Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

InTheTrees

Red Nissan wrote: »

That was in the old days, both Russia and the USA have said they do not have our cities actively targetted anymore.

It would come down to which way the wind would blow.

Hopefully the gulf stream would keep the toxicity from blowing over europe.

Although come to think of it... there's US bases in the UK that they'd hit so the fallout would certainly spread over ireland.

comongethappy

Red Nissan wrote: »

That was in the old days, both Russia and the USA have said they do not have our cities actively targetted anymore.

Why would they ever have been?

Elmer Blooker

First post in three and a half hours! I thought this thread would have been much busier considering Russia invaded Ukraine today!
NATO boss Anders Fogh Rasmussen said they invaded so it has to be true!
I presume all the "evidence" is on Twitter and YouTube.

aloyisious

comongethappy wrote: »

Why would they ever have been?

Shannon and the Atlantic seaports were seen as strategic locations for airlifts and Naval bases. The bigger picture planners also eyed Dublin because it was a seat of government, even if it was "neutral" better to blow it out of existence than leave a centre of resistance intact.

Edit. Having seen Lemimg's post below, I better make clear I meant the above location would either be taken for use as forward bases or made unusable to the enemy, and probably so by both sides by their "Wargames" Ops Planners on a "what if" basis as that's what they do within the military structure.

Elmer Blooker

Breaking news: shocking, damning overwhelming and conclusive evidence that a Russian invasion of Ukraine is underway!
from BBC news, what more evidence is needed?

The alleged incursion was witnessed by two UK newspaper reporters.

.........I'm on another planet?

And a column of Russian armour crossing to Ukraine last night.

Lemming

Red Nissan wrote: »

That was in the old days, both Russia and the USA have said they do not have our cities actively targetted anymore.

InTheTrees wrote: »

It would come down to which way the wind would blow.

Hopefully the gulf stream would keep the toxicity from blowing over europe.

Although come to think of it... there's US bases in the UK that they'd hit so the fallout would certainly spread over ireland.

comongethappy wrote: »

Why would they ever have been?

aloyisious wrote: »

Shannon and the Atlantic seaports were seen as strategic locations for airlifts and Naval bases. The bigger picture planners also eyed Dublin because it was a seat of government, even if it was "neutral" better to blow it out of existence than leave a centre of resistance intact.

To answer all of the above; "to deny the enemy aid & comfort". Dublin, Baldonnell, Cork, (twice; City + oil storage facility on south-west coast), Shannon, Galway bay area, & possibly Buncrana in Donegal, and Belfast would all get hit to deny "friendly" countries use of any facilities.

It's part of the doctrine of MAD. Flatten the enemy and leave nothing standing that could be used to aid them to dissuade them from contemplating a strike on "us". The prevailing winds wouldn't amount to much to stop fallout from Belfast, and I wouldn't want to be hoping for the prevailing winds to be prevailing consistently on the day, weeks, and months afterwards without any change.

Also, this whole "actively targetting/not targetting" thing is mush; it takes the time to punch in co-ordinates to actively target a location. So such statements are empty & meaningless.

aloyisious

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Breaking news: shocking, damning overwhelming and conclusive evidence that a Russian invasion of Ukraine is underway!
from BBC news, what more evidence is needed?


.........I'm on another planet?

Ah come on Elmer, you've got to have trust in some-one, don't you? Oh God....

Red Nissan

Lemming wrote: »

Also, this whole "actively targetting/not targetting" thing is mush; it takes the time to punch in co-ordinates to actively target a location. So such statements are empty & meaningless.

I am talking about ICBM missile silos that were manned 24/7 with who would respond with predesignated targets. Ireland was in a first strike from botht he USA and the USSR.

We are not now, targeting from mobile platforms is a different thing and is the whole point of nuclear attack deterrent, that it can strike anywhere.

But the point and facts is Ireland does not have any missile pointed at it ready to fire.

WakeUp

Ukraine foreign minister Pavlo Klimkin calls on NATO, EU to give military support:

BERLIN: Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin called on NATO and the European Union to provide military support for Ukrainian troops fighting pro-Russian separatists and said the Western military alliance needed to come up with a new strategy towards Kiev.

The four-month conflict in eastern Ukraine has reached a critical phase and a separatist leader said on Saturday that Ukrainian rebels were receiving new military equipment and troops trained in Russia, and would launch a major counter-offensive against government forces.
http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/ukraine-foreign-minister-pavlo-klimkin-calls-on-nato-eu-to-give-military-support/articleshow/40320808.cms

Actually no Pavlo the western military alliance doesn't need to come up with a new strategy for Kiev. you aren't in Nato or the EU . you dirty fascist. The EU and Nato won't be fighting your battle for you and won't be going to war with Russia. they threaten to cut off energy supply to Europe yet now they want military assistance from Europe. zero hour is on the way. cut them loose before it's too late.

cerastes

aloyisious wrote: »

Shannon and the Atlantic seaports were seen as strategic locations for airlifts and Naval bases. The bigger picture planners also eyed Dublin because it was a seat of government, even if it was "neutral" better to blow it out of existence than leave a centre of resistance intact.

Edit. Having seen Lemimg's post below, I better make clear I meant the above location would either be taken for use as forward bases or made unusable to the enemy, and probably so by both sides by their "Wargames" Ops Planners on a "what if" basis as that's what they do within the military structure.

So a small nuclear device would sort that out, I wonder what we were targetted with? a few kilotons? they probably had a few kilotons to spare, Id have thought leaving the seat of govt in place would have been better as it can be reused if taken over and its usually better to keep an existing govt infrastructure in place to keep order, if you dont then it creates a situation you are assured of having some resistance from someone with no one to deal with it, unless the intent is to sow disorder. Better to take out airfields and ports unless you think you might need them yourself later on, rather than pointlessly bombing cities (blitz?), although most major cities on a coast have a nearby port, it would be easier and quicker for an undamaged airfield to be used in retaliation.

Cant see why infrastructure would be targeted (hit) unless it looked like an enemy would take it soon, as ICBMs could be used to lay in wait until such an enemy was already there, be there in what? few hours? plus destroy their forces and higher grounds for usage and still keep the option of using the airfields/ports yourself later, unless your launch facilities might be targetted and you'd have no ability to strike later.

With the prevailing wind directions, Id be more concerned about the direct affects of nuclear strike on Belfast than the fallout, then again if such a thing happened, the entire infrastructure would fail

Last I heard the Ukrainians agreed to a convoy crossing the border with humanitarian aid and a new seperatist leader stating arms and heavy equipment arrived from Russia (bluff?). Not sure why the Ukrainians agreed to such a convoy unless they can check it for weapons? maybe an independant organisation can?

comongethappy

cerastes wrote: »

Last I heard the Ukrainians agreed to a convoy crossing the border with humanitarian aid and a new seperatist leader stating arms and heavy equipment arrived from Russia (bluff?). Not sure why the Ukrainians agreed to such a convoy unless they can check it for weapons? maybe an independant organisation can?

56 Ukrainian border & customs staff have been combing through the trucks with Red Cross staff for a couple of days now.

Arms/troops have been arriving separately & not quite as obviously.

aloyisious

Now if one was a conspiracy-fanatic, one might suppose that the aid convoy was a distraction-ploy, so's the media etc attention would be drawn away from the rest of the border. Just saying is all; :-,)

WakeUp

Alleged war crime: White Phosphorus used in residential areas in Donetsk?:

Latest reports from Kiev indicate a possible victory for Ukrainian forces in taking back rebel held regions in Donetsk and Luhansk. According to reports Rebel leaders are fleeing. This is disputed by the other side.

Highly disturbing news emerge by eTN sources and eyewitness reports from Donetsk yesterday alleging the use of White Phosphorus bombs in civilian areas in Donetsk by the Ukrainian army.

According to eTN sources in Donetsk WP bombs landed in residential areas in Donetsk at the Lenin district of Donetsk city, Petrovski district of Donetsk city and near railway station Mandrykino.

Using lethal white phosphorus bombs in civilian areas violate most international treaties and could be considered war crimes.

The question remains how the United States of America and the European Union can give blind and unconditional support to the nationalist Kiev government of Ukraine? The question remains why children, disabled civilians, mostly regular citizens had to die every minute under bombs thrown at them by their own government?
http://mobile.dudamobile.com/site/eturbonews1?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eturbonews.com%2F49170%2Falleged-war-crime-white-phosphorus-used-residential-areas-donets%3Futm_source%3Dfeedburner%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3DFeed%253A%2BEturbonews-TravelAndTourismIndustryNews%2B%2528eTurboNews%2B-%2Bfor%2Bthe%2Bglobal%2Btravel%2Bprofessional%2529#2904

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CrEZKe1x_k

comongethappy

The Kremlin has been accusing Kiev of using WP for a few months now.

Remarkable article though.
No author.
hysterical editorialising based on an allegation.
And the "Global Travel Industry News" sure have gotten political!

Human rights watch have some articles on it too from June/July......
Remains to be seen if its proven WP has been used.... I wouldn't put it past them.

WakeUp

the allegation of wp being used is strangely conspicuous from most western media outlets, unless Ive missed something. if that video is from the Donetsk its quite obvious they are dropping wp on civilians. though maybe its best to just put that to one side for the time being let the people burn, along with the rampaging Kiev Wolfsangel brigades and their threats to turn off Russian energy to Europe. sure its all good isnt it. nothing to see here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5D3GMhgzvQ

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

the allegation of wp being used is strangely conspicuous from most western media outlets, unless Ive missed something.

Uh huh. "Strangely conspicous"?

Maybe if there any actual evidence of it being used.

They need to provide incontrovertible irrefutable third party verified evidence of it being used.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

the allegation of wp being used is strangely conspicuous from most western media outlets.

More than likely the terrorists used it themselves.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Uh huh. "Strangely conspicous"?

Maybe if there any actual evidence of it being used.

They need to provide incontrovertible irrefutable third party verified evidence of it being used.

do you have eyes? do they work?..if those videos are from Donetsk what would you call them?...

akaMrSmith

Could this be the beginning of WW3?

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

More than likely the terrorists used it themselves.

so the terrorists shelled their own positions and people with wp? I read some seriously stupid things in my life and thats right up their with all of them. wow.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

do you have eyes? do they work?..if those videos are from Donetsk what would you call them?...

Funny guy.

Thats not evidence. Its a grainy youtube video of fireworks.

Sure.

Try finding some real evidence to post.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

so the terrorists shelled their own positions and people with wp? I read some seriously stupid things in my life and thats right up their with all of them. wow.

Excuse me?

Stupid would be assuming we'd buy the russian propaganda without questioning it.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Funny guy.

Thats not evidence. Its a grainy youtube video of fireworks.

Sure.

Try finding some real evidence to post.

the cognitive dissonance on display from some of the pro-facist side is astounding. ignore and ridicule the possibility of wp being dropped on civillians, ignore the rampaging Wolfsangel brigades, ignore Kievs threats to turn off the gas too Europe . lets have war with Russia . whooya .so about the "terrorists" shelling their own positions and people with white phosphorus? thats about one of the silliest things Ive ever heard in my life. so tell then why would they do something like that?..

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

if those videos are from Donetsk what would you call them?...

Exactly "If those videso are from donetsk" and we dont know that they are, they still dont constitute evidence.

You're making a lot of assumptions.

You need to provide real evidence. The russians have been lying about almost every aspect of this conflict so far.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly "If those videso are from donetsk" and we dont know that they are, they still dont constitute evidence.

You're making a lot of assumptions.

You need to provide real evidence. The russians have been lying about almost every aspect of this conflict so far.

thats nice. so about your comment thats its the "terrorists" shelling their own positions and people with wp? why would they do that?..did you engage your brain before tying that? can you offer sort of an explanation as to why they would do something like that..anything?...

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

thats about one of the silliest things Ive ever heard in my life. so tell then why would they do something like that?..

A video of some random explosions in the far distance and you're telling us its "white phospherous"?

Why do you think we'd believe that?

The amount of lies you pro-russians have been putting out is wearying and yet now suddenly we have to believe you? On the strength of a grainy unattributed youtube video?

Have you heard the expression "crying wolf"?

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

A video of some random explosions in the far distance and you're telling us its "white phospherous"?

Why do you think we'd believe that?

The amount of lies you pro-russians have been putting out is wearying and yet now suddenly we have to believe you? On the strength of a grainy unattributed youtube video?

Have you heard the expression "crying wolf"?

Im not pro-Russian go away out of that will you. just because I disagree with what youre saying , because its nonsense, does not make me pro-Russian. so about the terrorists shelling their own position and people with wp?..why would they do something like that?..

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

thats nice. so about your comment thats its the "terrorists" shelling their own positions and people with wp? why would they do that?..did you engage your brain before tying that? can you offer sort of an explanation as to why they would do something like that..anything?...

Its a grainy video of some explosions in the distance.

Its only you that seems to think its white phosphorous. Or who the hell is shelling who.

So you're getting a little ahead of yourself demanding explanations.

You need to produce actual Evidence.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

so about the terrorists shelling their own position and people with wp?..why would they do something like that?..

We only have your word for any of this and you've already proved yourself pretty loose with the Truth.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its a rainy video of some explosions in the distance.

Its only you that seems to think its white phosphorous. Or who the hell is shelling who.

So you're getting a little ahead of yourself demanding explanations.

You need to produce actual Evidence.

so you dont think thats wp in the video?? what do you think it is then fireworks or something?? so about those terrorists shelling their own positions and people with wp?? why would they do that....why? do you know how ridiculous a notion that is. unless you can tell me why? in your mind you figured that? I dont think you engaged your brain before you typed that but im open to being proven wrong....