Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

realweirdo

WakeUp wrote: »

well now youre making some errors here yourself comeon youre making assumptions on my behalf - like placing me in the Putin camp and thinking Im happy at what may become of Ukraine. though Ill give you this I think their politicians and leaders in Kiev are idiots. and I want nothing to do with them. that doesnt mean Im happy they are idiots. I just think they are.

Let me guess, you preferred the previous Russian puppet regime that was in charge?

realweirdo

Red Nissan wrote: »

:eek:

I believe they demoted or decommissioned a general in the last war for these exact words.

"We should go on to Moscow while we still have an army in Europe to do it rather than come back and have to do it all again!" Who said that and when.

Montgomery?

WakeUp

realweirdo wrote: »

Let me guess, you preferred the previous Russian puppet regime that was in charge?

but why would you even say that. explain to me how youve gotten that sentence from your head through your fingers to the screen. is it because I think the Kiev leadership arent the brightest? which is my initial thought as to why you might have said that. but how does that mean I preferred the other fella. Ukraine wasnt even on my radar much at all till this all kicked off. and only then did I get up to speed with all things.

Elmer Blooker

WakeUp wrote: »

but why would you even say that. explain to me how youve gotten that sentence from your head through your fingers to the screen. is it because I think the Kiev leadership arent the brightest? which is my initial thought as to why you might have said that. but how does that mean I preferred the other fella. Ukraine wasnt even on my radar much at all till this all kicked off. and only then did I get up to speed with all things.

Of course the Kiev leadership aren't the brightest - the US doesn't put logical, articulate, coherent and rational people into power when they install a "government" - why would they?

Manach

realweirdo wrote: »

Montgomery?

Surely Patton?

Gatling

So the Kiev government went from a bunch of evil nazis to just dumb people .

Anyone care to explain why there not bright

pablomakaveli

WakeUp wrote: »

well now youre making some errors here yourself comeon youre making assumptions on my behalf - like placing me in the Putin camp and thinking Im happy at what may become of Ukraine. though Ill give you this I think their politicians and leaders in Kiev are idiots. and I want nothing to do with them. that doesnt mean Im happy they are idiots. I just think they are.

I'd ask bigger questions of the leadership in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Had they gone the democratic route of trying to secede from the Ukraine rather than under the barrel of a gun they could have gotten what they wanted without bloodshed or all the chaos that has ensued from the current situation.

Look at Scotland as a recent example. All done through a democratic and legal process. If Scotland goes independent no-one will question the legitimacy and it will happen with no resultant bloodshed or destabilizing the region.

The Kiev government are only doing what any country in their position would do. They're not idiots for trying to do that.

BuilderPlumber

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'd ask bigger questions of the leadership in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Had they gone the democratic route of trying to secede from the Ukraine rather than under the barrel of a gun they could have gotten what they wanted without bloodshed or all the chaos that has ensued from the current situation.

Look at Scotland as a recent example. All done through a democratic and legal process. If Scotland goes independent no-one will question the legitimacy and it will happen with no resultant bloodshed or destabilizing the region.

The Kiev government are only doing what any country in their position would do. They're not idiots for trying to do that.

The problem with Ukraine is that the whole situation was turned into a classic cold war incident. A country divides in 2 and gets a pro-West and pro-Russian part. We saw it with Germany, Korea and Vietnam; we are seeing it with Ukraine; we could soon see it with Iran.

The West always seemed to favour the West or South of a country: West Ukraine, West Germany, West Iran (in the future), South Korea, South Vietnam. Why? Because these tended to be the most Westernised, less religious or nationalist parts of each. The East of Germany, Iran and Ukraine were/are nationalist or religious and poor; more wanting to follow a strong leader than question a system. Same with North Vietnam and Korea. The division of Sudan likewise shows us this trend. The division of Czechoslovakia into a rich West and poor East went very smoothly but is an exception.

With Ukraine (like the others), no one cares about the place itself. It is all about getting it for the West or Russia. Of course, the Russians calling the Kiev govt Nazis is pure propaganda. Nothing they have done equates in any way to the excesses of the Nazis. The demonisation of Putin as a new Hitler is the flipside of the same coin. Again, Putin has not come anyway close to Nazism.

I knew when Yanokovych was gone, there would be trouble. There was no one to fill the vacuum and the West and Russia scrambled for influence. The same will happen when the Shah of Iran, Khamenei, dies. Russia and the West will divide it into the Republic of Iran (a western democracy with Tehran as the capital) and the Islamic Republic of Iran (with Mashhad as the capital: basically the current system perhaps with modifications moved to the poorer and more receptive East). The same could spread to the ex Soviet central Asian states. The major problem with ALL these (Ukraine incl.) is their resources. The poorer East of a country like Ukraine or Iran is not going to let the rich Western half get all the resources however. Look at Sudan for example.

I do believe all these will break up along those lines. Ukraine will end up as a 2 state entity, perhaps with one part either part of Russia or at least a very close protectorate. The other part would be Ukraine and a future EU member.

I was in only Kiev and it was 2002 and for 2 days before the 2004 revolution. Basically I did Czech Republic Slovakia and Ukraine. Basically, rich country, followed by two poor countries. Kiev was richer than most of East Slovakia admittedly but it probably was similar to Bratislava: once out of Bratislava, Slovakia got poorer and poorer as one moved East. Ukraine would be the same and while I saw no underlying problems in the parts of Kiev I was in, I'm sure if I had longer there, I'd have discovered things. I was in Slovakia for 8 days and discovered it was extremely poor and underdeveloped compared with the Czech Republic (which was way richer, touristy, had better farmland and industrialised).

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

So the Kiev government went from a bunch of evil nazis to just dumb people .

Anyone care to explain why there not bright

I got pulled up here for using that word a while ago , I havent used it since and I wont be using it again. they havent gone from anything. lets call them fascists instead. or maybe they are ghosts and hippies to others. ghost hippies. who smoke bongs and spread the love. but really they are fascists. Kiev fascist brigades killing Russian people and their own people. under instructions from Kiev. a most dumb thing to do. threatening to cut off European energy supply from Russia. thats an incredibly dumb thing to do. putting it to parliament that you would like to join nato. thats a dumb thing to do. holding upcoming nato drills later this month on their territory. thats a dumb thing to do. spending money on a subway when the country is close to default and ruin. thats a dumb thing to do. letting your guard down and finding yourself recorded saying something like lets nuke Russia. thats a dumb thing to do. a member of parliament claiming that no matter what happens in the future with regard to Crimea its better that Ukraine regains its nuclear capability to make them "stronger". thats a really phuckin dumb thing to do. would you like me to go on?....

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'd ask bigger questions of the leadership in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Had they gone the democratic route of trying to secede from the Ukraine rather than under the barrel of a gun they could have gotten what they wanted without bloodshed or all the chaos that has ensued from the current situation.

Look at Scotland as a recent example. All done through a democratic and legal process. If Scotland goes independent no-one will question the legitimacy and it will happen with no resultant bloodshed or destabilizing the region.

The Kiev government are only doing what any country in their position would do. They're not idiots for trying to do that.

what exactly is Kiev trying to achieve?...

InTheTrees

Poor f'ing Ukrainians.

Hopefully they're stock pilling caches of weapons and explosives for the upcoming insurgency they're going to start once the Russians occupy the whole country.

Clandestine raids across the polish border, etc. Bombing Russian patrols in kiev.

Crazy sh*t.

I hope putin is happy. F'ing rat.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

Poor f'ing Ukrainians.

Hopefully they're stock pilling caches of weapons and explosives for the upcoming insurgency they're going to start once the Russians occupy the whole country.

Clandestine raids across the polish border, etc. Bombing Russian patrols in kiev.

Crazy sh*t.

I hope putin is happy. F'ing rat.

so whats going on? Ive checked some news feeds and I cant find anything whats happening?..have you got any links I can read?...

Morpheus

What are we arguing for?
Its f**king simple.
Russia should not be interfering in Ukraine.
They should not BE in Ukraine
they should not BE in the Ukrainian owned Crimean penninsula
they should not BE supporting illegal military groups on another sovereign nations soil
Why are we even arguing? what parts of this dont people get?

Elmer Blooker

Morpheus wrote: »

What are we arguing for?
Its f**king simple.
Russia should not be interfering in Ukraine.
They should not BE in Ukraine
they should not BE in the Ukrainian owned Crimean penninsula
they should not BE supporting illegal military groups on another sovereign nations soil
Why are we even arguing? what parts of this dont people get?

Go to the previous page on this thread, post #2116 and on that map you will see that Crimea is 77% ethnic Russian. That might be the reason why Crimea is now part of Russia.
I won't even comment on the "interfering in Ukraine" bit!

gandalf

Of course Putin and his generals don't give a damn about the soldiers they are sending in to do their dirty work as this extract from a Der Spiegel article shows.

Such a political course requires soldiers, among other things, to provide support for the separatists in eastern Ukraine. But they are to be kept secret from the international community -- and even the troops themselves often know little about their own mission. They are soldiers like Andrey Balobanov from Siberia.

The Russian recruit had just turned 18 when he got conscripted by the military last December. The day he left home, Balobanov welled up in tears. His father embraced him and they consoled each other with vodka. A mirror had shattered on the floor of the family's simple brick house in Panovo a short time earlier, portending a bad omen for the family.

"It was almost as if Andrey already had a premonition that something terrible would happen," his father Sergey says today. "He was afraid of the military."

During the first weeks, Andrey wrote upbeat letters to his family back home. But when his mother congratulated him on the occasion of his birthday in April, his voice seemed strangely distraught. "After that, I didn't hear his voice again," says Marina Balabonova. "Until July when he suddenly appeared as a prisoner of war in a Ukrainian video."

Up to that point, Andrey's parents had assumed that he had been completing his service in Garrison 65349 near the city of Samara, Russia, along the Volga River. A commanding officer also confirmed this when his parents sought contact with their son. They were informed that, unfortunately, their son was not available to speak. By then, though, he had likely already been sent to Belgorod, a Russian city located not far from the Ukrainian border. That, at least, is what he texted to a friend.

At the beginning of July, an investigator from the provincial capital of Omsk, located 300 kilometers away, paid a visit to the Balobanovs. He told the family that officials were searching for their son, who he claimed had left the troops without leave. By now, Marina and Sergey Balabonov were beside themselves with worry over their son. Andrey's father then filed a missing persons report with the police in Omsk.

On July 17, the family sent a letter to Vladimir Putin in which they wrote, "Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich, we are asking you to find our son Andrey." Marina, a saleswoman at "Sundown," one of the three shops in the 800-resident village, rummages through her son's room as she tries to find a copy of the letter and gathers photos and documents from the dresser.

"They have to get my Andrey back," she says. "He was just a normal soldier and Russia claims that it isn't even waging a war." She looks fatigued and says she has had rings around her eyes for weeks now. The knowledge that her son may be fighting in a war that doesn't even officially exist is making it difficult for her to sleep nights.

Mysterious Deaths

Last Thursday, the family received a letter from the public prosecutor stating that Andrey has been declared a deserter. The country to which he had pledged his allegiance and that dispatched him on a secret mission is now trying to label him as a traitor. "Our son may be sent to prison for up to five years," his father says. "But we're certain that he only wound up in Ukraine under his commander's orders."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/russia-expands-war-in-eastern-ukraine-amid-web-of-lies-a-989290.html

In the long term this whole crisis is going to make the lives of Russians more difficult as well. I am actually finding it hard to find the positives for them. Surely it would have made more sense to sort this out diplomatically rather than engineer an uprising and then invade.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Go to the previous page on this thread, post #2116 and on that map you will see that Crimea is 77% ethnic Russian. That might be the reason why Crimea is now part of Russia.
I won't even comment on the "interfering in Ukraine" bit!

But Crimea under International law was part of the Ukraine. The only way it could become a separate entity was a referendum voted across the whole of the Ukraine which never happened.

Morpheus is 100% correct expressing that Russia should not be in sovereign Ukrainian territory. Anyone disputing this is condoning the illegal activity of the Russia state.

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Go to the previous page on this thread, post #2116 and on that map you will see that Crimea is 77% ethnic Russian. That might be the reason why Crimea is now part of Russia.
I won't even comment on the "interfering in Ukraine" bit!

You will also note (or maybe you won't) that 100% of them are Ukrainian citizens.

Having some ethnic similarity with a land you conquer is a flimsy & illegal pretext.

According to their last census, its 60% ethnically Russian.
But it wouldnt matter if it was 100% ethnic Russian, conquering neighbouring nations is wrong.

comongethappy

Peace in our time?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11071852/Ukraine-ceasefire-live.html

Or another play?

NATO are genuinely desperate for a reason to continue doing nothing.
Could this be a brief reprieve to allow the NATO summit to pass without firm action being decided?

Angela Merkel will breath a sigh of relief that she won't have to spend actual money on germany's dilapidated military.

If the self appointed rebel leaders disobey a ceasefire instruction from the Kremlin, its all for nothing..... so time will tell.

aloyisious

Just on RTE 1 news : President Poroshenke has reportedly made a cease-fire agreement with President Putin by was of a telephone conference.

gandalf

Personally I wouldn't trust Putin at all. The EU and US should proceed with sanction extensions to show Vlad that they mean business. Anything less than that is appeasement.

comongethappy

aloyisious wrote: »

Just on RTE 1 news : President Poroshenke has reportedly made a cease-fire agreement with President Putin by was of a telephone conference.

And in now typical fashion, the Kremlin are denying it.

Its like they can't help themselves.

Vladi cound ring every leader in the world & tell each he just had steak for dinner only for Kremlin spokesperson deny he ever so much as ate meat!

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't trust Putin at all. The EU and US should proceed with sanction extensions to show Vlad that they mean business. Anything less than that is appeasement.

But they are soooo desperate to appease though.

This could be perfect for them.
Talk tough ... Do nothing while Putin achieves 100% of his aims at the loss of a few hundred troops.

Elmer Blooker

Ceasefire: I expect the Russians to "break" this ceasefire by committing an "atrocity" right in the middle of the NATO summit followed by an outburst of hysterical Russian xenophobia - in other words, I am not optimistic about this ceasefire but I would love to be proved 100% wrong.

You will also note (or maybe you won't) that 100% of them are Ukrainian citizens

If you think the decision by dictator Khrushchev to turn Crimeans from Russians to Ukrainians without consulting them is democratic then that's your opinion

Morpheus

So if we took every ethnically polish person in ireland who is also an Irish Citizen and put them into say leitrim (which is sparsely populated anyway) and they were now the majority, that if Poland invaded Leitrim (crazy i know) that you would agree sure its only right because Leitrim is 77% ethnically Polish? No. Russia is wrong, was wrong and will continue to BE wrong until it leaves Ukrainian soil and hands back the Crimea to its rightful owners.

stevedublin

Morpheus wrote: »

So if we took every ethnically polish person in ireland who is also an Irish Citizen and put them into say leitrim (which is sparsely populated anyway) and they were now the majority, that if Poland invaded Leitrim (crazy i know) that you would agree sure its only right because Leitrim is 77% ethnically Polish? No. Russia is wrong, was wrong and will continue to BE wrong until it leaves Ukrainian soil and hands back the Crimea to its rightful owners.

Not the same thing as what happened in Crimea.
A more valid comparison was if Kruschev gave Leitrim to Poland and 50 years later Ireland annexed Leitrim claiming it is part of Ireland.

aloyisious

Funnily enough, no repeat of that "breaking news" item on the 11am news.

stevedublin

aloyisious wrote: »

Funnily enough, no repeat of that "breaking news" item on the 11am news.

the breaking news broke

gandalf

This ceasefire talk looks like an attempt to "muddy the water" before the NATO summit in Wales and the EU meeting about sanctions later this week. Anything to give the weaker willed nations a way out. Hopefully they all keep their resolve and hammer home severe sanctions against Russia.

comongethappy

aloyisious wrote: »

Funnily enough, no repeat of that "breaking news" item on the 11am news.

It must have been a late night & Porshenko was low on cocoa or something.

They are back peddling on the ceasefire declared last night.

The Ukrainian president may have jumped the gun.

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

It must have been a late night & Porshenko was low on cocoa or something.

They are back peddling on the ceasefire declared last night.

The Ukrainian president may have jumped the gun.

He is probably grasping at straws given the slaughter of Ukrainian forces. Apparently over a 100 were killed in a convoy that was supposed to have been given a safe corridor as agreed with the Russians Rebels.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/nato-to-step-up-actions-after-slaughter-of-ukrainians-30557424.html

Elmer Blooker

I've just heard on BBC 24 that good ol' Yats has just called Russia "a terrorist state" Yats obviously got a phone call from Washington this morning and received his instructions - "ceasefires are bad for business and we haven't finished off the EU yet"