Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

aloyisious

comongethappy wrote: »

With 270-ish queued up tomorrow to cross the border are the Red Cross going to inspect them?

They don't claim affiliation with the convoy, so technically they are under no obligation to do anything.

Combing over that many lorries in the August sun ain't going to be easy or quick.

Probably not necessary as the border crossing the convoy was reportedly going to was, again reportedly, in the hands of the separatists, not the Ukrainian Govt

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Silly me, I didn't realise that the Ukraine is totally at the whim of these "Great Powers" and unable to make decisions for itself. The majority of former eastern block states of the USSR have gravitated away from Russia and towards the EU since independence, Ukraine being no exception to that. Given Putin's desire for a communist style renaissance in Russian society, it's hardly unsurprising that Russia would look to undermine this.

Now now, nobody insinuated you were silly you did that. you can wilfully ignore Russian interests in Ukraine if you like , sort of like the rampaging Kiev nazi hoards willfully ignore them too that seems to be the case for most of the Putin is evil brigade. maybe he is I don't know I don't particularly like the man or his policies or the fact he annexed Crimea. still doesn't change the fact Russia has interests and by attempting to bring Ukraine into the EU they were always going to act. doesn't make it right but that's how it is. Ukraine will never be a member of the EU or NATO and personally I'm quite happy about that . I don't like nazis they offend me. I don't want them anywhere near the EU and the idea of them in NATO is actually funny. Ukraine and Georgia are Russian red lines it isn't right but that's how it is. but you continue to ignore that reality if it makes you feel better. just like the Kiev nazi brigades. all good.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

you can wilfully ignore Russian interests in Ukraine if you like

Whats funny is that Ukraine is an independent country and yet you seem to think russia can do whatever it likes to the place.

And yet you're horrified that the USA even comments on the situation.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine will never be a member of the EU or NATO and personally I'm quite happy about that .

So the russian propaganda message is that the west should support putin invading ukraine because its full of nazis??

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Whats funny is that Ukraine is an independent country and yet you seem to think russia can do whatever it likes to the place.

And yet you're horrified that the USA even comments on the situation.

InTheTrees wrote: »

So the russian propaganda message is that the west should support putin invading ukraine because its full of nazis??

Yeah .cause that's what I said isn't it. support Putin because of the nazis. reading your posts you seem confused a lot of time I think you might be confusing yourself myself there. Clearly the Russians can do what they like with regard to Ukraine and Ukraine can do phuck all about it - like annexing part of their country - which they did. doesn't make it right but they can. but Ukraine is an independent country and isn't at the whim of the great powers. do you people honestly believe that. that's why the Russians annexed part of their country without firing a shot and all Ukraine could do was go running to the US and EU trying to get them to fight their battle. yep not at the whim of the great powers alright. that doesn't make what the Russians did ok or right and I'm not saying it is. but the situation is what it is. I've no time for those planks in Kiev and a similar amount of time for the Russians. is that ok with you? or does that concept sort of confuse you too .what I do have time for is not wanting to see a big war kick off involving the west on behalf of Ukraine. because Ukraine is a free and independent country and isn't at the whim of the great powers and Russian interests can be steamrolled , threatened and ignored. because western freedom or whatever. It might not be right it's just how it is.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

but Ukraine is an independent country and isn't at the whim of the great powers. do you people honestly believe that. that's why the Russians annexed part of their country without firing a shot and all Ukraine could do was go running to the US and EU trying to get them to fight their battle. yep not at the whim of the great powers alright. that doesn't make what the Russians did ok or right and I'm not saying it is.

Nobodies saying the ukrainians arent suffering under the whims of putin. We're saying its not the way a modern Europe should be carrying on.

But you seem to be saying its fine for a large country to take over a smaller neighbour because thats just the way it is.

I dont get that at all.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Nobodies saying the ukrainians arent suffering under the whims of putin. We're saying its not the way a modern Europe should be carrying on.

But you seem to be saying its fine for a large country to take over a smaller neighbour because thats just the way it is.

I dont get that at all.

In fairness trees you don't get much do you if a lot of your posts are something to go by, no offence intended I genuinely mean that. I actually agree with you. are you surprised? you're right you can't be annexing and taking your neighbours land it's not on. but that is what has happened for a number of reasons and the only way I can see Crimea returning to Ukrainian control which the Ukrainians have stated is what they intend to do - is by physically taking it back from the Russians. who do you think is going to do that? those pussy nazis in Kiev?hardly. they stood around pissing themselves whilst the Russians annexed part of their country. and now they have let their nazi hoards loose upon the Russian people in the east. bull and red flag right there. I know who Ukraine would like to fight the Russians. and it isn't them. I don't agree with what Putin did which I've stated right from the start. can remember getting stick off some of the pro-Ukrainian crowd funny enough on another thread for stating at the very start that those dudes who took that first airport were not militia but Russian spetznaz. clearly those dudes were Russian spec ops though I was told I was off the wall something along those lines because Ukraine said they controlled the airport when they didn't really that was bullsh1t care of the ministry of truth. I don't agree with what Putin did but I also don't agree with a potential war with Russia on behalf of Ukraine for any reason whatsoever. not one.

comongethappy

C'mon Vladi!

There are journalists with the aid convoy.

Don't make your other extra curricular activities too obvious!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border

Those wicked Guardian propagandists wrote:

The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk – about 200km away from Donetsk, Ukraine.

After pausing by the side of the road until nightfall, the convoy crossed into Ukrainian territory, using a rough dirt track and clearly crossing through a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border. Armed men were visible in the gloom by the border fence as the column moved into Ukraine. Kiev has lost control of its side of the border in this area.

The trucks are unlikely to represent a full-scale official Russian invasion, and it was unclear how far they planned to travel inside Ukrainian territory and how long they would stay. But it was incontrovertible evidence of what Ukraine has long claimed – that Russian troops are active inside its borders.

WakeUp

comongethappy wrote: »

C'mon Vladi!

There are journalists with the aid convoy.

Don't make your other extra curricular activities too obvious!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border

I think the other convoy the one with all the white trucks is probably a decoy - everyone watch this. I would likely believe the guardian report only thing I would question is why no one took a photo. even on a phone. but it's more than likely true though still needs to be confirmed.

Meanwhile...

Ukraine Passes Russian Sanctions Law: Gas Transit Halt Seems Imminent:

The Ukrainian parliament approved a law on Thursday to impose sanctions on Russian companies and individuals "for financing terrorism." As Reuters reports, Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk told parliament that "by approving the law on sanctions, we showed that the country is able to protect itself."

The government has already prepared a list of 172 citizens of Russia and other countries, and of 65 Russian companies, including gas export giant Gazprom, on whom they could impose sanctions "for financing terrorism".

The first 'threat' though - that European energy companies would have to agree major contract revisions when purchasing Russian natural gas, potentially disrupting supplies in the coming winter months - seems suicidal... and EU leaders are not happy.

Slovak Premier Robert Fico asked rhetorically, "Isn't it strange that a country, which has signed an association agreement, a country, which we are all trying to help, is taking steps that jeopardize the interests of individual EU members?"

“We don’t want to be held hostage by the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, we can’t sacrifice our interests in the name of some duel”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-14/ukraine-passes-russian-sanctions-law-gas-transit-halt-seems-imminent

Finally someone talking some sense. these Kiev phuckwits , that's what they are ,know exactly what they are doing know full well if it happens EU countries and Europe will take the hit. the trade war isn't going so well for European countries either. possible trade deficits and job losses on the way. are these dirty nazis really worth it or is it just keep doing what the Americans are pushing for what they want. cut them loose and be done with them before it's too late.

K-9

Another Russian Ukranian gas crisis then. The EU will suffer but seeing as it's the biggest trading bloc in the world, will be ok.

WakeUp

Suffer is a bit of an understatement really. this could potentially destroy the entire EU economy and nations with it. they have lost the plot in Kiev this is insane it isn't rational. but that wouldn't be hard they haven't a god damn brain cell between them nazis don't have brains. Ukraine is now in a position to hold Europe to ransom throw their toys out of the pram and demand who knows what , or shut down up to 3/4s of Europe gas supply..coming into Winter..and Europe might suffer. sure you can say that again. if it happens where do you think the gas is going to come from there isn't an alternative .after all the EU has done , wrongly in my opinion very wrongly ,for these fascist baffoons to turn around and put the wheels in motion for something like this . wow.

these filthy Kiev nazis are now defacto holding Europe and European countries to ransom. astonishing.

AbusesToilets

I'd say the reason the Ukraine didn't put up much of a fight in the Crimea was because they weren't looking to start a war with Russia. Their mistake was in thinking that the Russians would behave in manner similar to other developed nations who respect national borders and don't openly incite insurrection to subvert government control.

The difference between the Crimea and the current situation is that Russia's intentions are now known; they are engaged in open hostilities in an effort to seize Ukrainian territory and must be militarily dealt with.

AbusesToilets

If I was the US, I would be doing everything in my power to fill the void left for supplying Europe with gas. Seeing as the Russian economy is majorly dependent on gas sales, it's something of a double edged sword for them to cut off supply. It would be ironic if doing so allowed some other country to seize it's gas market share and sink Russia's economy.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If I was the US, I would be doing everything in my power to fill the void left for supplying Europe with gas. Seeing as the Russian economy is majorly dependent on gas sales, it's something of a double edged sword for them to cut off supply. It would be ironic if doing so allowed some other country to seize it's gas market share and sink Russia's economy.

US gas exports just aren't possible not anytime soon they don't even have the infrastructure in place. If it's ever feasible it will take years.

It's Ukraine not Russia now threatening to halt supply of gas to Europe. you might need to re read that last sentence again as it isn't a typo .they've lost the plot. Ukraine acts as the transit for Russian energy supply to Europe. now that they passed this law yesterday they can do it. they are threatening a complete or partial ban on all resources across their territory. and that includes Russian energy to Europe.

comongethappy

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If I was the US, I would be doing everything in my power to fill the void left for supplying Europe with gas. Seeing as the Russian economy is majorly dependent on gas sales, it's something of a double edged sword for them to cut off supply. It would be ironic if doing so allowed some other country to seize it's gas market share and sink Russia's economy.

Pricey though to transport..... Though wholesale gas prices have been going down.

May be necessary though as over the last 6 months the EU has banded together, burnt the midnight oil and done..... absolutely nothing to diversify its energy mix.

Preferring instead to languish in economic torpor instead of using new a new energy strategy to kick-start economic growth.

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

US gas exports just aren't possible not anytime soon they don't even have the infrastructure in place. If it's ever feasible it will take years.

It's Ukraine not Russia now threatening to halt supply of gas to Europe. you might need to re read that last sentence again as it isn't a typo .they've lost the plot. Ukraine acts as the transit for Russian energy supply to Europe. now that they passed this law yesterday they can do it. they are threatening a complete or partial ban on all resources across their territory. and that includes Russian energy to Europe.

not any more, this is from RT which I know most of you dismiss as propaganda but the Nord and South Streams are a fact.

Together with Western investors Ukraine is planning to create a new company that will control the country’s gas transit system. However, it could be hard to find investors willing to participate in the project, some analysts believe, as Russia is currently developing a transit system bypassing Ukraine’s territory, which has proved unreliable as a transit partner.

Russia is building two pipelines that do not run through Ukraine to deliver natural gas to Europe. The Nord Stream is already complete, and once the South Stream is complete, Ukraine’s gas transportation system may lose more than 50 percent of its value.

Though wholesale gas prices have been going down.

Yes true, but hasn't that something to do with last winter being unusually mild throughout Europe which of course led to low demand and a surplus.
What if the opposite happens and Europe gets a winter of historical severity?
All ifs and buts of course.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

US gas exports just aren't possible not anytime soon they don't even have the infrastructure in place. If it's ever feasible it will take years.

It's Ukraine not Russia now threatening to halt supply of gas to Europe. you might need to re read that last sentence again as it isn't a typo .they've lost the plot. Ukraine acts as the transit for Russian energy supply to Europe. now that they passed this law yesterday they can do it. they are threatening a complete or partial ban on all resources across their territory. and that includes Russian energy to Europe.

I'm not knowledgeable on the US export infrastructure for gas, but the given the huge boom in production there, to the point of surplus and market over saturation, there is massive incentive to push for an increase in foreign exports. What a perfect situation to promote that; where economic and diplomatic interests would dovetail markedly, I would be shocked if the various US gas companies weren't looking to try and exploit this situation to their advantage.

Elmer Blooker

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I would be shocked if the various US gas companies weren't looking to try and exploit this situation to their advantage.

No offence but I really laughed at this bit!
The US created the unrest in Ukraine and are now trying to exploit the situation, that's what they do. It's called US foreign policy $$$$$$$$.

Morpheus

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No offence but I really laughed at this bit!
The US created the unrest in Ukraine and are now trying to exploit the situation, that's what they do. It's called US foreign policy $$$$$$$$.

REALLY? So it wasnt the Russians invading and annexing the legitimate ukrainian territory of Crimea? I call bullsh!t. The US gets blamed for everything, they arent the only country in NATO you know? the russians wanted Crimea all along. And now they want east ukraine too. They should f**k off back across their own border.

Theres a few trees in this forest of misinformation that require hugging.

comongethappy

Morpheus wrote: »

REALLY? So it wasnt the Russians invading and annexing the legitimate ukrainian territory of Crimea? I call bullsh!t. The US gets blamed for everything, they arent the only country in NATO you know? the russians wanted Crimea all along. And now they want east ukraine too. They should f**k off back across their own border.

Theres a few trees in this forest of misinformation that require hugging.

Elmer is on another planet methinks.... A different reality altogether.

Territory annexed,
Rebellion fermented and controlled,
troops & weapons brought into Ukraine.....
And a column of Russian armour crossing to Ukraine last night.

But as always..... with everything, its Americas fault.

Its getting tragic.

stevedublin

Reports coming in that part of the Russian convoy has been destroyed by the Ukraine army!

comongethappy

stevedublin wrote: »

Reports coming in that part of the Russian convoy has been destroyed by the Ukraine army!

Yeah, military sources are saying they identified & destroyed part of the convoy of APCs that crossed the border last night.

I'd be surprised if that's true though?

I don't know where the front line is relative to the border crossing, an artillery barrage would be unlikely, perhaps an air strike?

aloyisious

I don't know about the above but reddit has up to date postings of what are described as Russian Military vehicles (BMP-type) with Russian flags on aerials, plus Tanks and other vehicles (some reportedly with Peacekeeper markings) approaching the border from Russian side.

EDIT: Reddit mentions claim by a Ukrainian officer that one BMP in that cross-border convoy was destroyed by his army.

Edit..... RTE's Drive-time reported it was Ukrainian artillery that attacked the Russian BMP convoy on Ukrainian soil and destroyed part of it. It didn't have detail if it was wheeled, mobile or rocket artillery the Ukrainians used.

comongethappy

aloyisious wrote: »

EDIT: Reddit mentions claim by a Ukrainian officer that one BMP in that cross-border convoy was destroyed by his army.

Aah.... I thought it was more than that.

But I suppose they probably dispersed when they crossed over.

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Elmer is on another planet methinks.... A different reality altogether.

Territory annexed,
Rebellion fermented and controlled,
troops & weapons brought into Ukraine.....
And a column of Russian armour crossing to Ukraine last night.

But as always..... with everything, its Americas fault.

Its getting tragic.

You are obviously suffering from amnesia!
The reunification of Crimea with Russia and the resistance against Kiev's neo nazi mercenaries came AFTER the US orchestrated coup.
"rebellion fermented" I agree with you for once - except its by the CIA.
edit: nothing, absolutely nothing about this "Russian convoy" on BBC NEWS 24 which I'm watching now?

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The reunification of Crimea with Russia and the resistance against Kiev's neo nazi mercenaries came AFTER the US orchestrated coup.
"rebellion fermented" I agree with you for once - except its by the CIA.

See what I mean!

Morpheus

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You are obviously suffering from amnesia!
The reunification of Crimea

you make me laugh.

Russia blatantly took the sovereign territory of another nation. That F*cking Criminal in my book. They had no right, ab-f*cking-lutely none. regardless of the population demographics.

Ukraine people rose up, not f*ucking Neo Nazis, the people that live there were sick to death of the government. you have a population, the majority of which is west leaning but a sizeable minority of which is east leaning. you then hold a UN monitored NATIONAL referendum and everybody lives with the consequences, you do not, on the other hand steal part of their country and military infrastructure and then ferment and facilitate a civil war which is really a proxy war between europe and russia.

Its downright disgraceful and Putin should be hung drawn and quartered over it. he is a f*cking dinosaur.

Elmer Blooker

Morpheus, I am certainly not going to pay any attention to your rant. I see you're interested in military affairs, perhaps you can start a WW3 forum on boards.ie as its coming soon - the blind lead the blind!
I eagerly await photographic evidence of Russian armour (destroyed or otherwise) on Ukrainian soil.... and I don't mean Twitter or YouTube "evidence" like MH17.

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Morpheus, I am certainly not going to pay any attention to your rant. I see you're interested in military affairs, perhaps you can start a WW3 forum on boards.ie as its coming soon - the blind lead the blind!
I eagerly await photographic evidence of Russian armour (destroyed or otherwise) on Ukrainian soil.... and I don't mean Twitter or YouTube "evidence" like MH17.

The only people who have been bleating on about WW3 - and rather gleefully I should point out - have been Putinistas, cheer-leading Moscow with blind fervor. Do you really want a war to kick off between nations armed with nukes? Do you have any f*cking idea of the consequences if that particular balloon goes up? Of course you don't. West Cork or Donegal wouldn't be spared either I should point out ...

Red Nissan

Lemming wrote: »

West Cork or Donegal wouldn't be spared either I should point out ...

That was in the old days, both Russia and the USA have said they do not have our cities actively targetted anymore.