Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Manach

Reading from the texts from the history of the 30s (Burleigh, Shirler etc), there are some parallels including balancing between the real dangers posed by aggression and the domestic forces who perferred to remain isolationist. However unlike the 30s, at less Munich gave the British some time to prepare for coming military action. Now, given the fragmented, disunited peoples in Europe driven by an EU ministerial caste that rarely reflects any interest outside their own progressive vision of society - there will be no preparation, just shriller brandishing of papers.

AbusesToilets

You have to wonder at what Russia's long term goal is in supporting the rebels in Donetsk. The situation in Crimea was clear enough, with the naval port and secured sea access the prize, what is there in the east of Ukraine that is worth all the disruption that this conflict is bringing.

Are however many more hundreds of miles of territory worth the economic impact and potential for an expanded military confrontation with Europe?

sin_city

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You have to wonder at what Russia's long term goal is in supporting the rebels in Donetsk. The situation in Crimea was clear enough, with the naval port and secured sea access the prize, what is their in the east of Ukraine that is worth all the disruption that this conflict is bringing.

Really?

Aren’t the rebels Russian?

Do you think they are halting what they would see as ever increasing NATO expansion around their borders?

There are so many reason why they are supporting the rebels and if you can’t see them I guess that explains a lot…Turn off the TV and try to understand both sides

AbusesToilets

Is supporting a small group of rebels worth escalating international tensions to the point of potential war with Europe/ NATO and the possible ruination of the Russian economy?

How dare all those countries that were formally oppressed under the Soviets look for a way to safeguard their sovereignty, how recklessly irresponsible of them. Recent events have certainly shown that Russia is likely to respect their territory and can be a trusted partner in international relations.

sin_city

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is supporting a small group of rebels worth escalating international tensions to the point of potential war with Europe/ NATO and the possible ruination of the Russian economy?

How dare all those countries that were formally oppressed under the Soviets look for a way to safeguard their sovereignty, how recklessly irresponsible of them. Recent events have certainly shown that Russia is likely to respect their territory and can be a trusted partner in international relations.

The previous democratically elected government(admittedly corrupt) chose to side with Russia instead of the EU and was then ousted by a NATO backed coup with installed neo nazis.

You seem to be picking up the story mid way. If anyone is to blame it is the Americans who are pushing Europe to put sanctions against Russia which could risk their gas supply in the future. It is the US who are really the ones that are reckless....WTF are they doing in the Ukraine anyway?

Once again....Ukraine had sided with Russia not the EU before the coup.

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

The previous democratically elected government(admittedly corrupt) chose to side with Russia instead of the EU

Predictably biased & innacurate.

It was the Ukrainian administration that sought a trade deal with the EU.

The bill confirming this was rejected by the Ukrainian parliament because of strings attached by the EU pertaining to human rights & specifically Yulia Tymoshenko.

There was no "instead".
President Yanukovich was just broadening the market his country could sell to.....(how dare he!)
Thus incurring the Kremlins ire that a vassal president would dare broaden his horizons, but a few million dollars transfered to the bank a/c of President Yanukovich eased the Ukrainian leaders disappointment.

Markcheese

Russia(and then soviets and now russia again) seems to view it's neighbors/other states as either vassals or enemies, with little between, so with Ukraine not playing exactly the Moscow game they became an enemy.
So long term destabilization of Ukraine is a goal in itself ...carving off pieces to be novorussia will keep more of the interior off balance and with little international investment ...so they'll still need to buy and transit Russian gas ....
The deal Russia did recently with china means they have another player to invest in and buy their energy, so long term i doubt the Russian economy is fecked,

gandalf

sincity can you post your proof that it was a "NATO backed coup" please. I would love to see it in black and white.

As for Europe risking its Gas supply, well sometimes you have to do things that hurt to stand up to an aggressive rogue nation which Russia appears to be becoming. In the longer term all Putins blatant disregard of international law has guaranteed is that Europe will be diversifying its reliance on Russia for anything. If Russia continues on this path it will be isolated and isolated for a very long time.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

sincity can you post your proof that it was a "NATO backed coup" please. I would love to see it in black and white.

Something.... Something..... Victoria Nuland....

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

Something.... Something..... Victoria Nuland....

Oh I fully expect it. He will carry on unchecked with his Rinse, Repeat, Rinse, Repeat propaganda dissemination of information.

Didn't realise she was in NATO or in charge of NATO

Morpheus

In fairness. I think she was correct in her choice of words.

EU has become too liberal, too left in governing its foreign relations and too right in governing its own citizens, it smacks of juvenile introverted politics

What the EU needs to do is remember weve twice been the most fought over battleground in the last century, realise that Russia is a rabid dog and we should tell Putin to F**K OFF.

instead we get limp wristed attempts to chastise him with poxy trade sanctions. Putin doesnt care, he is a war monger. I feel most sorry for the lied to, bullsh*t propaganda fed Russian people and the Ukrainians dying for nothing at the hand of the Russian Leadership. he's in Ukrainian blood up to his elbows.

sin_city

gandalf wrote: »

Didn't realise she was in NATO or in charge of NATO

Who is in charge of NATO?

Incredible that every western country follows whatever the US says like a bunch of dogs.

At least I know that China, Russia and other countries have independence as they make different decisions on different issues.

All I see from the west is war mongering crap like John McCain....Really surprised lots of people support that type of stuff.


Regarding the coup which involved neo nazis....are people here actually saying the US did not support this?

Are you comfortable supporting neo nazis?

I don't think anyone knew exactly who was involved in previous US backed coups in numerous countries but the truth came out years later.

So this is what we are supposed to believe...Big Bad Vlad is the new Hitler and is set on setting up the USSR again?

I see John McCain said it.....so it must be true

gandalf

sin_city wrote: »

Who is in charge of NATO?

Its members.

Incredible that every western country follows whatever the US says like a bunch of dogs.

Proof please.

At least I know that China, Russia and other countries have independence as they make different decisions on different issues.

Well Russia throws aside international law at the drop of a hat when it suits her.

All I see from the west is war mongering crap like John McCain....Really surprised lots of people support that type of stuff.

And all we see is Vladimir Putins Russia pouring troops and arms over the border into another sovereign country de-stablishing it totally for their own gain at the expense of the population of that country and at the risk of the security of the whole of Europe.

And to top it off we have to endure the vocal apologists of this spouting crud.

Regarding the coup which involved neo nazis....are people here actually saying the US did not support this?

AGAIN POST PROOF OF THIS! And it better not be the ****in Nuland phone call!

Are you comfortable supporting neo nazis?

How many Neo Nazi's are in the Ukrainian Government. Give me a number please. And then answer this "Were they elected by the Ukrainian People"?

Again I love the fact that you and others label the Ukrainian Government as Nazi's when it appears that half the worlds known Nazi's are based in Russia.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3718255&page=1

I don't think anyone knew exactly who was involved in previous US backed coups in numerous countries but the truth came out years later.

And what about Russia involvement in Coups and destablising of countries, hmmm like the Ukraine for example.

So this is what we are supposed to believe...Big Bad Vlad is the new Hitler and is set on setting up the USSR again?

If he acts like a Nazi, uses Nazi tactics, sends his troops in like Nazi then I think people are justified calling him a Nazi!

I see John McCain said it.....so it must be true

I haven't read any of John McCains opinions at all. His opinion means nothing to me, a bit like yours.

comongethappy

sin_city wrote: »

Are you comfortable supporting neo nazis?

No.

Are you?

(Seeing as Putin's Russia has no equal in Europe for authoritarianism & right wing ideology)

The double standard the Kremlin apologists must wrestle with.

steveblack

“Long live the White Races, and down with the Semite-led subhumans and interracial contacts”

and

“The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival. A crusade against the Semite-led subhumans”.

and

“Punish severely sexual perversions and any interracial contacts that lead to the extinction of the white man”.

And

“Prepare for further expansion and to struggle for the liberation of the entire White Race from the domination of the internationalist speculative capital”.

The person who said this is the commander of the the Azov Battalion currently fighting to “liberate” eastern Ukraine from the evil Russians.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/

The Ukrainian government fully supports the actions of this man in liquidating the (in their words) Semites and Semite-led subhumans in Eastern Ukraine. In this “historic mission” of theirs, they are being completely supported to carry it out with impunity by the member countries of the EU and NATO, and the USA.

So as a EU citizen, our governments elected by us to carry out the will of the EU citizens are facilitating, condoning, supporting and encouraging these views.
As a EU citizen do you feel satisfied, or proud of yourself, for your association with these views?

More people have died in the Ukraine through indiscriminate shelling and bombing than were killed in Gaza over the corresponding period.

To illustrate the level of impunity which this support has now led the persons implementing this “solution” to their “problem” enjoy, please see here a recent public quote from the Prime Minister of Ukraine; who was installed in his post not according to the will of the Ukrainian people, but rather according to the will of the USA.

“They lost their lives because they defended men and women, children and the elderly who found themselves in a situation facing a threat to be killed by invaders and sponsored by them subhumans. First, we will commemorate the heroes by wiping out those who killed them and then by cleaning our land from the evil”.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk – Prime Minister of Ukraine

http://www.moonofalabama.org/images4/subhumans.jpg

It seems that once the “heroic” wiping out of the subhumans has been completed in the main, the Ukrainian government also has a plan in place for how to deal with the ones who’re still there. Here it is:

"There will be a thorough filtration of people. There will be special filtration measures put in place. We will filter out people, including women, who are linked to separatism, who were committing crimes on Ukrainian territory. Crimes related to terrorist activities. We have a lot of information about this, and we have a formidable framework to combat this. Various power structures will carry out this operation.
Mykhailo Koval – Minister of Defence of Ukraine


One wonders what the Ukrainian government who formulated this plan had in mind. Perhaps if they closed their eyes and thought about it they could catch the faint sound of freight trains moving off into the dark of the night, traveling to parts unknown; full to the brim with an unusual cargo. It would not be the first time something like this has happened in Ukraine.

So with the blessing of the Ukrainian government these type of groups are doing there work in cleansing the east of Ukraine, they daily break multiple Ukrainian and International laws.

So Russia bad and these guys are the goods ones?

comongethappy

steveblack wrote: »

So Russia bad and these guys are the goods ones?

Neither side are the good guys.

One far-right country is attacking & conquering another far-right country.

Why side with the attacker?

stevedublin

comongethappy wrote: »

Why side with the attacker?

He is not siding with the Ukrainians

Red Nissan

steveblack wrote: »

So Russia bad and these guys are the goods ones?

This is the problem with the simpleton society development that the West in general and the US in particular subscribe to.

In Syria one group is a Terrorist Group, in IRAQ, the US want to support that same group. In the Ukraine one has pretty much two devils, and the Ukrainian Government had a Freedom Day Parade recently instead of sending all that armor to the front lines?????

sin_city

gandalf wrote: »

Its members.

Well quite a lot of Germans want nothing to do with supporting the new Ukraine government or sanctions....How can they get out of this?

In Berliner Tagesspiegel 80% regarded official criticism of Moscow as “hypocritical”.

A poll by the ARD television channel, released in early March, found that 82 percent of respondents were against the use of military force against Russia. Two-thirds rejected economic sanctions.

That's just Germans....so NATO's members are running NATO but they are not accountable to the opinions of the citizens...just like bankers I guess.

Most people are not war mongers like you.

gandalf wrote: »

AGAIN POST PROOF OF THIS! And it better not be the ****in Nuland phone call!

Who did she want to be the leader on the call?
Who is the leader at the moment?

I'll stop bringing it up if you stop avoiding answering the above questions.

If you read this article please let me know what you disagree with
http://scgnews.com/washingtons-role-in-the-ukrainian-coup-how-it-may-spin-out-of-control

gandalf wrote: »

How many Neo Nazi's are in the Ukrainian Government. Give me a number please. And then answer this "Were they elected by the Ukrainian People"?

Again I love the fact that you and others label the Ukrainian Government as Nazi's when it appears that half the worlds known Nazi's are based in Russia.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3718255&page=1

36 voted in and specifically the neo nazi party hold the following positions:

Vice Prime Minister
Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources
Minister of Agriculture

There are currently no ring wing members of the Russian cabinet.

gandalf wrote: »

And what about Russia involvement in Coups and destablising of countries, hmmm like the Ukraine for example.

Wasn't the previous government democratically elected??
Where has Russia destabilized? Afghanistan when it was the USSR? Is that what you mean?

gandalf wrote: »

If he acts like a Nazi, uses Nazi tactics, sends his troops in like Nazi then I think people are justified calling him a Nazi!

Who McCain or the people in the Ukrainian cabinet?
No?? Eh, the guy invading loads of countries with oil and bombing using drones....I dunno, tell me....was it mentioned on the BBC?

gandalf wrote: »

I haven't read any of John McCains opinions at all. His opinion means nothing to me, a bit like yours.

Well he has the exact same opinions as you....You must watch the same TV channels.

K-9

Morpheus wrote: »

instead we get limp wristed attempts to chastise him with poxy trade sanctions. Putin doesnt care, he is a war monger. I feel most sorry for the lied to, bullsh*t propaganda fed Russian people and the Ukrainians dying for nothing at the hand of the Russian Leadership. he's in Ukrainian blood up to his elbows and needs to be taken out KGB style.

Mod:

If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people and/or deserve prison/execution as traitors, think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in.

Suggesting Putin needs to be taken out KGB style comes under that style of posting.

gandalf wrote:

His opinion means nothing to me, a bit like yours.

sin_city wrote:

Most people are not war mongers like you.

Seriously, last warning on this type of sniping.

Morpheus

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:
Suggesting Putin needs to be taken out KGB style comes under that style of posting.

apologies for this. aws too angry when pressing submit, will think somewhat more clearly next time.

Fig of Fallacy

h t t p:// w w w.globalresearch.ca/the-donetsk-national-republic-dnr-this-is-a-fight-for-independence-now/5398688

Dont know was this linked or talked about already. Leaders of Donetsk National Republic giving a press conference. Very interesting stuff. Subtitles included.

(link with spaces as cannot post otherwise)

carpejugulum

Interesting piece in NY Times.

Arm Ukraine or Surrender

Russia and Ukraine are now at war. At least 2,200 people have died in the conflict; thousands more may die yet. The Western powers — America, Europe, NATO — now have no good options, but they cannot do nothing. President Vladimir V. Putin has left us with two dire choices, both fraught with risk: Either we arm Ukraine, or we force Kiev to surrender and let Mr. Putin carve whatever territories he wants into a Russian-occupied zone of “frozen conflict.”

Red Nissan

carpejugulum wrote: »

Interesting piece in NY Times.

Arm Ukraine or Surrender

Anyone see the pictures of Ukraine's military parade?

Jump in 8 minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxFfWObjKSc

comongethappy

Red Nissan wrote: »

Anyone see the pictures of Ukraine's military parade?

Jump in 8 minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxFfWObjKSc

Particularly liked @ 15:20.
I believe they are known as the "cool as fook" brigade!

Got a bit Eurovisioney at the end & the ceremonial pie was odd.

Markcheese

Red Nissan wrote: »

Anyone see the pictures of Ukraine's military parade?

Jump in 8 minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxFfWObjKSc

The ministry of silly walks???

realweirdo

From what I understand of the conflict, there are no good guys and both sides are almost equally at fault for creating this situation. Not sure flooding the region with more weapons is a solution, in fact I'm sure it isn't. Ukraine are in an almost impossible situation. It's looking increasingly like the Ukrainians can't win this conflict and eastern Ukraine will eventually go the way of Crimea. The question is where does Putin stop? A chunk of eastern Ukraine and a land corridor to Crimea? Or does he go all the way to Kiev. You just don't know with Putin. People said he would never invade eastern Ukraine and he's just done that. No sooner do people say he won't do this or that than he goes ahead and does it anyways. And he clearly hates the West for some reason best known to himself. Probably nostalgic for the good old days when Russians queued up to buy the latest Lada model or around the block to buy food, and Russian soldiers could be sent to their deaths by the thousands and no-one question it and their nuclear infrastructure was falling apart.

carpejugulum

realweirdo wrote: »

From what I understand of the conflict, there are no good guys and both sides are almost equally at fault for creating this situation.

more Russian propaganda nonsense

Russia attacked a sovereign country so it's obviously at fault.

sin_city

carpejugulum wrote: »

more Russian propaganda nonsense

Russia attacked a sovereign country so it's obviously at fault.

Has Russia killed anyone?

More than the Nazis involved in the coup that overthrew the democratically elected government?

There are more types of invasion other than military....and on that...I repeat...please number the deaths.

The rebels in the east are fighting against Western supported nazi oppression.

The correct thing to do would be to split the country to avoid all the deaths and give West Ukraine the right to do what it wants and the same to East.

Gatling

sin_city wrote: »

Has Russia killed anyone?

Several hundred Ukrainian soldiers to be exact not including the civilian airliner shot down