Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Elmer Blooker

Lemming wrote: »

So you're ok with "little" countries being bullied by big countries, and considering themselves under enough of a threat that they ask one big country to protect them against another big country, or that they join a collective of countries to stand up to the "big boys" as you put it.

I dare say that all of these "little" countries have a great deal better idea of what it's like to live under a Russian jackboot than you do ...



And yet ... the Russians are very quick to tell others when they've violated their airspace. And that's on top of the Russians routinely sending nuclear bombers into UK airspace. It's sabre-rattling doctrine that goes back to the cold war days and nothing more. Incidentally, it was under Putin's watch that had all those military cold war flights were re-instated a few years back.

Ireland is a little country that has been bullied by a bigger country but thankfully we have a good relationship with our nearest neighbour now.
NATO will not allow the Baltic republics to have good relations with Russia as it is an organization that cannot exist without aggression and the threat of violence and war.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Ireland is a little country that has been bullied by a bigger country but thankfully we have a good relationship with our nearest neighbour now.
NATO will not allow the Baltic republics to have good relations with Russia as it is an organization that cannot exist without aggression and the threat of violence and war.

How can you have good relations with a country that treats it's neighbours with disdain? Eastern European countries join NATO because they feel threatened and they're right to do so as mutual defence is better than facing the threat alone.

Elmer Blooker

pablomakaveli wrote: »

How can you have good relations with a country that treats it's neighbours with disdain? Eastern European countries join NATO because they feel threatened and they're right to do so as mutual defence is better than facing the threat alone.

It would help if the Baltic republics didn't treat their Russian minorities as second class citizens. We know what happened on this island when Catholics weren't given equality.

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

It would help if the Baltic republics didn't treat their Russian minorities as second class citizens. We know what happened on this island when Catholics weren't given equality.

Do you have any idea why the Baltic republics might possibly dislike the Russians?

comongethappy

Lemming wrote: »

Do you have any idea why the Baltic republics might possibly dislike the Russians?

Baltic types just never appreciated how good they had it under the CCCP.

Ungrateful!

Icepick

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

It would help if the Baltic republics didn't treat their Russian minorities as second class citizens.

any facts?

comongethappy

Icepick wrote: »

any facts?

In fairness to him, this is a 'Unicorn-dancing-the-charleston' moment of rarity where Elmer has a small point.

Estonia if I recall have been remiss in failing to grant/acknowledge citizenship of people of Russian ethnicity.

I think the EU has been pushing them to acknowledge the Russian citizenship of all pre-91 residents??

Does it justify sabre rattling/air-space violations & the like?
No, certainly not.

WakeUp

Icepick wrote: »

any facts?

In a post of yours yesterday you said something along the lines that the Americans dont have a side in this conflict any facts to back that assertion up yourself?..facts please...

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

I have no clue what you're on about. We're on an internet forum.

I sympathise with Ukraine and the way they're being fcuked with by Russia and I hope the west gets its crap together and offers them more support.

Whats your solution?

ok fair enough youd like to see more action. though Ive no clue what you are on about or what you might mean by that. like what? whats the plan....the Russians are diking the Ukrainians, clearly, infact the Ukrainian army has already been spanked to the point that it doesnt hurt anymore..so what do you suggest?..

Egginacup

pablomakaveli wrote: »

How can you have good relations with a country that treats it's neighbours with disdain? Eastern European countries join NATO because they feel threatened and they're right to do so as mutual defence is better than facing the threat alone.

Why hasn't Finland joined Nato then, or Belarus for that matter. You talk about Russia treating its neighbours with disdain. What exactly are you talking about? Because from where I'm standing I don't see this "disdain" you're on about. What, does Russia make jokes about Poles? Does Russia make Lithuanian women strip naked at the border if they are going on vacation to St. Petersburg? What, pray tell, is this disdain? Because I think I would prefer to be treated with "disdain" then massacred at the hands of NATO soldiers who tell me they're just trying to help me before the blow me and my children and my wife and my granny to chopmeat.

Lemming

Egginacup wrote: »

Why hasn't Finland joined Nato then, or Belarus for that matter. You talk about Russia treating its neighbours with disdain. What exactly are you talking about? Because from where I'm standing I don't see this "disdain" you're on about. What, does Russia make jokes about Poles? Does Russia make Lithuanian women strip naked at the border if they are going on vacation to St. Petersburg? What, pray tell, is this disdain? Because I think I would prefer to be treated with "disdain" then massacred at the hands of NATO soldiers who tell me they're just trying to help me before the blow me and my children and my wife and my granny to chopmeat.

The Russians & the Fins don't have a particularly good relationship as it stands owing the the fact that the Fins kicked the sh*t out of the Russians twice (two seperate "wars") over the course of WW2, and at the end of WW2, the Russians didn't have the distraction that was the Nazi regime to rely upon to have another go after signing an armastice with the Fins in 1944.

Gatling

Lemming wrote: »

The Russians & the Fins don't have a particularly good relationship as it stands owing the the fact that the Fins kicked the sh*t out of the Russians twice (two seperate "wars") over the course of WW2, and at the end of WW2, the Russians didn't have the distraction that was the Nazi regime to rely upon.

One man alone dispatched 500+ Russian soldiers in a 100 day period

Simo Häyhä showed an aggressive super power what one determined Finnish man and his bolt action rifle could do ,

Elmer Blooker

Lemming wrote: »

Do you have any idea why the Baltic republics might possibly dislike the Russians?

No idea. I've no idea either why they commemorate as heroes Latvian, Estonian and Lithuanian Waffen SS divisions who murdered Jews and Russians during WW2.

The Russians & the Fins don't have a particularly good relationship as it stands owing the the fact that the Fins kicked the sh*t out of the Russians twice (two seperate "wars") over the course of WW2, and at the end of WW2, the Russians didn't have the distraction that was the Nazi regime to rely upon to have another go after signing an armastice with the Fins in 1944.

you don't know what you're talking about. In the first war "The Winter War" the Finns surrendered when they had no reserves left but it was a hollow victory for the Soviets. In the second war (1941-44) the Finns were hammered and lost a lot of territory to the Russians.

comongethappy

Finland has little appetite for Joining NATO overall

Though let none of Putin's supporters assume that is out of some sort of liking for Russia.
More out of fierce Finnish independence.

Finland is an associate/partner member of NATO & have contributed to NATO missions in Afghanistan.

[Urlhttp://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Finland[/URL]

Belorus?
A dictatorship vassal of the Kremlin.

gallag

comongethappy wrote: »

This is memory stuff from defence articles.

Realcleardefence.com
& naval-technology.com have some good data.

None of what I said is false though.

Europe's BMD shield is largely based on a few Arleigh Burke destroyers in Spain & Italy, (I'm unsure specifically of their capability, but I don't think its sufficient).
A land based Aegis was promised but not yet delivered... It may be reevaluated.
America is indeed trying to perfect a system to knock out satellites, but its apparently miles from completion.

I'm pretty certain a heavy ICBM in terminal phase is too fast to intercept, but smaller ones can be shot down if in range of Aegis or PAAMS.

What about the british type 45 destroyers, probably the most advanced guided missile destroyers in the world, the U.K has six of those at a cost of a billion each.

Lemming

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No idea. I've no idea either why they commemorate as heroes Latvian, Estonian and Lithuanian Waffen SS divisions who murdered Jews and Russians during WW2.

Have you got credible historical citations for that? Are such alleged commemorations national holidays? or something that some toolbag neo-nazi in a shed somewhere once posted on facebook from Latvia?

WakeUp

nobody makes better missiles than the Russians in my opinion they have the best missile tech in the world. their air defence systems are at least ten years ahead of anything in the west. American power well what we know of it is maybe 80% air power. so send planes and ships into range doesnt matter where they come from be it America and Britain and the Russian s400 and sunburn land to sea missiles really will make short work of most them. nukes however they are different. if even 1% of Russian nukes were to hit their targets. tis lights out for one and all. game over.

gandalf

WakeUp wrote: »

nobody makes better missiles than the Russians in my opinion they have the best missile tech in the world. their air defence systems are at least ten years ahead of anything in the west. American power well what we know of it is maybe 80% air power. so send planes and ships into range doesnt matter where they come from be it America and Britain and the Russian s400 and sunburn land to sea missiles really will make short work of most them. nukes however they are different. if even 1% of Russian nukes were to hit their targets. tis lights out for one and all. game over.

I actually would say you are right, they do have very good missile tech.

But this is not a shooting war. It is now an economic war, the bullets are lost jobs, the artillery shells will be bankrupt companies.

Some others are saying we are being manipulated by the Americans. That may be true but as a European I believe we have to take a stand against a nation within our sphere that seems to think that raw aggression and intimidation of their nearest neighbours is acceptable behaviour these days. It isn't and they have to understand like in Physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". You destabilise and send troops illegally into your neighbours territory then you can expect to become an international pariah.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

I actually would say you are right, they do have very good missile tech.

But this is not a shooting war. It is now an economic war, the bullets are lost jobs, the artillery shells will be bankrupt companies.

Some others are saying we are being manipulated by the Americans. That may be true but as a European I believe we have to take a stand against a nation within our sphere that seems to think that raw aggression and intimidation of their nearest neighbours is acceptable behaviour these days. It isn't and they have to understand like in Physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". You destabilise and send troops illegally into your neighbours territory then you can expect to become an international pariah.

and hopefully it stays like that. nobody us or the Russians should or does want to see a shooting war. because that is just crazy. when the soviet union collapsed the Russians made a strategic decision to focus on missile tech. and nobody does it better. yeah the west has some badass kit but let no one be under any illusions has to what the Russians have or what they are capable of..here are a few videos..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxUnnbZDqAc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbPFEpJSRT8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1czaipxJuMo

some people believe that Russia is the enemy. fair enough. if thats the case. then know your enemy.

gandalf

Yes but if anyone launches nukes then they will be destroyed as well no matter how good their missile interceptor tech is.

I nearly feel that you are suggesting that Russia be let get away with their actions because they have bigger bombs.

WakeUp

no Im not suggesting that at all and I think deep inside you know that. I want to see this sorted out through talking and diplomacy. but it appears the west is of the opinion they can bully the Russians into submission and they cant. you cant bully Russia or try and force their hand through threats and military threats. the only way to sort this out is through talking. like you say if this goes hot. we are all phucked every single one of us. so we need a diplomatic solution to this one that involves all parties. and we need it soon. but all im seeing is provocation and ratcheting up of tensions on all sides. and I want to see the opposite. im not suggesting anyone gets away with anything. Ukraine, Russia, America and any other party to this conflict. they can all suck my balls. I just dont want to see a big war so whatever needs to be done and whatever action needs to be taken thats what I want to see. and thats the side Im on. Im on the side of lets not let have a war. thats where Im at.

pablomakaveli

Egginacup wrote: »

Why hasn't Finland joined Nato then, or Belarus for that matter. You talk about Russia treating its neighbours with disdain. What exactly are you talking about? Because from where I'm standing I don't see this "disdain" you're on about. What, does Russia make jokes about Poles? Does Russia make Lithuanian women strip naked at the border if they are going on vacation to St. Petersburg? What, pray tell, is this disdain? Because I think I would prefer to be treated with "disdain" then massacred at the hands of NATO soldiers who tell me they're just trying to help me before the blow me and my children and my wife and my granny to chopmeat.

Well the Finns and the Swedes feel it's now necessary to have closer links with NATO due to whats happening in the Ukraine and Russian incursions into their airspace.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/finland-and-sweden-to-bolster-ties-with-nato-1.1918366

Belarus is in control of a pro-Russian dictator.

And drop the hyperbole nonsense. If you're struggling to see how Lithuania and Poland have been treated badly by Russia you're either being obtuse or just delibrately ignoring it.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No idea. I've no idea either why they commemorate as heroes Latvian, Estonian and Lithuanian Waffen SS divisions who murdered Jews and Russians during WW2.

Ah, the old if they're against Russia there Nazi's defence.

Did you know Russians also volunteered for the SS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_RONA_%281st_Russian%29

Every country the Germans took had SS volunteers. It doesn't mean the whole country they came from was a Nazi country then and now.

Elmer Blooker

Well the Finns and the Swedes feel it's now necessary to have closer links with NATO due to whats happening in the Ukraine and Russian incursions into their airspace.

Not so sure about the Finns but few people realise that perfect peace loving Sweden has a huge arms industry. Why wouldn't they join NATO? Its all about killing people - bu$ine$$ is bu$ine$$

Ah, the old if they're against Russia there Nazi's defence.

read up on the Vilna pogroms in 1941, very disturbing.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Not so sure about the Finns but few people realise that perfect peace loving Sweden has a huge arms industry. Why wouldn't they join NATO? Its all about killing people - bu$ine$$ is bu$ine$$

Another nonsense non-point of no substance from you.:rolleyes:

read up on the Vilna pogroms in 1941, very disturbing.

And Russia has it's history of pogroms. Anything to say about the Russian SS volunteers?

Fig of Fallacy

gandalf wrote: »

But this is not a shooting war. It is now an economic war, the bullets are lost jobs, the artillery shells will be bankrupt companies.

Some others are saying we are being manipulated by the Americans. That may be true but as a European I believe we have to take a stand against a nation within our sphere that seems to think that raw aggression and intimidation of their nearest neighbours is acceptable behaviour these days. It isn't and they have to understand like in Physics "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". You destabilise and send troops illegally into your neighbours territory then you can expect to become an international pariah.

As a european? Wtf is this? We have to take a stand? The only stand to take is against our own criminal leaders who are bringing ww3 upon us all by intentionally poking russia with a big stick.

Everything you said in your second paragraph is shameless double speak. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that its NATO thats guilty of all those things and russia hasnt done any of it.

Russia hasnt sent troops in ukraine, and they are smart not too because it would only make it worse. What has happened is that ethic russians are being killed by Kiev, and thus alot of Russian volunteers have joined in the fight along side their brethren. Nothing illegal nor immoral about that.

You would be expected to do the same if your community/family was getting assaulted.

The only invasion thats taking place is the invasion of your imagination by the most crazed propaganda that europe has seen since the Nazi era.

Elmer Blooker

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Another nonsense non-point of no substance from you.:rolleyes:




And Russia has it's history of pogroms. Anything to say about the Russian SS volunteers?

There weren't any Russian SS divisions but there was "Vlasov's Army" who were turncoats who weren't ideologically driven. There were POWs who joined the German army just to get fed.
Interesting to note that if you know your history all the guards at the Nazi death camps were Ukrainian.

AbusesToilets

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

As a european? Wtf is this? We have to take a stand? The only stand to take is against our own criminal leaders who are bringing ww3 upon us all by intentionally poking russia with a big stick.

Everything you said in your second paragraph is shameless double speak. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that its NATO thats guilty of all those things and russia hasnt done any of it.

Russia hasnt sent troops in ukraine, and they are smart not too because it would only make it worse. What has happened is that ethic russians are being killed by Kiev, and thus alot of Russian volunteers have joined in the fight along side their brethren. Nothing illegal nor immoral about that.

You would be expected to do the same if your community/family was getting assaulted.

The only invasion thats taking place is the invasion of your imagination by the most crazed propaganda that europe has seen since the Nazi era.

Fantastic effort there, your mental flexibility to get around the facts of the situation and spin the blame back on NATO/ the rest of Europe is impressive.

This argument that the Ukrainians started this mess by attacking ethnic Russians is demonstrably false. Russia created this situation by supporting insurrectionists in Crimea and then sending in troops, violating another countries borders. The same actions that are now occurring in the East of the country.

I'd love to hear how you claim that NATO is responsible for this situation. I haven't seen reports of any NATO troops on the ground, bar perhaps those that were sent to the site of MH-17 to try and preserve some of the evidence there.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

There weren't any Russian SS divisions but there was "Vlasov's Army" who were turncoats who weren't ideologically driven. There were POWs who joined the German army just to get fed.
Interesting to note that if you know your history all the guards at the Nazi death camps were Ukrainian.

From my earlier post.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Every country the Germans took had SS volunteers. It doesn't mean the whole country they came from was a Nazi country then and now.

mmmcake

Has there been any real proof of a russian invasion, you know good videos or photos or are you happy with some stranger on facebook saying it happened.
The satellite pictures released by NATO look well dodgy,left over black and white ww2 reconnaissance pictures,with a nice layer of vaseline over the lense. Google earth has better quality photos of the cars outside my house.
The was a expert on the tv and in his opinion he can see that some people appear to be wearing what looks to be russian army clothing, that to me means nothing, sure i can go to a army surplus store tomorrow and get dressed head to toe in army clothes.So if you saw me walking around ireland tomorrow dressed in army clothes would you consider that proof of a invasion.
It appears to be that the ukraine army is taking a beating from a rag tag bunch of rebels and are trying to save face by claiming they have been invaded by russia.