Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Frank Lee Midere

sin_city wrote: »

Has Russia killed anyone?

More than the Nazis involved in the coup that overthrew the democratically elected government?

There are more types of invasion other than military....and on that...I repeat...please number the deaths.

The rebels in the east are fighting against Western supported nazi oppression.

The correct thing to do would be to split the country to avoid all the deaths and give West Ukraine the right to do what it wants and the same to East.

Nazis my arse. The right wing got about 2% of the vote in the Ukraine - just Russian propoganda Putin is closer to fascism than any western government.

It's hard to tell if pro Putinism is a far left or far right ideology. Or some new hybrid of nonsense.

BuilderPlumber

Agreement has to be reached sooner or later. The fact it that half of Ukraine wants to be in the EU and half wants to be closer to Russia. Without some sort of a breakup of the place, I can't see either the Western half being ok with the idea of being part of Russia or the Eastern half being happy EU members.

As regards Putin: he is basically a communist Russian leader who grew up in the USSR and was involved in the KGB and USSR politics. The party he and Boris Yeltsin before him run is the successor to the old USSR communist party. Putin and Yeltsin were Russia's 2 post USSR leaders. The CIS was founded to replace the USSR. In reality, most leaders of the ex USSR countries tended to be the USSR era governor so in reality Russia still had influence. Leonid Kuchma in Ukraine was a trusted Russian ally. Yanokovych was the same.

Like many communists, Putin has developed a more nationalistic politics now. He now sees parts of what was the USSR and Tsarist Russia before that now EU States. I know he does not recognise Ukraine as anything other than a Russian provice. He thinks of it like we think of Cork or Galway or Donegal.

Like it or not, the cold war is back or more correctly was never gone. Russia and the West are vying for the same resources and flareups are going to happen in places like Ukraine which is sandwiched between the two. Russia is lead by the same party that ruled it in Soviet times. The fall of communism was unique in that the communists in reality just rebranded themselves and maintained power. Yeltsin and Putin were both communist party people who provided a smooth transfer of power from the USSR to the Russian Federation and CIS.

sin_city

Gatling wrote: »

Several hundred Ukrainian soldiers to be exact not including the civilian airliner shot down

Holy crap....I didn't actually think the propaganda worked that well.

Ok, give me proof on the airliner other than the front page from The Sun.

Note, Russia is asking for an update on the black box....not anyone else

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11065413/Russia-demands-publication-of-recordings-from-downed-flight-MH17.html

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-08-30/russia-demands-mh17-black-box-data-release/

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Nazis my arse. The right wing got about 2% of the vote in the Ukraine - just Russian propoganda Putin is closer to fascism than any western government.

It's hard to tell if pro Putinism is a far left or far right ideology. Or some new hybrid of nonsense.

As I mentioned the nazi element hold 3 cabinet posts including the vice president one....Do your homework before you write rubbish like that 2%

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Like many communists, Putin ...... Russia is lead by the same party that ruled it in Soviet times..

More rubbish, the Communist party are only a small party in the Russian parliament.

Putin is doing nothing communist at all....What socialist programs is he running?

Gatling

sin_city wrote: »

Holy crap....I didn't actually think the propaganda worked that well.

Ok, give me proof on the airliner other than the front page from The Sun.

Note, Russia is asking for an update on the black box....not anyone else

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11065413/Russia-demands-publication-of-recordings-from-downed-flight-MH17.html

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-08-30/russia-demands-mh17-black-box-data-release/



As I mentioned the nazi element hold 3 cabinet posts including the vice president one....Do your homework before you write rubbish like that 2%

You keep referring to nazi and propaganda
Yes the Russian military and the almighty Vladimir .

You couldn't have phrased better

sin_city

Gatling wrote: »

You keep referring to nazi and propaganda
Yes the Russian military and the almighty Vladimir .

You couldn't have phrased better

You keep ignoring the facts I post with snarly remarks.

Is that an attempt to win a debate?

Challenge me on my post’s authenticity or provide statistical facts of your own…

Name calling like a 6 six year old merely makes you appear to have the intelligence of one and I know you are smarter than that.

Gatling

sin_city wrote: »

You keep ignoring the facts I post with snarly remarks.

Is that an attempt to win a debate?

Challenge me on my post’s authenticity or provide statistical facts of your own…

Name calling like a 6 six year old merely makes you appear to have the intelligence of one and I know you are smarter than that.

The facts speak for themselves or let me guess your believe the Crimea was invaded and returned to mother land by concerned citizens of Russia ,
Who and a how many Russian citizens were attacked and killed in Crimea ??
by the big bad western Ukraine exactly ,??

did eastern Ukrainians just happen to fall over the latest military issue equipment and vehicles and attack local government buildings and take them over ,

how did these Russian citizens get there hands on the latest surface to air missile defence system and shoot down a civilian airliner,

It's all a pro western nazi propaganda cia/ dark ops conspiracy to defame Vladimir putin .

So the aggressors in all this are the Russians and the cronies put in to power in eastern Ukraine .

Because I don't see any EU troops or the latest military equipment invading the sovereign state of Ukraine ,

I don't see any US military troops or latest military equipment invade the sovereign state of Ukraine.

Your references to nazis and propaganda seem pretty delusional and without any merit

realweirdo

sin_city wrote: »

You keep ignoring the facts I post with snarly remarks.

Is that an attempt to win a debate?

Challenge me on my post’s authenticity or provide statistical facts of your own…

Name calling like a 6 six year old merely makes you appear to have the intelligence of one and I know you are smarter than that.

Is there even a point? If someone says something critical of Russia you immediately condemn it as anti-Russian propaganda. If someone mentions incriminating evidence to point to Russian seperatists, its written off as lies.

Let's all celebrate Russia instead, say it can do no harm, completely innocent and blameless, and everyone else is at fault.

There, happy?

sin_city

Call me out on Russia demanding the black box or the 3 cabinet positions held by the nazi party....

Avoiding this and rambling is just worthless in a debate.

realweirdo

sin_city wrote: »

Call me out on Russia demanding the black box or the 3 cabinet positions held by the nazi party....

Avoiding this and rambling is just worthless in a debate.

How exactly does having 3 "nazi" ministers in a short term power sharing government merit invasion from another country? Most MPs from the former presidents party actually voted to impeach that old president. Or do you think it was ok for that former president to kill mostly unarmed protesters in cold blood? Maybe you think after killing almost 100 people he should be reinstated? He was a corrupt murderous puppet of Russia, nothing more.

Austria had neo nazi ministers a few years ago. Should they have been invaded too?

Gatling

sin_city wrote: »

Call me out on Russia demanding the black box or the 3 cabinet positions held by the nazi party....

Avoiding this and rambling is just worthless in a debate.

The black boxes are in the UK didn't nobody tell you .

More fact

sin_city

Gatling wrote: »

The black boxes are in the UK didn't nobody tell you .

More fact

You're a genius...Now tell me why do you think Russia are demanding the recordings to be published?

Why do you think they have not been published?

Gatling

sin_city wrote: »

You're a genius...Now tell me why do you think Russia are demanding the recordings to be published?

Why do you think they have not been published?

Let's me guess nazi propaganda is your next post .

All I see is Russia demanding Ukraine surrender or face onslaught in there own sovereign country

sin_city

Gatling wrote: »

Let's me guess nazi propaganda is your next post .

All I see is Russia demanding Ukraine surrender or face onslaught in there own sovereign country

Ignored my previous post again…..LOL, Ok, I’ll ask again…Why do you think Russia are demanding the recordings of the black box be published and why do you think they have not been published?

BlaasForRafa

sin_city wrote: »

You're a genius...Now tell me why do you think Russia are demanding the recordings to be published?

Why do you think they have not been published?

Because they aren't finished going through the data on the black boxes presumably.

Black Swan

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

h t t p:// w w w.globalresearch.ca/the-donetsk-national-republic-dnr-this-is-a-fight-for-independence-now/5398688

Dont know was this linked or talked about already. Leaders of Donetsk National Republic giving a press conference. Very interesting stuff. Subtitles included.

(link with spaces as cannot post otherwise)

carpejugulum wrote: »

Interesting piece in NY Times.

Arm Ukraine or Surrender

Red Nissan wrote: »

Anyone see the pictures of Ukraine's military parade?

Jump in 8 minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxFfWObjKSc

MOD REMINDER:
Politics is a discussion forum. It is not a news dump or vid-only post forum. You must discuss any links or vids that you post in terms of the thread topic and how they contribute to our discussion. Please read charter before posting again.

sin_city

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Because they aren't finished going through the data on the black boxes presumably.

Well then why aren't the Western countries who were so quick to blame Putin also demanding the recordings be published?

Doesn't seem to bother them right now? They were so aggressive in blaming specifically Putin a few weeks ago when evidence was not available....Now it is the Russians demanding we see evidence but the blame on Russia has all but disappeared.

BlaasForRafa

sin_city wrote: »

Well then why aren't the Western countries who were so quick to blame Putin also demanding the recordings be published?

Doesn't seem to bother them right now? They were so aggressive in blaming specifically Putin a few weeks ago when evidence was not available....Now it is the Russians demanding we see evidence but the blame on Russia has all but disappeared.

Huh? Why should anyone DEMAND that the recordings be published now? The work takes as long as it takes and when it's done a report will be issued, just like any other air tragedy investigation.

What do you think the black boxes are going to prove anyway, commercial airliners don't have missile detection systems so the black boxes by themselves probably won't prove much one way or another. Damage to the fuselage will probably be a much better indicator of the cause of the downing of MH17.

And I don't see how the "blame on Russia has all but disappeared", people are rather more concerned about the current Russian invasion of Ukraine so MH17 has slipped from the current news agenda. When there is something to actually report from the MH17 investigation then the focus will be back on it.

In any case your harping on about this has the feel that you're trying to introduce some CT and try to deflect the discussion away from what russian forces are up to in Ukraine.

sin_city

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Huh? Why should anyone DEMAND that the recordings be published now? The work takes as long as it takes and when it's done a report will be issued, just like any other air tragedy investigation.

Why?? Are you insane? To clear their name from having any involvement in what took place.

How long does this work take?

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

What do you think the black boxes are going to prove anyway, commercial airliners don't have missile detection systems so the black boxes by themselves probably won't prove much one way or another. Damage to the fuselage will probably be a much better indicator of the cause of the downing of MH17.

I don't know....Maybe they should just close the case as an unsolved mystery? What a silly waste of time these black boxes are.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

And I don't see how the "blame on Russia has all but disappeared", people are rather more concerned about the current Russian invasion of Ukraine so MH17 has slipped from the current news agenda. When there is something to actually report from the MH17 investigation then the focus will be back on it.

In any case your harping on about this has the feel that you're trying to introduce some CT and try to deflect the discussion away from what russian forces are up to in Ukraine.

Ha here we go...Losing a debate so pull out the CT tactic to denegrade the opposing view

Yes, the blame on Russia has disappeared....hence Russia demanding the recordings be published and not anyone from the west.

Elmer Blooker

with the NATO "boys with toys" frothing at the mouth with excitement ahead of their summit this week it's good to know that there are sane people like this woman in America. I never heard of her until I saw her on Euronews last night.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/dianne-feinstein-more-sanctions-might-not-work-against-russia/article/2552668

so MH17 has slipped from the current news agenda

I don't think it "slipped" from the news, it was dropped like a ton of bricks.
To go from a violent hate filled anti Russia propaganda campaign to sudden complete silence in not normal!

BuilderPlumber

sin_city wrote: »

More rubbish, the Communist party are only a small party in the Russian parliament.

Putin is doing nothing communist at all....What socialist programs is he running?

First off, a bit of manners would go well in this discussion. What I said is not rubbish and once again misinterpreted.

Secondly, I never said Putin was a dedicated communist. I am fully aware that the USSR communist party disbanded in 1991 and a small successor communist party emerged. But Putin's party (Yeltsin's before that) was a newly created entity that many high ranking ex communists joined. Incl. Yeltsin.

Putin was a KGB man and ideology wise communism is not in favour anymore in Russia. But the old USSR flag and/or the hammer and sickle is often used as a symbol of Russian nationalism and you can see it often in Ukraine.

Pure communism in Russia never really got going anyhow. Lenin discovered he needed some hybrid hence the new economic policy of the early 20s. Stalin found state capitalism mixed with communism and a personality cult worked. Khruschev and Brezhnev toned down Stalin's excesses but maintained a mix of pragmatic styles that worked ok until the later Brezhnev era when stagnation set in. Hence, Gorbachev more or less took all the communism out of the equation and had to turn the USSR into a market economy. Yelstin and Putin followed this lead.

China did more or less the same. Albeit still officially lead by the communists and officially a communist country. But is more a state capitalist country with a massive market economy, supplying the world with electronics.

Putin does not run any socialist agendas in Russia. It is and official is a capitalist country and has been since at least the late 1980s really. Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko and especially Gorbachev all pragmatically used capitalism and even despised Tsarist policies when it suited them thus eschewing in Russia's first officially capitalist non-Tsarist leaders Yeltsin and Putin.

sin_city

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

First off, a bit of manners would go well in this discussion. What I said is not rubbish and once again misinterpreted.

Secondly, I never said Putin was a dedicated communist. I am fully aware that the USSR communist party disbanded in 1991 and a small successor communist party emerged. But Putin's party (Yeltsin's before that) was a newly created entity that many high ranking ex communists joined. Incl. Yeltsin.

Putin was a KGB man and ideology wise communism is not in favour anymore in Russia. But the old USSR flag and/or the hammer and sickle is often used as a symbol of Russian nationalism and you can see it often in Ukraine.

Pure communism in Russia never really got going anyhow. Lenin discovered he needed some hybrid hence the new economic policy of the early 20s. Stalin found state capitalism mixed with communism and a personality cult worked. Khruschev and Brezhnev toned down Stalin's excesses but maintained a mix of pragmatic styles that worked ok until the later Brezhnev era when stagnation set in. Hence, Gorbachev more or less took all the communism out of the equation and had to turn the USSR into a market economy. Yelstin and Putin followed this lead.

China did more or less the same. Albeit still officially lead by the communists and officially a communist country. But is more a state capitalist country with a massive market economy, supplying the world with electronics.

Putin does not run any socialist agendas in Russia. It is and official is a capitalist country and has been since at least the late 1980s really. Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko and especially Gorbachev all pragmatically used capitalism and even despised Tsarist policies when it suited them thus eschewing in Russia's first officially capitalist non-Tsarist leaders Yeltsin and Putin.

Thanks for the clarification....Putin does not run any socialist programs as you said.

Off topic, communism cannot work without incentives such as a barrel of a gun towards your head....that's how it worked for Stalin and that's why it collapsed when this treatment stopped eventually.

Once again Putin has nothing to do with communism. He did a great job getting rid of the oligarchs who previously had won the prized assets from the red directors after Yeltsin requested their help in order to secure power in the 1996 election....I can also write pointless(to this thread but factual) information on Russia too like your last post....I hope you show some manners too...If you want to write like that then set up a blog.

Mod: Banned

Icepick

How much does shilling for Kremlin pay nowadays?
Trolling for Putin increased parallely with Russian military involvment in Ukraine.

comongethappy

Icepick wrote: »

How much does shilling for Kremlin pay nowadays?
Trolling for Putin increased parallely with Russian military involvment in Ukraine.

Spare a moment for the poor workers in the Guardian sifting through the tens of thousands of Kremlinbot posts.

The biggest UK domestic story wouldn't get half the comments the most mundane Russian story attracts.

(Which is probably Victoria Nuland's fault anyway).

I can't understand the near fanatical desire to apologise for tyranny.

realweirdo

comongethappy wrote: »

Spare a moment for the poor workers in the Guardian sifting through the tens of thousands of Kremlinbot posts.

The biggest UK domestic story wouldn't get half the comments the most mundane Russian story attracts.

(Which is probably Victoria Nuland's fault anyway).

I can't understand the near fanatical desire to apologise for tyranny.

Grass is always greener elsewhere I suppose and some people are never happy. Give some people dictatorship and they want democracy. Give them democracy and they become nostalgic for the good old days and "certainty" of dictatorship.

A lot of older people in Eastern Europe, Russian, Eastern Ukraine etc grew up in communist dictatorships. Its all they knew. Many had jobs for life etc. The end of the USSR brought a lot of change and a lot of poverty particularly for older generations. Its not hard to see why they might be nostalgic for the older certainties.

Ukraine is a big country and its probaly not hard to see how many eastern ukrainians identify more with Russia than Kiev which miles away. Some form of a federal state might be the solution but the Russians need to pull out first and and the federal states would not be allowed join Russia.

aloyisious

I only saw this a few minutes age, it's three days old (according to the time/date on it).

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibtimes.co.uk%2Fukraine-crisis-gorbachev-warns-terrible-slaughter-europe-1463292&ei=M9EFVPv4L4SI7AbU74GgCw&usg=AFQjCNEnm0bBwLRZ2iK4VMVWBwAq-F-TqQ

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

How much does shilling for Kremlin pay nowadays?
Trolling for Putin increased parallely with Russian military involvment in Ukraine.

Putin shilling bucks just arent what they used to be. there was a time when the cash strewn brown envelope was accompanied with a weekend away in a far off exotic place and three hot Russian chicks though times appear hard for Russians these days. Putin is tightening his belt. just not worth it anymore. someone is paying a price for something though I wonder who that might be.

The Chart Obama Does Not Want Merkel To See:

The weekend's headlines reeled from the collapse in global manufacturing PMIs and with them the last best hope for the world's economies to reach escape velocity all on their own. However, there was one nation that did not plunge... there was one country whose growth (based on the soft survey data) is at 10-month highs. Perhaps this is the chart that President 'we need moar sanctions and costs' Obama does not want Angela 'umm, wait a minute' Merkel to see...


Since sanctions began the plunge in Euro-Area PMIs has been commensurate with the rise in Russia's (oh and according to survey-data, US is as good as it has ever been)...

Seems pretty clear who is paying the price and suffering the costs of Western sanctions...

When does Europe draw its own red line around Obama's sanctions?

we need more sanctions on Russia.cause they are working. we need to kick Russia out of the international financial system. cause thats a really smart thing to do and will work too. more sanctions. anyone for an icecream.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-02/chart-obama-does-not-want-merkel-see

comongethappy

Amazing before/after picture of Luhansk airport.

They really did a number on it.

https://twitter.com/DJ_LSnoogie/status/506815000879857664

Apparently one or both of the runways had explosives detonated on it to deny it to Russian forces.

Gatling

Taken from twitter

Kremlin: Putin statement "If I want to, I can take Kiev in two weeks," taken out of context. 
For bluster, two weeks seems long.

Looks like putin isn't going to stop with eastern Ukraine at all

Morpheus

Finland is also getting edgy....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vladimir-putin-wants-regain-finland-says-close-adviser-1442466

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-02/chart-obama-does-not-want-merkel-see

not in the slightest surprised by this. Quote from Daily Mail on July 18th - "the day after"

'Fence sitting' EU leaders like Merkel under pressure to increase sanctions

Finland is also getting edgy

I can't believe that some people take this stuff seriously - just the usual lies ahead of the NATO summit this week.