Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

Matt Holck

violent measure can cut cancer out

purification is often an excuse for violence

Gatling

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The mercenaries are western backed, in Kiev, most have nazi symbols on their uniforms or tattooed with nazi emblems.

Of course they are

Busted Flat.

Gatling wrote: »

Of course they are

First time to agree with me.

Gatling

Busted Flat. wrote: »

First time to agree with me.

Sarcasm,


Wonder if the next few hours we'll see these new sanctions

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Probably because the whole area is crawling with Russian Mercenaries and Troops.

Then by now Ukrainian army should have thousands of them captured

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

Ask the nation of Ukraine first

Why nobody asked Serbians during Kosovo?

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody asked Serbians during Kosovo?

Asked what?

Whatabouting is a poor defence of a powerful nation attacking a weak one.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Asked what?

Whatabouting is a poor defence of a powerful nation attacking a weak one.

Do you mean USA attacking Serbia?

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean USA attacking Serbia?

When you start a thread about that you can orgasm on the whataboutery.... Though its a poor defence of a country attacking & annexing a weaker one.

You asked about the people of Donetsk & luhansk being asked about their destiny.

They have been, the majority prefer continued unity as part of Ukraine.

The Russian agents in charge of the place don't have the will of the people behind them.

Black Swan

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why nobody asked Serbians during Kosovo?

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean USA attacking Serbia?

MOD REMINDER:
The topic of this thread pertains to the Ukraine, not Serbia. Please get back on topic. If you wish to discuss Serbia with a fresh new outlook, consider starting a new thread. Thanks.

comongethappy

Very sad article regarding the families of Russian forces fighting in Ukraine.
If a family member serves, you accept the risk.
But its the not knowing that is gut-wrenching.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html

Gatling

comongethappy wrote: »

Very sad article regarding the families of Russian forces fighting in Ukraine.
If a family member serves, you accept the risk.
But its the not knowing that is gut-wrenching.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html

Russian troops in Ukraine say it aint so ,

But in all seriousness a state involved illegally in another sovereign states affairs both politically and militarily and yet there troops are told there on a training exercise ,
And when there killed there secretly buried without informing the families shame on Russian officials and Vladimir Putin ,

InTheTrees

comongethappy wrote: »

Very sad article regarding the families of Russian forces fighting in Ukraine.
If a family member serves, you accept the risk.

Well they dont have much choice either.

They have conscription in Russia. All males have to serve in the army for a year and a half between the ages of 18-21.

Which is why the russian army is (generally) a poorly paid drunken rabble. Conscripts never do very well, especially in foreign wars. Forcing people to fight isnt the best way to build a disciplined army, unless they're defending their homes.

Obviously they also have professional units and they also have special forces. Which is more likely the troops that are being used in Ukraine.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

When you start a thread about that you can orgasm on the whataboutery.... Though its a poor defence of a country attacking & annexing a weaker one.

You asked about the people of Donetsk & luhansk being asked about their destiny.

They have been, the majority prefer continued unity as part of Ukraine.

The Russian agents in charge of the place don't have the will of the people behind them.

Are you saying that Russia should silently watch on genocide of Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine?

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

Are you saying that Russia should silently watch on genocide of Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine?

What genocide? The one that has been concocted in the Russia media to stir up a patriotic frenzy?

Care to show us this genocide in action?

Here's a definition of Genocide to allow you frame your response.

"Genocide: The deliberate destruction of an entire race or nation."

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Are you saying that Russia should silently watch on genocide of Russian minority in Eastern Ukraine?

There was/is no genocide, so hysterical language doesn't help your cause.

There was no conflict to begin with until Russian infiltration started one once Crimea was wrapped up.

The Kremlin seemed to have little issue with the 150,000 Russians killed in Chechnya.
No one for a second thinks the Putin regime has any altruistic motives in annexing neighbouring territory against the will of its occupants.

Putin's supporters here are going to have to try much harder than that to justify this mess.

Count Dooku

comongethappy wrote: »

Very sad article regarding the families of Russian forces fighting in Ukraine.
If a family member serves, you accept the risk.
But its the not knowing that is gut-wrenching.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html

If it would be as it described in article, which claims that soldiers had buy camp on own money, then ukies would capture most of them.
I more believe to story where some well trained professionals from Russian army decided to take holidays and kill two birds by one stone - help Russian minority to fight against genocide and improve own skills.
At least videos from liberated towns confirms that was not demotivated conscript soldiers

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

If it would be as it described in article, which claims that soldiers had buy camp on own money, then ukies would capture most of them.
I more believe to story where some well trained professionals from Russian army decided to take holidays and kill two birds by one stone - help Russian minority to fight against genocide and improve own skills.

Again what genocide are you refering to

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

If it would be as it described in article, which claims that soldiers had buy camp on own money, then ukies would capture most of them.
I more believe to story where some well trained professionals from Russian army decided to take holidays and kill two birds by one stone

I know of no other army that permits its troops to go off and fight for a cause outside of their own state. Typically that would result in a court martial for those troops. Unless of course it is sanctioned and financed by Russia which the evidence strongly points towards.

- help Russian minority to fight against genocide

What genocide, I'll ask again please demonstrate that the Ukrainians are engaged in "The deliberate destruction of an entire race or nation".

I think there is a far stronger argument for the inverse position.

and improve own skills.

So killing people is improving their skills, is that the best you can come up with. TBH with that mindset I think stronger sanctions are needed to get Russia back in line. Seriously! Practice killing people!

At least videos from liberated towns confirms that was not demotivated conscript soldiers

Well at least you admit they are Russian Soldiers.

comongethappy

Count Dooku wrote: »

If it would be as it described in article, which claims that soldiers had buy camp on own money, then ukies would capture most of them.
I more believe to story where some well trained professionals from Russian army decided to take holidays and kill two birds by one stone - help Russian minority to fight against genocide and improve own skills.
At least videos from liberated towns confirms that was not demotivated conscript soldiers

Why should more be captured?

A lot may be relatively inexperienced, but the spine of Russian forces there are top end.... They are kicking Ukrainian ass big time!

Ukrainian forces are even less experienced & far less well equipped.... The number of captured Ukrainian forces exceeds Russians.

Fair play to you for still believing in fairy tales..... Not many believe the fiction that thousands of Russian soldiers have taken their arms, tanks & APCs for a holiday.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

So killing people is improving their skills, is that the best you can come up with. TBH with that mindset I think stronger sanctions are needed to get Russia back in line. Seriously! Practice killing people!

I just dont see how economic sanctions are going to bring the Russians back in line or make them back down.I think they will have the opposite effect. I think they are already having the opposite effect. this is an interesting op-ed from the China Daily.

West's antics pushing Russia closer to China

The recent NATO summit in Wales, held against the background of the armed conflict in Ukraine, has brought back the Cold War atmosphere to Europe. NATO's partnership with Russia remains formally suspended. In fact, NATO is treating Russia more as an adversary than a partner.
The alliance is setting up a "Rapid Reaction Force" to deal with emergencies on Europe's eastern flank. The alliance's military infrastructure is moving toward that exposed flank, and closer to Russia's borders. NATO forces will now spend more time exercising in the east, and their presence there will visibly grow. NATO-leaning Ukraine, which the alliance alleges is an object of "Russian aggression", has been promised financial and military support.

The Ukraine crisis is not just about Eastern Europe, it is also about the world order. The Kremlin is seeking Washington's recognition of what it regards as its core national security interest: keeping Ukraine as a buffer zone between Russia and the West, particularly NATO. Washington, on principle, denies Moscow this "imperial privilege", and insists on the freedom of all countries, including Ukraine, to choose alliances and affiliations.

The stakes are high. Should Russia be rolled back in Ukraine, not only will its international position materially suffer, but also the power of the Kremlin inside the country might be dangerously undermined. On the other hand, if the US were to eventually accept Russia's demand for a "zone of comfort" along its borders, Washington's credibility as the global dominant power, the norm-setter and arbiter will suffer.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, of course, is no military alliance, and even less a rival of NATO. Its member states, however, are closely watching the US-Russian match being played out at the western end on the great Eurasian continent. Some, like the Central Asian states, are essentially ducking, hedging, or running for cover. China, which seeks to defend its own core interests in East Asia and the Western Pacific, looks at the current Russian-American competition through the prism of its own relations with Washington and Moscow.
China has a very important relationship to keep with the US. Playing a long game, Beijing usually avoids direct collisions with Washington, and means to profit from the US-initiated globalization to the fullest extent possible. Like Russia, however, China would also want to carve out a comfort zone for itself along its eastern borders and shores, and, like Russia again, it faces the reality of the US' physical presence and US-led alliances there. What Washington is now doing in an effort to contain Moscow in Eastern Europe provides important information to Beijing in East Asia.

There is more to Beijing's reaction than just watching and drawing conclusions. The apparently long-term rupture of Russia's relations with the West offers an opportunity to the Chinese leadership to enhance its already close relationship with the Kremlin and thus turn the global geopolitical balance in its favor - not unlike former US president Richard Nixon and former secretary of state Henry Kissinger who reached out to Chairman Mao Zedong in 1972. The Russians, angry with Washington, are now more amenable to giving China wider access to their energy riches and their advanced military technology. The Western sanctions pushing Russia out of the international financial system are also making Moscow more ready and willing to back the Chinese yuan against the US dollar.
A Sino-Russian military alliance against the US is still a rather long shot. Yet the two countries' political, economic and military alignment is getting thicker. An expellee from the G8, which is now back to G7, Russia is now eagerly embracing the non-West, particularly in Asia and Latin America. Within the non-West, China is unquestionably the premier power. Managing Russia will not be easy for anyone, but the country is a precious resource for China. So far, Beijing has displayed more tact in dealing with Moscow than any other major player in the world. Building on this success, it can now set its bar higher.

To a China which is rising and raising its global profile, BRICS is an asymmetrical equivalent of the G7, albeit in a very different shape and form. The SCO, to use a similar analogy, is an asymmetrical analogue to NATO, but as a political organization of continental Asia (including Russia), rather than a military bloc. The inclusion of India and Pakistan into the SCO is a logical next step. Iran, currently an observer, can follow later. Turkey, an SCO dialogue partner and a member of NATO, can become a useful link to the North Atlantic alliance.
Enhancing the SCO's security credentials and extending its reach requires a major qualitative upgrade of China's strategic thinking and diplomacy, and an even closer partnership with Russia. The SCO summit in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, will probably not see this yet, but it might become a point when the balance of Eurasia has decisively turned in China's favor. Beijing would need to thank Washington for it.
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2014-09/12/content_18586033.htm

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

What genocide? The one that has been concocted in the Russia media to stir up a patriotic frenzy?

Care to show us this genocide in action?

Here's a definition of Genocide to allow you frame your response.

"Genocide: The deliberate destruction of an entire race or nation."

Do you mean that if mass killing of ethnic Russian civilians is not falling under definition of genocide, Kiyv can continue to shell residential areas in Donetsk and Luhansk?

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that if mass killing of ethnic Russian civilians is not falling under definition of genocide, Kiyv can continue to shell residential areas in Donetsk and Luhansk?

The shelling of civilian areas, though reprehensible is not genocide.

I'm not sure how much easier it can be made?

Do you have a breakdown of the ethnicity of killed civilians?
I couldn't find anything.

Count Dooku

comongethappy wrote: »

Why should more be captured?

A lot may be relatively inexperienced, but the spine of Russian forces there are top end.... They are kicking Ukrainian ass big time!

Ukrainian forces are even less experienced & far less well equipped.... The number of captured Ukrainian forces exceeds Russians.

Fair play to you for still believing in fairy tales..... Not many believe the fiction that thousands of Russian soldiers have taken their arms, tanks & APCs for a holiday.

From what I seen on NATO images, only dozen of tanks and howitzers plus about thousand personnel managed to sneak to Ukraine. Could you please explain how they managed to beat 50,000 strong Ukrainian army destroy nearly hundred of tanks? Are they all T-1000 invisible terminators?

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

From what I seen on NATO images, only dozen of tanks and howitzers plus about thousand personnel managed to sneak to Ukraine. Could you please explain how they managed to beat 50,000 strong Ukrainian army destroy nearly hundred of tanks? Are they all T-1000 invisible terminators?

NATO aren't the only images available.

The news & social media show armoured units totaling in the hundreds.... The Rebel leadership have stated same.... It isn't a dozen or so.

The modest Ukrainian army (a husk of its former self) is defending hundreds of kms of front against superior forces & weapons.... Its stretched beyond breaking point.
Hence its defeat.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean that if mass killing of ethnic Russian civilians is not falling under definition of genocide, Kiyv can continue to shell residential areas in Donetsk and Luhansk?

You do realise only around 5000 have died on both sides now most russian media reports talk about the 24/7 heavy shelling of civilian areas in 3 separate cities which would suggest something is wrong .

Don't forget the 16000 fleeing Crimea every month who's ethnic status predate russia .


fleeing persecution ??

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The shelling of civilian areas, though reprehensible is not genocide.

Then you should explain to Russian barbarians that any deliberate killing of civilians in residential areas populated by mostly ethnic Russians, which is not falling under genocide definition and approved by EU, shouldn't worry Russians in Russia, because this is European way to handle ethnic minorities (see operation Storm in Serbian Krajina)

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

NATO aren't the only images available.

The news & social media show armoured units totaling in the hundreds.... The Rebel leadership have stated same.... It isn't a dozen or so.

The modest Ukrainian army (a husk of its former self) is defending hundreds of kms of front against superior forces & weapons.... Its stretched beyond breaking point.
Hence its defeat.

good god! There are still some people out there who consider social media and NATO compulsive liars to be evidence.
Look up Marie Harf MH17 on YouTube and you will see what social media evidence is - its embarrassing.

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Then you should explain to Russian barbarians that any deliberate killing of civilians in residential areas populated by mostly ethnic Russians, which is not falling under genocide definition and approved by EU, shouldn't worry Russians in Russia, because this is European way to handle ethnic minorities (see operation Storm in Serbian Krajina)

If you say so.

Though where is majority ethnic Russian?

Both Luhansk & Donetsk oblasts are 60%+ ethnic Ukrainian, about 35-40% ethnic Russian

A couple of hundred thousands have fled to Russia, possibly diluting the ethnic Russian mix further.

The only major city in Ukraine that is majority Russian is Sevastopol.

So.....

- When you can, get back to us with the ethnic breakdown of civilian casualties.
- Then show us a definition of genocide that backs yourself.

Facts people.... Facts!

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

You do realise only around 5000 have died on both sides now most russian media reports talk about the 24/7 heavy shelling of civilian areas in 3 separate cities which would suggest something is wrong .

Don't forget the 16000 fleeing Crimea every month who's ethnic status predate russia fleeing persecution ??

The only thing what is wrong is that ukies have about hundred howitzers for 200 km front. Taking in account that they have to use most of them to support troops, it means that they don't have so many guns against cities. Plus you cannot shoot from howitzers 24/7 because you will destroy barrel quickly. Plus USSR left a good system of bomb shelters, so civilians can hide there.
I would say that ukies are doing their best from what they have