Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Lockstep

dnk wrote: »

Poroshenko is one of ukrainian oligarch. Same time as his business growing hi is working as a minister in Ukraine government.
If you believe that hi got a money for his empire by saving cents from lunches it's ok.

Poroshenko also comes from a well-to-do family and was a successful businessman before he got involved in politics such as his chocolate empire.
I don't think he got his money "by saving cents from lunches" but similar to your "Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis" slogan, you seem hell bent on portraying him as an oligarch.

dnk wrote: »

It's beautiful example of west media propaganda. Thank you.

It seems anything that discredits your claims can be disregarded as Western propaganda. You've just accused the BBC (one of the world's most reputable international news broadcasters as Western propaganda. Similar for Freedom House, a respected NGO)
If you don't agree with what they're saying then challenge it but don't use "It's biased" as a trump card to avoid engaging with news sources that don't fit in with your world view.

dnk wrote: »

"Russian TV is dominated by channels that are either run directly by the state or owned by companies with close links to the Kremlin. The government controls Channel One and Russia One - two of the three main federal channels - while state-controlled energy giant Gazprom owns NTV. Critics say independent reporting has suffered as a result. blah-blah-blah"

ok 3 channels controlled by government. Cool! 3 channel of more then 150. Well lot of them have small news content but at least 20 specifically news channels include Euronews, CNN, CNBC, Deutsche Welle and surprise-surprise BBC. All on Russian language.
After that talking about not enough freedom of information in Russia is ridiculous.

Did you read the articles beyond the first paragraphs?
Attacks on journalists, clampdown on dissenting media sources, internet control and the main TV stations (which account for the majority of Russian news consumption) dominated by the government, two owned by the central government, one by Gazprom (so the government), one by Moscow's government and the state funded RT.

dnk wrote: »

So, no evidence then of Russian sent advisers (even!) to Ukraine.

You didn't ask for that... but seeing as you have now,
here's Putin admitting RUssian troops were in Crimea

dnk wrote: »

right wing nationalist == nazi

No, it does not. Nazi is a specific ideology encompassing a totalitarian, expansionist and racist ideology. It's not the same as regular right wing nationalism. Either you're so ideologically that you can't see the difference or you need to look up the difference between right wing nationalism (American Republicans, Britain's Tories etc) and Nazism.

dnk wrote: »

It's good logic to tell opponent in English-language internet forum permanently leaving in Dublin that hi is blind and have source of information only Kremlin controlled Russian media, isn't it?

I'm not saying you're blind. I'm asking you to provide sources that aren't Kremlin controlled media.

dnk wrote: »

"Freedom House is a U.S.-based non-governmental organization that conducts research and advocacy on democracy"
What reason to trust that organization? It's just another tool of propaganda.

You don't trust it because it's based out of the US and advocates democracy?
Fine, how about RSF although presumably you'll just accuse them of being Western propaganda as well.

dnk wrote: »

See above about BBC article how badly Russian people informed.

What are you referring to here? Please expand.

jimeryan22

Heard about this and then actually found it... Hahahaha. Have a look all

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

Wouldn't get this one being reported by the bbc. Lol

Count Dooku

Lockstep wrote: »

Source?

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV2038_a.html

jimeryan22

Count Dooku wrote: »

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV2038_a.html

Ouch. Pretty damning

Lockstep

Count Dooku wrote: »

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV2038_a.html

This has already appeared in this thread. Nowhere does it prove Poroshenko was an oligarch or corrupt.

K-9

Even if he has questions to answer, what can anyone do? The people voted in fair, democratic elections and it's their choice. Haughey had questions to answer but people kept electing him!

jimeryan22

K-9 wrote: »

Even if he has questions to answer, what can anyone do? The people voted in fair, democratic elections and it's their choice. Haughey had questions to answer but people kept electing him!

Bit of an "ah well" type of opinion isn't it...?

K-9

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Bit of an "ah well" type of opinion isn't it...?

Well, what do you propose doing?

jimeryan22

K-9 wrote: »

Well, what do you propose doing?

I don't propose anything... It's nothing to do with me my family or my countrymen... But.. I just don't have the ah well opinion on it

K-9

Plenty of countries vote in leaders with suspicious pasts. I don't propose doing anything with them either, that isn't an ah well opinion.

Count Dooku

K-9 wrote: »

Even if he has questions to answer, what can anyone do? The people voted in fair, democratic elections and it's their choice. Haughey had questions to answer but people kept electing him!

People voted for politician, who been mentioned by media more than anybody else

Plus media were scaring people that if Poroshenko wont win from first time, then Putin will invade Ukraine
Poroshenko election is just good job of manipulating public opinion and nothing else

jimeryan22

Fair, democratic elections..?? Lol..
Just near pissed myself when reading that little cherub..

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Fair, democratic elections..?? Lol..
Just near pissed myself when reading that little cherub..

What would have made them attain Jimmy's stamp of approval.

What was wrong with them?

jimeryan22

Maybe a legal one...?

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Maybe a legal one...?

Like the one in the east & Crimea?

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

Like the one in the east & Crimea?

Actually, I agree here happy....
But do feel it was a reactionary action.. Still illegal..

Eggy Baby!

Lockstep wrote: »

Plus Russia is one of the worst offenders of the ECtHR.

What you seem to conveniently omit from this "fact" are three things:

- the majority of cases brought against Russia in the ECtHR fail.
- the majority of the cases which succeed are in relation to non-enforcement of judgments, errors made during the course of trials or interrogations etc., not because Putinhitler is crushing freedom of speech or establishment or whatever. AKA they have to do with the inefficiencies and failures of the judicial system/civil service.
- Russia has the largest population in Europe by quite a substantial margin. The rate of cases brought to the ECtHR aren't as comparably numerous as Turkey or Romania. For example, Romania had 88 and Turkey had 124 judgments brought against it in 2013 but Russia had 129. There's only 20 million people in Romania and about 75 million in Turkey. There's 145 million people in Russia....even Hungary had a far, far higher rate of judgments made per capita.

So, while you are technically telling the truth, comparably Russia's situation in the ECtHR is not as bad as you make it out to be (if you actually supplied figures it would have been a less biased statement).

Regarding the statements of Russia as "reactionary", I would agree. It is socially a very reactionary country, but that's just because the electorate has reactionary opinions, not because Putinhitler is enforcing his reactionary agenda on the secretly liberal Russians...

The only thing "progressive" in Russia is the tax scheme.

Hamsey

Who is in charge in the eastern Ukraine? Moscow is distancing itself. EU is condemning them. Are they socialists, communists, anarchists?

Elmer Blooker

Harold Weiss wrote: »

I think it's clear Ukraine is overwhelmingly better off with puppet Oligarchs transferring the wealth of Ukraine into western banks.

Freedom costs and we need the brightest and the best educated people in charge to ensure the best possible deal for western banks.

With the sale of state assets to foreign bankers, Ukrainians can expect to live in a Utopia in the near future, just like Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians and Afghans...as a man would say, the proof is in the pudding.

They move quickly don't they! Welcome to the western world suckers! :P
http://rt.com/business/170436-ukraine-pipes-eu-us/

...... and guess what it was good old "Yats" himself who proposed the bill.
For those of you who can't remember "Yats" is the one who Washington put into power as heard in that **** the EU phone call. He was in the White House within days of being "installed" too.

Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who proposed the bill,

jimeryan22

Apparently. War between Russia and Ukraine planned for middle if July... Us not to be involved... Let's see if it happens..

comongethappy

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Apparently. War between Russia and Ukraine planned for middle if July... Us not to be involved... Let's see if it happens..

And I have annual leave booked in a fortnight!
That's inconvenient.

Keep us posted when all out war is happening won't you?

jimeryan22

comongethappy wrote: »

And I have annual leave booked in a fortnight!
That's inconvenient.

Keep us posted when all out war is happening won't you?

Will do... Just don't plan any trips east

Lockstep

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

What you seem to conveniently omit from this "fact" are three things:
- the majority of cases brought against Russia in the ECtHR fail.

Yes, this is standard with the ECtHR, irrespective of country. I'm not sure what your point is here.
Russia is both the country against which the largest number of complaints are lodged as well as the one with the largest number of breaches.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

- the majority of the cases which succeed are in relation to non-enforcement of judgments, errors made during the course of trials or interrogations etc., not because Putinhitler is crushing freedom of speech or establishment or whatever. AKA they have to do with the inefficiencies and failures of the judicial system/civil service.

Source?
Admittedly it's been a few years since I've studied European human rights law but IIRC, Russia's breaches of the ECtHR were usually related to detention and inhumane treatment of prisoners. Open for correction on this though.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

- Russia has the largest population in Europe by quite a substantial margin. The rate of cases brought to the ECtHR aren't as comparably numerous as Turkey or Romania. For example, Romania had 88 and Turkey had 124 judgments brought against it in 2013 but Russia had 129. There's only 20 million people in Romania and about 75 million in Turkey. There's 145 million people in Russia....even Hungary had a far, far higher rate of judgments made per capita.

The size of a country is not in correlation with the number of breaches: you'd have a point if we were discussing crimes by citizens (where a larger population would mean more people to commit crimes) but the ECHR deals with breaches by states combined with a lack of redress for the victims.
For example, Germany has a larger population than Italy but has been found to breach the ECHR far less often. Likewise, Greece's population is less than 20% of Britain's but has breached the ECHR far more often.
State's breaching justice and failing to provide adequate remedies do not work on a per-capita basis.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

So, while you are technically telling the truth, comparably Russia's situation in the ECtHR is not as bad as you make it out to be (if you actually supplied figures it would have been a less biased statement).

It's hardly a technicality to highlight Russia's

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Regarding the statements of Russia as "reactionary", I would agree. It is socially a very reactionary country, but that's just because the electorate has reactionary opinions, not because Putinhitler is enforcing his reactionary agenda on the secretly liberal Russians...

Yes but we are not just discussing things like immigration and gay marriage. We are discussing Russia's corruption, clampdown on dissenting media and expansionist foreign policy. Likewise, it is a modern state's responsibility to protect its citizens and ensure they're all treated equally, regardless of the will of the masses. The Kremlin's failure to protect LGBT or immigrants from hate-crimes is very dodgy altogether. Democracy is meant to protect minorities from the majority, that's what differentiates it from mob rule.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The only thing "progressive" in Russia is the tax scheme.

Not sure I'd see a flat tax as progressive but fair enough.

cerastes

Lockstep wrote: »

Likewise, it is a modern state's responsibility to protect its citizens and ensure they're all treated equally, regardless of the will of the masses. The Kremlin's failure to protect LGBT or immigrants from hate-crimes is very dodgy altogether. Democracy is meant to protect minorities from the majority, that's what differentiates it from mob rule.

democracy exists in russia? maybe it doesnt then, its a modern states responsibility to protect its citizens? like Ireland, another country with democracy. This democracy lark seems like a figment.

Lockstep

cerastes wrote: »

democracy exists in russia? maybe it doesnt then, its a modern states responsibility to protect its citizens? like Ireland, another country with democracy. This democracy lark seems like a figment.

Can you expand on what you're trying to say here? I can't work out what your post's point is.

jimeryan22

Lockstep wrote: »

Can you expand on what you're trying to say here? I can't work out what your post's point is.

Maybe that democracy's a farce...?

jimeryan22

Sums up democracy....

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorises it and a moral code that glorifies it". Frederic bastiat

cerastes

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Maybe that democracy's a farce...?

thank you, thats what I was meaning,
we should have democracy but, what most have doesnt seem to be, despite claims to the contrary.

Im unsure how whats going on benefits the ordinary people of Ukraine

jimeryan22

Democracy = 51% of the wolves can vote to have the 49% of sheep for dinner...

Crann na Beatha

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