Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

ok ok you win! lets hand Ireland back to the Normans or the Vikings!

You're the one making the ridiculous point of Crimea having to go back to Russia because it used to be part of Russia 60 years ago. I'm only applying that ridiculous logic you've been using to decide who should have Crimea.

Gatling

Does anyone know how to say your an idiot in Russian or is it universally understood,

I wonder what's the terms of kievs surrender Putin is looking for

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

You should get a medal for tolerating living in this western hellhole.

How you manfully resist moving to Vladi's utopia will remain a mystery..... But well done for sticking around!

I never said the west is a hellhole, I just wonder why NATO which is meant to represent the freedom and democracy of the morally superior west can inflict such murder, death and destruction on helpless innocent civilians.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

The media in the west tells nothing but the truth without any agenda or political interference, foolish me for believing otherwise.

Maybe you should have spent your time posting what ever sources you have as requested instead of posting your rant.

I am perfectly aware of all those sources and I have used some of them in my posts.

steveblack

here is one , took but seconds to find

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11065413/Russia-demands-publication-of-recordings-from-downed-flight-MH17.html


Only Russia talking about MH17

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

here is one , took but seconds to find

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11065413/Russia-demands-publication-of-recordings-from-downed-flight-MH17.html


Only Russia talking about MH17

Excellent well done. Now care to post the sources that the other countries you listed were hell-bent on withholding the report please.

Also that article quoted the Russians saying the following.

Mr Antonov said Russia had established that a Ukrainian Su-25 military aircraft was in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner.

"Where is the transcript of the recordings of conversations between the pilot of this plane and his command? How did a military aircraft come to be alongside a civilian one?

That has already been debunked here quite extensively. The plane in question can't fly beside an airliner that was flying 15,000 feet above its operating ceiling.

steveblack

Im probably a bit older than most posters here, i remember the cold war , the evil communists are coming to kill us all. We where fed nothing but anti soviet block propaganda. The eastern europeans where our enemy and they wanted to do us harm.
Fast forward a few years, the iron curtain fell, the EU expanded and we finally got to meet and become friends with the so called enemy.
Guess what? They where fed the same type of Bullsxxt propaganda about us in the west, we where coming to harm them.
If you have any eastern european friends who can remember the cold war ask them. They will tell you the same, some of them might even be married to the cold wars enemy today.
If you just believe the official news sources, why do you trust them? They have lied in the past, who is to say not now.

Today the USA admits the Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened, 40 years ago they lied to start a war where 58k US soldiers and anywhere between 1 and 4 million total deaths occurred.

Posters here believe everything anti Russian they see. Think about it.

gandalf

So you aren't backing up what you are saying then (BTW its in the forum charter that you back up anything you claim is a fact with sources when challenged).

From this source it sounds like they aren't releasing the details because they are following due process. The preliminary report is due this week or next week.

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/08/15/mh17-preliminary-report-on-black-box-to-be-known-September/

I also find it interesting that you think its ok for a player accused of being an accessory to mass murder can dictate the timescale and how an investigation can be carried out.

Gatling

So there are no russian soldiers ,tanks ,Apc's in Ukraine enjoying a summer holiday ,
Maybe these holiday makers choose to avoid there usual hotspot of Crimea due to too many russians hogging all the best hotels and beaches ,
So instead choose to go to Eastern ukraine and came across a fake air disaster ,

carpejugulum

Over 2,000 dead Russian soldiers already

It again shows that one of the largest victims of a totalitarian regime are people they rule.

gandalf

Gatling wrote: »

So there are no russian soldiers ,tanks ,Apc's in Ukraine enjoying a summer holiday ,

I never heard of an army allowing its soldiers to become mercenaries whilst on leave.

Maybe these holiday makers choose to avoid there usual hotspot of Crimea due to too many russians hogging all the best hotels and beaches ,

Apparently they are empty. The Crimeans are now starting to pay the price for Putins landgrab.

So instead choose to go to Eastern ukraine and came across a fake air disaster ,

The air disaster is real unfortunately. The fake is the spin that the Kremlin and its puppets are perpetrating.

steveblack

The Su-25 has a maximum altitude, of 7,000m for a pilot in the plane without an oxygen mask.
The problem is that it's cockpit is not pressurized, but the aircraft has powerful engines which can bring the aircraft well beyond the flight level of MH17 at 10,000m.
MH17 under air traffic control orders dropped from 11,000m to 10,000m,

“Mr Antonov said Russia had established that a Ukrainian Su-25 military aircraft was in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner.”

Vicinity is the world to focus on, 3,000m is a close call for planes.
Put a oxygen mask on the pilot and 10,000m is not a problem, could have been even closer.

But what if the Su-25 carried a missile? The Su-25 can carry the R-60 air-to-air missile which can fly at over 3'000km per hour. Even if the Su-25 stopped at 7,000m the R-60 missile would catch MH17 in seconds.

Dig a little and the official version of events don’t hold much water.

Now answer me this, why is Russia the only one talking about MH17?

carpejugulum

So how much does Kremlin pay nowadays?

steveblack

carpejugulum wrote: »

Over 2,000 dead Russian soldiers already

It again shows that one of the largest victims of a totalitarian regime are people they rule.

So for any anti Russian posts you can quote any source and it is valid?

Any source that some how differs from the western line of events is suspect?

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a broadcaster funded by the U.S. government. Totally impartial no doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

The Su-25 has a maximum altitude, of 7,000m for a pilot in the plane without an oxygen mask.
The problem is that it's cockpit is not pressurized, but the aircraft has powerful engines which can bring the aircraft well beyond the flight level of MH17 at 10,000m.
MH17 under air traffic control orders dropped from 11,000m to 10,000m,

“Mr Antonov said Russia had established that a Ukrainian Su-25 military aircraft was in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner.”

Vicinity is the world to focus on, 3,000m is a close call for planes.
Put a oxygen mask on the pilot and 10,000m is not a problem, could have been even closer.

But what if the Su-25 carried a missile? The Su-25 can carry the R-60 air-to-air missile which can fly at over 3'000km per hour. Even if the Su-25 stopped at 7,000m the R-60 missile would catch MH17 in seconds.

Dig a little and the official version of events don’t hold much water.

Now answer me this, why is Russia the only one talking about MH17?

Again have you sources for the higher ceiling specifications that you are quoting. Anything I have read is a maximum ceiling of 7000 metres, 5000 metres when it is fully armed.

steveblack

carpejugulum wrote: »

So how much does Kremlin pay nowadays?

Not as much as the pentagon, any jobs going?

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

Again have you sources for the higher ceiling specifications that you are quoting. Anything I have read is a maximum ceiling of 7000 metres, 5000 metres when it is fully armed.

Go to the source my friend.
Who said it was fully armed?

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

Go to the source my friend.
Who said it was fully armed?

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

All that says is service ceiling 7km, 7000 metres as I have already stated. Show me where it says what you have said.

Also if it wasn't armed then it couldn't shoot :rolleyes:

Gatling

steveblack wrote: »

Go to the source my friend.
Who said it was fully armed?

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

So how come only russia detected this aircraft ,

No even civilian aircraft enthusiasts who track radars world wide seen this mysterious Ukrainian aircraft ,

Even more stange was the idea this Ukrainian aircraft was some how mistaken into thinking that a Malaysia airlines aircraft was suddenly vladamir putins personal aircraft which had apparently taken off and flown towards Ukrainian airspace almost for that one actually.

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

All that says is service ceiling 7km, 7000 metres as I have already stated. Show me where it says what you have said.

Also if it wasn't armed then it could shoot :rolleyes:

The key words are SERVICE Ceiling.
Not max ceiling.
With a source of oxygen for the pilot much higher.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

The key words are SERVICE Ceiling.
Not max ceiling.
With a source of oxygen for the pilot much higher.

But it doesn't mention the stats that you have anywhere on that page. Again where did you get them from.

BTW the max ceiling is stated as being 7km without external ordnance and stores. If it was carrying an air to air missile system it wouldn't even be operating at 7km's.

The plane was not capable of carrying out the attack as stated by Moscow. Again can you show me a source that verifies what you are saying?

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

So you aren't backing up what you are saying then (BTW its in the forum charter that you back up anything you claim is a fact with sources when challenged).

I dont want to put a link here to a photo of a dead pregnant woman,probably get a ban and rightly so.
It absolutely heart breaking, Google it and you shall find very easy.
Be warned It will haunt you.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

I dont want to put a link here to a photo of a dead pregnant woman,probably get a ban and rightly so.
It absolutely heart breaking, Google it and you shall find very easy.
Be warned It will haunt you.

Fine as I thought you can't back up what you saying. So I think we can say the Su-25 theory is totally debunked now.

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

But it doesn't mention that stats that you have anywhere on that page. Again where did you get them from.

BTW the max ceiling is stated as being 7km without external ordnance and stores. If it was carrying an air to air missile system it wouldn't even be operating at 7km's.

The plane was not capable of carrying out the attack as stated by Moscow. Again can you show me a source that verifies what you are saying?

Yet again omissions and distortions of facts, the Su25 specs are for a fully fueled/armed plane.
Only half fill the fuel tank and armed with one missile and 7,000 is possible, give the pilot a source of oxygen even greater altitude.
As i said the R-60 missile flies at over 3,000kph, the Su25 only has to get in the "VICINITY" of MH17, exactly as the Russians said it was.

gandalf

steveblack wrote: »

Yet again omissions and distortions of facts, the Su25 specs are for a fully fueled/armed plane.
Only half fill the fuel tank and armed with one missile and 7,000 is possible, give the pilot a source of oxygen even greater altitude.
As i said the R-60 missile flies at over 3,000kph, the Su25 only has to get in the "VICINITY" of MH17, exactly as the Russians said it was.

Provide the proof of these statements please. You posted the link to the Sukhoi website as proof and it says absolutely nothing about these claims. How do you know this. please tell us. I awaiting your next "informative" post with baited breath.

pablomakaveli

steveblack wrote: »

Yet again omissions and distortions of facts, the Su25 specs are for a fully fueled/armed plane.
Only half fill the fuel tank and armed with one missile and 7,000 is possible, give the pilot a source of oxygen even greater altitude.
As i said the R-60 missile flies at over 3,000kph, the Su25 only has to get in the "VICINITY" of MH17, exactly as the Russians said it was.

Your scraping the barrel now. That's a very specific setup you've listed there. First of all why would it carry and air to air missile when there was no air threat? Are you forgetting the rebels had no aircraft?

Secondly why would they only half till the tank to reach a height where they wouldn't be expecting an air attack from?

gandalf

Meanwhile in Russian "liberated" Crimea life gets better for its inhabitents.

The disputed Prime Minister of Crimea has said the state “does not need gay people” and will ban all pro-equality events, threatening a police crackdown.

Sergei Aksyonov, who came to power after the peninsula was annexed by Russia in March, appears to be following Vladimir Putin’s lead in restricting rights for the LGBT community.

Speaking during a government session in Simferopol on Tuesday, he said gay people "have no chance" in the new Crimea and should be “educated” about their orientation.

“We in Crimea do not need such people, and they will never hold their events publicly,” he said according to Interfax news agency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/crimean-pm-says-police-and-military-will-teach-gay-people-what-orientation-to-have-in-crackdown-on-lgbt-community-9709289.html

So alls great in Crimea providing your not Gay, a Tartar or any other minority or don't agree with the Russian Government.

steveblack

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Your scraping the barrel now. That's a very specific setup you've listed there. First of all why would it carry and air to air missile when there was no air threat? Are you forgetting the rebels had no aircraft?

Secondly why would they only half till the tank to reach a height where they wouldn't be expecting an air attack from?

If the mission was to shoot down MH17 and blame the rebels?
Think about it before you believe what the west media wants you to believe.
Cui Bono?

steveblack

gandalf wrote: »

No I would like you to back up what you say with PROOF please. Can you do that? Stop diverting from this subject please.

So you dont want a link to proof sent in private?

I believe the mods would ban me if i posted the link here, if a mod gives me permission i will.
Its Gruesome , NSFW.

pablomakaveli

steveblack wrote: »

If the mission was to shoot down MH17 and blame the rebels?
Think about it before you believe what the west media wants you to believe.
Cui Bono?

I have. And I believe the simplest answer is the most likely of the rebels using the anti-air they had been using against the Ukrainians in the weeks previous on MH-17 by mistake.

Rather than the false flag nonsense that would be too risky and pointless to for the Ukrainians to bother with.