Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

steveblack

Flight MH17 is completely out of the news.
We were promised voice and data recorder analyses, we were told that experts would be visiting the area and investigating the scene. We were told that various kind of proofs of this and that will be provided. And now nothing, not a peep.
If it looks like bullsxxt, smells like bullsxxt, there is not need for the taste test, its definitely bullsxxt, the ukranians shot that plane out of the sky.

WakeUp

comongethappy wrote: »

Is that fact or an opinion?

I assume if the contents of the convoy arrive in Donetsk in 2 days time you will say thats only because the wicked west allowed it?

So how do you feel about the fact the west is backing nazis in Ukraine? are nazis not wicked? what are your thoughts on that I'd be interested to hear them, thanks...

steveblack

The New Straits Times is Malaysia's oldest newspaper ,public perception is that it serves as a propaganda mouthpiece for the ruling government.
It published this the other day,
" INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it."

www.nst.com.my/node/20925

No wonder the western media has gone quite about the plane.

Lemming

steveblack wrote: »

The New Straits Times is Malaysia's oldest newspaper ,public perception is that it serves as a propaganda mouthpiece for the ruling government.
It published this the other day,
" INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it."

www.nst.com.my/node/20925

No wonder the western media has gone quite about the plane.

Ummm, not to put too fine a point on it; but the source for the article was GlobalResearch, who use RussiaToday extensively as their own source, and the site is owned by Michel Chossudovsky who whilst holding Canadian citizenship is the son of Russian immigrants, and has past form for making absurd allegations regarding the Bosnian-Serb war, holocaust denial, and is a conspiracy theorist.

Take what you will from that.

AbusesToilets

Because it's crazy to think that an investigation might take a minute or two...

K-9

steveblack wrote: »

The New Straits Times is Malaysia's oldest newspaper ,public perception is that it serves as a propaganda mouthpiece for the ruling government.
It published this the other day,
" INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it."

www.nst.com.my/node/20925

No wonder the western media has gone quite about the plane.

As you said, it's a propaganda mouth piece so pinch of salt and all that.

K-9

WakeUp wrote: »

So how do you feel about the fact the west is backing nazis in Ukraine? are nazis not wicked? what are your thoughts on that I'd be interested to hear them, thanks...

How do you know the West is actively backing them? The link you provided doesn't state that. If it is your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's fact. There's a war going on, various undesirables on both sides.

steveblack

K-9 wrote: »

As you said, it's a propaganda mouth piece so pinch of salt and all that.

A propaganda mouth piece of the malaysian government. Do you not think it significant it is breaking away from the official USA/EU version?

AbusesToilets

I wouldn't take any speculative newspaper article as being particularly significant. I'd wait for the results of the official investigation being conducted; but that would get in the way of your anti-Ukrainian posting.

WakeUp

K-9 wrote: »

How do you know the West is actively backing them? The link you provided doesn't state that. If it is your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's fact. There's a war going on, various undesirables on both sides.

Is the west not backing Ukraine?..Ukraine is sending these filthy nazi hoards into battle - thousands of them. so disregard the nazis the western backed nazis because a war is going on? is that what you're saying to me...

"A former history student and amateur boxer, Mr Biletsky is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”

Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis. “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister. “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

And people want these filthy nazi nut job fascists in the EU and NATO. staggering.

AbusesToilets

Do you have filthy Nazis macro'd? Are you being paid for how many times you can say it per post?

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Do you have filthy Nazis macro'd? Are you being paid for how many times you can say it per post?

Is it not sitting well with you? the fact the west is in bed with these fascists and backing them.. or would you prefer it was ignored. don't be angry with me if it's not sitting well and not suppose to be part of the script. that's not my problem.

K-9

Tbh I'm kind of lost with the point you are making. The West, whoever they are, certainly haven't troops on the ground, indeed many criticise it for not doing enough. Unfortunately there are Nazis on both sides, that's Nationalist wars like this. Maybe the Ukranian backs theirs, why you go on and state the West are backing Nazis is beyond me, I mean who is surprised Nazis responded to Nazis on the other side?

WakeUp

K-9 wrote: »

Tbh I'm kind of lost with the point you are making. The West, whoever they are, certainly haven't troops on the ground, indeed many criticise it for not doing enough. Unfortunately there are Nazis on both sides, that's Nationalist wars like this. Maybe the Ukranian backs theirs, why you go on and state the West are backing Nazis is beyond me, I mean who is surprised Nazis responded to Nazis on the other side?

Nationalist wars you mean civil wars?..the west would be the Americans and the EU.. the west is clearly backing nazis by backing Ukraine or are you saying they aren't? ..

AbusesToilets

Why wouldn't the western governments support the Ukraine against Russian meddling? You can call the Ukrainian government Nazis all you want, at the end of the day, this situation was created because the Russians chose to make it so.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Why wouldn't the western governments support the Ukraine against Russian meddling? You can call the Ukrainian government Nazis all you want, at the end of the day, this situation was created because the Russians chose to make it so.

No it wasn't. so willfully ignore the nazis in government in Kiev and on the battlefield then? as it doesn't sit well can't be supporting nazis right. I find that hypocritical in the extreme. Ukraine is not in the EU nor in NATO why is the west getting involved it's none of their business.
______________________________
Fresh evidence of how the West lured Ukraine into its orbit:

"The West is demonising President Putin when what set this crisis in motion were recklessly provocative moves to absorb Ukraine into the EU

How odd it has been to read all those accounts of Europe sleepwalking into war in the summer of 1914, and how such madness must never happen again, against the background of the most misrepresented major story of 2014 – the gathering crisis between Russia and the West over Ukraine, as we watch developments in that very nasty civil war, with 20,000 Russian troops massing on the border."

There was never any way that this drive to suck the original cradle of Russian identity into the Brussels empire was not going to provoke Moscow to react – not least due to the prospect that its only warm-water ports, in Crimea, might soon be taken over by Nato.

And still scarcely reported here have been the billions of dollars and euros the West has been more or less secretively pouring into Ukraine to promote the cause: not just to prop up its bankrupt government and banking system, but to fund scores of bogus “pro-European” groups making up what the EU calls “civil society”.

However dangerous this crisis becomes, it is the West which has brought it about; and our hysterical vilifying of Russia is more reminiscent of that fateful mood in the summer of 1914 than we should find it comfortable to contemplate."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11023577/A-very-contemporary-centenary-with-the-conflict-with-Russia.html

Sooner rather than later rightly or wrongly Putin is going to go phuck this whip his shirt off and his tanks and army are going across that border. and those nazis and anyone else who gets in the way are going to be obliterated. then it's on.

AbusesToilets

Lured the Ukraine into it's orbit. Sensationalize much? Why is it strange that the Ukraine might want to move more towards Europe, with it's more open economies and away from Russia, which has a long history of oppression and tyranny against it? How reckless of the west to give support to a country, especially against a Russia that is becoming more and more dictatorial and repressive.

The mind boggles. Should the west be supporting Russia's continued efforts to undermine Ukrainian sovereignty?

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Lured the Ukraine into it's orbit. Sensationalize much? Why is it strange that the Ukraine might want to move more towards Europe, with it's more open economies and away from Russia, which has a long history of oppression and tyranny against it? How reckless of the west to give support to a country, especially against a Russia that is becoming more and more dictatorial and repressive.

The mind boggles. Should the west be supporting Russia's continued efforts to undermine Ukrainian sovereignty?

Know much about geopolitics do you? in fairyland all those nice things you mention for Ukraine could happen and it's cool - meanwhile back in the real world where the bigger powers have perceived spheres of influence and interests - doesn't work like that I'm afraid. is just how it is .the west have picked their side alright , in a civil war, and their side has lots of nazis on the team which I'm aware you're wilfully ignoring .the west should mind their own business and stay out of it but I fear it's too late for that. involving themselves in Ukraine for their own greedy self interests is beyond reckless. and by the way if you're going to dismiss the western backed Kiev nazis , pretend they don't exist as it suits , you really can't be up on your high horse over Russian oppression or whatever. the irony.

aloyisious

Just on RTE radio that the convoy is moving to Rostov. Info source not mentioned. However, when I googled for location of Rostov re the border, this item popped up.... RTE interview on now mentioned that ICRC are not doing what the Russian Govt spokespersons claim, in regard to the convoy, that they have no input into it.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworld-europe-28783373&ei=xH_sU4nsL62O7Qb03YCgDQ&usg=AFQjCNHsVuRmr0ZrKMmtdgmBV8iE6wznwQ

Elmer Blooker

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Lured the Ukraine into it's orbit. Sensationalize much? Why is it strange that the Ukraine might want to move more towards Europe, with it's more open economies and away from Russia, which has a long history of oppression and tyranny against it? How reckless of the west to give support to a country, especially against a Russia that is becoming more and more dictatorial and repressive.

The mind boggles. Should the west be supporting Russia's continued efforts to undermine Ukrainian sovereignty?

Know much about geopolitics do you ? - to quote wakeup.
The Ukrainians mean nothing to the US/NATO, they are only mere pawns to be used and it doesn't really matter to them how many of them die or are going to die. Wherever the US interferes it always ends up in a bloodbath!
As for MH17....... now who could have done that? The black boxes are in the UK so I'm expecting a full impartial and thourough inquiry.
* the AH MH17 thread has gone extremely quiet for some reason? The "Putin the terrorist did it" tin foil hat brigade seem to have disappeared?

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

they are only mere pawns to be used and it doesn't really matter to them how many of them die or are going to die.

Could have sworn you were talking about the Kremlin there?

As for MH17....... now who could have done that? The black boxes are in the UK so I'm expecting a full impartial and thourough inquiry.

If you have any evidence of failed impartiality on the part of the staff at the Air Accident Investigation Branch you are welcome to provide it.....

...... I'll hazard a guess you won't though.

Release yourself from your hate Elmer.
Tolerating life in this evil wicked West must take a severe toll on your health!

K-9

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Know much about geopolitics do you ? - to quote wakeup.
The Ukrainians mean nothing to the US/NATO, they are only mere pawns to be used and it doesn't really matter to them how many of them die or are going to die. Wherever the US interferes it always ends up in a bloodbath!
As for MH17....... now who could have done that? The black boxes are in the UK so I'm expecting a full impartial and thourough inquiry.
* the AH MH17 thread has gone extremely quiet for some reason? The "Putin the terrorist did it" tin foil hat brigade seem to have disappeared?

Replaced by the Ukranian Government tin foil hat brigade!

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Could have sworn you were talking about the Kremlin there?



If you have any evidence of failed impartiality on the part of the staff at the Air Accident Investigation Branch you are welcome to provide it.....

...... I'll hazard a guess you won't though.

Release yourself from your hate Elmer.
Tolerating life in this evil wicked West must take a severe toll on your health!

Another sarcastic post from "happy"
I can tell you here and now that the outcome of the inquiry will be "inconclusive, probably shot down by pro Russians" - those who gave the order to shoot down MH17 will be protected as those in high places always are.
You accusing of hate!! Your hatred of Russians just falls short of racism!
edit: I am not accusing you of racism for one minute, I just find your anti Russian sentiments a bit ott at times.

SeanW

steveblack wrote: »

If it looks like bullsxxt, smells like bullsxxt, there is not need for the taste test, its definitely bullsxxt, the ukranians shot that plane out of the sky.

You have evidence of this?

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

the medicine and baby food will not be arriving in Donetsk - so says this statement, no doubt supplied by the US embassy in Kiev.

Yes, medicine and baby food, that's why Russia is doing an end run around an International Committee of the Red Cross?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11033326/Russian-aid-convoy-resumes-journey-to-Ukraine.html

Why avoid co-operation with the ICRC if these trucks are only carrying "humanitarian relief?"

Elmer Blooker

I haven't heard any evidence that Russia is refusing to cooperate with the ICRC.
It's becoming more ridiculous by the day! On July 17th the separatists were able to move a BUK missile launcher back and forth across the border with impunity ( so said Twitter and YouTube so it must be true) Now they have to hide weapons among humanitarian aid - a Trojan horse
Who makes up this stuff? Do some people actually believe this?

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I haven't heard any evidence that Russia is refusing to cooperate with the ICRC.

To date, the ICRC have not been provided with information that they have requested by the Russians, and are - what would appear to be so - being kept willfully in the dark about it.

That state of affairs is not cooperation in any book.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

Know much about geopolitics do you? in fairyland all those nice things you mention for Ukraine could happen and it's cool - meanwhile back in the real world where the bigger powers have perceived spheres of influence and interests - doesn't work like that I'm afraid. is just how it is .the west have picked their side alright , in a civil war, and their side has lots of nazis on the team which I'm aware you're wilfully ignoring .the west should mind their own business and stay out of it but I fear it's too late for that. involving themselves in Ukraine for their own greedy self interests is beyond reckless. and by the way if you're going to dismiss the western backed Kiev nazis , pretend they don't exist as it suits , you really can't be up on your high horse over Russian oppression or whatever. the irony.

Silly me, I didn't realise that the Ukraine is totally at the whim of these "Great Powers" and unable to make decisions for itself. The majority of former eastern block states of the USSR have gravitated away from Russia and towards the EU since independence, Ukraine being no exception to that. Given Putin's desire for a communist style renaissance in Russian society, it's hardly unsurprising that Russia would look to undermine this.

karma_

SeanW wrote: »

You have evidence of this?

Yes, medicine and baby food, that's why Russia is doing an end run around an International Committee of the Red Cross?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11033326/Russian-aid-convoy-resumes-journey-to-Ukraine.html

Why avoid co-operation with the ICRC if these trucks are only carrying "humanitarian relief?"

Lemming wrote: »

To date, the ICRC have not been provided with information that they have requested by the Russians, and are - what would appear to be so - being kept willfully in the dark about it.

That state of affairs is not cooperation in any book.

I got this info from reddit but it's relevant and contrary to what you are saying.

Quick Update on most twitter notes: (in case people haven't been reading them.)
1) The convoy (current count 240+ vehicles) is now assembling in a field off the M4 Donets'k Junction lined and will presumably cross the border here.
This crossing is monitored by the OSCE.
2) Journalists have been allowed to examine the contents of trucks. (and found civvy supplies)
3) The reported 'military command' vehicle's have been discovered to be Repair Vehicles.
4) The ICRC is now on site with the convoy (but hasn't talked to journalists yet).
5) No one has yet reported an actual military presence with the convoy itself though military vehicles have previously passed it and are reported to be close by.
[Edit] 6) Courtney Weaver (Financial Times) reports the crew consists of volunteers / ex-sevice men.

Also from same source, these journos are with the convoy.

Roland Oliphant (The Telegraph)
Steve Rosenberg (BBC News)
Shaun Walker (The Guardian)
Andrew Roth (The New York Times)
Alexander Roslyakov (The Associated Press)
Courtney Weaver (Financial Times)

aloyisious

According to RTE radio news, Vlad was in the Crimean Parliament today and reportedly told those there that Russia would NOT get involved into conflict with Western Nations over the Ukraine affair. I don't know if that is absolutely a true and correct translation of his speech in it's entirety (it's probably what was seen as important by the media in the speech). If it is all that he said, it could be said to be a broad hint to belligerent forces directly involved in fighting that Russian State Armed Forces would not get involved willy-nilly on their behalf, and an olive-branch to opponents of his Ukraine policy in the West, and other parts of Europe, spoken and diplomatically signalled to him.

One of today's Irish Papers mentioned that due to the sanctions, Rosneft had asked the state for a subvention of several Billion Roubles, as it was unable to meet bank loan repayments due, and that the request was denied.

comongethappy

With 270-ish queued up tomorrow to cross the border are the Red Cross going to inspect them?

They don't claim affiliation with the convoy, so technically they are under no obligation to do anything.

Combing over that many lorries in the August sun ain't going to be easy or quick.