Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

so you dont think thats wp in the video??

No.

I dont even think thats Ukraine. It could be anywhere.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

No.

I dont even think thats Ukraine. It could be anywhere.

if it isnt wp what is it then? and about those terroists shelling their own positions and people with wp..why would they do that?...why...

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

if it isnt wp what is it then? and about those terroists shelling their own positions and people with wp..why would they do that?...why...

YOu keep making blind assertions and demanding explanations.

A youtube video proves absolutely categorically nothing. DO you undertsand that?

You can get all excitied and frothy about why why why would the terrorists shell their own people but we only have your word for that.

And personally after all these threads spread out over weeks and your constant barrage of rehashed russian propaganda, I really dont believe anything you post..

So you need to post some actual proof.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

YOu keep making blind assertions and demanding explanations.

A youtube video proves absolutely categorically nothing. DO you undertsand that?

You can get all excitied and frothy about why why why would the terrorists shell their own people but we only have your word for that.

And personally after all these threads spread out over weeks and your constant barrage of rehashed russian propaganda, I really dont believe anything you post..

So you need to post some actual proof.

I dont give a boll0x what you believe thats up to you. but what are you talking about, I havent made any blind assertions. on the other hand youve just dismissed the possibility of wp being dropped on civilians. cause terrorists or something. but you cant explain why. and what do you mean you only have my word as to why the terroists would shell their own people. what in gods name are you talking about. you said that? so about that...why in your opnion, as you stated, would terrorists shell their own positions and people with wp?..why?...

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

but what are you talking about, I havent made any blind assertions.

Really? On the strength of an unverifed 1 minute youtube video you're claiming Kiev is shelling the terrorists with white phospherous.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

I dont give a boll0x what you believe thats up to you. but what are you talking about, I havent made any blind assertions.

Ummm.

You're a regular putin parrot with the blind assertions. They're unrelenting.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Really? On the strength of an unverifed 1 minute youtube video you're claiming Kiev is shelling the terrorists with white phospherous.

try and keep up. if you read back I said the possibility/allegation of Kiev using wp on civillians I didnt assert anything. you on the other hand dismissed and ridiculed that possibility. and the stated it was the terrorists responsible. so why would the terrorists shell their own positions and people with wp? why?...you didnt think much before you posted that did you.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ummm.

You're a regular putin parrot with the blind assertions. They're unrelenting.

ah so now the name calling. right so. you havent a god damn clue do you, what youre talking about, so resort to the above. pathetic. farewell for now.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

so why would the terrorists shell their own positions

Its probably footage from iraq or syria or gaza with russian voices dubbed over it.

Thats all. Easy to do.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

on the other hand you've just dismissed the possibility of wp being dropped on civilians.

I'm just asking you for some real evidence, but you seem extremely reluctant to provide any.

And you're getting more and more over-excited the more I ask for it.

pablomakaveli

Lets use a comparable example.

This video of Gaza being hit by white phosphorus at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfcHVBIyJyA

It's a lot brighter and only white. No sign of blue or pink and lots of smoke as well.

This alleged evidence from Donetsk looks like fireworks and does not even remotely like WP.

AbusesToilets

There was a piece here referencing claims about Ukrainian use of white phosphorus

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/20/dispatches-white-phosphorus-white-lies-or-what

If either side is deliberately targeting civilians with WP, then that is a serious issue and worthy of condemnation. Proof is required, that goes beyond unattributable youtube videos.

WakeUp

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Lets use a comparable example.

This video of Gaza being hit by white phosphorus at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfcHVBIyJyA

It's a lot brighter and only white. No sign of blue or pink and lots of smoke as well.

This alleged evidence from Donetsk looks like fireworks and does not even remotely like WP.

maybe you know more about munitions than me but to me it looks like those bombs in that Gaza video are fused to go off pretty much just before impact..is it possible to do the opposite..detonate at a higher altitude and disperse them? im not sure if it can truth be told I dont know.

in this video that looks like a reddish/pink and white to me and I dont see any blue. both white and red phosphorus have military purposes. on page 19 of this military report under characteristics of red phosphorus - appearance - its noted as "reddish brown"..
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a135910.pdf

chemical, health and environmental effects of phosphorus. Im trying to find out more about the chemistry of it in military applications.
http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/p.htm#Properties

to me the Donetsk video does not look like fireworks though im not sure what it is. I agree a youtube video on its own proves nothing but if the civilians of that area are claiming it has been used against them, it needs to be investigated and either proven/shown to be false.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

I'm just asking you for some real evidence, but you seem extremely reluctant to provide any.

And you're getting more and more over-excited the more I ask for it.

so you going to explain the reason why you think terrorists would shell their own positions and people with wp?....

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

so you going to explain the reason why you think terrorists would shell their own positions and people with wp?....

Nice try bub.

I've said repeatedly that its russian propaganda until you can provide evidence.

Demanding I justify the motivations of the participants in your fabricated story is pretty meaningless isnt it?

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Nice try bub.

I've said repeatedly that its russian propaganda until you can provide evidence.

Demanding I justify the motivations of the participants in your fabricated story is pretty meaningless isnt it?

yeah but you also said it was probably the terrorists that shelled themselves and their people with wp. Im asking you to explain your comment. but clearly you cant as you typed without thinking , dont have an answer, and you were talking sh1te.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

yeah but you also said it was probably the terrorists that shelled themselves and their people with wp.

I never said they shelled themselves.

I think if it was used it was probably the terrorists firing a shell into the air and making a youtube video of it to use as propaganda.

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

but clearly you cant as you typed without thinking , dont have an answer, and you were talking sh1te.

Except I didnt write what you claim I wrote...

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

I never said they shelled themselves.

I think if it was used it was probably the terrorists firing a shell into the air and making a youtube video of it to use as propaganda.

well thats fair enough isnt it that wasnt so hard was it. even If I think the idea of them doing that is ridiculous. but thanks for finally getting back to me about it.

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

maybe you know more about munitions than me but to me it looks like those bombs in that Gaza video are fused to go off pretty much just before impact..is it possible to do the opposite..detonate at a higher altitude and disperse them? im not sure if it can truth be told I dont know.

in this video that looks like a reddish/pink and white to me and I dont see any blue. both white and red phosphorus have military purposes. on page 19 of this military report under characteristics of red phosphorus - appearance - its noted as "reddish brown"..
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a135910.pdf

chemical, health and environmental effects of phosphorus. Im trying to find out more about the chemistry of it in military applications.
http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/p.htm#Properties

to me the Donetsk video does not look like fireworks though im not sure what it is. I agree a youtube video on its own proves nothing but if the civilians of that area are claiming it has been used against them, it needs to be investigated and either proven/shown to be false.

This article may be of interest to you. From Human Rights Watch.There conclusion was the same as mine. Pyrotechnics (probably fireworks) of some kind.

WakeUp

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This article may be of interest to you. From Human Rights Watch.There conclusion was the same as mine. Pyrotechnics (probably fireworks) of some kind.

Ok so lets say this is true that means that this is the rebels doing this then? I count 4 explosions at the bottom of the screen from 3-9 secs in what do you think they are?....

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

Ok so lets say this is true that means that this is the rebels doing this then? I count 4 explosions at the bottom of the screen from 3-9 secs in what do you think they are?....

I dont know but it's not white phosphorus.

WakeUp

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I dont know but it's not white phosphorus.

Ok so this is from rt today ive just come across it maybe ten mins ago. if possible put that to one side Im interested in the chaps comments that she is interviewing specifically what he is saying. hes an ex UK army officer and has investigated Israeli use of wp in Gaza. what do you make of what he is saying? fair points or not? is he talking sense or what do you make of him.. also some of the pictures, of houses and such burning , from the alleged white phosphorus attack on Slaviansk, how would you explain in some cases houses with just their roofs on fire? or parts of the roof.. how would you explain some of these pictures..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLhzk48AC38

AbusesToilets

That video does not look as though it is WP to me. WP has a fairly specific dispersal pattern, it doesn't sparkle and shimmer in the fashion that occurs in the video. You can look up videos of confirmed WP usage at night, it's quite different,

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

Ok so this is from rt today ive just come across it maybe ten mins ago. if possible put that to one side Im interested in the chaps comments that she is interviewing specifically what he is saying. hes an ex UK army officer and has investigated Israeli use of wp in Gaza. what do you make of what he is saying? fair points or not? is he talking sense or what do you make of him.. also some of the pictures, of houses and such burning , from the alleged white phosphorus attack on Slaviansk, how would you explain in some cases houses with just their roofs on fire? or parts of the roof.. how would you explain some of these pictures..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLhzk48AC38

Sorry but it's from RT which i just can't take seriously as a source. Given it's mainly Russian media pushing this WP stuff they just aren't a reliable source.

Morpheus

WakeUp wrote: »

thats nice. so about your comment thats its the "terrorists" shelling their own positions and people with wp? why would they do that?..did you engage your brain before tying that? can you offer sort of an explanation as to why they would do something like that..anything?...

Thats not white phosphorous shells by the way... it looks nothing remotely like it.

This is a WP shelling

Secondly, I put nothing past the Rebels, including shelling their own people in order to turn international support their way, the only solution is the democratic one. Russia should, as ive said before, f**k off back across their own border and mind their own business. Leave this to the people in the Ukraine themselves.

That RT "report" looks like its been stitched together from a number of other reports and videos of other conflicts, some of the "flares" may be from low flying attack aircraft or even para lumes.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That video does not look as though it is WP to me. WP has a fairly specific dispersal pattern, it doesn't sparkle and shimmer in the fashion that occurs in the video. You can look up videos of confirmed WP usage at night, it's quite different,

If you look at the Donetsk video and compare them to other videos of wp being used mainly by the Israelis then no it doesnt look similar to wp to say otherwise wouldnt be accurate though could it be something else. which brings me on to pablo and morpeus.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Sorry but it's from RT which i just can't take seriously as a source. Given it's mainly Russian media pushing this WP stuff they just aren't a reliable source.

I understand peoples hesitancy to take rt seriously which is why I asked you to try and put that aside and focus on what that ex British army fella was saying. because what he said was on rt does this make his opinion null and void? or can you challenge what he said as opposed to the source. he said it could be wp or it could be something else some other type of incendiary? among other things...

Morpheus wrote: »

Thats not white phosphorous shells by the way... it looks nothing remotely like it.

This is a WP shelling

Secondly, I put nothing past the Rebels, including shelling their own people in order to turn international support their way, the only solution is the democratic one. Russia should, as ive said before, f**k off back across their own border and mind their own business. Leave this to the people in the Ukraine themselves.

That RT "report" looks like its been stitched together from a number of other reports and videos of other conflicts, some of the "flares" may be from low flying attack aircraft or even para lumes.

I actually agree the best thing the rebels could do is leave Donetsk and other places and spare the civilians you wont find me arguing against that. but if the rebels are capable of staging something false for the reason you are saying are the Ukrainian facists not capable of doing something similar for whatever reason. or is it only one side capable of such possible skullduggery? and if such a thing might be beyond Kiev, why? also if the Russians should mind their own business does that not work both ways. then surely the EU and Nato should mind their own business too. or does that only work one way too.

Like I asked pablo, that British ex army guy what he has said is this just to be disregarded because the source is rt?

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

I understand peoples hesitancy to take rt seriously which is why I asked you to try and put that aside and focus on what that ex British army fella was saying. because what he said was on rt does this make his opinion null and void? or can you challenge what he said as opposed to the source. he said it could be wp or it could be something else some other type of incendiary? among other things...

Ok i'll humour you then.

What he says still doesn't stand up. He even admits there should be more smoke but puts it down to the dark. But the videos me and Morpheus posted the smoke can clearly be seen even from a distance in the dark. A lot of what he says seems like conjecture.

But at the end of the day it's still RT and it's likely to be biased. FWIW if it was FoxNews and he was saying definitely not white phosphorus i wouldn't buy it either.

If the Human Rights Watch group i posted early looked at it and said it's not white phosphorus thats good enough for me as they'd be the first to cry fowl.

WakeUp

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ok i'll humour you then.

What he says still doesn't stand up. He even admits there should be more smoke but puts it down to the dark. But the videos me and Morpheus posted the smoke can clearly be seen even from a distance in the dark. A lot of what he says seems like conjecture.

But at the end of the day it's still RT and it's likely to be biased. FWIW if it was FoxNews and he was saying definitely not white phosphorus i wouldn't buy it either.

If the Human Rights Watch group i posted early looked at it and said it's not white phosphorus thats good enough for me as they'd be the first to cry fowl.

I didnt ask to be amused I asked for your opinion unless you find your opinion amusing that is. I asked you what did you make of him and what he said thats all .ok so not wp then and the rebels did it? this would be your prognosis of the situation in Donetsk a number of nights ago?...

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

I didnt ask to be amused I asked for your opinion unless you find your opinion amusing that is. I asked you what did you make of him and what he said thats all .ok so not wp then and the rebels did it? this would be your prognosis of the situation in Donetsk a number of nights ago?...

For all we know thatcould be a video of a fireworks display from god knows where.

I don't see why your badgering with this. What are you hoping to gain?

That video is irrelevant. It shows nothing of signifcance or substance.