Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Gatling

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Is he working for the kremlin to say such things? Doubt it.

Do you understand how russian media works
Go onto Moscow times and search criticism of government policy or valdamir putin or any government official .

Then Google journalists deaths in Russia

And the the same for RT who have had news anchors resign midbroad cast citing pressure from the kremlin and pro Kremlin editors to only put there spin out .

Personally I don't believe there's nearly 1 million displaced consider the so called horrendous conditions and near constant shelling that's going on months deaths are reported as less than 4000 .

Fig of Fallacy

Gatling wrote: »

Do you understand how russian media works
Go onto Moscow times and search criticism of government policy or valdamir putin or any government official .

No ones doubts that. Problem is people think that the western press is not guilty of the same thing. Truth is the western press are just better at it by miles. They have it honed to perfection.

InTheTrees

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

I agree that theres propaganda on boths sides and that figures are being massaged both ways, perhaps.

The huge difference being that in the west you can get both sides and decide for yourself, while thats not true in russia.

InTheTrees

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

No ones doubts that. Problem is people think that the western press is not guilty of the same thing. Truth is the western press are just better at it by miles. They have it honed to perfection.

Except you're assuming the "western press" is some singular entity, but in fact in encompasses everything from the Communist Party Daily, or LGBT News to Fox News or the Guardian.

But in Russia the media, such as it is, is subject to strict censorship.

EVen boards.ie, because it has over 3000 subscribers, would be considered a Media Outlet in Russia and subject to state scrutiny.

Gatling

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

No ones doubts that. Problem is people think that the western press is not guilty of the same thing. Truth is the western press are just better at it by miles. They have it honed to perfection.

You will find plenty of news media here the UK ,Europe, America and you see the press regularly taken on the government' s presidents and prime ministers .
Yet no mass killing or threats to cause on air resignations.

Russia is the single most dangerous place in the world to be a journalist .

So independent free press releases isn't happening.

Why is there next to news about ukraine or Crimea in Russia media consider they sent thousands of troops to both

Icepick

mmmcake wrote: »

To paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies "They would, wouldn't they."
Its Ukraine today tv, and in their description of the video, "Amateur footage appears to show Russian army deep inside Ukraine".
Key words are amateur and appears. So there is no way to know if it is real.

We should be asking to see quality satellite evidence from NATO not unverified youtube clips.
How hard could it be to show the world some Google Earth level quality photos of russian tanks rolling over the ukraine step.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05

Fig of Fallacy

No one is saying Russia is a great place to live.

In the EU/US in relation to foreign policy there is no debate. Only a constant one sided mantra and then attacking of anyone who begs to differ.

Oh, and two words: Edward Snowden.

InTheTrees

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Oh, and two words: Edward Snowden.

If Edward Snowden had been a russian he would have been dead long ago.

AbusesToilets

aloyisious wrote: »

I like mmmcake's ref (at 0037) to satellite images. I've been wondering how none have come to light proving/disproving ground force presence and movements. I'd imagine that live-feed or fresh photo-int would be liked by the combatants.

Re the OSCE presence at the Russian checkpoints (presume border-posts on Russian side - as Donetsk is the name of Russian town as well as Ukrainian city) I don't really see them as being definitive proof that Russian forces are not too-ing & fro-ing across the border. I don't know what the border-structure is like along it's length that would ensure armour etc could not cross at unapproved points without being seen. Is it like the Berlin Wall structure, where a breach would be clearly seen?

Are you and others deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin admitted he sent Russian troops into Crimea (before the "referendum") to facilitate the efforts of the separatists. With that admission, you find it improbable that the same scenario would be playing out in the East? Then there is the strong evidence of Russian Mechanised units crossing the border, captured Russian paratroopers, satellite imagery of Russian made artillery pieces firing in the Ukraine, high end Russian AA weapons being used to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft (without even getting into the MH-17 situation).

BlaasForRafa

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Oh, and two words: Edward Snowden.

It Snowden had been Russian and did what he did to the russian state, he'd be dead already.


Two words for you: Alexander Litvinenko

Fig of Fallacy

InTheTrees wrote: »

If Edward Snowden had been a russian he would have been dead long ago.

If he stayed in the west he would either be dead or locked up in some military torture facility.

AbusesToilets

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

If he stayed in the west he would either be dead or locked up in some military torture facility.

He would be in jail for breaking the law.

Fig of Fallacy

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He would be in jail for breaking the law.

And the NSA? Will they be thrown into jail for their criminal activity?

AbusesToilets

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

And the NSA? Will they be thrown into jail for their criminal activity?

Hopefully those responsible for violating the law will get punished appropriately.

Fig of Fallacy

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Hopefully those responsible for violating the law will get punished appropriately.

I wish i had your optimism.

Gatling

Remember this incident at all

10 years ago leading candidate in Ukrainian election
pro-West Ukrainian presidential candidate Viktor Yushenko, running against pro-Kremlin candidate Viktor Yanukovich, was poisoned by suspected dioxins, making him ill and leaving his face severely disfigure

Seems to be a familiar sequence of events here

** forgot to add the other candidate that year
Viktor Yanukovich the same deposed Viktor Yanukovich that started this mess .

One candidate got poisoned .
One candidate (pro Europe) who was elected got arrested and found guilty of fraud involving two gas companies one happened to be Gazprom in which many observers believe was politically motivated .
Seems Viktor Yanukovich has had some kind of guardian angel in politics. **

aloyisious

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Are you and others deliberately ignoring the fact that Putin admitted he sent Russian troops into Crimea (before the "referendum") to facilitate the efforts of the separatists. With that admission, you find it improbable that the same scenario would be playing out in the East? Then there is the strong evidence of Russian Mechanised units crossing the border, captured Russian paratroopers, satellite imagery of Russian made artillery pieces firing in the Ukraine, high end Russian AA weapons being used to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft (without even getting into the MH-17 situation).

No, I am not ignoring the presence of Russian troops in Crimea before the referendum. Russian troops have been in the Crimea for decades as part of the USSR and lately the Federation. The Russian Navy forced down Ukrainian forces in Crimea and Sevastopol, even sinking ships and mining Ukraine's navy access to sea. The images of the above and of the Ukraine Crimean Air base comdr leading his men off his base while under verbal and physical attack are only some months ago in 2014.

Ref the fighting between the Kiev Gov'r forces, the separatists and Russia, I just feel the urge to be a doubting thomas to both sides claims and counter-claims, so I'd like satellite-imagery. Photos and films of troop & vehicle moves made on the ground are not so reliable as the separatists have undoubtably seized Ukrainian military hardware. Also, due to the Federation and (old) USSR Warsaw-pact forces using the same commonality vehicles and weaponry, there may be the chance that one side may film it's vehicles (armour and wheeled) and claim it's the O/P's in illicit operations. I don't in any way think it improbable that an old KGB-hand would NOT take the old routes to achieve a desired end.

AbusesToilets

aloyisious wrote: »

No, I am not ignoring the presence of Russian troops in Crimea before the referendum. Russian troops have been in the Crimea for decades as part of the USSR and lately the Federation.

Ref the fighting between the Kiev Gov'r forces, the separatists and Russia, I just feel the urge to be a doubting thomas to both sides claims and counter-claims, so I'd like satellite-imagery. Photos and films of troop & vehicle moves made on the ground are not so reliable as the separatists have undoubtably seized Ukrainian military hardware. Also, due to the Federation and (old) USSR Warsaw-pact forces using the same commonality vehicles and weaponry, there may be the chance that one side may film it's vehicles (armour and wheeled) and claim it's the O/P's in illicit operations.

That's a nice attempt to sidestep the Russia involvement in the Crimea. There were Naval force stationed there, with agreed upon restrictions on there movement. Putin made specific mention of infantry and special troops/ forces being involved (details of which were recounted in RT, so no claims of western bias can be thrown out for that).

As to the doubts about Russian presence in the East, do you think the Ukraine sent armored columns into Russian territory, only to have them turn around and re-enter the Ukrainian border as an IO stunt?

Was the Ukrainian military so accommodating that they showed the Separatists how to use the advanced AA missile systems that you think they left behind? Systems that were then used to shoot down a number of Ukrainian aircraft.

Russian Paratroopers out for a walk, accidentally find themselves well inside of the Ukraine?

What's killing all of these Russian soldiers that are dying recently, the families of whom are openly questioning the Russian government over?

WakeUp

it wasnt just champagne and gourmet dinners the recent gatherers at the Nato gathering appear to have been indulging themselves in. nope looks like some sort of consensus as to how to "help" has been reached by some of the Nato members for that non-Nato member and all round joke of a place Ukraine...

Poroshenko’s Aide Names NATO Countries That Agree to Supply Weapons to Kiev:

KIEV, September 7 (RIA Novosti) - Advisor to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, Yuri Lutsenko said that agreements reached at the NATO summit in Wales to supply advanced weapons to Ukraine from several countries, including the United States, France and Poland.
"Security. A number of agreements were reached at the NATO summit on the Western military advisers and modern arms shipments from the United States, France, Italy, Poland, and Norway," Lutsenko said Sunday on Facebook.
Earlier, in the margins of the NATO summit in Wales on September 4-5, the Ukrainian president said that the alliance would adopt a declaration on military and technical assistance to Kiev. Later, in an interview with BBC, Poroshenko confirmed that some NATO members promised to supply precision weapons to Ukraine, but refused to name them.
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140907/192715393/Poroshenkos-Aide-Names-NATO-Countries-that-Agree-to-Supply.html?

that would be a serious escalation depending on how you view it .Winter technically begins here at home sometime around the winter solstice in December but the cold and wet season kicks in before then end of October/November. that isnt far away. I hope the people in this country who are tasked with being on their toes are doing just that and paying attention. actually paying attention.

The Energy Stakes of the Ukrainian Crisis:

The Ukraine crisis has put the interdependence between the West, the EU and the Russian federation in the limelight. A further deterioration of the relationship between them could have disastrous results for both, as the stakes at hand are high and of strategic value.

The first victim is the present-day suspension of the South Stream project, which would be the only way of transporting gas into the EU markets without having to rely on the Ukrainian transmission system. Any disruption of the flow of gas through Ukraine's territory would present a heavy blow for countries such as Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and also Italy, and Austria that will be forced to source LNG from international spot markets (up to 70% of today’s prices).

Needless to say, LNG is not an alternative but an emergency solution since there is no infrastructure capable of absorbing and replacing incoming Russian gas flow, according to official calculations by the aforementioned countries.

The Greek Energy Ministry recently relayed that its national company DEPA has approximately 20 days of reserves in case of a cut of the flow of Russian gas and depending on winter weather conditions, additional LNG shipments will be needed that eventually would be paid for by the customers via higher bills at a time when the local industry's competitiveness is already badly hurt by the ongoing economic crisis.

Regarding the prospect of a pan-European natural gas economic shock due to a stop of the flow of Russian gas in Europe, the Institute of Energy Economics of the University of Cologne assessed the following: Finland would be a country first and most harshly affected since 100% of its gas comes from Russia and it does not have substantial storage facilities. An embargo of more than 90 days will strongly impact Poland, Turkey, Germany, Austria, Balkan countries and Baltic states. A nine month stoppage will affect the whole Continent with severe breakdowns of the system, huge amounts of emergency LNG supplies that will skyrocket the prices - and in a global spot market scale. Of course Gazprom would lose its best customer base and the Russian budget will probably suffer a 8-13% decrease in yearly revenues. Nevertheless, should the situation reach that point, it would simply mean a warlike situation in Europe is rooted, thus budgetary considerations will be cast aside by all sides, and history in the region will turn backwards, perhaps one hundred years.
http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/energy-stakes-urkaine-crisis?

WakeUp

Russian Prime minister Medvedev is talking "asymmetrical" responses if further Western sanctions are imposed on the motherland...

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow will respond "asymmetrically" to new sanctions over the Ukraine crisis, possibly targeting flights over Russia, if its Western partners press on with "the temptation to use force in international relations", Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said.
Blaming the West for damaging the Russian economy by triggering several rounds of "stupid" sanctions, Medvedev underlined Moscow's belief it is occupying the higher ground in the worst confrontation with the West since the Cold War.
Russia may have been too patient in responding to sanctions imposed so far by the United States and European Union over Moscow's role in Ukraine, he told the Russian daily Vedomosti. That mistake would not be repeated.
"If there are sanctions related to the energy sector, or further restrictions on Russia's financial sector, we will have to respond asymmetrically," he said in an interview published on Monday, adding the airlines of "friendly countries" were allowed to fly over Russia.
"If Western carriers have to bypass our airspace, this could drive many struggling airlines into bankruptcy. This is not the way to go. We just hope our partners realise this at some point."

Calling sanctions "a stupid idea", Medvedev said economic measures often became political and hinted that Russia could rethink its commitment to global security cooperation.
"In politics things are often asymmetrical and there are worse things than economic restrictions, such as possible cracks in the global security system. I hope this isn't what our Western partners want and that the people calling the shots aren't crazy," he said.
https://in.news.yahoo.com/russia-respond-asymmetrically-sanctions-medvedev-071409324--finance.html?

not sure about anyone holding the higher ground in all of this though stupid is as stupid does Im afraid. sanctions are in no ones interest. not ours not theirs not anyones. Merkel needs the hold the line and keep our sh1t together shes a smart woman. I notice Germany is not on the list of potential Nato members willing to give the Ukrainians weapons. and Ive just read about a couple of countries coming out and denying the Ukrainian claim. its still early in the morning maybe as the day rolls on this particular claim of Kiev can be proven/disproven. maybe the Kiev crew have been passing the crackpipe around again. some of the things they come out and think are a good idea you do have to wonder about them.

Gatling

WakeUp wrote: »

Russian Prime minister Medvedev is talking "asymmetrical" responses if further Western sanctions are imposed on the motherland...

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow will respond "asymmetrically" to new sanctions over the Ukraine crisis, possibly targeting flights over Russia, if its Western partners press on with "the temptation to use force in international relations", Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said.


not sure about anyone holding the higher ground in all of this though stupid is as stupid does Im afraid. sanctions are in no ones interest. not ours not theirs not anyones. Merkel needs the hold the line and keep our sh1t together shes a smart woman. I notice Germany is not on the list of potential Nato members willing to give the Ukrainians weapons. and Ive just read about a couple of countries coming out and denying the Ukrainian claim. its still early in the morning maybe as the day rolls on this particular claim of Kiev can be proven/disproven. maybe the Kiev crew have been passing the crackpipe around again. some of the things they come out and think are a good idea you do have to wonder about them.

So budget airlines thay fly certain routes will increase prices short term ,
Not like the infrastructure isnt already in place to allow airlines to completely bypass russian airspace ,
Remember the little cold war well all flights were barred over russia and airlines got bigger and flew further ,

Does it matter it Germany isnt mention in a press titbit when it comes to countries supplying new weapons to the Ukraine government ,
not really .

Its no problem for russia to supply wespons and more importantly troops and heavy weapons No ?

Weve gone from nazi facists russian baby eating junta in kiev to crack heads,

Wonder what happened in the days when there was no gas heating in some countries oh yes people just carried on

WakeUp

Gatling wrote: »

So budget airlines thay fly certain routes will increase prices short term ,

just budget airlines? or all airlines. or just airlines that arent doing financially well. and what happens if people arent prepared to pay the extra money. or if the airline cant afford the extra fuel required for some routes they fly.

Not like the infrastructure isnt already in place to allow airlines to completely bypass russian airspace ,

im assuming you mean airports. and this is relevant how....

Remember the little cold war well all flights were barred over russia and airlines got bigger and flew further ,

did they now. that doesnt mean that struggling airlines if indeed the Russians are talking sense can survive if such a thing happens. or does it in your head.

Does it matter it Germany isnt mention in a press titbit when it comes to countries supplying new weapons to the Ukraine government ,
not really .

yep.

Its no problem for russia to supply wespons and more importantly troops and heavy weapons No ?

why are you even asking me that I didnt say anything about that.

Weve gone from nazi facists russian baby eating junta in kiev to crack heads,

have we now. who is weve?....

Wonder what happened in the days when there was no gas heating in some countries oh yes people just carried on

which days would these be now?..specifically...

gandalf

Remember if Russia bans flights from its airspace, the EU and US will probably follow suit with Russia airlines. That will have a far more immediate effect on those carriers. At this stage Medvedev and Putin internally have to talk like this given the strong man "cult of personality" that they have developed. Is a round of tougher sanctions going to hurt the EU economically, yes it is but I would prefer hurt of that type rather than have to send EU citizens to fight in a war further down the line. Russia need to be taught that if you destablise your neighbours borders then you cannot be accepted and act like a normal nation, you become a pariah. I really hope the US and EU keep their resolve and push through the harsher sanctions today.

I fully expect the Russian forces to make a push for Mariupol before the end of this week, that is one of the primary objectives of the Russia plan, provide a land corridor to the Crimea.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

Remember if Russia bans flights from its airspace, the EU and US will probably follow suit with Russia airlines. That will have a far more immediate effect on those carriers. At this stage Medvedev and Putin internally have to talk like this given the strong man "cult of personality" that they have developed. Is a round of tougher sanctions going to hurt the EU economically, yes it is but I would prefer hurt of that type rather than have to send EU citizens to fight in a war further down the line. Russia need to be taught that if you destablise your neighbours borders then you cannot be accepted and act like a normal nation, you become a pariah. I really hope the US and EU keep their resolve and push through the harsher sanctions today.

I fully expect the Russian forces to make a push for Mariupol before the end of this week, that is one of the primary objectives of the Russia plan, provide a land corridor to the Crimea.

you may just get your wish Gandalf though I personally think this is an insane thing to do. and it could backfire spectacularly. reading some of the contributions on this thread, not from yourself particularly, but from others Im of the opinion some people really dont understand the possible ramifications and consequences of doing something like this. sanctions will not bully the Russians into anything. if this keeps going we are all going to lose. it looks like they are going after the Russian energy companies. this is going to hurt. I really hope people are prepared for what might be coming.

Europe Goes "All In": Will Sanction Rosneft, Gazprom Neft And Transneft

Until this moment, the main reason why everyone mostly dismissed Europe's sanctions against Russia is that despite all its pompous rhetoric, Europe consistently refused to hit Russia where it would hurt: its energy titans Gazprom, Rosneft And Transfneft. The reason is simple: by imposing sanctions on these core energy exporters, Europe would directly threaten the stability of its own energy imports (Russia accounts for up to 30% of German gas imports), and as winter approaches with every passing day, playing with the energy status quo would seem like economic suicide. This all appears to have changed last Friday, when as the FT reports from a leaked copy, Europe's latest sanctions round will boldly go where Europe has never dared to go before, and impose sanctions on the big three: Rosneft, Gazprom Neft and Transneft.

Peter Spiegel ✔ @SpiegelPeter
Follow
Leaked copy of Fri night #Russia sanctions deal confirms 3 energy cos to be hit by #EU capital markets ban: Rosneft, Gazprom Neft, Transneft
3:48 PM - 7 Sep 2014

Peter Spiegel ✔ @SpiegelPeter
Follow
Am told Monday sanctions announcement to include clarification that repayments of loans by #EU states to #Russia still allowed. #Cyprus

This is what is known in game theory terms as a major defection round.

It also means that suddenly the stakes for Russia, and thus Europe, just got all too real, as Putin will now have no choice but to really ramp up the retaliatory escalation, which following the food ban can only mean one thing: a staggered reduction in gas flow to Europe

It also means something else: recall that it was just ten days ago when we reported that Gazprom would begins accepting payment for oil in Ruble and Yuan.

If today's news is confirmed, Europe's dramatic shift in sanctions strategy means that Europe's embargo of both the US Dollar and the Euro will accelerate as Russia further intensifies its shift away from both the west and the petrodollar. The only and clear winner here: China, which will almost certainly step in to provide the funding Russia needs however on Beijing's terms in effect making the symbiotic link between Russia and China even stronger, forcing Moscow to rely almost exclusively on China for trade and funding relations, and suddenly give Xi Jinping all the trump cards.

What China's president will do, now that he has all the leverage in the world to call shots both to the West, the East, and of course, Africa, remains unknown, although those thousands of tons of gold imports that mysteriously enter the country and are never heard from again, may provide a hint.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/europe-goes-all-will-sanction-rosneft-gazprom-neft-and-transneft

aloyisious

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That's a nice attempt to sidestep the Russia involvement in the Crimea. There were Naval force stationed there, with agreed upon restrictions on there movement. Putin made specific mention of infantry and special troops/ forces being involved (details of which were recounted in RT, so no claims of western bias can be thrown out for that).

As to the doubts about Russian presence in the East, do you think the Ukraine sent armored columns into Russian territory, only to have them turn around and re-enter the Ukrainian border as an IO stunt?

Was the Ukrainian military so accommodating that they showed the Separatists how to use the advanced AA missile systems that you think they left behind? Systems that were then used to shoot down a number of Ukrainian aircraft.

Russian Paratroopers out for a walk, accidentally find themselves well inside of the Ukraine?

What's killing all of these Russian soldiers that are dying recently, the families of whom are openly questioning the Russian government over?

Russian Naval vessels also include Marines as on-board personnel. The Marines are not rear-echelon forces.

One video of armour and truck movements look's like another when the viewer does not know the area personally. Videos which clearly and definitively prove that the ground areas where the vehicle movements occurred are border areas with fencing, customs posts, border police posts, road-signs and all things identifying the Russian/Ukraine border zone would help prove the trueness of the videos.

The AA systems weaponry could be explained by the rapid advance of separatists who naturally don't plan to do what the Ukraine forces want, but show up where they are not expected, and the unexpected confusion/lack of stay-and-fight morale amongst Ukraine forces. I'd imagine that demoralized troops would cut and run, abandoning heavy weaponry likely to hinder their retreat, if they heard rumours that along with vengeful irregular forces coming their way were Russian Spetsnaz forces. I just don't know exactly what class of AA weaponry Ukraine forces had in their armoury. I think I'd be right in believing that the separatists would have seen service in the Ukraine forces, and probably within Warsaw-pact forces as well.

Re the Para's and deaths/graves of Russian soldiers, that would be natural as undoubtably Russia has ground forces operating within Ukraine. Even if they were only ordered to do "spotter-duty" passing back info to Russian Command back across the border, the troops used in such tasks are generally higher-grade specialist forces, capable of operating without the support normal ground forces rely on. They'd have to suffer losses, live or dead.

We've had loads of accidental crossings here in our border region, both Irish and British troops straying across an unfortified-unfenced border until Red/green-cream phone booths were seen and the map-reading "errors" identified.

One thing that surprised me when I went looking for info on what comprised the Warsaw-pact forces was this nugget contained within the History section (Para 5) of https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWarsaw_Pact&ei=HowNVJnSH7Db7Aab9oGADA&usg=AFQjCNFAVXiL8Y4KSpHkQMzXkk2GFnTzyQ; ---
Emblematic was the position of British General Hastings Ismay, supporter of NATO expansion, who said that NATO "must grow until the whole free world gets under one umbrella."[25] He opposed the request to join NATO made by the USSR in 1954[26] saying that "the Soviet request to join NATO is like an unrepentant burglar requesting to join the police force".[27].

oscarBravo

WakeUp wrote: »

...I personally think this is an insane thing to do. and it could backfire spectacularly. reading some of the contributions on this thread, not from yourself particularly, but from others Im of the opinion some people really dont understand the possible ramifications and consequences of doing something like this. sanctions will not bully the Russians into anything.

Your continued argument is that we shouldn't sanction Russia because those sanctions will likely have negative consequences for Europe. That's a persuasive argument only if its context is the belief that allowing Russia to do whatever the hell it wants is guaranteed to be consequence-free.

Your entire argument is built on the belief that Russia won't invade the Baltic states, because they are NATO members. I don't know that I'd have that much faith in the rationality of the Putin regime, but leaving that aside, you are basically saying that we should allow Russia to annex Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Mongolia... consequence-free?

Or is it just Ukraine you think we should allow the annexation of without consequence?

WakeUp

oscarBravo wrote: »

Your continued argument is that we shouldn't sanction Russia because those sanctions will likely have negative consequences for Europe. That's a persuasive argument only if its context is the belief that allowing Russia to do whatever the hell it wants is guaranteed to be consequence-free.

Your entire argument is built on the belief that Russia won't invade the Baltic states, because they are NATO members. I don't know that I'd have that much faith in the rationality of the Putin regime, but leaving that aside, you are basically saying that we should allow Russia to annex Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Mongolia... consequence-free?

Or is it just Ukraine you think we should allow the annexation of without consequence?

The sanctions are having negative consequences for Europe as it is I dont think there is much likely about it they are. the numbers say so. my argument is we should not potentially cut off our nose to spite our face. without Russian energy Europe is in trouble, thats an understatement. a more accurate description would be to say we are phucked. if you truly believe the Russians are going to attack a Nato country you really shouldnt be here talking to me you should be preparing yourself for thermonuclear war. I dont believe the Russians are suicidal. they had what they perceive as their interests be it their naval base and gas incomes from their pipelines and what they perceive as Nato/EU pushing right up to their border. whether you or I agree or like it or approve of it doesnt really matter. thats hows the Russians view it, that is what they are thinking. Im not sure how you are figuring that im saying its ok for Russia to move on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Mongolia..how do you figure that actually Im just curious? the cold hard reality of the situation is we need Russia more than we need Ukraine. doesnt mean I agree with what is happening. thats just how it is. and Ukraine is neither a member of the EU or Nato even though both are knee deep in all of this. there is no military or sanction solution to this situation. Im saying it insane to sanction the very companies and people who are supplying us with our energy. that isnt a smart thing to do whatever the Russians have done. its not a smart move.

mmmcake

gandalf wrote: »

Russia need to be taught that if you destablise your neighbours borders then you cannot be accepted and act like a normal nation, you become a pariah.

I fully expect the Russian forces to make a push for Mariupol before the end of this week, that is one of the primary objectives of the Russia plan, provide a land corridor to the Crimea.

Has the USA not destabilised many countries, why are those actions acceptable?

The land corridor to Crimea is nonsense, if Mariupol falls into the separatists hands it is still over 200 km to the nearest land bridge to Crimea.
Why are posters going on about the Mariupol land bridge, its does not exist.
Do they just repeat what they read on the internet and not check any facts?

mmmcake

I see Germany has told NATO it will not be raising its defence budget. Either it dont think Russia is a threat or it don't have the money.
If Germany can't afford to raise defence spending what hope is there for the rest of the EU members who are worse financial condition.

The sanctions are a non runner, they will announce them but not implement them, be dead in the water before the week is out.
Remember Czech republic and Slovakia has stated they will veto any new sanctions.

InTheTrees

mmmcake wrote: »

Has the USA not destabilised many countries, why are those actions acceptable?

??

They're not.

And anyway even if they were does that mean Russia gets a free pass to invade its neighbours because we disapprove of US foreign policy?

??