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Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

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    #212
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    Conas wrote: »
    Well if the rumours are true that €5 billion of America's money went into Ukraine, then Obama has forces inside the goverment that he has no control over. Which goes to show how shockingly weak he really is. Listen to what Victoria Nuland said a while go with her 'F*ck the EU' comments. Obama has to find out who got that money, and what for. No point huffing and puffing at Russia. You reap what you sow.

    Link?


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    #213
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    you could just use google


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    #214
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,683 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    RTE Radio news has just reported that the head of the Russian Black Sea Fleet has put an ultimatum to the Ukrainian Military Bases in Sevastopol to surrender by dawn tomorrow or they will be attacked with maximum force


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    #215
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    Aljezzera also reported this


    then from the same live blog (which is a very good one)
    "A representative of Russia's Black Sea Fleet has said there are no plans of storming the military units of Ukraine in Crimea.

    "This is complete nonsense," the Russian military Interfax news agency reported.

    "We have become accustomed to the daily charges of carrying out any military actions in relation to our Ukrainian colleagues," said the representative.
    [Interfax-Military news agency]"


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    #216
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    bobcoffee wrote: »
    Aljezzera also reported this


    then from the same live blog (which is a very good one)
    "A representative of Russia's Black Sea Fleet has said there are no plans of storming the military units of Ukraine in Crimea.

    "This is complete nonsense," the Russian military Interfax news agency reported.

    "We have become accustomed to the daily charges of carrying out any military actions in relation to our Ukrainian colleagues," said the representative.
    [Interfax-Military news agency]"

    There have been eye witness accounts from journalists of the threat being delivered.
    Christopher Miller:

    Despite what Russian Defense Ministry says, those of us who were there heard this ship deliver ultimatum to Slavutych

    https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/440536399444328448

    The Ukrainian PM to the EU has also stated that they believe Russia is preparing a false flag operation to unleash war.


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    #217
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    man is someone starting a war with russia?
    cause it really sounds like a lot of misinformation going around and it doesn't make sense for Russia to be doing it.
    Since they get nothing from it, if the ultimatum was handed in then denying it would just look weak.

    also rumor going around earlier on social media about Kiev ordering its special ops to take back Crimera, but special forces said no.
    wouldn't believe that at all but was going around.

    I just checked the tweet, I thought it was something official, really need something more solid.
    One bullet drops and it won't be all out war but one thing for certain innocent people will get butchered.
    really hope it doesn't come to that.
    EU are not helping at all, really ashamed to be a european atm. when will we learn?


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    #218
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    What is Bobcoffee's plan to make the EU all that he desires??


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    #219
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    bobcoffee wrote: »
    man is someone starting a war with russia?
    cause it really sounds like a lot of misinformation going around and it doesn't make sense for Russia to be doing it.
    Since they get nothing from it, if the ultimatum was handed in then denying it would just look weak.

    Ohai Mr. Medev, didn't see you set up that account ...
    also rumor going around earlier on social media about Kiev ordering its special ops to take back Crimera, but special forces said no.
    wouldn't believe that at all but was going around.

    Errr, rumour? So you haven't seen that youtube video with Russian special forces captured on camera & being told to p1ss off by Ukranian officers when they were caught & stopped trying to "confiscate" Ukranian weapons from a barracks. Refused orders my @rse.


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    #220
    bobcoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭bobcoffee


    no haven't seen the video and still lost on what Russian Special forces has to do with Kiev ordering Ukraine Special forces. (which is probly false and not worth a convo)
    Russia is no golden boy in this at all.
    But our news is spreading around a lot of bull at the same time all we are getting is scraps from here and there.

    Russia, just dropped it troops, went hell no we want a solution, so far that we know of hasn't killed anyone.

    the Allies when invading a country are quite different, lots of bombs, lots of civilians deaths, lots of torture.

    anyone remember watching "war p0rn" live on the news as "shock an awe" was in play.
    nothing discussed me more then to see that.
    how is it Russia is evil no matter what but western world can do the same and it is ok.
    is that not a bit 2 faced?


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    #221
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    What does Bobcoffee want the EU to do???


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    #222
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    monty_python wrote: »
    looks like 3am could be a very interesting time in this conflict

    http://news.sky.com/story/1220272/ukraine-russia-delivers-assault-storm-deadline

    People in Sheffield are apparently s****ing themselves
    :D



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    #223
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    bobcoffee wrote: »
    doesn't make sense for Russia to be doing it.
    Since they get nothing from it

    I lol'd at that.

    Potentially they may get all of Crimea, securing their only warm water naval base. They may get Eastern parts of Ukraine but that's doubtful. They will have caused great instability in a country on their border looking for closer links with EU and NATO. That gives them influence and the ability to keep "The West" at bay in that neighbourhood. They also have Ukraine by the knackers financially, as well as militarily.

    They get what Russia always wants, control.

    I'd say they're getting quite a lot.


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    #224
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Sky News is currently reporting that Russian troops have seized a Ferry port in the Ukraine and are now moved into the Ukraine..


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    #225
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    I lol'd at that.

    Potentially they may get all of Crimea, securing their only warm water naval base.

    People keep mentioning this, and I remember it from my history lessons way back when. But what's the big deal though, Russia have a substantial coastline on the Black Sea, surely it'd be easier and less costly to just build a new naval base than to go to war (potentially) to keep the one they have?


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    #226
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Manach wrote: »
    From what I remember for the Cold war days, the Poles were some of the best regarded of the Warsaw pact forces. Given that the memory of the 1920s war with Russia where they were successful with only a scratch force, then this is a rather interesting step.

    I heard the same of the East Germans? smaller motivated but still well equipped, well motivated forces have defeated larger forces of less substance in the past. Russia has no designs on Poland or even western Ukraine. If that happens its time to**** your pants.
    bobcoffee wrote: »
    no haven't seen the video and still lost on what Russian Special forces has to do with Kiev ordering Ukraine Special forces. (which is probly false and not worth a convo)
    Russia is no golden boy in this at all.
    But our news is spreading around a lot of bull at the same time all we are getting is scraps from here and there.

    Russia, just dropped it troops, went hell no we want a solution, so far that we know of hasn't killed anyone.

    the Allies when invading a country are quite different, lots of bombs, lots of civilians deaths, lots of torture.

    anyone remember watching "war p0rn" live on the news as "shock an awe" was in play.
    nothing discussed me more then to see that.
    how is it Russia is evil no matter what but western world can do the same and it is ok.
    is that not a bit 2 faced?

    Heard Gilmore? sounded like anyway, on the radio condemning this.
    I dont recal hearing such condemnation from him before about Libya, Iraq, same with Hague.
    Not that Im condoning what Russia has done, Id consider the Ukrainian forces have a right to repel boarders but seem undecided/divided themselves about what to do.
    Bases being surrounded, sounds like they have their heads up their asses, smaller forces have kicked larger militaries before, when organised and motivated, not that Im suggesting force is the best option here either. Hard to see why they were still in their barracks and not equipped and on the ground when the Russians started posturing on the border, maybe they dont know if they can rely on their own forces?

    If Russia takes a military or hard line, then this may only serve to push Ukraine further away more quickly, but how it doesnt spell the end for Russian bases on Ukrainian soil, surely it must. You cant have a foreign nation have large numbers of miltitary forces and equipment on or inside your border and not consider that it can be used against you on the say so of its masters.

    Im trying to see what the possible other situation here is? extreme sabre rattling but no actual application of military might, push the EU to take a supportive financial stance and get Russia off the hook economically? roll back forces to starting lines, stating objective achieved but keep pre invasion forces in place, or with the view of maintaining the military bases in The Crimea and no withdrawal timeline or plan, hence maintain military control over the Crimea indefinitely.


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    #227
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    wexie wrote: »
    People keep mentioning this, and I remember it from my history lessons way back when. But what's the big deal though, Russia have a substantial coastline on the Black Sea, surely it'd be easier and less costly to just build a new naval base than to go to war (potentially) to keep the one they have?

    Costly exercise I'd say, building an entirely new port and all the infrastructure to go with it. As for war, I don't see that happening, I mean look at the other side, Obama, Cameron & Clegg? Hollande? Really? Merkel and the Poles would be another kettle of fish, but the rest have as much steel in them as a rubber duck.


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    #228
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Costly exercise I'd say, building an entirely new port and all the infrastructure to go with it. As for war, I don't see that happening, I mean look at the other side, Obama, Cameron & Clegg? Hollande? Really? Merkel and the Poles would be another kettle of fish, but the rest have as much steel in them as a rubber duck.

    This is as much an excuse to hold onto the naval base indefinitely.


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    #229
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Costly exercise I'd say, building an entirely new port and all the infrastructure to go with it. As for war, I don't see that happening, I mean look at the other side, Obama, Cameron & Clegg? Hollande? Really? Merkel and the Poles would be another kettle of fish, but the rest have as much steel in them as a rubber duck.

    hmmmyeah, but even so, they should be prepared for it. I get the whole history thing but I'd think if it was just about a naval base then they could use one of their existing ports. They have a large port just up the coast from Sochi, would have seemed less hassle.


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    #230
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    cerastes wrote: »
    This is as much an excuse to hold onto the naval base indefinitely.

    Yes, there are added extras for the Russian side if they play their cards right though. Having influence in Ukraine is a very big thing for them.
    wexie wrote: »
    hmmmyeah, but even so, they should be prepared for it. I get the whole history thing but I'd think if it was just about a naval base then they could use one of their existing ports. They have a large port just up the coast from Sochi, would have seemed less hassle.

    Who will put it up to Putin though? While the Ukrainian armed forces have been remarkably restrained, how reliable are they? Ukraine is broke for a start, who else will want to send troops in to this war? I don't see many chomping at the bit for a go at "Ivan".


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    #231
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,683 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Maybe Putin feared that if he didn't act in one way or the other, he'd be given the heave at home by his colleagues in what was the Politburo. All things considered, the way things could go, I'd prefer the title of this thread to be the limit of any conflict


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    #232
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    Costly exercise I'd say, building an entirely new port and all the infrastructure to go with it. As for war, I don't see that happening, I mean look at the other side, Obama, Cameron & Clegg? Hollande? Really? Merkel and the Poles would be another kettle of fish, but the rest have as much steel in them as a rubber duck.
    Last thing we need is posturing of wannabe alpha males.


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    #233
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Thinking about it, it may be better for Russia that Crimea stay within Ukraine. As it would allow more pro Russian voices in Ukraine elections. Once they could secure the future of their naval base, and keep Kiev Govt relatively weak.


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    #234
    Conmaicne Mara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭Conmaicne Mara


    Icepick wrote: »
    Last thing we need is posturing of wannabe alpha males.

    They're not even wannabes.

    It would be interesting to see the Russian reaction if European forces started mobilising though. Don't want to see it happen but I wonder what would Putins next move be if tanks appeared on trains in Germany, Poland and a few other states heading towards Ukraine border, invited by that Govt to "secure the peace" so to speak.


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    #235
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 36,073 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    The Ukrainian forces were been directed by the former President , and the President was under Putins control... so they will give up easily and let the Russsia forces take over their bases with no fight.
    It's what happens when the Russians try to take Kiev that will be interesting. Do they even intend to?
    I doubt it


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    #236
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    bobcoffee wrote: »
    man is someone starting a war with russia?
    If you believed any of the Russian state-controlled propaganda outlets, yes, you could be mistaken for thinking that.

    The truth is a little simpler - a large, aggressive nation has invaded a weak, non-aggressive nation because, well, it wants to recover the face lost by the dismissal of Putin's immensely corrupt friend in Kiev. The invasion also plays well to Putin's well-developed inferiority complex as well as the millions of uniformed, gagging xenophobes back home, currently plastered on a high-octane mix of nationalism and vodka.

    Little Pootle and his pocket parliament don't need any further justification for war.


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    #237
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    The Ukrainian forces were been directed by the former President , and the President was under Putins control... so they will give up easily and let the Russsia forces take over their bases with no fight.
    It's what happens when the Russians try to take Kiev that will be interesting. Do they even intend to?
    I doubt it

    I know the EU and the US are threatening Russia, but Putin has more aces up his sleeve, especially with the EU. He could shut off the gas line to Europe which would be terrible.

    He should have no interest in going to Kiev though. I mean this is not good for Europe or the US, because there going to have to give Ukraine billions in bail out money, because they are in serious economic trouble. So I'm not sure anyone can say they have the upper hand here. Ukraine are in big trouble either way if you ask me.


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    #238
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    robindch wrote: »
    If you believed any of the Russian state-controlled propaganda outlets, yes, you could be mistaken for thinking that.

    USA is by far the worst state control propaganda on the planet.


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    #239
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Conmaicne Mara wrote: »
    [...] I wonder what would Putins next move be if tanks appeared on trains in Germany, Poland and a few other states heading towards Ukraine border [...]
    Poland announced yesterday that it has moved tanks and troops to the Ukrainian border:

    http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-troop-invasion-encircles-crimeas-capital-as-ukraine-pm-declares-the-nation-to-be-on-brink-of-disaster/story-fndir2ev-1226843109609

    I don't believe Germany has made any possibly-relevant movements of men or materiel.


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    #240
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    Conas wrote: »
    USA is by far the worst state control propaganda on the planet.

    Explain to the class.


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    #241
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Conas wrote: »
    USA is by far the worst state control propaganda on the planet.
    ...a comment suggesting that you know little or nothing of either the USA or Russia.

    Here's the main Russian state-controlled "news" outlet. It's a bit like Fox News, save that it's more obviously makey-uppey, and good heavens, that's saying something:

    http://www.rt.com


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