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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.
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Is that an attempt to win an argument?
Once you say "conspiracy theory" it's an attempt to discredit the opposing view. You may not know it but you are enacting CIA memo# 1035-960
Only morons cared about Victoria Nuland swearing....that was what the BBC highlighted. The issue of the call is who she is arranging to be in the government. Arseniy Yatsenyuk was who she wanted to be in charge....who is in charge by the way? "Biden's willing"...wonder why she said that?
Conspiracy theory waffle from you again.Ok, regarding the killing...how many died in the Crimea due to Russia taking over that area?
People died but thankfully only a few due to some absolutely amazing discipline from the Ukrainian forces in the face of some absolutely incredible intimidation from the Russian forces.
The fact that there was no major body count does not mitigate that this was an illegal land grab by Moscow. The vote was absolutely and utterly tainted and was illegal. Under the Ukrainian constitution a full vote of the whole country has to be initiated to allow a section to cede from the country.
BTW here are a couple of articles on how the Tartars lives have been made better since the illegal land grab.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/18/crimea-disappeared-man-found-killed
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/putin-soviet-therapy-crimea-20148207417556993.html
So much for Putins desire to protect minorities.If you want a serious debate then please leave the conspiracy stuff out....People like you shout it out when people question the gas attack in Syria, the WMDs in Iraq, the babies in the incubators in the first gulf war....and so on.....you go missing when the truth comes out.
The only thing going missing here is you. You fail to see what is really happening. I sincerely hope you are acting in this manner because you are directed to because if this is your heartfelt believe then there are more serious issues in your life.0 -
Of course...he's the new boogie man in the western press...difference between him and Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden is that Russia won't take that crap that was thrown at say the likes of Libya or Iraq.
What you don't need to make up is Victoria Nuland arranging who she wants in the Ukraine cabinet after the Western backed coup overthrew the government...you didn't need to make it up because you can hear the phone calls.
Putin is no saint but you must see it's not a case of good guys vs bad guys.
He's already sliced off part of Ukraine in Crimea and he's in the process of slicing off another chunk in Eastern Ukraine.
This has absolutely nothing to do with "western boggieman". It's to do with a guy who seems to think its ok to take over parts of neighbouring countries, and his apologists in Ireland and elsewhere actually think it's ok.
Whatever your views on a West-East relationship, you have to adhere to some basic principles that its not alright to send tanks into a neighbouring country and occupy it, it seems permanently.
When the Americans temporarily occupied Iraq there was outrage from certain quarters. When Russia permanently occupies parts of Ukraine, there is silence from the same quarter. I bet you won't see the Green Party, or People before Profit out protesting at Russian actions. Of course you won't. If the west acts, they protest. If anyone else acts, they simply don't want to know. Not enough votes in it clearly.0 -
Just when you think Kiev cant be any dumber than they already are.Ukraine the joke that just keeps giving. threatening to turn off European energy from Russia because thats a potentially really smart thing to do. idiots. now this.
Ukraine to request Nato membership:
Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk said today (29 August) that his government will introduce a proposal in Parliament to change the non-aligned status of the country, and to request membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/ukraine-request-nato-membership-308084?
good luck with that. tick dafuq tock.
It's probably their best option at the moment. Ukraine thought by not joining NATO it would save them from Russian incursion. In that they were sadly mistaken. There is no winning when you have someone like Putin next door.
Don't join NATO, Putin invades. Join NATO, Putin invades. Not much of a choice really. Cold War 2 has already started, let's be honest.
Do the Russians not remember how bad the first one was? Back to driving Lada's for them I guess.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »It's probably their best option at the moment. Ukraine thought by not joining NATO it would save them from Russian incursion. In that they were sadly mistaken. There is no winning when you have someone like Putin next door.
Don't join NATO, Putin invades. Join NATO, Putin invades. Not much of a choice really. Cold War 2 has already started, let's be honest.
Do the Russians not remember how bad the first one was? Back to driving Lada's for them I guess.
If Putins aim was to stop the Ukraine joining NATO then it looks like it has backfired dramatically. No wonder nearly all the former occupied states of Eastern Europe have chosen to join NATO. They know the true nature and politics of Russia and it is obvious that Russia especially under Putin only understands the language of brute force.
I feel sorry for the Russian people for a brief time they saw some light in their future, now it has been replaced by another cult of personality that will in all likelihood lead them to disaster. The magnitude of that disaster depends on how things transpire over the next few months I reckon.0 -
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If Putins aim was to stop the Ukraine joining NATO then it looks like it has backfired dramatically.
I agree with the thrust of your point except this.
Attacking Ukraine has very much made NATO membership next to impossible.
The whole point of mutual defence is that its a bluff that is never called.
Admitting a member already engaged in conflict with a powerful neighbour compels NATO members down a path the don't want to & are poorly equipped to go down.
There is as much chance Ireland joing NATO as Ukraine.
(at their emergency meeting NATO members were asked about their low & falling defence budgets.
All still refused to halt their military decline)0 -
Ukraine was always supposed to be a buffer between Europe and Russia. So long as neither side put military forces in Ukraine everything was fine. No need for Ukraine to join NATO.
Putin has broken that unwritten rule. The buffer concept is no longer there. So now you will have Russia ever closer to Europe.
Russia has brought the problem on itself. It is very likely Ukraine will be admitted to NATO as NATO will want to keep a close eye on an aggressively expanding Russia. And it's vital to keep Kiev on the side of NATO and the EU rather than allowing it fall under the control of Russia. The more Putin goes into Ukraine the nearer he gets to Kiev which may well be his ultimate aim.
The guy is a lunatic and nothing is beyond him at this stage. He keeps pushing the boundaries to see what he can get away with. If he thought he'd get away with using nukes, he would no problem.0 -
What Putin's achieved so far by this action:
1) European energy companies are deciding that they can't trust Russian gas supplies so are looking elsewhere. That isn't some kind of political conspiracy theory, but rather that gas and power companies do not want to have an insecure supply and are no longer convinced that Putin won't use the gas valves politically against European targets.
2) Europe had been quite relaxed about Russia and was increasingly normalising relations with it over the last few decades. There was almost zero hostility at all and all sorts of defence systems had been stepped down. France had even disposed of nuclear weapons that it thought it no longer needed. Putin then does this which is almost 100% guaranteeing that Europe will have to put defence capabilities back in place. That may be done through NATO but it's also going to start calls (especially by Eastern European and Nordic countries that border Russia) to militarise the EU. I can see France already calling for a EU defence strategy.
So, what he's managed to do is frighten off all of his customers and create a militarised EU.
Well done!
20+ years of normalisation of relationships flushed down the toilet.0 -
of course he doesn'trealweirdo wrote: »It's probably their best option at the moment. Ukraine thought by not joining NATO it would save them from Russian incursion. In that they were sadly mistaken. There is no winning when you have someone like Putin next door.
Don't join NATO, Putin invades. Join NATO, Putin invades. Not much of a choice really. Cold War 2 has already started, let's be honest.
Do the Russians not remember how bad the first one was? Back to driving Lada's for them I guess.
They still have enough.France had even disposed of nuclear weapons that it thought it no longer needed.0 -
carpejugulum wrote: »of course he doesn't
They still have enough.
He's already invaded and there is no sign of him withdrawing. Again if Ukraine joins NATO it will more than likely signal a larger invasion.
Basically he likes to p*ss all over Ukrainian soverignty, give two fingers to everyone and adopts a "what you gonna do about it?" attitude.0 -
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realweirdo wrote: »Basically he likes to p*ss all over Ukrainian soverignty, give two fingers to everyone and adopts a "what you gonna do about it?" attitude.
That was essentially the thrust of his speech today at his Putin Youth camp.0 -
comongethappy wrote: »That was essentially the thrust of his speech today at his Putin Youth camp.
"Putin Youth camp"?
It gets creepier and creepier doesn't it?
I hope we (the west) call his bluff and start actively helping Ukraine.0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »I hope we (the west) call his bluff and start actively helping Ukraine.
I hope we do not.
There's been two hundred years worth of war from this accursed area. So it's a good idea to go to war over it again, not this time baby, that region needs to sort itself out.0 -
InTheTrees wrote: »"Putin Youth camp"?
It gets creepier and creepier doesn't it?
Well, they call themselves "Nashi"
But yeah....your right , Creepy.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashi_(youth_movement)0 -
What makes me worried is this: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.err.ee%2Fv%2Fpolitics%2Fb55ece18-8ba9-4ac0-9fee-6c71d97fa4d9&ei=--IAVNiDIO_X7AaO1ID4Cw&usg=AFQjCNFux4GkVLHivchN6ZF50lWmyWaUiA
The Poles have been un-quiet about Russian involvement in Ukraine lately and Obama has said he will be talking with the US Congress about increasing US troop numbers in Europe. I think he's just trying to settle the nerves of small nations formerly members of the CCCP.0 -
How true. NATO are good at blowing the weak and defenceless to kingdom come but like all bullies will never pick on someone their own size.comongethappy wrote: »Admitting a member already engaged in conflict with a powerful neighbour compels NATO members down a path the don't want to & are poorly equipped to go down.0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »How true. NATO are good at blowing the weak and defenceless to kingdom come but like all bullies will never pick on someone their own size.
The same can be said for Russia.0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »How true. NATO are good at blowing the weak and defenceless to kingdom come but like all bullies will never pick on someone their own size.
Yes, because NATO, as an organisation, was not established to pick on other countries, to use your terminology. It was established as a collective defense against the predatory aggression of the Soviet Union, a time that Putin loving looks back upon and seems to be determined to return Russia to.0 -
One the conspiracy stuff...as I said if your only form of debate is saying....bla bla that's conspiracy stuff...that doesn't mean you win the argument...it just means you are attempting to discredit without actually making an argument.
Where you wrong on the gas in Syria?
Where you wrong on WMDs?
If so, then surely the BS from the Western media(which is always the same in every country) could be wrong again this time....If you stop to think, maybe just maybe you're not getting both sides of the story?
People comparing this to the Cold are just dumb....that was an ideological war...Russia and the USA both have far similar economies now so this is just a continuation of you being sold the narrative of the bad guy so that the people in control of the US get the steal more natural resources.
If you speak to a Russian they will tell you you can look at the larger situation as Russia being surrounded....similar to what the US is doing with Iran and China.
I guess they had to take a stand eventually.0 -
In the opinion of Russophiles, in the reported comment below given at a Russian Youth Camp, is V Putin merely expressing a desire to be left to his own devices by telling foreign governments (don't mess with us, Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers) or is it a mis-translation, maybe just a comment made for audience-participation? Taken at face value, it seem's like we're going back to 1962.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/its-best-not-to-mess-with-us-russia-is-one-of-the-leading-nuclear-powers-30548311.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-leaders-to-meet-as-putin-warns-not-to-mess-with-us-1.19124030 -
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It was probably for his internal audience, a continuance of the hard man cult of personality he has built up. Unless he has truly gone mad and not just a psychopath. Any nation that initiates a nuclear assault will be turned to ash with the response.
Heres an interesting article about some of the goings on in the background in the Kremlin.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/29/putin-world-kremlin-moscow-power-circleRevered, even feared, to the point where no one will contradict him; aloof, isolated, a digital hermit who is never out of touch; broadly supported, but very narrowly advised by an ever-tighter group of confidantes. This is the picture of Vladimir Putin and his leadership style painted by a number of people with knowledge of the inner workings of the Kremlin, at a time when such things matter more than at any time since the collapse of communism.0 -
You would believe anything that the gutter press makes up.AbusesToilets wrote: »Yes, because NATO, as an organisation, was not established to pick on other countries, to use your terminology. It was established as a collective defense against the predatory aggression of the Soviet Union, a time that Putin loving looks back upon and seems to be determined to return Russia to.
NATO is nothing more than the military wing of Wall Street. Has NATO ever got "involved" in a country that has no resources like oil and gas? NO.0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »You would believe anything that the gutter press makes up.
NATO is nothing more than the military wing of Wall Street. Has NATO ever got "involved" in a country that has no resources like oil and gas? NO.
Kosovo?0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »Has NATO ever got "involved" in a country that has no resources like oil and gas? NO.
You answer your own question & get it wrong.
Well done.
Elsewhere, citizens of Mariupol are digging trenches in preparation of incoming Russian forces from the south & east
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/aug/30/mariupol-residents-fortify-city-rebel-advance-eastern-ukraine-video
Pretty futile gesture, but what can they do?0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »You would believe anything that the gutter press makes up.
NATO is nothing more than the military wing of Wall Street. Has NATO ever got "involved" in a country that has no resources like oil and gas? NO.
Afghanistan0 -
realweirdo wrote: »It's probably their best option at the moment. Ukraine thought by not joining NATO it would save them from Russian incursion. In that they were sadly mistaken. There is no winning when you have someone like Putin next door.
Don't join NATO, Putin invades. Join NATO, Putin invades. Not much of a choice really. Cold War 2 has already started, let's be honest.
Do the Russians not remember how bad the first one was? Back to driving Lada's for them I guess.comongethappy wrote: »I agree with the thrust of your point except this.
Attacking Ukraine has very much made NATO membership next to impossible.
The whole point of mutual defence is that its a bluff that is never called.
Admitting a member already engaged in conflict with a powerful neighbour compels NATO members down a path the don't want to & are poorly equipped to go down.
There is as much chance Ireland joing NATO as Ukraine.
(at their emergency meeting NATO members were asked about their low & falling defence budgets.
All still refused to halt their military decline)
Real, comongethappys post is a good post which I agree with not much more I could add to it other than I dont believe the cold war truly ever ended and in this particular situation the Russians are holding the cards.
The French and British have been saying some things. and Im wondering if Cameron and the British have come down with their own case of phukwittery it seems to be in the air these days. the French first..
French President Says "There Is Risk Of War" As Europe Plans Additional Russia Sanctions:
For months Europe had thought that mere verbal (and hollow) threats, populist posturing and propaganda would be enough to force Russia's Putin to back off and withdraw from the endless Ukraine escalation, into a Kremlin cocoon with his tail between his legs. What they didn't anticipate was that Putin would in no way back down (as that would be seen as defeat and weakness by his numerous internal foes), nor would have have to: with Russia providing a third of European gas and with winter approaching, Russia had all the trumps cards from day one. Furthermore, as a result of escalating trade wars it is not Russia's economy that is hurting but Europe, which is on the verge of a historic triple-dip recession, only unlike 2010 and 2012, this time it is Europe's growth dynamo, Germany, itself which is leading the lemmings into the abyss.
Now, finally, Europe has realized that its "strategy" (if it ever had one, red: Obama's 'strategy' on dealing with ISIS) was flawed. It is with this mindset that European Union leaders met in Brussels earlier today and while, as usual, the the threat of new and improved sanctions to Russia was present, suddenly Europe's leaders seem far more "fearful of a new Cold War and self-inflicted harm to their own economies" and instead decided to give Moscow another chance to make peace according to Reuters.
Confirming Europe's realization just how serious events are, and how far down the rabbit hole Europe's bureaucrats have gone, French President Francois Hollande, while stressing that a failure by Russia to reverse a flow of weapons and troops into eastern Ukraine would force the bloc to impose new economic measures i.e., nothing new, it is what he said just after that indicated a dramatic change in rhetoric: "Are we going to let the situation worsen, until it leads to war?" Hollande said at a news conference. "Because that's the risk today. There is no time to waste."
Because when Europe, the cradle of both World War I and II talks war, it is a good idea to listen.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-30/french-president-says-there-risk-war-europe-plans-additional-russia-sanctions
and the British,..this is outrageous..
Ukraine Crisis: Russia Faces Swift Financial Transaction Systems Ban:
The UK government will push the European Union to stop Russia from using the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (Swift) transactions system over its military interference in Ukraine, according to a report.
Swift is a secure communications system used by financial institutions when they conduct transactions.
According to Bloomberg, which cited an unnamed official UK source, blocking Russia's financial sector from using Belgium-based Swift will be on the agenda when Prime Minister David Cameron meets other EU leaders in Brussels over the weekend beginning 30 August.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-faces-swift-financial-transaction-systems-ban-1463207
the only idea that is worse than attempting to freeze the Russians out of the international monetary system is going to war with them. freezing them out of swift is the financial equivalent to nuclear armageddon. if Cameron and the British are serious about this I can only conclude one of two things, Dave is a financially illiterate dangerous idiot or this is somehow designed to provoke the Russians into something. and knowing about Cameron and his families backround stockbrokers investors and such its hard to believe he is truly this dumb. or maybe he is the exception to the rule a little wet behind the ears. lets say his idea is a runner and Russia is frozen out of the monetary system how do the British or anyone else whom believes this is a smart move, propose we pay the Russians for monies owed like for our energy. magic beans maybe. fairy dust. maybe the Russians will take spuds for their spice. spice for spuds has a certain ring to it but somehow it just isnt going to work. I mean surely these things have crossed his mind. this is an insane thing to even contemplate let alone put on the table with the potential to be a starter. where are the adults at.0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »You would believe anything that the gutter press makes up.
NATO is nothing more than the military wing of Wall Street. Has NATO ever got "involved" in a country that has no resources like oil and gas? NO.
NATO didn't fight the recent middle Eastern wars.0 -
Real, comongethappys post is a good post which I agree with not much more I could add to it other than I dont believe the cold war truly ever ended and in this particular situation the Russians are holding the cards.
The French and British have been saying some things. and Im wondering if Cameron and the British have come down with their own case of phukwittery it seems to be in the air these days. the French first..
French President Says "There Is Risk Of War" As Europe Plans Additional Russia Sanctions:
For months Europe had thought that mere verbal (and hollow) threats, populist posturing and propaganda would be enough to force Russia's Putin to back off and withdraw from the endless Ukraine escalation, into a Kremlin cocoon with his tail between his legs. What they didn't anticipate was that Putin would in no way back down (as that would be seen as defeat and weakness by his numerous internal foes), nor would have have to: with Russia providing a third of European gas and with winter approaching, Russia had all the trumps cards from day one. Furthermore, as a result of escalating trade wars it is not Russia's economy that is hurting but Europe, which is on the verge of a historic triple-dip recession, only unlike 2010 and 2012, this time it is Europe's growth dynamo, Germany, itself which is leading the lemmings into the abyss.
Now, finally, Europe has realized that its "strategy" (if it ever had one, red: Obama's 'strategy' on dealing with ISIS) was flawed. It is with this mindset that European Union leaders met in Brussels earlier today and while, as usual, the the threat of new and improved sanctions to Russia was present, suddenly Europe's leaders seem far more "fearful of a new Cold War and self-inflicted harm to their own economies" and instead decided to give Moscow another chance to make peace according to Reuters.
Confirming Europe's realization just how serious events are, and how far down the rabbit hole Europe's bureaucrats have gone, French President Francois Hollande, while stressing that a failure by Russia to reverse a flow of weapons and troops into eastern Ukraine would force the bloc to impose new economic measures i.e., nothing new, it is what he said just after that indicated a dramatic change in rhetoric: "Are we going to let the situation worsen, until it leads to war?" Hollande said at a news conference. "Because that's the risk today. There is no time to waste."
Because when Europe, the cradle of both World War I and II talks war, it is a good idea to listen.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-30/french-president-says-there-risk-war-europe-plans-additional-russia-sanctions
and the British,..this is outrageous..
Ukraine Crisis: Russia Faces Swift Financial Transaction Systems Ban:
The UK government will push the European Union to stop Russia from using the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication (Swift) transactions system over its military interference in Ukraine, according to a report.
Swift is a secure communications system used by financial institutions when they conduct transactions.
According to Bloomberg, which cited an unnamed official UK source, blocking Russia's financial sector from using Belgium-based Swift will be on the agenda when Prime Minister David Cameron meets other EU leaders in Brussels over the weekend beginning 30 August.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-faces-swift-financial-transaction-systems-ban-1463207
the only idea that is worse than attempting to freeze the Russians out of the international monetary system is going to war with them. freezing them out of swift is the financial equivalent to nuclear armageddon. if Cameron and the British are serious about this I can only conclude one of two things, Dave is a financially illiterate dangerous idiot or this is somehow designed to provoke the Russians into something. and knowing about Cameron and his families backround stockbrokers investors and such its hard to believe he is truly this dumb. or maybe he is the exception to the rule a little wet behind the ears. lets say his idea is a runner and Russia is frozen out of the monetary system how do the British or anyone else whom believes this is a smart move, propose we pay the Russians for monies owed like for our energy. magic beans maybe. fairy dust. maybe the Russians will take spuds for their spice. spice for spuds has a certain ring to it but somehow it just isnt going to work. I mean surely these things have crossed his mind. this is an insane thing to even contemplate let alone put on the table with the potential to be a starter. where are the adults at.
Could always use SEPA.
Basically you are arguing that Europe should roll over and do what the Russians want because they control the gas and Europe is in bad shape financially. That's arguing for the Findlandisation of Europe.0 -
well no. no Im not arguing for that. and if you believe the Russians after being kicked out of swift will accept sepa as an alternative I would suggest you are mistaken because they wont. sepa covers 34 European countries. Russia isnt one of them. its a system designed to standardise European electronic payments, its specific.internationally outside Europe there is no alternative to swift in place.0
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comongethappy wrote: »Today the EU gave Russia 7 days to withdraw forces from Ukraine.
Not much of a stern warning.
The EU might as well threaten to hold their breath till they pass out!
Yep very weak from Europe so far. I doubt very much that Russia will take that seriously at all.
It's looking like another "Peace in our time" moment soon.0
This discussion has been closed.
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