Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

steveblack

It very hard to know what really happened, we might never know.
Somewhere between what the USA and Russia say is true is what really happened.
Just take everything you hear with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Read a good article earlier today, give you something to think about.

"Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris."

We should not rush to judgement, give it a few days and hopefully the guilty will be fully exposed without any doubt.

vadzen

UKRAINIAN DISPATCHERS have changed MH-17 flight path lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g9p9JmfnZUA/U8gxp1KxPNI/AAAAAAAAAH8/qg6sM5BuprU/w1000-h700-no/DNR_Boeng_Crash_2.gif to push the aircraft in civil war area...
Who gave the order?
Source: voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2961-sbityy-malayziyskiy-boing-777-post-obnovlyaetsya.html
P.S. Clever Czech airline has stopped flights in Ukraine sky weeks before.

comongethappy

vadzen wrote: »

UKRAINIAN DISPATCHERS have changed MH-17 flight path lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g9p9JmfnZUA/U8gxp1KxPNI/AAAAAAAAAH8/qg6sM5BuprU/w1000-h700-no/DNR_Boeng_Crash_2.gif to push the aircraft in civil war area...
Who gave the order?
Source: voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2961-sbityy-malayziyskiy-boing-777-post-obnovlyaetsya.html
P.S. Clever Czech airline has stopped flights in Ukraine sky weeks before.

Still trying hard to defend the indefensible?

gandalf

Surprised that the Party policial broadcasts are being allowed to continue from vadzen. No real engament in discussion just pure propaganda info drops.

meglome

steveblack wrote: »

Read a good article earlier today, give you something to think about.

"Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris."

We should not rush to judgement, give it a few days and hopefully the guilty will be fully exposed without any doubt.

Without jumping off topic here that article is comparing apples and oranges. If a plane ploughs intact at speed into a building or the ground the aftermath looks like one thing. If a plane drops from the sky in pieces it looks like something else. There are many images on the net of plane impacts at speed into the ground or buildings and they all look somewhat similar. For some reason 'truthers' fail to see that and also fail to comprehend just how many people (thousands probably) who worked on those sites and somehow have been kept completely quiet.

tbradman

steveblack wrote: »

It very hard to know what really happened, we might never know.
Somewhere between what the USA and Russia say is true is what really happened.
Just take everything you hear with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Read a good article earlier today, give you something to think about.

"Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris."

We should not rush to judgement, give it a few days and hopefully the guilty will be fully exposed without any doubt.

It's not that hard to know what happened. Basically somebody launched a relatively advanced surface to air missile at a civilian airliner which it stuck killing all on-board. Said missile was launched from an area under complete control of Russian separatists who are known to have access to SA-11 SAM systems and who have already shot down a Ukrainian AN-26 travelling at over 20,000ft.

Yes a healthy dose of scepticism is useful, but only when topped with a dollop of common sense.

I'd be interested to see your source for the "good article", do you have the URL or the name of the magazine it was in?

Remember the Pan Am 103 (Lockerbie) wreckage? An explosive device denoted inside the aircraft at 31,000ft and yet who can forget the almost intact cockpit lying on the hillside?

As for the flight that hit the Pentagon, it was travelling at 300-400mph and hit a reinforced concrete building. The Pennsylvania flight was probably travelling even faster when it hit the ground in an almost vertical dive, I'd be more surprised if anything larger then a thimble was found in the wreckage.

One last thing. It is a common misconception that a missile fired at an aircraft physically hits it and explodes destroying the entire airframe. In reality, the missile explodes close to the target, scattering shrapnel in all directions. It is this "cloud" of shrapnel which hits the aircraft in multiple places destroying multiple systems. Depending on what systems fail and how badly the structural integrity is damaged, there is an infinite number of ways the wreckage can break up and be scattered over the country-side.

Black Swan

steveblack wrote: »

Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris.

MOD REMINDER: Let's not drag this thread off-topic by introducing 9/11 conspiracy theories material. There is a separate forum for CT, thanks.

K-9

Mod:

sin_city, I'm sorry but false flag speculation is Conspiracy Theory stuff and should be posted in the relevant forum, that's what it is for, I had to delete the post. Really until reputable media sources start reporting some of the stuff you've listed there's too much speculation and innuendo. Thanks.

sin_city

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

sin_city, I'm sorry but false flag speculation is Conspiracy Theory stuff and should be posted in the relevant forum, that's what it is for, I had to delete the post. Really until reputable media sources start reporting some of the stuff you've listed there's too much speculation and innuendo. Thanks.

When you say reputable....you mean western?

Enough said...you could have researched my posts using declassified government documents and historical news reports even from your "reputable" sources.

I get harassed for posting links and my posts get taken down when I don't....can't win

K-9

sin_city wrote: »

When you say reputable....you mean western?

Enough said...you could have researched my posts using declassified government documents and historical news reports even from your "reputable" sources.

I get harassed for posting links and my posts get taken down when I don't....can't win

This is a politics forum, the CT board is for false flag stuff. It doesn't mean you are censored, just another part of the site caters for it.

I'm also very sorry, but saying the Americans control the Ukranian Government now, CNN's Anderson Cooper was in on it, time stamps on videos etc. that is all very much CT stuff. That's what that board is for, for you to make claims and see if it can be debunked.

If you can't see that, well, we are going to have problems because this politics board isn't what you think it is!

Any queries pm me. Leave questions on moderation off the thread. Thanks.

sin_city

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

sin_city, I'm sorry but false flag speculation is Conspiracy Theory stuff and should be posted in the relevant forum, that's what it is for, I had to delete the post. Really until reputable media sources start reporting some of the stuff you've listed there's too much speculation and innuendo. Thanks.

.

Ok, now the West is backing off saying that Russia had no direct involvement....Do you still think all that BS in the western media from a few days ago still holds up?


There are many theories about the Malaysian flight but I find the most ridiculous one to be that Putin planned this or wanted it.

vadzen

Mod:

Banned.

Black Swan

K-9 wrote: »

Any queries pm me. Leave questions on moderation off the thread. Thanks.

MOD: sin_city in several recent posts on this thread you have continued to argue with moderation in-thread. You are not allowed to do this in our forum or most forums within boards.ie. Further, when clearly asked by mod "Leave questions on moderation off the thread," you ignored this moderator instruction.

2-weeks ban.

Xios

steveblack wrote: »

It very hard to know what really happened, we might never know.
Somewhere between what the USA and Russia say is true is what really happened.
Just take everything you hear with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Read a good article earlier today, give you something to think about.

"Photos are now available of the wreckage from the Malaysian airliner crash. Notice the extensive debris and the large section of fuselage. You are observing remains of an airliner that was hit with a missile at 33,000 feet and fell to impact land. Remember, no such debris was present at the site where the airliner is alleged to have hit the Pentagon and at the alleged crash site in Pennsylvania of the 4th 9/11 hijacked airliner. Give that some thought. No doubt but that the 9/11 Commission will conclude that only Malaysian airliners leave debris."

We should not rush to judgement, give it a few days and hopefully the guilty will be fully exposed without any doubt.

Adding in my thoughts, the two aircraft that crashed on 9/11 were fully loaded with fuel, and were going full speed when they crashed. The were also completely intact at the point of collision, so the aircraft could easily have burnt up from all the jet fuel, the thin aliminium fuselage would melt fairly fast in an extended blaze.

MH17 was hit by an AA missle, which uses flak to take down the aircraft. The flak could have punched holes all across the wings causing a lot of the fuel to leak during the fall, reducing the scale of the fire. Also the aircraft broke up on the way down, shown by the trail of debris.

So comparing the two incidents like for like is completely wrong.

Edit: / I jumped the gun, my points were made already by two others, /facepalm.

steveblack

Don’t believe i have ever met a russian, so i have no reason to hate them, seem to be a lot of hate here for them, i would assume most people posting here have never met a russian either, so the general attitude toward them is sad. Looks like a lot of people here are Daily Mail reader types, full of ill will or just easily led by head lines in the news and dont think for themselves, just believe whatever line the news pushes.
Well anyway it would appear that the west is back tracking from earlier in the week when it was 100% certain the russians shot down the plane.

“The U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.” -earlier in the week the russian did it

“The officials said they did not know who fired the missile” - earlier in the week the russians did it

“The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings” - so Facebook is a reliable source?

“They cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.” - so just a guess.
“No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.” -The russian press conference yesterday had satellite photos proving this to be wrong.

bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-plane-crash-0

There is a lot from both sides that we the public are not been told, i would take a large step back and take a hard look at what the western media is pushing, why do they seem to want war with russia?

Lockstep

steveblack wrote: »

Don’t believe i have ever met a russian, so i have no reason to hate them, seem to be a lot of hate here for them, i would assume most people posting here have never met a russian either, so the general attitude toward them is sad. Looks like a lot of people here are Daily Mail reader types, full of ill will or just easily led by head lines in the news and dont think for themselves, just believe whatever line the news pushes.
Well anyway it would appear that the west is back tracking from earlier in the week when it was 100% certain the russians shot down the plane.

“The U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.” -earlier in the week the russian did it

“The officials said they did not know who fired the missile” - earlier in the week the russians did it

“The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings” - so Facebook is a reliable source?

“They cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.” - so just a guess.
“No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.” -The russian press conference yesterday had satellite photos proving this to be wrong.

bigstory.ap.org/article/us-present-intelligence-data-plane-crash-0

There is a lot from both sides that we the public are not been told, i would take a large step back and take a hard look at what the western media is pushing, why do they seem to want war with russia?

The attitudes in this thread aren't against the Russian people, it's against the Russian state.
The West doesn't want war with Russia: that would be extremely bloody and catastrophic financially and socially for everyone. That said, Russia's actions in Ukraine leave a lot to be desired.

comongethappy

The West wants war with Russia?

- What country has annexed part of Ukraine?
- What country has troops right now in east Ukraine fighting the Ukrainian government?

Is today opposite day?

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

“The U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.” -earlier in the week the russian did it

Nope wrong, the message has been very consistent from everyone bar Russia itself that it was the Pro-Russian back Separatists

“The officials said they did not know who fired the missile” - earlier in the week the russians did it

Again WRONG, what has been said is that the weapon system that fired the fatal missile was based in rebel held territory consistently.

“The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings” - so Facebook is a reliable source?

You take the social media post from the Russian equivalent of Facebook, the phone calls which have been partially verified as authentic and the sound tracks on the earliest released Youtube videos of the crash and the crash site then it is very clear this was a cock up by the Russian backed Separatists.

“They cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.” - so just a guess.
“No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range.” -The russian press conference yesterday had satellite photos proving this to be wrong.

The Russians had Satellite photos of what and when ? You are calling multiple sources from one side as false but seem to be taking the Russians who are under severe pressure now at face value. Hardly objective eh

There is a lot from both sides that we the public are not been told, i would take a large step back and take a hard look at what the western media is pushing, why do they seem to want war with russia?

If peoples wanted war with Putin it would have kicked off after the illegal Crimean land grab. Its obvious that the powers that be are trying to appease a dictator and we all know where that ended last time in Europe.

steveblack

comongethappy wrote: »

- What country has troops right now in east Ukraine fighting the Ukrainian government?

There is zero evidence of russian soldiers fighting in the east ukraine. None whatsoever, if there was any it would be all over the news. Not a peep about about russian soldiers in the east has been reported any where.
Where is your evidence of this?

comongethappy

steveblack wrote: »

There is zero evidence of russian soldiers fighting in the east ukraine. None whatsoever, if there was any it would be all over the news. Not a peep about about russian soldiers

Russia's war in Ukraine is months old now.... Ye of short memories.

Some few of us may remember Channel 4 & Guardian correspondents interviewing "protestors" in east Ukraine who (at the time) were happy to say they were Russian soldiers.

Some even telling their units were transfered from the annexed Crimea.

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

Nope wrong, the message has been very consistent from everyone bar Russia itself that it was the Pro-Russian back Separatists



Again WRONG, what has been said is that the weapon system that fired the fatal missile was based in rebel held territory consistently.



You take the social media post from the Russian equivalent of Facebook, the phone calls which have been partially verified as authentic and the sound tracks on the earliest released Youtube videos of the crash and the crash site then it is very clear this was a cock up by the Russian backed Separatists.



The Russians had Satellite photos of what and when ? You are calling multiple sources from one side as false but seem to be taking the Russians who are under severe pressure now at face value. Hardly objective eh




If peoples wanted war with Putin it would have kicked off after the illegal Crimean land grab. Its obvious that the powers that be are trying to appease a dictator and we all know where that ended last time in Europe.

Did you even read the link?

Ukrainian authorities have refused to release transcripts of air traffic control conversations with pilots of the plane. -Why if nothing to hide?

steveblack

“Nearly 300 innocent lives were taken—men, women, children, infants—who had nothing to do with the crisis in Ukraine. Their deaths are an outrage of unspeakable proportions.” – President Barack Obama on the plane crash in Ukraine.

“War is tough, and I said that publicly and I’ll say it again. We defend Israel’s right to do what it is doing …” – Secretary of State John Kerry, asked about slaughter of several hundred civilians in Gaza.

Operation Northwoods
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

US lies and hypocrisy, they are doing it again.
The U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia,if they did it would be on the news.
Officials said they did not know who fired the missile.
In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said.
The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.
But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

Now my gut feeling is the Russians showed the US some intel behind closed doors that shows the ukrainians shot down the plane and they are giving the US a few days to distance themselves from the ukrainians version of events.
At the start of the week the US was certain the separatists shot down the plane, now they are back tracking very slowly.

Lets make it interesting here on boards with a little bet, i reckon by 1st august it will be the Ukrianians who have been proved to have shot down the plane.
If i am wrong i get a 1 month ban from the politics forum.
If you believe the separatists or russians did it you get a 1 month ban.
Who wants a piece of this bet, either put up or shut up.
Nail your colours to the mast, we will see who has the courage of their convictions.

[MOD]Betting with bans seems somehow...inappropriate, and I'm afraid we decline to substantiate any such transaction.[/MOD]

comongethappy

steveblack wrote: »

Now my gut feeling is....

That's it then.
Case closed!

steveblack

comongethappy wrote: »

That's it then.
Case closed!

Do you care to bet?
All talk with nothing to back it up with?

comongethappy

steveblack wrote: »

Do you care to bet?
All talk with nothing to back it up with?

Talk?

I proved you wrong a couple of posts back.... Ivan does indeed have troops in Ukraine, he said so himself.

So silly gesturing isn't going to stop you being taken to school again & again by the posters here!

uck51js9zml2yt

I was talking to a Slovak border police man today who works on the Ukraine border. Met him in Slovakia.
I was surprised to hear that they are not getting any Ukrainians over the border. He's reporting that all is quite on the western side of the country.

Esel

Elise Salmon Missile wrote: »

I was talking to a Slovak border police man today who works on the Ukraine border. Met him in Slovakia.
I was surprised to hear that they are not getting any Ukrainians over the border. He's reporting that all is quite on the western side of the country.

Not really surprising that western Ukraine is quiet, though?

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

Did you even read the link?

Ukrainian authorities have refused to release transcripts of air traffic control conversations with pilots of the plane. -Why if nothing to hide?

Who knows maybe they are releasing them to the investigating body first?

Apart from this you have to concede that the most likely explanation is that this downing and illegal killing of 298 people is a mess up from the Pro-Russian Rebels side. It's called Occam's razor, look it up

gandalf

Elise Salmon Missile wrote: »

I was talking to a Slovak border police man today who works on the Ukraine border. Met him in Slovakia.
I was surprised to hear that they are not getting any Ukrainians over the border. He's reporting that all is quite on the western side of the country.

No Russians sneaking over that side with weapons trying to destabilise the country, that's why its quiet.

It's hard to keep a country peaceful when your more powerful neighbour is undermining peace by means of a localised proxy war.

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Russia's war in Ukraine is months old now.... Ye of short memories.

Some few of us may remember Channel 4 & Guardian correspondents interviewing "protestors" in east Ukraine who (at the time) were happy to say they were Russian soldiers.

Some even telling their units were transfered from the annexed Crimea.

months old? It's much older than that. You probably are not aware of what happened in Ukraine during WW2.