concieved opinions.

To be honest I know little about Russia's stance on gay rights, is homosexuality illegal like in Saudi Arabia?

I said I don't have much time for these corruption indexes but you've twisted it around and said I "discredit" it - very clever!
Do you really have to resort to such a condescending tone?

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

Molestation of facts?
We've gone from you saying "Russia is the most progressive country in Europe" to trying to justify it as progressive just as it's better than the USSR
Russia is not progressive. It has come a long way since the USSR but it's a lot more authoritarian and reactionary than most European countries.

No, I'm not basically saying Ireland is "not corrupt"

Do you not see the difference?


You do realise NGOs aren't a single entity, right?
Using that logic, I can disregard whatever Sweden does. Because Sweden is a nation-state and so is North Korea. Grr. Hang them. A pox on all their houses.

Yes I know well what NGO's are..
But to me, they're like the equivalent of "the tea party" in America.. Namely, set up by ordinary citizens.. Hahaha. Yeah, rich ones...
And elemer has it...
You although through all correspondence in this thread to me have seemed to be a very intelligent articulate, obviously educated (I'm guessing) man...
But you ain't half a condescending one..

Lockstep

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

To be honest I know little about Russia's stance on gay rights, is homosexuality illegal like in Saudi Arabia?

It's not technically illegal but is extremely restricted with a Russian law against gay propaganda making it illegal to equate gay relationships with heterosexual ones as happened to this editor
Likewise, the Russian authorities do little to protect gay victims of homophobic attacks

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I said I don't have much time for these corruption indexes but you've twisted it around and said I "discredit" it - very clever!
Do you really have to resort to such a condescending tone?

Why do you not have time for the index? They're compiled by an internationally recognized and reputable NGO which advises the UN (among other activities)
If you don't trust it, that's your call but you need to provide evidence of your own to show why you don't have much for them.

Lockstep

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Yes I know well what NGO's are..
But to me, they're like the equivalent of "the tea party" in America.. Namely, set up by ordinary citizens.. Hahaha. Yeah, rich ones...
And elemer has it...

NGOs are very diverse though, like "the unions" or "the corporations" it's definitely fair to criticise individual ones but not to tar all of them with the same brush due to the actions of some.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You although through all correspondence in this thread to me have seemed to be a very intelligent articulate, obviously educated (I'm guessing) man...
But you ain't half a condescending one..

Actually, you're right here. Reading over my posts, I've been extremely condescending. Sorry about that. I still strongly disagree with you but will try to be (a lot) more civil.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

NGOs are very diverse though, like "the unions" or "the corporations" it's definitely fair to criticise individual ones but not to tar all of them with the same brush due to the actions of some.


Actually, you're right here. Reading over my posts, I've been extremely condescending. Sorry about that. I still strongly disagree with you but will try to be (a lot) more civil.

Well, fair play to you then.. I'm not the most reserved myself... Have strong opinions (I know) but in no way shape or form take offence to people disagreeing with myself.. (Happens alot)...

Here's something I actually accidentally came across have a look all..
Thanks

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/world-congress-families-russia-gay-rights

jimeryan22

I'm not saying this is gospel... And believe me when I say I literally do not have a side in this... But from what I have seen throughout the whole Ukraine process from media mainstream and alternative.. And from using my own logic (wrong or right). This article sort of sums it up for me..
I've read somewhere someone say Dr Paul Craig Roberts a headcase, I don't think this fair, for such an educated and obviously very experienced man in the field as it were... Again have a look an give some opinion..


http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/06/24/can-putins-diplomacy-prevail-washingtons-coercion-paul-craig-roberts/

Harold Weiss

I think it's clear Ukraine is overwhelmingly better off with puppet Oligarchs transferring the wealth of Ukraine into western banks.

Freedom costs and we need the brightest and the best educated people in charge to ensure the best possible deal for western banks.

With the sale of state assets to foreign bankers, Ukrainians can expect to live in a Utopia in the near future, just like Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians and Afghans...as a man would say, the proof is in the pudding.

dnk

Lockstep wrote: »

Source?

Poroshenko is one of ukrainian oligarch. Same time as his business growing hi is working as a minister in Ukraine government.
If you believe that hi got a money for his empire by saving cents from lunches it's ok.

Lockstep wrote: »

No, not Western propaganda. The BBC summarises it quite well
...
But seeing as you think the BBC is Western lies

It's beautiful example of west media propaganda. Thank you.

"Russian TV is dominated by channels that are either run directly by the state or owned by companies with close links to the Kremlin. The government controls Channel One and Russia One - two of the three main federal channels - while state-controlled energy giant Gazprom owns NTV. Critics say independent reporting has suffered as a result. blah-blah-blah"

ok 3 channels controlled by government. Cool! 3 channel of more then 150. Well lot of them have small news content but at least 20 specifically news channels include Euronews, CNN, CNBC, Deutsche Welle and surprise-surprise BBC. All on Russian language.
After that talking about not enough freedom of information in Russia is ridiculous.

Lockstep wrote: »

Source that Russia has had to deal with armed seperatists in the past?

So, no evidence then of Russian sent advisers (even!) to Ukraine.

Lockstep wrote: »

Ljashko is right wing and a nationalist but not a nazi.

right wing nationalist == nazi

Lockstep wrote: »

And all of your information seems to be whatever the Kremlin is spouting. Honestly, you remind me of those Americans who only watch Fox News with a blind adherence to 'MURICA.

It's good logic to tell opponent in English-language internet forum permanently leaving in Dublin that hi is blind and have source of information only Kremlin controlled Russian media, isn't it?

Lockstep wrote: »

At any rate, ironic that you criticise the BBC for propaganda is fairly ironic!
freedomhouse(yup), especially given the state of press "freedom" in Russia.

"Freedom House is a U.S.-based non-governmental organization that conducts research and advocacy on democracy"
What reason to trust that organization? It's just another tool of propaganda. See above about BBC article how badly Russian people informed.