Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Conmaicne Mara

czx wrote: »

That's exactly what it means.

Due to the relative strength of the West we are living in one of the safest, most prosperous times in history

I wonder did the Romans think that

czx

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I wonder did the Romans think that

I think we are in a better position to judge now, compared to Rome.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

tomh903

Christ, social media is wild with speculation of Polish troops being called up and moving to the border with Ukraine. No smoke without fire...

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

tomh903

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

"Apparently" True http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,wojskowosc?zobacz%2Fprzegrupowanie-w-polskiej-armii-w-zwiazku-z-kryzysem-na-ukrainie-

Once Poland gets involved, NATO are automatically pulled in.

spank_inferno

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

"Apparently" True http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,wojskowosc?zobacz%2Fprzegrupowanie-w-polskiej-armii-w-zwiazku-z-kryzysem-na-ukrainie-

Sorry, on a mobile.
What does this link say??

Manach

From what I remember for the Cold war days, the Poles were some of the best regarded of the Warsaw pact forces. Given that the memory of the 1920s war with Russia where they were successful with only a scratch force, then this is a rather interesting step.

ardmacha

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

"Apparently" True http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,wojskowosc?zobacz%2Fprzegrupowanie-w-polskiej-armii-w-zwiazku-z-kryzysem-na-ukrainie-

You could potentially have people beginning to flee from Ukraine, for instance.

fergus1001

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

"Apparently" True http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,wojskowosc?zobacz%2Fprzegrupowanie-w-polskiej-armii-w-zwiazku-z-kryzysem-na-ukrainie-

cnn and other media havent picked this up,

translated it and they are just doing drills is all

Red Crow

ardmacha wrote: »

You could potentially have people beginning to flee from Ukraine, for instance.

Not into Poland. Only persons with residency in border towns have any access into Poland and that policy has not changed.

I'm not surprised that Poland is getting its troops ready. The Russians are going to do something stupid and we'll be at war in 3 weeks.

Conmaicne Mara

tomh903 wrote: »

Christ, social media is wild with speculation of Polish troops being called up and moving to the border with Ukraine. No smoke without fire...

Routine training unrelated to situation in Ukraine

@mod_pl for the Twitter account of the Polish Ministry of Defense.

bobcoffee

seems russia today is reporting something interesting.
bascially.. that Ukraine when this new gov formed passed a law that all laws are to be in Ukraine only.
thus removing a lot of people from the political process.
very interesting indeed and would take that as pinch of salt.

be strange thing for our media to leave out.

Manach

Whilst Russian Today might be a tad biased, I've also seen that from other media sources about a more nationalist stance by the new government.

Tea drinker

bobcoffee wrote: »

seems russia today is reporting something interesting.
bascially.. that Ukraine when this new gov formed passed a law that all laws are to be in Ukraine only.
thus removing a lot of people from the political process.
very interesting indeed and would take that as pinch of salt.

be strange thing for our media to leave out.

Nothing strange about it. Also the opposition are borderline neo Nazi's and have called for expulsion of the muscovite and jews. Banning the Russian language as you mentioned is a very provocative act as well, no wonder Russia is involved and we are lying about why as usual.

youtube!

Could this thing lead to WW3 ? Tbh I am pretty freaked reading some of the posts above, is it likely ??

Conmaicne Mara

youtube! wrote: »

Could this thing lead to WW3 ? Tbh I am pretty freaked reading some of the posts above, is it likely ??

No.

Conmaicne Mara

Tea drinker wrote: »

Also the opposition are borderline neo Nazi's

Saw some unsettling photos of SS type salutes on Twitter alright, if not photoshopped then worrying.

Marhay70

Russia are likely to push this as far as they think they can get away with but will not risk all out war with that west which would almost certainly lead to their destruction. Russia and the West have been fighting proxy wars all over the world for years now but have always baulked at direct confrontation.
Putin may be many things but fool, he is not.

Jelle1880

Tea drinker wrote: »

Nothing strange about it. Also the opposition are borderline neo Nazi's and have called for expulsion of the muscovite and jews. Banning the Russian language as you mentioned is a very provocative act as well, no wonder Russia is involved and we are lying about why as usual.

What ?

The protesters in Ukraine are made up of people from the entire political spectrum.

You'll have your right wing nutters, your lefties,...

As for 'no wonder Russia is involved': What business is it of them what laws are voted in another country ?

It's a very nationalist move by the Ukrainians, but that's all it is.

Nodin

RahenyD5 wrote: »

Does anyone reckon the outcome out of this will be a slimmed down western Ukraine, plus Kiev, joining the EU and Russia reabsorbing Crimea and eastern Ukraine as new provinces?

Or them becoming new states allied to Russia. The worst scenario here is not actually Russian military vs Ukrainian, but pro-Russian groupings vs Ukranian nationalist groupings - a civil war, with all the grudge settling that would entail.

K-9

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Jew hating posters need to be reported & perma-banned. Totally reprehensible.

Mod:

Nobody reported anything. I don't see any Jew hating posts myself either.

Conas wrote: »

Well in the dealings with Iran, for you to say that Israel has no influence on US foreign policy, then you are telling an out and out lie. Just read the recent 'Nuclear Free Iran Act' that AIPAC tried to have pushed through Congress only for Obama to threaten a veto. They warmonger against Iran every day of the week. Try to lure America into yet another war. No country in the world has more influence on the US than Israel. They also get $3 billion in foreign aid every year.

Like I said, this thread is about Ukraine.

You won't be able to emotionally blackmail me.

Like you said this thread is about Ukraine, nothing to do with Iran, so please stick to the topic.

bobcoffee wrote: »

meanwhile in america 300 protesters got arrested at the white house over some pipe line, so reports says.
I 100% agree with Conas but it is not just the american media, just look at BBC as they all of a sudden think invading a country is bad.
far too many people still believe that we (western world) are the good guys or even close to being.
we bomb and torture plenty of civilians but yet still hold our heads up so high.
suppose as long as they are not white its ok?

As above, stick to the topic at hand, arrests over a protest in Washington has nothing to do with it.

Also, everybody focus on the content of the posts and debate that, no more personal attacks. Thank You.

Godge

Nodin wrote: »

Or them becoming new states allied to Russia. The worst scenario here is not actually Russian military vs Ukrainian, but pro-Russian groupings vs Ukranian nationalist groupings - a civil war, with all the grudge settling that would entail.

Agreed, Yugoslavia mark II. Rwanda Mark II.

Not a lot the West did to cause it and not a lot the West can do to solve it, yet the usual anti-Americanism resurfaces here.

How many times have we seen Russia veto UN resolutions against Gadaffi, Saddam and other dictators on the basis of non-interference yet here they are, interfering in Ukraine?

wendell borton

Tea drinker wrote: »

Nothing strange about it. Also the opposition are borderline neo Nazi's and have called for expulsion of the muscovite and jews. Banning the Russian language as you mentioned is a very provocative act as well, no wonder Russia is involved and we are lying about why as usual.

Your just as likely to see those types on the Russia side as well.

Conas

youtube! wrote: »

Could this thing lead to WW3 ? Tbh I am pretty freaked reading some of the posts above, is it likely ??

The only way this will get out of hand is if Obama lets it get out of hand. Threatening to sanction Russia economically is not a good idea, threatening to isolate Russia is also not a good idea either. Don't be suprised if Obama is under pressure to flex some muscle from the hawks in Washington. But as everyone knows Russia aint no Iraq or Afghanistan, nor will they be any push over, or a country you can boss around.

I put it to you this way, if Americans were living in Mexico, and their was a coup and overthrow of that goverment, placing those Americans lives at risk. Obama would do exactly what Putin is doing in Ukraine. But since the West has demonized Putin every chance they get, it isn't looked up upon that way.

derry

This very interesting blog
http://allinaday.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/ukrainian-crisis/

clearly from some sort of Irish man who goes to Ukraine spells out lots of interesting facts with a Irish flavour

Possibly the most important fact is that Crimea is mostly Russian something like 90% Russians so Russia cant really invade region they already occupy with bases as they merely move troops around

This emmision slide the slider to 1hour 31 mins and a expert called Joel Skousen explains about the developments in Crimea and Ukraine and why Russia probably stirred the pot to make Ukraine mess now and how the global elite plan to pilfer the country dry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBeQ2kjS_bc

Derry

josip

derry wrote: »

Possibly the most important fact is that Crimea is mostly Russian something like 90% Russians so Russia cant really invade region they already occupy with bases as they merely move troops around

Derry

Do you mean "probably the most incorrect fact"?

According to Wikipedia The Crimean population is %58.32 Russian.
What's your source for 90%

FURET

A fascinating opinion piece from The Asia Times' Spengler in 2008, focusing on Putin's geopolitical strategy, ethnic Russians, Russia's near-abroad, and the future of Ukraine: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH19Ag04.html

On the night of November 22, 2004, then-Russian president - now premier - Vladimir Putin watched the television news in his dacha near Moscow. People who were with Putin that night report his anger and disbelief at the unfolding "Orange" revolution in Ukraine. "They lied to me," Putin said bitterly of the United States. "I'll never trust them again." The Russians still can't fathom why the West threw over a potential strategic alliance for Ukraine. They underestimate the stupidity of the West.

American hardliners are the first to say that they feel stupid next to Putin. Victor Davis Hanson wrote on August 12 [1] of Moscow's "sheer diabolic brilliance" in Georgia, while Colonel Ralph Peters, a columnist and television commentator, marveled on August 14 [2], "The Russians are alcohol-sodden barbarians, but now and then they vomit up a genius ... the empire of the czars hasn't produced such a frightening genius since [Joseph] Stalin." The superlatives recall an old observation about why the plots of American comic books need clever super-villains and stupid super-heroes to even the playing field. Evidently the same thing applies to superpowers.

The fact is that all Russian politicians are clever. The stupid ones are all dead. By contrast, America in its complacency promotes dullards. A deadly miscommunication arises from this asymmetry. The Russians cannot believe that the Americans are as stupid as they look, and conclude that Washington wants to destroy them. That is what the informed Russian public believes, judging from last week's postings on web forums, including this writer's own.

These perceptions are dangerous because they do not stem from propaganda, but from a difference in existential vantage point. Russia is fighting for its survival, against a catastrophic decline in population and the likelihood of a Muslim majority by mid-century. The Russian Federation's scarcest resource is people. It cannot ignore the 22 million Russians stranded outside its borders after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, nor, for that matter, small but loyal ethnicities such as the Ossetians. Strategic encirclement, in Russian eyes, prefigures the ethnic disintegration of Russia, which was a political and cultural entity, not an ethnic state, from its first origins.

...

Dull people know that clever people are cleverer than they are, but they do not know why. The nekulturny Colonel Ralph Peters, a former US military intelligence analyst, is impressed by the tactical success of Russian arms in Georgia, but cannot fathom the end-game to which these tactics contribute. He writes, "The new reality is that a nuclear, cash-rich and energy-blessed Russia doesn't really worry too much whether its long-term future is bleak, given problems with Muslim minorities, poor life-expectancy rates, and a declining population. Instead, in the here and now, it has a window of opportunity to reclaim prestige and weaken its adversaries."

Precisely the opposite is true: like a good chess player, Putin has the end-game in mind as he fights for control of the board in the early stages of the game. Demographics stand at the center of Putin's calculation, and Russians are the principal interest that the Russian Federation has in its so-called near abroad. The desire of a few hundred thousand Abkhazians and South Ossetians to remain in the Russian Federation rather than Georgia may seem trivial, but Moscow is setting a precedent that will apply to tens of millions of prospective citizens of the Federation - most controversially in Ukraine.

...

Well worth a considered read. A very prescient piece 6 years on...

Jelle1880

Conas wrote: »

The only way this will get out of hand is if Obama lets it get out of hand. Threatening to sanction Russia economically is not a good idea, threatening to isolate Russia is also not a good idea either. Don't be suprised if Obama is under pressure to flex some muscle from the hawks in Washington. But as everyone knows Russia aint no Iraq or Afghanistan, nor will they be any push over, or a country you can boss around.

I put it to you this way, if Americans were living in Mexico, and their was a coup and overthrow of that goverment, placing those Americans lives at risk. Obama would do exactly what Putin is doing in Ukraine. But since the West has demonized Putin every chance they get, it isn't looked up upon that way.

Nobody is putting lives at risk in Crimea though.

fergus1001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do they? Again this isn't the Soviet Union we're talking about. NATO's industrial capability (should war break out) is far greater than Russia's.

nukes, war breaks out with america ? we get nuked

a cornered bear is a very dangerous thing indeed