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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.
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steveblack wrote: »So the Secretary General of NATO Anders Fogh Rasmussen is mouthing off about Russia.
Secretary is the right term, never served a day in the military.
Given that Denmark has compulsory military service, this seems unlikely. Do you have a source for this claim?0 -
steveblack wrote: »They still wont Refute post #2056.
I wonder why?steveblack wrote: »As if any county is going to post the full capabilities of their military/weapons.
Refute post #2056.
The west has backed the Nazis, accept it.
History will show Russia was on the right side in this conflict.steveblack wrote: »Still wont Refute post #2056.
Its ok, i understand, your whole world view has been turned upside down.
It will take a while to come to your senses and realize that everything you see on the TV News is not true.
Still no comment on post #2056.
I wonder why?steveblack wrote: »post #2056 has plenty of links, You don't seem to understand this is a discussion form, i have made no wild accusations, i have backed them with links, yet no one will refute them.
Dont attack the poster, attack the post.
Fill your boots with post #2056.
Mod:
Cut out demanding and badgering for answers. Gandalf answered your question in post 2228, not getting the reply you want does not mean somebody didn't answer it.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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i’ll leave this tread, you can all congratulate yourself for successfully circling the wagons and defending your myopic world view.
What i’v learned from this tread is that the hive mind is strong and prevalent, anything that challenges the group think must be attacked.
I look forward to the day when the wheels fall of the EU/USA Ukrainian adventure, the sense of bewilderment and disappointment will jump of the screen when i see the usual suspects here try and make sense of it all.
From wikipedia , it sums up perfectly the pro USA/EU hive mind evident here.
“Stockholm syndrome, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.”
Lap up the western media news, sit in front of the TV and soak in the glory of your hollywood idols, don’t let anything change you. Stay the course, you have lived a long time in fantasy land, to leave now would only crush you.0 -
steveblack wrote: »i’ll leave this tread, you can all congratulate yourself for successfully circling the wagons and defending your myopic world view.
What i’v learned from this tread is that the hive mind is strong and prevalent, anything that challenges the group think must be attacked.
To challenge properly you have to have verifiable facts with substance. When you have been challenged you have not provided anything to substantially back up what you claim are facts.
Furthermore your assertions that numerous media organisations across a number of countries that a lot of us are using to back up our discussions are all in on a master conspiracy is quite frankly ludicrous and delusional.
The only hive mind I see the evidence of is the one where the west is evil and that gives Russia freedom to do whatever the hell they want because of this. Unfortunately there seem to be a number like this, some I suspect because of their national affiliation which I can understand and then the rest who really seem to have major trust issues in general.0 -
steveblack wrote: »i’ll leave this tread, you can all congratulate yourself for successfully circling the wagons and defending your myopic world view.
What i’v learned from this tread is that the hive mind is strong and prevalent, anything that challenges the group think must be attacked.
I look forward to the day when the wheels fall of the EU/USA Ukrainian adventure, the sense of bewilderment and disappointment will jump of the screen when i see the usual suspects here try and make sense of it all.
From wikipedia , it sums up perfectly the pro USA/EU hive mind evident here.
“Stockholm syndrome, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness.”
Lap up the western media news, sit in front of the TV and soak in the glory of your hollywood idols, don’t let anything change you. Stay the course, you have lived a long time in fantasy land, to leave now would only crush you.
What you have just described,well you are the other side of the same coin.
You dislike the west and believe that makes you more aware or more open to the truth. In fact you are as close minded as those you decry.0 -
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The only hive mind I see the evidence of is the one where the west is evil and that gives Russia freedom to do whatever the hell they want because of this. Unfortunately there seem to be a number like this, some I suspect because of their national affiliation which I can understand and then the rest who really seem to have major trust issues in general.
Gandalf Im just curious what you mean about the part Ive bolded. you realise other peoples governments cant be trusted right? doesnt matter who they are, the Russians, Americans, British, French, German. none of them can be trusted. those nations current and historic are war mongering nations. pick any foreign government take your pick and they arent to be trusted. because they act in their own interests. thats how the world works. that has nothing to do with trust issues thats just how it is. or do you think otherwise? theres no such thing as good guys. none of them are good.0 -
Elmer Blooker wrote: »I posted this link weeks ago and I'm posting it again. It clearly says that a SU 25 has a ceiling of 10,000m.
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25M1.html
There has been significant circumstantial evidence to point to the pro Russian separtists shooting down MH17.
The Russian separtists loudly bosted on twitter and in phone calls to each other of shooting down a plane, a very large plane around about the same time as MH17 was shot down. They subsequently removed these posts. They also sent back the AA missile system across the Russian border with one missile missing. It's pretty much cast iron they did it, they even admitted to it.
The fact your allies in the pro Russian movement admitted to shooting down a large plane at the time is good enough for me. On this rare occassion they were telling the truth.
Only people deliberately trying to muddy the waters or lying would say they had nothing to do with it. So save yourself the energy trying to convince us otherwise. Maybe you buy Russian propaganda, the rest of us actually have a brain.0 -
So Poreshenko, the leader of that non Nato member has been sipping champagne and chatting to his buddies at the Nato summit, where its been decided that the EU in their wisdom are going to unleash another set of sanctions upon the Russians..
The European Union is set to unveil a fresh package of sanctions against Russia as western leaders staged a show of support for the Ukrainian government.
The move comes after UK Prime Minister David Cameron, US president Barack Obama and other senior Nato leaders held talks with Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko at the alliance summit in Wales.
British government sources said that the EU would unveil measures in Brussels tomorrow – including sanctions targeting state-owned Russian defence and energy companies.
They will also look to strengthen existing measures against state-owned banks and extend controls on the sale of military equipment to cover dual-use civilian military kit.
It is expected that the White House will announce similar measures against Moscow.
One source said they were designed to force Mr Putin “to the negotiating table and off the battlefield” in eastern Ukraine.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/eu-to-impose-further-sanctions-on-russia-641112.html
Obozo and Cameron appear to be idiots because this, as sure as night turns to day, is going to have repercussions for Europe.
If they are going to sanction Russian energy companies and banks it might be a smart a idea to make sure we are prepared for the possible rebound. last time I looked at the numbers sometime in March European gas inventories were at maybe 45% capacity enough to probably last a month and half if supplies are disrupted.
but wait...
Slovakia has opened a pipeline that is able to deliver gas from the EU to Ukraine as Kyiv grapples with Russian supply cuts ahead of the winter. The EU said a reverse-flow mechanism had been put into place.
"If we put together three reverse points in the nations mentioned, we can reach 25 billion cubic meters of gas supplies per year in the mid-term horizon, which would provide the solution Ukraine needs at the moment," Fico said in a statement.
http://www.dw.de/slovakia-opens-reverse-flow-pipeline-to-carry-gas-to-ukraine/a-17895333
though fear not, the EU have this one in hand. a document has been drafted..as the gas flows outward.
"The European Union is preparing to take action to secure gas supplies this winter if its biggest supplier, Russia, cuts exports due to the crisis in Ukraine, a draft document seen by Reuters showed.
The measures could include making use of existing powers to ban companies from selling liquefied natural gas (LNG) tanker cargoes outside Europe, keep more gas in reserve, and order industry to stop using gas.
The draft document, which confirms information from a European Commission source, said the EU could take emergency action to ensure that more coordinated use is made of facilities for converting LNG back into natural gas and of gas storage capacity.
This could be done "when the normal functioning of the market does not lead to the optimal use of those facilities," the document said.
http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/eu-prepares-powers-russian-winter-gas-cut?0 -
It looks like Crimea is not really a viable entity without a major land route to Russia, which might explain recent Russian aggression in Eastern Ukraine. They want to create a landbridge to Crimea so it becomes in some way viable economically. There's strong evidence to indicate there are at least 10,000 Russian regular soldiers now fighting in Eastern Ukraine. The endgoals seem uncertain. I would imagine, once a land route to Crimea is secured and a significant portion of Eastern Ukraine is annexed, Putin will declare it time to talk.
However, he is getting deeper and deeper into an economic and military quagmire as well as a foreign affairs disaster. The big loser in all of this will be the Russian economy which is fragile as is. The Putinistas think the guy is great, giving the hated west a bloody nose, teaching the EU and US a lesson, the rise of the USSR once more. Sadly he's walked his country into a disaster and goes further and further down that route, cheerleaded all the way by his admirers on here and elsewhere.0 -
Gandalf Im just curious what you mean about the part Ive bolded. you realise other peoples governments cant be trusted right? doesnt matter who they are, the Russians, Americans, British, French, German. none of them can be trusted. those nations current and historic are war mongering nations. pick any foreign government take your pick and they arent to be trusted. because they act in their own interests. thats how the world works. that has nothing to do with trust issues thats just how it is. or do you think otherwise? theres no such thing as good guys. none of them are good.
I wasn't referring to Governments. No Government can be trusted totally, even our own surprisingly enough. Some people don't seem to be able to trust any sort of organisation and see a conspiracy at every corner.
I tend to subscribe to the Occam's razor theory.0 -
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Wakeup if Russia decides to turn off the gas in response to any tightening of the sanctions it will be hurting itself more, well it will be hurting Gazprom.The unspoken threat to leave Europeans shivering in the cold next winter may be Moscow's trump card in its confrontation with the West over Ukraine.
But for both technical and financial reasons, the world's biggest gas exporter would be badly hurt by any decision to cut off its main customers in Europe.
Twice in the past decade, Moscow responded to natural gas price disputes with Ukraine by cutting off supplies, affecting its European clients further down its pipelines. As tensions between the West and Russia have escalated in recent weeks, the EU has begun drafting emergency measures to brace itself for another potential energy supply crisis.
Only President Vladimir Putin can decide whether another cut-off will take place, sources at Russia's giant energy monopoly Gazprom say. But they also say the company would face unprecedented difficulty if it were to cut supplies to Europe for a prolonged period of time.
For technical reasons, the gas has nowhere else to go but out to customers: It is impossible to severely scale back extraction volumes at Gazprom's giant fields in Siberia, nor could such huge amounts of gas be safely flared off.
On the financial side, Russia's second most indebted company would face big challenges in servicing its debt were export revenues to plummet. Economic sanctions against Moscow have already caused new lending to dry up, meaning Gazprom has little alternative besides steady income from exports to pay its day-to-day bills and the wages of its half million workers.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/shutting-off-gas-supplies-to-eu-would-be-huge-blow-to-gazprom/506446.html0 -
I wasn't referring to Governments. No Government can be trusted totally, even our own surprisingly enough. Some people don't seem to be able to trust any sort of organisation and see a conspiracy at every corner.
I tend to subscribe to the Occam's razor theory.
sometimes things are what they seem and sometimes they arent. in earth politics in many instances what you see is not what you get. Occams razor has its purpose but its often taken out of context and applied in situations where it shouldnt be. its subjective. only evidence is absolute. occams razor should never be put forward on its own to support or disprove a theory or an argument.0 -
realweirdo wrote: »There's strong evidence to indicate there are at least 10,000 Russian regular soldiers now fighting in Eastern Ukraine.
Proof!
or is it not need when it conforms to the russia bad, USA/EU good idea prevalenthere?0 -
Wakeup if Russia decides to turn off the gas in response to any tightening of the sanctions it will be hurting itself more, well it will be hurting Gazprom.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/shutting-off-gas-supplies-to-eu-would-be-huge-blow-to-gazprom/506446.html
it will hurt them for sure a large chunk of their income comes from gas exports as we all know. but its really going to hurt us. if it happens we have a major problem on our hands.0 -
Unfortunately wakeup I don't think O'Bomber and Cameron are idiots. I think they know exactly what they are doing. The insular UK (where the clock stopped in 1945!) has never really been enthusiastic about European Union and I don't think it would bother Cameron too much if the EU fell apart.Obozo and Cameron appear to be idiots because this, as sure as night turns to day, is going to have repercussions for Europe.
You don't have to be a genius to see that the US does not want a powerful EU trading bloc doing business with an equally powerful Russia. The end is nigh for the EU.
* I'll ignore realweirdo's post #2259 because of its belligerent tone.0 -
the anglo american axis. the British like their pound and the Americans like their dollar. and neither particularly like the euro.0
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notice the way Merkel, until July 17th the most influential politician in Europe has now disappeared into the background.0
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it will hurt them for sure a large chunk of their income comes from gas exports as we all know. but its really going to hurt us. if it happens we have a major problem on our hands.
It shouldn't hurt Ireland a great deal as we import a relatively small amount of our fuel needs from Russia, it will hurt the Germans a great deal http://www.dw.de/germanys-russian-energy-dilemma/a-17529685 but then they are the idiots that decided to run down their nuclear program after the Fukishima incident, I wonder if these events will cause a rethink of Germany's policy. It also may increase the interest in fracking in order to gain more energy independence from the Russians.0 -
sometimes things are what they seem and sometimes they arent. in earth politics in many instances what you see is not what you get. Occams razor has its purpose but its often taken out of context and applied in situations where it shouldnt be. its subjective. only evidence is absolute. occams razor should never be put forward on its own to support or disprove a theory or an argument.
TBH its not rigidly adhered to. I do look leftfield on occasion as well.
The difference is that some people seem to start from the most off the wall positions as their default. I believe thats the issue with some of the posters on this thread.0 -
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Elmer Blooker wrote: »notice the way Merkel, until July 17th the most influential politician in Europe has now disappeared into the background.
The Germans have been negotiating closely with the Russians behind the scenes to try and bring an end to the conflict but to no avail (yet) it seems.0 -
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BlaasForRafa wrote: »It shouldn't hurt Ireland a great deal as we import a relatively small amount of our fuel needs from Russia, it will hurt the Germans a great deal http://www.dw.de/germanys-russian-energy-dilemma/a-17529685 but then they are the idiots that decided to run down their nuclear program after the Fukishima incident, I wonder if these events will cause a rethink of Germany's policy. It also may increase the interest in fracking in order to gain more energy independence from the Russians.
and the fact it will hurt Germany so much makes me wonder what Merkel is up too because surely she knows this, Germany of the important players in the EU more than anyone needs Russian energy. if Germany suffers that has a knock on effect and we all suffer. the EU and the world even is all interconnected if a number of EU members suffer, which they will, if this plays out. we will all suffer. some countries are nearly totally reliant on Russian energy imports. and if they just suddenly stop and the reserves run out. its a safe bet to assume that chaos and misery may ensue in some places. Im all for diversifying energy imports but Im yet to see to a plan that will actually work in the short to medium term. show me a plan and access to gas cheaper than the Russians are offering and Im all for it. but I dont see it. its going to take an effort of monumental proportions and time to sort that out. and until that time we need them. we need to have good relations with Russia we just do. the Russians export uranium too Europe aswell for the existing nuclear power plants.0 -
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and the fact it will hurt Germany so much makes me wonder what Merkel is up too because surely she knows this, Germany of the important players in the EU more than anyone needs Russian energy. if Germany suffers that has a knock on effect and we all suffer. the EU and the world even is all interconnected if a number of EU members suffer, which they will, if this plays out. we will all suffer. some countries are nearly totally reliant on Russian energy imports. and if they just suddenly stop and the reserves run out. its a safe bet to assume that chaos and misery may ensue in some places. Im all for diversifying energy imports but Im yet to see to a plan that will actually work in the short to medium term. show me a plan and access to gas cheaper than the Russians are offering and Im all for it. but I dont see it. its going to take an effort of monumental proportions and time to sort that out. and until that time we need them. we need to have good relations with Russia we just do. the Russians export uranium too Europe aswell for the existing nuclear power plants.
Depending how all this pans out she could end up being labelled the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century. She is now coming under a lot of pressure to back real hard hitting sanctions and I believe that is what is going to happen.From the very beginning of this crisis, it was Merkel who used her relatively good relations with the Russian president to at least try to understand him, to convey different viewpoints and also to warn him. US President Barack Obama and the other Europeans also followed her lead.
Ultimately, though, the approach didn't achieve the necessary results.
No one within the EU or NATO is accusing Merkel of failing, but at the NATO summit this week, Merkel is likely to face some tough questions. Like why NATO partners should continue a dialogue with a man who often doesn't keep his word? And what happens if the constant tightening of sanctions doesn't make any impression on the Kremlin?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/pressure-mounts-for-more-aggressive-stance-against-russia-a-989216.html0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »And, as we all know, doing nothing whatsoever and letting Russia do whatever the hell it wants would be utterly consequence-free.
do you subscribe to the belief that the Russians intend to invade Europe or attack a nato member? because I dont. because that would be insane thing to do and it would mean war. what consequences are you alluding too?..we are basically at a threshold now we are coming close to the point where diplomacy can no longer resolve this. this is what happens when you go down the road of sanctions. either someone backs down or they become more severe till breaking point is reached. sanctioning Russian energy companies, potentially freezing them out of the international financial system. that is going to have consequences for everyone. severe ones at that.Depending how all this pans out she could end up being labelled the Neville Chamberlain of the 21st century. She is now coming under a lot of pressure to back real hard hitting sanctions and I believe that is what is going to happen.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/pressure-mounts-for-more-aggressive-stance-against-russia-a-989216.html
you cant compare this situation to world war 2 for a number of reasons. every action has a reaction. you cant bully Russia. you just cant. and they arent going to back down. I also dont believe Putin has any intention of invading Europe and attacking Nato countries. that said if he feels threatened by Nato on his border he will not hesitate to act. the stakes are high. for all of us.0 -
you cant compare this situation to world war 2 for a number of reasons. every action has a reaction. you cant bully Russia. you just cant. and they arent going to back down. I also dont believe Putin has any intention of invading Europe and attacking Nato countries. that said if he feels threatened by Nato on his border he will not hesitate to act. the stakes are high. for all of us.
But the parallels are striking. What do you suggest? Reward the Russians for their aggressive actions? That is appeasement and imho is just kicking the can down the line and probably creating a much larger problem in the future.
I'd be very interested to hear what you think should be done or can be done to resolve this situation.0 -
A year ago I didn't think that Russia was planning to annex part of Ukraine and destabilise the rest of the country with an apparent view to annexing more.do you subscribe to the belief that the Russians intend to invade Europe or attack a nato member? because I dont.
If you think it's inconceivable that Russia's barely-disguised belligerence towards its former vassals could possibly extend further than Ukraine, fair enough. I have no idea what you base that faith on, but it's a bit much to describe as "idiots" those who don't share your views, particularly when they are heads of state whose actual job it is to weigh such risks.0 -
But the parallels are striking. What do you suggest? Reward the Russians for their aggressive actions? That is appeasement and imho is just kicking the can down the line and probably creating a much larger problem in the future.
I'd be very interested to hear what you think should be done or can be done to resolve this situation.
in world war two the Germans before it kicked off didnt have a nuclear armed alliance aligned against it. this is nuclear armed superpowers squaring off with each other. it isnt like world war 2. if it goes hot it could be over in days hours even.
Im not sure what can be done at this stage. Id like to see the rebels and Kiev come to some sort of peace agreement and whatever help people/logistics the Russians have sent to the south and east, leave and go back to Russia. then for some sort of federal set up to be installed there where the people of that region have more scope to rule themselves but also Kiev is in a position to retain income from that region so they can survive. that is where the wealth is in Ukraine. but they dont seem to want to negotiate with the rebels as they believe the EU/Nato are going to somehow fix this for them. which they cant unless you want to go to war with Russia. then there is the issue of Crimea which is now part of Russia rightly or wrongly. Ukraine say they want it back but I just cant see that ever happening now unless the Russians are physically removed. Id like to see a deal signed between Kiev and Russia and once again Kiev to be given a share of whatever incomes are from that region and any other further resources that are discovered. and who knows maybe further down the line Russia will give Crimea back but im not really sure that is ever going to happen. whatever the Russians have done whether we agree with it or not its done. and there isnt a military solution to this that will work in favour of Ukraine. so I think they need to start talking to both Russia and the rebels. I dont think they have many other options. I dont believe the Russians are suicidal and I believe this will end with Ukraine. unless this keeps being pushed and they feel like they are being backed into a corner. you do not want to do that to the Russians. there is only one way they will come out of that. both sides need to start talking and maybe solutions can be found. for everyones sake.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »A year ago I didn't think that Russia was planning to annex part of Ukraine and destabilise the rest of the country with an apparent view to annexing more.
If you think it's inconceivable that Russia's barely-disguised belligerence towards its former vassals could possibly extend further than Ukraine, fair enough. I have no idea what you base that faith on, but it's a bit much to describe as "idiots" those who don't share your views, particularly when they are heads of state whose actual job it is to weigh such risks.
I base it on the fact that if Russia attacks a Nato or EU country then they know what will happen. and if they were stupid enough to do such a thing you wont find me defending them. though countries outside Nato and EU its bad and all for them yes. but it isnt our problem. I would suggest anyone who instigates a set of sanctions that has the potential to cut our energy supply off and all the ensuing problems that will cause an idiot. I would also suggest anyone who believes its a good idea to attempt to freeze the Russians out of the international financial system an idiot too. because both of those ideas as far as Im concerned are bad ideas. really bad ideas. whatever Obozo and Cameron may think or say to the contrary.0 -
comongethappy wrote: »My opinion is, NATO, do its job & commit to its minimum spend thresholds.
Diversify energy mix to reduce Russia's relevance.
May not fix anything, but it would help.
Over to you.....
read back a few posts to my reply to Gandalf he already asked me something similar which I answered..where is this energy going to come from? I keep hearing this and im all for that..but how..what else should Nato do..the Russians have nukes...so what do you think Nato should spend money on....0 -
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read back a few posts to my reply to Gandalf he already asked me something similar which I answered..where is this energy going to come from? I keep hearing this and im all for that..but how..what else should Nato do..the Russians have nukes...so what do you think Nato should spend money on....
I'll check back.
In terms of Nukes, the European NATO members have been apathetic about integrating BMD systems with America, most have none of any kind.
They have been happy to have a few Arleigh Burkes dotted around the Mediterranean...
- Accelerate the land base Aegis systems which have been long fingered for Romania/Bulgaria for years now (currently only available on naval platforms).
- Spend some money on getting Aegis & the UK Sampson radar to speak to each other.... Currently I don't think they do.
Despite what the critics say, BMD can & does work.
In tests, its only Russia's largest ICBMs can penetrate it, and even then not 100% of the time.
Its why Putin went into hysterics over mere patriot batteries being deployed in Poland/Czech republic.... They know much of their arsenal may prove innefective.
Patriot deployments will be the least of his worries once land-deployed Aegis goes fully live.
The US is also getting somewhat close to completing their naval based missile system to track & destroy satellites, unmatched in the world but years away.... That was stalled by budget cuts.
If/when in the next decades(s) the US achieves satellite kill capability its game over for any enemy ICBM or satellite guided BM.
However.... As they say "if Ifs & buts were candy nuts"....
Nato is fat & weak (relative to its potential).
Its leaders can't see past their next election cycle so are blind to big pictures, Putin isn't distracted by that anymore.0
This discussion has been closed.
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