Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

I actually agree the best thing the rebels could do is leave Donetsk and other places and spare the civilians you wont find me arguing against that. but if the rebels are capable of staging something false for the reason you are saying are the Ukrainian facists not capable of doing something similar for whatever reason. or is it only one side capable of such possible skullduggery? and if such a thing might be beyond Kiev, why? also if the Russians should mind their own business does that not work both ways. then surely the EU and Nato should mind their own business too. or does that only work one way too.

Like I asked pablo, that British ex army guy what he has said is this just to be disregarded because the source is rt?

Think back to how much evidence was presented by the Palestinian's when Israel shelled them with WP. If the Ukrainian Army have done so, their would be a preponderance of evidence beyond a low res youtube video from an unattributable source.

WakeUp

pablomakaveli wrote: »

For all we know thatcould be a video of a fireworks display from god knows where.

I don't see why your badgering with this. What are you hoping to gain?

That video is irrelevant. It shows nothing of signifcance or substance.

It shows nothing of significance or substance. in your opinion. which clears up nothing , no offence. you cant say that for sure. why would I want to gain something. a fireworks display from god knows who were or the rebels did it. fair enough.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Think back to how much evidence was presented by the Palestinian's when Israel shelled them with WP. If the Ukrainian Army have done so, their would be a preponderance of evidence beyond a low res youtube video from an unattributable source.

you would think there would be a preponderance of evidence to back it up but this isnt always the case. just because there isnt doesnt mean it didnt happen. Im just curious so far, we have a stitched up video, firework display and the rebels did it. is this the general consensus?..

AbusesToilets

I don't think there has been any evidence to show that WP was used, period, before you even get into attributing it's origin. There would be telltale scorch marks, shell casings, people or animals suffering burns that are readily recognizable as being the result of phosphorus. I haven't seen any of those presented and given the eagerness of both sides to score IO wins, one would expect such events to be highly publicized.

WakeUp

those are fair points. but that still doesnt explain what we are seeing in both videos if indeed they are from where they are alleged to be from. nor has anyone put forward an explanation as to why houses just had part of/all of there roof on fire. but I will attribute that to the stitched up video theory. because fireworks dont do that I dont think. then there are the fires on the ground with little evidence of an explosive impact. how does a house end up with near surgical fires in certain parts of the building specifically the roof.

AbusesToilets

I don't know but speculation is pointless. Bottom line, you have two heavily armed groups fighting in an urban environment. You are guaranteed collateral destruction and civilian deaths. Given that the Ukraine has the advantage of numbers and armament, it's almost inevitable that the separatists will look to use urban terrain to negate those advantages, which is likely to increase the levels of damage and deaths.

steveblack

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't think there has been any evidence to show that WP was used, period,

I take it you are American?
have only ever heard "period" used by Americans, would explain your perspective of the events unfolding.

InTheTrees

steveblack wrote: »

I take it you are American?
have only ever heard "period" used by Americans, would explain your perspective of the events unfolding.

So what?

??

comongethappy

steveblack wrote: »

I take it you are American?
have only ever heard "period" used by Americans, would explain your perspective of the events unfolding.

What is wrong with being an American?

Is ones nationhood a direct correlation on supporting/opposing Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

(I better not use a colloquialism a black/asian person might say....wouldn't want to fit in your little box!)

AbusesToilets

steveblack wrote: »

I take it you are American?
have only ever heard "period" used by Americans, would explain your perspective of the events unfolding.

Do you mean a perspective whereby I wait to see evidence before condemning one group or another?

Elmer Blooker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk–Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic
They say history repeats and reading this ^ you would have to agree. After the 1917 Russian Revolution the Germans occupied Ukraine and gave them independence - in other words a puppet state (sound familiar?) as they wanted Ukrainian grain to feed the starving German population, the ethnic Russians in the east set up their own Donetsk Republic (sound familiar?) in Feb 1918 which was short lived as they were no match for experienced German troops.
In 1918 Germany wanted the grain, almost a century later they want the gas.
I never did believe the western propaganda that Putin was responsible for the current situation in eastern Ukraine, I always believed it was an ethnic problem and this link proves that.

The legacy of the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic was revived again during the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine, when Donetsk separatists wanting independence from Ukraine started using the flag of the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic

realweirdo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk–Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic
They say history repeats and reading this ^ you would have to agree. After the 1917 Russian Revolution the Germans occupied Ukraine and gave them independence - in other words a puppet state (sound familiar?) as they wanted Ukrainian grain to feed the starving German population, the ethnic Russians in the east set up their own Donetsk Republic (sound familiar?) in Feb 1918 which was short lived as they were no match for experienced German troops.
In 1918 Germany wanted the grain, almost a century later they want the gas.
I never did believe the western propaganda that Putin was responsible for the current situation in eastern Ukraine, I always believed it was an ethnic problem and this link proves that.

"They want the gas"

You do realise the gas comes from Russia as Ukraine has virtually no gas of its own.

If they wanted the gas, the last thing the Germans would do is annoy the Russians by supporting the Ukrainians.

Unfortunately your point doesn't hold water.

Elmer Blooker

"they want the gas"
.... and its just waiting to be looted by western business interests.
Does anyone still seriously think this is about bringing "democracy" to Ukraine?
:rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shale_gas_by_country#Ukraine

aloyisious

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/troops-killed-amid-street-battles-639682.html

Interesting flag in the article photo.

Elmer Blooker

interesting flag alright. Where and when was this picture taken I wonder?
It can clearly be seen by the way people are dressed in this picture that it was taken in winter.

aloyisious

Except for the horizontal-band "Kilkenny-colours" flag, with the other flags, it might be any street-demo in Russia itself. Maybe it's a bit of "accidental dis-information" by the Examiner. Anyone know what/where that banded-flag might represent?

steveblack

Flag of the St George Ribbon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George

aloyisious

The photo seem's to be from Sevastopol, 20/3/2014..

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEQQFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.breakingnews.ie%2Fworld%2Fus-widens-sanctions-as-pro-russians-seize-ukraine-warships-625608.html&ei=Oa74U-XMAuHA7Aa_uIEo&usg=AFQjCNHbQ-OPr-chwb2grgL6cYX0WIODCA

aloyisious

Funny-peculiar. I'm reading today's online Indo about the Russian convoy which entered Ukraine the other day. It say's the convoy had entered the Russian city Donetsk. So I spent some time googling Donetsk. There at two Donetsk's, one is the disputed City in Ukraine and the other is a border town on the Russian side of the border. It seem's the report is mentioning the border town.


Trucks marked as being from a bitterly disputed Russian aid convoy to Ukraine stand in line as they return to Russia on the border post at Izvaryne, eastern Ukraine. An Associated Press reporter counted 67 trucks entering the border crossing in the Russian city of Donetsk before noon today. Another AP reporter on the Ukrainian side of the border said a line of trucks about 3 kilometers (2 miles) long was waiting to cross. The checkpoint on the Ukrainian side was being operated by separatist rebels, who inspected the trucks - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/trucks-roll-home-as-putin-ready-to-meet-ukrainians-30531298.html#sthash.c228E6hg.dpuf

Edit. I find it strange that the separatists on the Ukrainian side of the border would inspect the trucks, unless it was done for show (media) reasons. I can't see them imagining that the Russian convoy would hold anything inimicable to their cause.

Markcheese

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"they want the gas"
.... and its just waiting to be looted by western business interests.
Does anyone still seriously think this is about bringing "democracy" to Ukraine?
:rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shale_gas_by_country#Ukraine

From what I read it's more likely to be import replacement ( ie.not importing gas from Russia and turmenistan) .
And all the instability at the moment will put off investment in shale gas , especially since Ukraine has significant estimated reserves not proven reserves..
So while it could be the conflict still is all about the gas, it's more likely to be the Russians keeping their markets and neighbours in check...

pajor

One of the biggest media groups in Ukraine, 1+1 Media has launched a 24 hour English language news channel - the somewhat unoriginally named 'Ukraine Today.'

Taking on the 'war of misinformation from the Kremlin' etc etc.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28919683
http://www.uatoday.tv/

Devostator

Tell me one thing - if guys in Kiev so sure that those protesters in south-east are so few then why not let them have their referendum? Who needs this civil war? From what I see now the one to benefit is Kiev new government. Don't forget that ex-president was chosen by majority from south-east.

comongethappy

Devostator wrote: »

why not let them have their referendum?

They had one already.

It was a shambles, that not even the Kremlin attempted to recognise as legitimate.

In other news, a very odd parade yesterday.
Russian forces parading captured Ukrainian forces through the street to the abuse of crowds.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11053807/Prisoners-of-war-marched-through-streets-of-Donetsk.html

Ridiculous stuff.

aloyisious

comongethappy wrote: »

They had one already.

It was a shambles, that not even the Kremlin attempted to recognise as legitimate.

In other news, a very odd parade yesterday.
Russian forces parading captured Ukrainian forces through the street to the abuse of crowds.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11053807/Prisoners-of-war-marched-through-streets-of-Donetsk.html

Ridiculous stuff.

I saw that a few days ago. IMO, it's a coded message to the Kiev forces: attack the city by shells or bombs and you kill your own. There's no declared state of war so prisoner of war rules don't apply, ergo they are hostages to the "good behaviour" of their comrades in Kiev's military.

gandalf

Hmmm Russian troops caught in the Ukraine were there by "accident" according to Moscow LOL yeah right. We can assume that all the armour that crossed was by "accident" as well eh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

Hmmm Russian troops caught in the Ukraine were there by "accident" according to Moscow LOL yeah right. We can assume that all the armour that crossed was by "accident" as well eh

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

Russia's military have been "accidentally" crossing the border for months now.

After a while its barely news anymore.

C'mon Vladi.... at least be honourable enough to declare war properly.

Elmer Blooker

Ten troops hand themselves in without a shot being fired after claiming they accidentally crossed the border - they sound like Russian "special forces" to me :rolleyes:
We have been "told" (by Kiev and NATO) that up to 60,000 Russian troops were massed on the border ready to invade for six months now - its now down to ten!

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ten troops hand themselves in without a shot being fired after claiming they accidentally crossed the border - they sound like Russian "special forces" to me :rolleyes:
We have been "told" (by Kiev and NATO) that up to 60,000 Russian troops were massed on the border ready to invade for six months now - its now down to ten!

Those thousands are still over the border sitting on their hands.
You know that.

The lads captured on their orienteering weekend are just some of many seemingly forgetting their bearings.

Autonomous Cowherd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cikvqdMRTTA

Worth watching for an alternative POV. Sorry if already posted. Plus it won't embed for me..

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

Elmer is on another planet methinks.... A different reality altogether.

Territory annexed,
Rebellion fermented and controlled,
troops & weapons brought into Ukraine.....
And a column of Russian armour crossing to Ukraine last night.

But as always..... with everything, its Americas fault.

Its getting tragic.

Those "thousands" are obviously part this "invasion" on Aug 15th as reported by The Guardian and The Telegraph - remember?

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Those "thousands" are obviously part this "invasion" on Aug 15th as reported by The Guardian and The Telegraph - remember?

Your attempts at sarcasm are terrible!
My sympathies.

But who knows Elmer, any armoured incursions could be part of the 150 incoming promised by self declared Donetsk prime ministerAlexander Zakharchenko.

Maybe check with him for an update!