Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

steveblack

Gatling wrote: »

So the Kiev government went from a bunch of evil nazis to just dumb people .

Anyone care to explain why there not bright

Would you not class all Nazis as idiots?

steveblack

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The poorer East of a country like Ukraine or Iran is not going to let the rich Western half get all the resources however.

Small problem with your theory, the east ukraine is where the wealth is.
That is where the main industrial powerhouse is located, among other things.

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

But Crimea under International law was part of the Ukraine. The only way it could become a separate entity was a referendum voted across the whole of the Ukraine which never happened.

The entire UK is not getting a vote on Scotlands independence. Only Scotland votes, why should the crimea be different?

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

Apparently over a 100 were killed in a convoy that was supposed to have been given a safe corridor as agreed with the Russians Rebels.

You left out a small bit, the rebels/russian said they could leave the area safely if they left their weapons behind. They decide to retreat will there weapons and vehicles , they broke the terms.

Previous time they fled unarmed and where let go unharmed by the rebels.

steveblack

The Ukraine government attempts at joining NATO are going no where, smoke and mirrors.
NATO wont accept a new member who has a territorial dispute.
Will Kiev give up the claim on the Crimean peninsula and abandon those citizens to a russian occupation, just so they can gain membership of NATO?

There must be no war in the Ukraine, as per the rules the IMF do not lend to countries who are at war, IMF is lending money to the Ukraine therefore there must be no war there?

Do NATO and IMF make up the rules as they go along. Will they rip up the rule book and get involved even more in the Ukraine?

comongethappy

Apparently the EU are going to ask for Russia to be stripped of the 2018 world cup.

Best of luck with that.
Sepp Blatter & his chronies don't do refunds.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

The entire UK is not getting a vote on Scotlands independence. Only Scotland votes, why should the crimea be different?

Because it's the Ukrainian constitution. I wasn't aware the UK one extended to all countries :rolleyes:

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

You left out a small bit, the rebels/russian said they could leave the area safely if they left their weapons behind. They decide to retreat will there weapons and vehicles , they broke the terms.

Previous time they fled unarmed and where let go unharmed by the rebels.

So the slaughter that occurred is ok then from your perspective?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-volunteer-soldiers-face-unexpected-foe-1409675515

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

So the slaughter that occurred is ok then from your perspective?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-volunteer-soldiers-face-unexpected-foe-1409675515

story behind a pay wall. Dont know what is written .

If you break the terms , what can you expect?

stevedublin

steveblack wrote: »

The entire UK is not getting a vote on Scotlands independence. Only Scotland votes, why should the crimea be different?

because it doesn't suit that posters agenda.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

story behind a pay wall. Dont know what is written .

If you break the terms , what can you expect?

Strange when I did a search on Google for "ukraine ilovaisk" in the last 24 hours it came up and was viewable. Quoted below.

DNIPROPETROVSK, Ukraine—Artyom Kravchenko was a soldier for Ukraine. He bought a flak jacket and a helmet with his own savings, and in July joined a volunteer militia to fight a Russia-backed rebellion in the country's east.

Like many other young Ukrainian men moved by patriotism, he got a baptism by fire.

After a week of training, Mr. Kravchenko, 24 years old, was sent with a lightly armed police unit to the town of Ilovaisk, near the Russian border, where instead of fighting Russia-backed rebels his unit bore the brunt of an attack from the Russian army.

Many of his comrades were killed in an ambush as they tried to withdraw last week, he said. Mr. Kravchenko only survived after a two-day odyssey in which he received three bullet wounds, hid among the corpses of his friends and drank his own urine to stay alive, he said.

The travails of Mr. Kravchenko and other young men present a moral quandary to the West. Having encouraged Ukraine to sign an association agreement with Europe that angered Russia, it is now seeing young Ukrainian men like him die in large numbers.
Related

Ukraine's Dilemma: Talk With Rebels or Fight With Russia
European Union Considers Modest Increase in Sanctions on Russia

Europe has responded with moral outrage and sanctions that have so far proved ineffective against Russia, which denies that it is funneling arms or troops across the border. The West has refused pleas from Kiev for heavier weaponry to repel Russian armor.

Mr. Kravchenko and thousands like him who are long on enthusiasm and short on weapons are being quickly overrun by better-armed Russian troops and Russian-armed militias. Kiev officials say hundreds have died since the push of Russian military units into the country last week.

After being captured by Russian troops and kept in a pit, Mr. Kravchenko was handed back over to the Ukrainians, who flew him in a helicopter to the eastern city of Dnipropetrovsk to recover in a military hospital. Doctors say dozens of soldiers have been arriving at the airport each day, met by ambulances lined up on the tarmac to take them to various hospitals.

Mr. Kravchenko said he joined the militia because he wanted Ukraine to be part of Europe. "I was an idealist and I wanted to help," he said from a stretcher on the way to the hospital. "But I don't think we can do anything now."

His training consisted of calisthenics and one day of shooting a Kalashnikov, he said. He spent a week on guard duty in a zone to the rear of fighting and then joined his unit, the Dnipro Battalion, in Ilovaisk for his first taste of combat.

The unit, funded by private donations, was no match for the artillery and tank fire of the Russian military. Last week, Mr. Kravchenko said, commanders told everyone that the Russians had agreed that if they retreated peacefully, they would be allowed safe passage back to Ukrainian-controlled territory.

Mr. Kravchenko said he boarded a minivan that joined a column of at least 60 other Ukrainian vehicles, which left Ilovaisk early in the morning. Ukraine's poorly funded armed forces often rely on buses and minivans to ferry many of their troops. After the convoy had been on the road about an hour, Russians and Russia-backed militia opened fire on it, first with mortars, then with machine guns, he said.

Mr. Kravchenko said the minivan broke down after it was riddled with bullets, and he jumped aboard a municipal bus carrying troops. Within minutes it was raked by machine gun fire that mowed down the passengers, killing the man sitting next to him and wounding Mr. Kravchenko in the shoulder, he said.

He piled out of the bus with a handful of survivors and jumped aboard a pickup truck carrying six other men, which continued before it, too, was hit by machine gun fire and then blew up when it was hit by a grenade. Most of the others died in the pickup, he said, or were killed when they took cover beneath it and it exploded, he said.

Mr. Kravchenko crawled into a ditch and played dead among the corpses for 10 hours, then crawled at night to a forest. He was captured when he wandered onto a farm and drank from a water trough for pigs. Russian troops gave him some first aid and then held him with other wounded Ukrainians in a pit, he said. They were handed over to the Ukrainian armyin a prisoner exchange.

In a war that has been fought mostly through long-distance artillery exchanges, the wounded arriving in Dnipropetrovsk are among the few Ukrainian soldiers who have seen Russian soldiers in Ukraine face-to-face.

Russia's state-controlled media has demonized the Ukrainian government as riddled with neo-Nazis. Survivors of the ambush said the Russian soldiers were mainly paratroopers who were kind to prisoners, but believed reports on Russian television that Ukraine had set up concentration camps for ethnic Russians.

"They were young guys, well-armed, backed up by lots of equipment," said Vadim Kuprikov, 31, who was captured after the armored personnel carrier he was riding on blew up. "They said they came here to defend the Ukrainian people against fascists."

Other survivors have been trickling into Ukrainian-controlled territories in small groups. Commanders of the volunteer units in Ilovaisk say they have no idea how many of the 600 who left the city were killed in the ambush. Boris Filatov, deputy head of the regional administration of Dnipropetrovsk, said as many as 100 died on the road or near it as they tried to flee.

The official estimates on casualties coming from Kiev are far too low, said Mr. Filatov, whose administration helps support the volunteer units.

"The fact is, nobody knows," he said. "It's hard to know what is happening out there."

So the slaughter of those troops was justified from your perspective then?

Elmer Blooker

Morpheus wrote: »

Russia is wrong, was wrong and will continue to BE wrong until it leaves Ukrainian soil and hands back the Crimea to its rightful owners.

Crimea became part of The Russian Empire of Catherine the Great in 1783, so that means it was part of Russia for 171 years before Khrushchev made his mysterious decision.

Rawhide in the Ukraine

Mod: youtube video removed, posting videos without a summary of their comtent is against the charter.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Crimea became part of The Russian Empire of Catherine the Great in 1783, so that means it was part of Russia for 171 years before Khrushchev made his mysterious decision.

So that justifies Russia carving off a section of a sovereign country from your perspective then?

sparksfly

gandalf wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't trust Putin at all. The EU and US should proceed with sanction extensions to show Vlad that they mean business. Anything less than that is appeasement.

The last thing the US wants is a ceasefire.

Firstly the MH17 mess has failed to demonise Putin.

To go to the trouble of installing a puppet government to destabilise the area, provoke Russia and stir up a new cold war and hopefully sell weapons - and then end up with an agreement?

No way man.

They will have to forget about sanctions and try harder to re-instil anti Russian fear in the EU and the Ukraine. They have loads of expertise in this area, they just need to dig deeper into their dirty tricks basket.

comongethappy

sparksfly wrote: »

To go to the trouble of installing a puppet government to destabilise the area, .

All 100% the real truth .
Though you have to give them some credit.
It was quite an achievement having millions of CIA staff cast ballots in polling booths in Ukraine as well as attacking polling stations & staff to prevent those in the east from voting.

Not to mention how impressively the evil US dressed thousands of its soldiers in Russian military garb and crossed them into Ukraine from the Russian side!

And the pièce de résistance, having Victoria Nuland impersonate Putin on the phone, threatening to take Kiev in a fortnight!

The US evil knows no limits!

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't trust Putin at all. The EU and US should proceed with sanction extensions to show Vlad that they mean business. Anything less than that is appeasement.

Where did this notion that sanctions will hurt Russia and not the EU come from?
Is it a western "they couldn't survive without us" arrogant superiority complex?
In an all out economic sanctions war the EU would inevitably fall apart and Russia would survive like it always has. In the last century they have survived revolution, civil war, famines, invasion, the political upheavals after the break up of the Soviet Union. If the worst comes to the worst EU citizens would whinge, moan and groan expecting to be spoon fed by Brussels, the Russians will put on a brave face and put up with it!
edit: I should mention that it won't be the Russians who have to chop up their furniture to keep warm if the yanks get their way!

Fig of Fallacy

Black Swan wrote: »

MOD REMINDER:
Politics is a discussion forum. It is not a news dump or vid-only post forum. You must discuss any links or vids that you post in terms of the thread topic and how they contribute to our discussion. Please read charter before posting again.

Apologies. I linked the video containing the two rebel commanders giving a press conference. They were giving answers to questions and were clearing up alot of issues. In point form.

(*) Most, if not all, the hardware they have is stuff that was taken from Kiev forces. Not stuff given from Russia.

(*) There are many Russian volunteers fighting by their side, but absolutely no Russian army units or battalions. If there was, one of the commanders says, the rebels would be assaulting kiev and not the other way as Kiev forces vs Russian forces would be no match.

(*) Volunteers have joined from other countries too, particularly some people from the french navy.

(*) No more chance of federalism, only complete independence will do at this stage as Kiev has behaved so badly and has killed so many people.

(*) POW parade was immoral, but was intended to send a message to Kiev in order to prevent more armies going the same way.

(*) Rebels will die defending their lands and families and are now successfully defeating Kiev forces en mass.

Thats the jist of it i suppose.

steveblack

But,But,But,But the referendum in Crimea was against the Ukrainian constitution.
The violent overthrow of the legally elected President of Ukraine thats allowed?

But,But,But,But the rebels attacked the retreating Ukrainian soldiers.
The deal was leave all weapons and materials behind, then you can leave peacefully, they retreated fully armed, broke the terms and where attacked. Previous troop withdraws, the terms where honoured by both sides and no conflict broke out.
Dnipro Battalion involved are led by Yuriy Bereza, right sector. No Innocents involved in that organisation. The rebels patched up the injured and carried out a prisoner exchange.
He received better treatment than the pregnant woman murdered by right sector in Odessa.

But,But,But,But the Russians shot MH17 out of the sky.
Russia is the only one pressing for the release of air traffic control communications with the plane and black box data.
Ukraine, Belgium, The Netherlands and Australia signed a agreement that the cause of the MH17 crash will remain “classified”.

But,But,But,But the sanctions will bring Russia to it knees. We need more of them.
European countries with large agricultural deals with Russia are loosing billions. They are not happy and are starting to break ranks.
Argentina told the banks to get stuffed and defaulted, why does this matter you ask? Russian will now buy as much agricultural product they can get from Argentina, both countries come out winners with only the west losing.
European airlines will loose €1 Billion a month when the Russian airspace will be closed to them.
Next up for Russia is industry sanctions, watch the Germans freak out when all car imports are banned.
The sanctions will be over against Russia before the Russians even threaten to turn off the oil and gas.

This is would be comical if it was not so tragic.
The lies, omissions, distortions of facts and demonising of Putin and Russia, all because the US instigated a violent regime change in Ukraine and it's not going to plan.
Ukraine looks more and more like Iraq and Libya every day. Im sure there are some here who would argue are two successes for the west

My advice, lay of the Tom Clancy books and Hollywood war movies for a few weeks.

Elmer Blooker

brilliant post steveblack, an excellent analysis in my opinion.

This is would be comical if it was not so tragic.

There is nothing tragic about this as far as the US of A is concerned, their plan is going beautifully - us Europeans mean nothing to them, I am beginning to believe now that militarists and not politicians are now running Europe.

carpejugulum

gandalf wrote: »

In the long term this whole crisis is going to make the lives of Russians more difficult as well. I am actually finding it hard to find the positives for them. Surely it would have made more sense to sort this out diplomatically rather than engineer an uprising and then invade.

Putin believed his own propaganda. He didn't expect Ukraine to fight for Donbass as hard as they do and expected locals will join the fight in large numbers, which didn't happen at all.
He also probably didn't expect hard sanctions from the West.

In other words, he got everything wrong.

Meanwhile, Crimea's economy is in tatters:
Now Joined to Russia, Crimea’s Economy Is Sliding Downhill

I am sure Russian taxpayers are glad to help.

Manach

Not naturally supportive of Obama's policies,but he is both clear and unambiguous on defending their fellow Nato members in the Baltic.
Washington Post:

This at least is a welcome return to the foundational base of the alliance.

carpejugulum

steveblack wrote: »

The entire UK is not getting a vote on Scotlands independence. Only Scotland votes, why should the crimea be different?

Are you actually serious?

Crimea is not a country.
Ukraine is not ruled by UK (or Russian) laws.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

But,But,But,But the referendum in Crimea was against the Ukrainian constitution.
The violent overthrow of the legally elected President of Ukraine thats allowed?

If they didn't have an election fairly soon after he was deposed you would have a really strong argument. The fact is they did and remember from my perspective and that of a lot of others his loyal supporters starting the shooting in Kiev.

But,But,But,But the rebels attacked the retreating Ukrainian soldiers.
The deal was leave all weapons and materials behind, then you can leave peacefully, they retreated fully armed, broke the terms and where attacked. Previous troop withdraws, the terms where honoured by both sides and no conflict broke out.
Dnipro Battalion involved are led by Yuriy Bereza, right sector. No Innocents involved in that organisation. The rebels patched up the injured and carried out a prisoner exchange.

There were a lot more than his battalion involved. Does the personalities involved justify slaughter.

He received better treatment than the pregnant woman murdered by right sector in Odessa.

Link please, and please try and use a proper source.

But,But,But,But the Russians shot MH17 out of the sky.
Russia is the only one pressing for the release of air traffic control communications with the plane and black box data.

Is it? Where are they doing that and can you prove other governments aren't.

Ukraine, Belgium, The Netherlands and Australia signed a agreement that the cause of the MH17 crash will remain “classified”.

Again sources for this please or is it straight out of the pages of tinfoil weekly.

But,But,But,But the sanctions will bring Russia to it knees. We need more of them.
European countries with large agricultural deals with Russia are loosing billions. They are not happy and are starting to break ranks.
Argentina told the banks to get stuffed and defaulted, why does this matter you ask? Russian will now buy as much agricultural product they can get from Argentina, both countries come out winners with only the west losing.

People never said that it won't cause Europe or the US no pain. But you have to stand down blatant aggression like that coming from Putins Russia.

Also Russia relies on the International market for a lot more than Agricultural products, it economy is on its knees and a prolonged period of sanctions will hurt it an awful lot more than it will hurt us. We'll see how patriotic Putins "friends" are when they see themselves loosing money and prestige.

European airlines will loose €1 Billion a month when the Russian airspace will be closed to them.
Next up for Russia is industry sanctions, watch the Germans freak out when all car imports are banned.
The sanctions will be over against Russia before the Russians even threaten to turn off the oil and gas.

We'll see.

This is would be comical if it was not so tragic.
The lies, omissions, distortions of facts and demonising of Putin and Russia, all because the US instigated a violent regime change in Ukraine and it's not going to plan.

I am sure there is distortion from all sides but the Russias have distorted things so much they are in another dimension at this stage. I actually find it surprising that some people on here have such a rabid hatred of all things Western that they will turn a blind eye to the obvious aggression and lies coming from Vlads Moscow collective.

Ukraine looks more and more like Iraq and Libya every day. Im sure there are some here who would argue are two successes for the west

Both those countries are messes. However they are different topics and countries, trying to link them is a extremely clumsy attempt at deflection. Deflecting from the reality that Russia are violating the sovereignty of another European country and are not halting their illegal actions.

My advice, lay of the Tom Clancy books and Hollywood war movies for a few weeks.

Actually I have never read a Tom Clancy novel. I am about to read Life and Fate by Vasily Grossman because I really enjoyed Anthony Beevors book "A Writer at War - Vasily Grossman with the Red Army 1941-45". I actually prefer Russian and Korean War films to Hollywood war movies although I do have a soft spot for Band of Brothers.

Elmer Blooker

carpejugulum wrote: »

Are you actually serious?

Crimea is not a country.
Ukraine is not ruled by UK (or Russian) laws.

Crimea is part of Russia again as it was from 1783 to 1954 - get over it.
Mr Putin should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for preventing Crimea falling into the hands of the NATO murder machine!

comongethappy

In a surprising move France has suspended the first 2 deliveries of their much awaited Mistral class amphibious assault carriers.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/03/france-halts-delivery-warship-russia

Surprising because France went to the trouble of guaranteeing delivery back in May.

Russia agreed to pay way above cost for these & the rights to make 2 more themselves (whose status is unknown).

France I don't doubt were leaned upon strongly for this.

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Crimea is part of Russia again as it was from 1783 to 1954 - get over it.
Mr Putin should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for preventing Crimea falling into the hands of the NATO murder machine!

You should get a medal for tolerating living in this western hellhole.

How you manfully resist moving to Vladi's utopia will remain a mystery..... But well done for sticking around!

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Crimea is part of Russia again as it was from 1783 to 1954 - get over it.
Mr Putin should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for preventing Crimea falling into the hands of the NATO murder machine!

It was part of the Crimean Khanate from 1449-1783 and the Golden Horde before that. Should it be returned to the Tartars who were there before the Russians then, since we're going off who used to own what?

Elmer Blooker

Both those countries are messes. However they are different topics and countries, trying to link them is a extremely clumsy attempt at deflection

Iraq and Libya have oil, Ukraine is a hub for Russian gas to Europe. Can you not see the connection? $$$$$$$$$$
They certainly are not "different topics"

It was part of the Crimean Khanate from 1449-1783 and the Golden Horde before that. Should it be returned to the Tartars who were there before the Russians then, since we're going off who used to own what?

ok ok you win! lets hand Ireland back to the Normans or the Vikings!

steveblack

As always a request for links when posters don’t like what they read, if only there was a way to search the internet, prove that they never happened, it would make it so much easier to refute these points! (I reckon big money is to be made by the first person to figure out a way to search the internet.)

As for reputable sources, will the Wall Street Journal, The Times, Sky News and Fox News suffice?
All owned by the completely impartial Rupert Murdoch who operates without a agenda, he just wants the truth to come out with no spin.

Then we have the American giants of media, Time Warner, CBS, Disney Media, Comcast and others, yet again they have no agenda, they just want to report the truth.

Nearer to home we have the Tax payer/Licence Fee funded BBC, another impartial source of news without interference.

Naturally the concentration of media ownership into fewer organization’s in the west is a good thing, they will be able to better stay focused and tell us citizens the truth.
Those crazy French created www.france24.com/en/
and the same with crazy Russians creating http://rt.com/
also the Irianians with www.presstv.com/
the Chinese http://english.cntv.cn/
and the arabs http://www.aljazeera.com/ and a load of other countries have there english version news channel.
What fools they all are wasting millions each year to run a satellite news channel to try and put there version of world events out there for the english speaking world to see.
The media in the west tells nothing but the truth without any agenda or political interference, foolish them for believing otherwise.