Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

BoJack Horseman

mmmcake wrote: »

Which part?

I suppose your taking 'giving a bloody nose' literally as a declaration of pan-continental war!

Morpheus

Jump to conclusions much?

Firstly, I was advocating further sanctions. in reply to a prev comment suggesting that sanctions were akin to taking gloves off.

Secondly, and not that its any of your business, but I have already taken an oath and should some form of an actual shooting war be insanely engaged in, by our illustrious (war mongering im sure) leaders, I can safely and sadly say that I would most likely have been shipped out long before the cream cooled on your mochafrappachino as you were [seeing how were all jumping to conclusions] - watching the opening salvos of WW3 on your social media feed in your local hipster café. (its easy to make unfounded assumptions)

Like the ones made by the Russians and some of us in the west about 100% of the Ukranians being U.S. led and armed puppets and far right Nazis.

Or by those of us in the west who love to think that 100% of the pro sepetarists are all locals from Eastern Ukraine, - not a cossack nor a russian soldier in their ranks to be sure to be sure.

mmmcake

To me " giving a bloody nose" is war.
"Hurt them in their pocket" is sanctions.

He wants a war with Russia, is he insane, many here are called Russian propagandist for daring to suggest that Russia is not the Demon the western media makes it out to be.
What would you call someone who advocates a war with Russia? A pentagon propagandist or just insane?

BoJack Horseman

mmmcake wrote: »

To me " giving a bloody nose" is war.
"Hurt them in their pocket" is sanctions.

He wants a war with Russia, is he insane, many here are called Russian propagandist for daring to suggest that Russia is not the Demon the western media makes it out to be.
What would you call someone who advocates a war with Russia? A pentagon propagandist or just insane?

Having read a couple a fair few pages, I'm struggling to identify the post explicitly calling for war with Russia.

Perhaps you can show one?

(I'm hoping your not making the schoolboy error of confusing a post calling for greater protection/defence capabilities as a call for outright war)

Gatling

So much for democracy and free speech

mmmcake

"Useful idiot is a term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause."

So in the same press release announcing the over throw of the Yanukovych government and the appointment of the hand picked USA yes man Yatsenyuk, we are told that USA VP Joe Bidens son, Hunter Biden has joined the board of the largest Ukraine gas producer Burisma Holdings.

Burisma Holdings has the rights to extract oil and gas from east Ukraine. Only if it remains under the control of the USA approved government in Kiev. If the east becomes independent Burisma has no rights to gas or oil in the east.

Of course young Hunter got on the board entirely without help didn’t he, and plenty of useful idiots want to sanction Russia and keep their oaths and go fight Russia if it comes to war, all to keep the elite in the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

Red Nissan

Gatling wrote: »

So much for democracy and free speech

You are free to say anything you like, anytime you like, as long as I agree with it and you don't wake me up!

BlaasForRafa

mmmcake wrote: »

Of course young Hunter got on the board entirely without help didn’t he, and plenty of useful idiots want to sanction Russia and keep their oaths and go fight Russia if it comes to war, all to keep the elite in the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

If there was such a person that registered in the last week and almost all their posts were on a single thread then such a person could be construed to be somewhat of a useful idiot.

Oh and all that stuff about elites sounds somewhat tinfoil-hat-ish don't you think?

Gatling

So its not ok for hunter Biden to get a job on the legal board of a Ukrainian gas company not the full board but the legal board to which he is apparently well qualified to do .


But it's ok for Vladimir putin to seize that part of Ukraine so he can take that natural gas as russian property

Ladies and gentlemen I present hypocrisy

mmmcake

Never said it was ok, but why should we give a damn which oligarch controls the Ukraine?

So you want the EU to sanction Russia, the citizens of Europe will be the only ones to suffer and Hunter Biden and his ilk will live the good life.

Ladies and Gentlemen , i do believe this is a text book example of the actions of the Useful Idiot.

realweirdo

mmmcake wrote: »

Never said it was ok, but why should we give a damn which oligarch controls the Ukraine?

So you want the EU to sanction Russia, the citizens of Europe will be the only ones to suffer and Hunter Biden and his ilk will live the good life.

Ladies and Gentlemen , i do believe this is a text book example of the actions of the Useful Idiot.

We should at least give a damn about the principle of international borders being protected when there is no real cause to cross those borders.

To give a really good example of hypocrisy. Russia is currently saying if the US attack ISIL sites in Syria its a clear case of aggression. Yet the same Russians are heavily involved in attacking sites in Ukraine.

If you think only the west do hypocrisy you are wrong, the Russians do it just as well, in fact far better.

Let's be honest here. Russian "democracy" is a sham, there's limited or no freedom of speech, there's limited or no freedom of the press, the opposition get virtually no airtime on mainsteam media, there's no such thing as balanced debates like there is in western media on programs like Meet The Press or Question Time, there is a president and prime minister who rotate the two main offices and are in these positions for life. To hold Russia up as an ideal for anything is laughable. In no way is it better than any country in the west, and its miles down virtually every table to do with corruption, transparancy, democracy, human rights and freedom of speech.

Matt Holck

> Russians are heavily involved in attacking sites in Ukraine.

Russia should stand down

What's curious to me is what do the people of Ukraine want

gandalf

Matt Holck wrote: »

> Russians are heavily involved in attacking sites in Ukraine.

Russia should stand down

What's curious to me is what do the people of Ukraine want

I would assume they firstly want peace and longer term want to be left alone to make their own decisions without outside interference (from all sides!).

realweirdo

mmmcake wrote: »

The hypocrisy of some posters here is something to behold.
"Ukraine is a sovereign country, Russia attack it and must be punished with sanctions so it won't interfere in other countries"

The USA said it will defeat ISIS and it won't need any permission to bomb Syria to achieve this goal.
Syria is a sovereign country and its going to get bombed by the USA, why no cry for EU sanctions against the USA?

The USA has stirred up lots of trouble around the world, why no call for sanctions against them?
It sure looks like a serious case of Russophobia led by american interests.
The EU and Russia have a mutually beneficial relationship, Russia gets money for its Fuel, the EU gets a reliable source of Fuel.
Both economies benefit and prosper, the big loser in a good relationship between the EU and Russia is the USA,who from day one has been stirring up trouble in the Ukraine.

At least 50% of Syria is now effectively a failed state and a major breeding ground for an international terrorist organisation which admits it doesn't respect borders (or human rights or democracy for that matter).

Eastern Ukraine is far from a failed state. There is and was up until recently government institutions and a functioning state which took orders from Kiev.

A lot of people have no problem with the US going into Eastern Syria and taking out ISIS, one of the most barbaric organisations in history. Assad has lost control of that part of the country which in any case is the Sunni heartland and there's no hope of him ever regaining it. He's not a legitimate leader anyways.

Sudden Valley

Matt Holck wrote: »

> Russians are heavily involved in attacking sites in Ukraine.

Russia should stand down

What's curious to me is what do the people of Ukraine want

Is it not obvious that some Ukrainians in the east don't want their region of the country to be part of Ukraine anymore. Perhaps the people of the west of the country would consider offering more federal powers to the region. It just seems that the longer this civil war goes on the more chance that even if the Ukrainian army defeats the separatists that we can lok forward to a few years of terrorist attacks in that region.

Elmer Blooker

mmmcake wrote: »

Never said it was ok, but why should we give a damn which oligarch controls the Ukraine?

So you want the EU to sanction Russia, the citizens of Europe will be the only ones to suffer and Hunter Biden and his ilk will live the good life.

Ladies and Gentlemen , i do believe this is a text book example of the actions of the Useful Idiot.

In an all out sanctions war the EU is on a hiding next to nothing!
This woman has it right, as she says the Russians will "tough it out" - unfortunately voices of reason and sanity are no longer heard as the warmongering lunatics have taken over the asylum. Do we even know who's running the EU now? Are decisions to impose sanctions made at a NATO summit or are they made by politicians?
http://washingtonexaminer.com/dianne-feinstein-more-sanctions-might-not-work-against-russia/article/2552668

At least 50% of Syria is now effectively a failed state and a major breeding ground for an international terrorist organisation which admits it doesn't respect borders (or human rights or democracy for that matter).

who created this international terrorist organisation as you call it? You say he's "not a legitimate leader" I'll give you one guess who decides who is and who isn't a legitimate leader in the world today!

WakeUp

Morpheus wrote: »

Because allowing your gas supply to come from a tyrannical country and to pass through non EU member states with the capability to siphon it on the way is idiotic.

the EU needs to become resource independent and f**king fast and they shouldnt be kowtowing to putin and allowing Russia to act like the playground bully.

Take the gloves off and give him a bloody nose I say.

how do you propose the Russians are given a bloody nose? for the next while at least we need the Russians for their energy. it isnt their fault the EU have not sorted out an alternative idea.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh look, you didn't answer the question. Shocked, I tells ya.

I'll ask it again: how does "tough diplomacy" work with no punitive measures to back it up?

well now, you arent really in a position to be flinging frisbies at me are you sometimes you dont answer questions. depends on what you think punitive should entail? and you must take each case as it comes. in this instance its nuclear armed Russia and they supply us with our energy. its one thing to boot the pootin out of the g-clubs, sanction his mates restrict movements, cancel business deals so on..that coupled with talking to them and trying to bring around might work. the Russians have a position whether you think its right or wrong they have one. this is a reality. its another thing to start sanctioning their energy companies. the companies we rely on. where are the sanctions going to end? will they only end if the western position is fully and totally achieved? is there room for middle ground here.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Wh??

I realise you are against military support but you're even against the sanctions?

Isnt this the non-violent response? This is very far from "taking the gloves off". Its a type of boycott, which can be very effective. And non-violent.

You're passionately committed to letting Russia do whatver it wants and you really do think we should do nothing at all?

Can I ask what business you're involved with? I'm sorry but at this point I assume you have some major monetary interest in this dispute, because there isnt any other rational explanation.

I accept its a non-violent response Im not saying it isnt. but boycotting energy. energy that we need? Im sry but I dont see the logic in that I dont get that. Im a macdaddy pimp and Russian bitchez be hot. seriously though Im not going to tell you what I do Trees if thats ok its personal and I dont have disclose such a thing. what I will say is I dont have any monetary interests in Russia or with Russia Im passionate about certain things alright. Russia isnt one of them. I dont want to see a war or our energy supply cut off. both are bad things this is what motivates me on this particular topic.

realweirdo

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In an all out sanctions war the EU is on a hiding next to nothing!
This woman has it right, as she says the Russians will "tough it out" - unfortunately voices of reason and sanity are no longer heard as the warmongering lunatics have taken over the asylum. Do we even know who's running the EU now? Are decisions to impose sanctions made at a NATO summit or are they made by politicians?
http://washingtonexaminer.com/dianne-feinstein-more-sanctions-might-not-work-against-russia/article/2552668

They might tough it out but further sanctions would have huge negative implications for the Russian economy including a ratings downgrade.

The only war mongering anyone has seen in all of this is from the Russians. You think Western politicians are bad? Clearly you haven't been listening to the ultra nationalist politicians in the Russian Duma. In fact the vast majority of politicians in the Duma lament the fall of the USSR including the communists, ultra nationalists and in Putin's party.

As for who created ISIS, Assad played about a 90% role in creating it, from releasing their leaders, allowing them to gain a huge foothold in eastern provinces so he could say to the outside world he's "fighting terrorism", from not bombing them until they became a massive threat and then trying and failing to align himself with the US in the war on terrorism, to acting as a recruiting sergent for ISIS foreign fighters who flocked to Syria supposedly to fight Assad.

oscarBravo

WakeUp wrote: »

the Russians have a position whether you think its right or wrong they have one. this is a reality.

I have no idea what that means. Russia doesn't get to set its own rules about the sovereignty of neighbouring countries. You seem to be expressing the view that if Russia thinks it owns Ukraine, then we have no right to an opinion on that. Worse, that view seems to be founded on nothing other than "might is right" - you seem to believe that bullying is OK, as long as it's not a member of your family that's being bullied. Even worse again, bullying is OK if the bully might be able to hurt you too.

where are the sanctions going to end? will they only end if the western position is fully and totally achieved? is there room for middle ground here.

There certainly is no room for middle ground if your initial bargaining position is "we surrender".

WakeUp

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have no idea what that means. Russia doesn't get to set its own rules about the sovereignty of neighbouring countries. You seem to be expressing the view that if Russia thinks it owns Ukraine, then we have no right to an opinion on that. Worse, that view seems to be founded on nothing other than "might is right" - you seem to believe that bullying is OK, as long as it's not a member of your family that's being bullied. Even worse again, bullying is OK if the bully might be able to hurt you too. There certainly is no room for middle ground if your initial bargaining position is "we surrender".

we can have an opinion all we want where is that even coming from I never said we couldnt . no more than I said "bullying" is acceptable. so no room for middle ground then I know you know exactly what that means. see thats ignoring reality. its clear the Russians have what they perceive as interests or a position. right or wrong doesnt come into it. even if annexing Crimea was wrong which it was. they have them. just how it is. youre making a lot of assumptions here on my behalf ill give you this youre most good at that.

mmmcake

President Obama admitted a few weeks ago in a White House meeting that Crimea is "gone," the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee said Thursday.

“I was in a meeting in the White House a few weeks ago, and the president was giving us a synopsis of the problems around the world, and I said, 'You didn’t mention Crimea. Is that just gone?' And the basic answer was, ‘Yeah, that’s gone,’” Rep. Buck McKeon, R-Calif., told an audience at the American Enterprise Institute.

washingtonexaminer.com/obama-to-lawmakers-crimea-is-gone/article/2553204

So back to Syria

mmmcake

Very interesting developments rumoured around the web tonight, if you remember a month ago the leader of the separatists Igor Strelkov stepped down, well he has resurface with a new "job".

Why did Russia not annex Donbass juts like Crimea in order to avoid further bloodshed, well it appears Russia has use the conflict to smoke out a fifth column in Moscow.

Igor Strelkov new job will be to expose the fifth column, could be fireworks, i guess there will be a lot of worried people in Moscow tonight.

Matt Holck

not another "job"

does it pay?

Gatling

mmmcake wrote: »

Very interesting developments rumoured around the web tonight, if you remember a month ago the leader of the separatists Igor Strelkov stepped down, well he has resurface with a new "job".

Why did Russia not annex Donbass juts like Crimea in order to avoid further bloodshed, well it appears Russia has use the conflict to smoke out a fifth column in Moscow.

Igor Strelkov new job will be to expose the fifth column, could be fireworks, i guess there will be a lot of worried people in Moscow tonight.

Highly doubt it, he's a member of the 5 th column former russia army , KGB .FSB formerly of Moscow .

seems strange he was running the separatists and just happened to be in East ukraine , at the right place and the right time .
loyal to the party loyal to the mother land

Count Dooku

Matt Holck wrote: »

> Russians are heavily involved in attacking sites in Ukraine.

Russia should stand down

What's curious to me is what do the people of Ukraine want

Why nobody ask what people of eastern Ukraine want?

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody ask what people of eastern Ukraine want?

Ask the nation of Ukraine first

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody ask what people of eastern Ukraine want?

Probably because the whole area is crawling with Russian Mercenaries and Troops.

Matt Holck

airdrop guns and munitions to region

and see if anyone pulls the trigger

airdrop open communication broadcast

and see if anyone has a story

Matt Holck

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody ask what people of eastern Ukraine want?

oh ya

I didn't mean Ukraine as a nation
I meant the people living there

sorry

Busted Flat.

gandalf wrote: »

Probably because the whole area is crawling with Russian Mercenaries and Troops.

The mercenaries are western backed, in Kiev, most have nazi symbols on their uniforms or tattooed with nazi emblems.