Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

good god! There are still some people out there who consider social media and NATO compulsive liars to be evidence.
Look up Marie Harf MH17 on YouTube and you will see what social media evidence is - its embarrassing.

If you folks prefer to live in the fantasy that guys drive tanks into other nations for their holidays, then that's fine.

There is Russian armour in Ukraine.... A lot of it.

Pretending that its a 'boyz-on-tour' with a T-72 for lolz, just to reinforce an agenda kills what little credibility you & the count have.

gandalf

So basically Count Dooku you have absolutely no proof to back up your claims. I thought so.

cendant

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

There is Russian armour in Ukraine.... A lot of it.

Are you implying it is the Russian troops?

All those tanks are left-overs from the Soviet-era.

cendant

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Both Luhansk & Donetsk oblasts are 60%+ ethnic Ukrainian, about 35-40% ethnic Russian

Seriously?

BoJack Horseman

cendant wrote: »

Are you implying it is the Russian troops?

All those tanks are left-overs from the Soviet-era.

Even those too new to be pre-1991?
Or the models never used by the Ukrainian army?
The ones repeatedly confirmed by rebel leadership as incoming from Russia?

.... Yes... Those ones.

gandalf

cendant wrote: »

Are you implying it is the Russian troops?

All those tanks are left-overs from the Soviet-era.

T72's aren't they are current Russian issued armour.

Gatling

cendant wrote: »

Are you implying it is the Russian troops?

All those tanks are left-overs from the Soviet-era.

Yes there Russian troops and equipment .

No not necessarily the separatists managed to capture a handful of armoured personal carriers

Not the hundred of apc's, tanks , and other russian military vehicles currently in eastern Ukraine

BoJack Horseman

cendant wrote: »

Seriously?

Is it that tricky?

wikipedia wrote:

At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[8]

Luhansk wrote:

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%). Ukrainians constitute the majority in all raions except for Stanytsia-Luhanska Raion and Krasnodon Raion, both of which are east of Luhansk. Ethnic Russians also constitute the majority in regionally significant cities, such as Krasnodon, Sverdlovsk, Krasnyi Luch and Stakhanov

I was wrong though.... Looks like some of the eastern towns are majority Russian, though the area claimed illegally by the rebel leadership is not.

I'm awaiting on data from The count to prove that the majority of civilian deaths are Russian.

WakeUp

more sanctions. cause sanctions are working.

US Unveils Latest Russian Sanctions, Putin Immediately Responds That Russia Drafting Retaliation:

Moments ago, as was widely preannounced, the US Treasury unveiled its latest round of Russian sanctions. While the bigger picture was well-known, here are some of the highlights:

U.S. SANCTIONS FOCUS ON FINANCIAL, ENERGY, DEFENSE SECTORS
U.S. TREASURY ADDS SBERBANK TO SANCTIONS LIST,
U.S. TREASURY SANCTIONS AFFECTS GAZPROM, GAZPROM NEFT, LUKOIL, ROSNEFT, AND SURGUTNEFTGAZ
U.S. TIGHTENS DEBT FINANCING RESTRICTIONS TO 30 DAYS
As Bloomberg reports, action deepens existing sanctions on Russian financial institutions, expands sanctions on Russia’s energy sector, targets additional energy- and defense-related firms, U.S. Treasury says in statement. "Today’s actions demonstrate our determination to increase the costs on Russia as long as it continues to violate Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty," Under Secretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence David S. Cohen says in statement

Treasury Dept says it “maintains significant scope to expand these sanctions.”

Sberbank added to sanctions list; Treasury also tightens “debt financing restrictions by reducing from 90 days to 30 days the maturity period” for sanctioned banks

Also imposes sanctions that “prohibit the exportation of goods, services (not including financial services), or technology in support of exploration or production for Russian deepwater, Arctic offshore, or shale projects that have the potential to produce oil”

Step affects 5 cos.: Gazprom, Gazprom Neft, Lukoil, Surgutneftegas, and Rosneft, Treasury says

And instantly: PUTIN: GOVT DRAFTING PROPOSALS TO RETALIATE AGAINST SANCTIONS
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-12/us-unveils-latest-russian-sanctions-putin-immediately-responds-russia-drafting-retal?page=1

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

If you say so.

Though where is majority ethnic Russian?

Both Luhansk & Donetsk oblasts are 60%+ ethnic Ukrainian, about 35-40% ethnic Russian
army
A couple of hundred thousands have fled to Russia, possibly diluting the ethnic Russian mix further.

The only city in Ukraine that is majority Russian is Sevastopol.

So.....

- When you can, get back to us with the ethnic breakdown of civilian casualties.
- Then show us a definition of genocide that backs yourself.

Facts people.... Facts!

Fact is that more than 80% of population in so called "Novorossia" in ptesent borders are ethnic Russians


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed.PNG

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Fact is that more than 80% of population in so called "Novorossia" in ptesent borders are ethnic Russians

Nearly there Count.... Not quite though

That image pertains to primary spoken language.... not ethnicity.

The civilian casualty ethnicity breakdown is imminent I'm sure?

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

I just dont see how economic sanctions are going to bring the Russians back in line or make them back down.I think they will have the opposite effect. I think they are already having the opposite effect. this is an interesting op-ed from the China Daily.

West's antics pushing Russia closer to China

The recent NATO summit in Wales, held against the background of the armed conflict in Ukraine, has brought back the Cold War atmosphere to Europe. NATO's partnership with Russia remains formally suspended. In fact, NATO is treating Russia more as an adversary than a partner.
The alliance is setting up a "Rapid Reaction Force" to deal with emergencies on Europe's eastern flank. The alliance's military infrastructure is moving toward that exposed flank, and closer to Russia's borders. NATO forces will now spend more time exercising in the east, and their presence there will visibly grow. NATO-leaning Ukraine, which the alliance alleges is an object of "Russian aggression", has been promised financial and military support.

The Ukraine crisis is not just about Eastern Europe, it is also about the world order. The Kremlin is seeking Washington's recognition of what it regards as its core national security interest: keeping Ukraine as a buffer zone between Russia and the West, particularly NATO. Washington, on principle, denies Moscow this "imperial privilege", and insists on the freedom of all countries, including Ukraine, to choose alliances and affiliations.

The stakes are high. Should Russia be rolled back in Ukraine, not only will its international position materially suffer, but also the power of the Kremlin inside the country might be dangerously undermined. On the other hand, if the US were to eventually accept Russia's demand for a "zone of comfort" along its borders, Washington's credibility as the global dominant power, the norm-setter and arbiter will suffer.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, of course, is no military alliance, and even less a rival of NATO. Its member states, however, are closely watching the US-Russian match being played out at the western end on the great Eurasian continent. Some, like the Central Asian states, are essentially ducking, hedging, or running for cover. China, which seeks to defend its own core interests in East Asia and the Western Pacific, looks at the current Russian-American competition through the prism of its own relations with Washington and Moscow.
China has a very important relationship to keep with the US. Playing a long game, Beijing usually avoids direct collisions with Washington, and means to profit from the US-initiated globalization to the fullest extent possible. Like Russia, however, China would also want to carve out a comfort zone for itself along its eastern borders and shores, and, like Russia again, it faces the reality of the US' physical presence and US-led alliances there. What Washington is now doing in an effort to contain Moscow in Eastern Europe provides important information to Beijing in East Asia.

There is more to Beijing's reaction than just watching and drawing conclusions. The apparently long-term rupture of Russia's relations with the West offers an opportunity to the Chinese leadership to enhance its already close relationship with the Kremlin and thus turn the global geopolitical balance in its favor - not unlike former US president Richard Nixon and former secretary of state Henry Kissinger who reached out to Chairman Mao Zedong in 1972. The Russians, angry with Washington, are now more amenable to giving China wider access to their energy riches and their advanced military technology. The Western sanctions pushing Russia out of the international financial system are also making Moscow more ready and willing to back the Chinese yuan against the US dollar.
A Sino-Russian military alliance against the US is still a rather long shot. Yet the two countries' political, economic and military alignment is getting thicker. An expellee from the G8, which is now back to G7, Russia is now eagerly embracing the non-West, particularly in Asia and Latin America. Within the non-West, China is unquestionably the premier power. Managing Russia will not be easy for anyone, but the country is a precious resource for China. So far, Beijing has displayed more tact in dealing with Moscow than any other major player in the world. Building on this success, it can now set its bar higher.

To a China which is rising and raising its global profile, BRICS is an asymmetrical equivalent of the G7, albeit in a very different shape and form. The SCO, to use a similar analogy, is an asymmetrical analogue to NATO, but as a political organization of continental Asia (including Russia), rather than a military bloc. The inclusion of India and Pakistan into the SCO is a logical next step. Iran, currently an observer, can follow later. Turkey, an SCO dialogue partner and a member of NATO, can become a useful link to the North Atlantic alliance.
Enhancing the SCO's security credentials and extending its reach requires a major qualitative upgrade of China's strategic thinking and diplomacy, and an even closer partnership with Russia. The SCO summit in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, will probably not see this yet, but it might become a point when the balance of Eurasia has decisively turned in China's favor. Beijing would need to thank Washington for it.
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2014-09/12/content_18586033.htm

You realise that is what NATO was set up for, as a common defence against Soviet aggression. To that end, an ability to mobilise and deploy rapidly has been a sorely missing capability. Doubly so since the US removed the last of it's Armored divisions back stateside.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You realise that is what NATO was set up for, as a common defence against Soviet aggression. To that end, an ability to mobilise and deploy rapidly has been a sorely missing capability. Doubly so since the US removed the last of it's Armored divisions back stateside.

of course not Ive no idea why Nato was set up in the first place thanks for that. now about your stated claim - Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine - you still havent backed it up. back it up please claim/counter claim. Id like specifics.cheers.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nearly there Count.... Not quite though

That image pertains to primary spoken language.... not ethnicity.

The civilian casualty ethnicity breakdown is imminent I'm sure?

According to UN about 800k refugees fled to Russia and about 200k to somewhere else in Ukraine. It means that about 80% are considering themselves as Russians

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

of course not Ive no idea why Nato was set up in the first place thanks for that. now about your stated claim - Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine - you still havent backed it up. back it up please claim/counter claim. Id like specifics.cheers.

I gave examples of where you have consistently blamed the West for the conflict and issues in the Ukraine, while absolving Russia.

Lemming

Count Dooku wrote: »

According to UN about 800k refugees fled to Russia and about 200k to somewhere else in Ukraine. It means that about 80% are considering themselves as Russians

That's child-like reasoning. Refugees tend to want to get themselves out of harms way as a priority over where they go, which whilst important would tend to come up second in the list over "where is safe and closest?".

Absolutely no metrics have been provided as to the ethnic breakdown of these 800,000 refugees so you're making quite an assumption there.

mmmcake

Amnesty web site.

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces.

amnesty.ie/news/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces

The east Ukraine people have been saying the nazi right sector are running amok in the east, here is something to lend credence to their claims.


NSFW this is in russian, it is photos of the "gifts" the volunteer forces are sending to the mothers of separatist fighters.

pravilnoe.tv/home/society/659-doneckim-materyam-prislali-otrezannye-golovy-synovey.html

These are the forces we as EU citizens are backing, lovely people no doubt.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

According to UN about 800k refugees fled to Russia and about 200k to somewhere else in Ukraine. It means that about 80% are considering themselves as Russians

Actually according to the UN 190,000 are displaced .

According to russia there's 800,000 fled to russia and and another 100,000+ seeking protection.

Now I ask where are these 800k people exactly in temporary camps in Russia? , temporary field hospitals ?

Think about it 800,000 people yet no evidence of this mass movement of people to russia .

Every conflict for the last 60 years we've seen documented evidence .from still pictures and videos .
But yet in this day and age we've seen nothing

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I gave examples of where you have consistently blamed the West for the conflict and issues in the Ukraine, while absolving Russia.

what do you mean you gave "examples" will you go away out of that. examples:D you said "Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine" so back up what it is you claim I am denying - specifically - Id like specifics please, you said it now back it up please. cheers.

mmmcake

Gatling wrote: »

.

Every conflict for the last 60 years we've seen documented evidence .from still pictures and videos .
But yet in this day and age we've seen nothing

True, now where are the photos and videos of the Russian invasion?

comongethappy

Count Dooku wrote: »

According to UN about 800k refugees fled to Russia and about 200k to somewhere else in Ukraine. It means that about 80% are considering themselves as Russians

No, that doesn't prove anything.

You said the vast majority of civilian casualties were ethnic Russian..... It cities/provinces that are not majority ethnic Russian.

You were asked to prove it.

This is a poor attempt that fails right out the gate.

If Russia invaded Dublin & I fled to London, does that choice change me ethnicity?
If I flee to a family member in Dubai does that prove I see myself as Arabic?

No of course it doesn't.

Poor effort tbh.

Gatling

mmmcake wrote: »

True, now where are the photos and videos of the Russian invasion?

I posted a video that showed a whole russian armoured column and supply vehicles sitting on a Ukrainian highway .

Here's the kicker the OSCE wants to put drones in the sky over eastern Ukraine to monitor the movement of troops And vehicles guess what country objected.

mmmcake

Gatling wrote: »

I posted a video that showed a whole russian armoured column and supply vehicles sitting on a Ukrainian highway .

Here's the kicker the OSCE wants to put drones in the sky over eastern Ukraine to monitor the movement of troops And vehicles guess what country objected.

have you got a link?

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

From post #2249


From the Ukraine: As it happens thread:

Post #6567


Post # 6571


Post # 5400


Just some examples of your viewpoint that the West has caused this conflict.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I gave examples of where you have consistently blamed the West for the conflict and issues in the Ukraine, while absolving Russia.

so here are your "examples"...that back up nothing - Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine -

______________________________________________________________
I have some American friends bright people and they are actually laughing at us here in Europe, as to how the leaders over here can be so stupid as to be manipulated into a conflict with Russia on behalf of US interests . European leaders should be putting European interests first. and its not in our interests to have conflict with Russia. the Americans and their Nato stooges like the punk raswhatever are now involved in a proxy war with Russia, through Kiev, on Russias border. so Vlad is currently carving out himself a bufferzone in the south and east of Ukraine rightly or wrongly. its the Americans who are driving the sanction war between Europe and Russia. and they dont seem to be suffering from sanctions. both Europe and Russia particularly Europe are feeling them and its going to get worse. do people honestly believe the Americans give a sh1t about us. because they dont. they care about themselves, obviously. they swooped in at the end of world war 2 when Europe lay in rubble and took over. it would be in European interests to have stronger ties with Russia and Asia and that wouldnt be good for the Americans. they are driving a wedge between us and Russia that may never recover and driving us toward war. war between Europe and Russia who benefits. it wont be either us or Russia. thats for sure. maybe Merkel gets it. we shall see
From the Ukraine: As it happens thread:

Post #6567
Quote:
The Russians dont need to invade Ukraine outright with force all they have to do is wait. everyday Putin rises he walks over to the calendar on his wall and crosses out another day. each tick is a day closer to Winter and the cold. Ukraine have maybe six weeks max before it potentially runs out of coal. half of the coal mines in Donbass arent operational and the railway lines used to transport the coal are damaged. no coal means they wont be able to power their electricity stations. Ukrainian gas storage the reverse supply from Europe and the little they produce themselves is enough to see them through the warmer months. probably not enough for the Winter. no coal no gas could be a quite cold few months ahead for them. and if they are put in a position like that they may end up with no choice but to siphon off some of the gas destined for Europe. Winter is particularly cold in that part of the world.
Post # 6571
Quote:
So the NYT is reporting that Russia has moved equipment inside Ukrainian territory..they need to do more than quote officials if they are going to run with something like this...you cant just allege something like this and cite "officials".
Post # 5400
Quote:
Im wondering what the Americans are up too because they are up to something. Why is Ukraine so important to them what could be so important that they have decided on a crazy and insane confrontational path with Russia. Everyone has an angle Russia, Europe, America. The Americans have their own reasons but they dont have the right to sleepwalk the rest of us into a war in pursuit of them. Make no mistake the Americans are on a crazy path its both desperate and crazy what are they up too cui bono.

Just some examples of your viewpoint that the West has caused this conflict.

WakeUp wrote: »

what do you mean you gave "examples" will you go away out of that. examples:D you said "Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine" so back up what it is you claim I am denying - specifically - Id like specifics please, you said it now back it up please. cheers.

you can now add "absolving Russia" to go along with "Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine". and I want specifics please,thanks.

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

According to UN about 800k refugees fled to Russia and about 200k to somewhere else in Ukraine. It means that about 80% are considering themselves as Russians

Really?

Hours later & this is what you come up with?

Despite census data to the contrary, refugees fleeing to Russia in large numbers trumps all.

Again I'll ask, where is your empirical breakdown backing yourself that the majority of civilian casualties are ethnic Russian?

Count Dooku

Lemming wrote: »

That's child-like reasoning. Refugees tend to want to get themselves out of harms way as a priority over where they go, which whilst important would tend to come up second in the list over "where is safe and closest?".

Absolutely no metrics have been provided as to the ethnic breakdown of these 800,000 refugees so you're making quite an assumption there.

Nice try, but you failed again
Refugees will stay where they will feel safe, nobody was stopping them to use Russia as transit country, ie enter Russia in one checkpoint and leave in another

AbusesToilets

you can now add "absolving Russia" to go along with "Im denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine". and I want specifics please,thanks

You have repeatedly put the blame on the Ukrainian government, the Nazi ****s as you called them, while also holding that the EU and US have been responsible for ratcheting up the situation and are acting intentionally antagonistic towards Russia.

You didn't deny Russia's involvement in the Crimea, that was my mistake. I confused you with other posters.

mmmcake

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You have repeatedly put the blame on the Ukrainian government, the Nazi ****s as you called them, while also holding that the EU and US have been responsible for ratcheting up the situation and are acting intentionally antagonistic towards Russia.

You conveniently skip over the evidence of Ukrainian government forces atrocities against the population in east Ukraine.

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Really?

Hours later & this is what you come up with?

Despite census data to the contrary, refugees fleeing to Russia in large numbers trumps all.

Again I'll ask, where is your empirical breakdown backing yourself that the majority of civilian casualties are ethnic Russian?

Census doesn't reflect people with mixed origins, who can choose between two ethnic groups. It explain why between 1989 and 2001 number of ethnic Russians in Donetsk reduced by 20% without mass migration observed. It could only mean that some people decided to change their ethnic origins
This is how one of colleagues, who came from Donetsk, described this phenomenon

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You have repeatedly put the blame on the Ukrainian government, the Nazi ****s as you called them, while also holding that the EU and US have been responsible for ratcheting up the situation and are acting intentionally antagonistic towards Russia.

You didn't deny Russia's involvement in the Crimea, that was my mistake. I confused you with other posters.

ok so you were wrong in your claim that I had been denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine youve held your hand up thats fair enough.

"put the blame" what do you mean put the blame? what does that even mean. Ive stated many times the Kiev crew are a bunch of incompetent phucktards with fascist tendencies. and they are in my opinion. so what. the EU and US are responsible in some ways for ratcheting up the situation because they are involved in the situation. and its clear they are acting intentionally antagonistic toward Russia. its hardly love and roses is it. but how does that absolve Russia exactly? you said "absolving Russia"..absolving Russia from what exactly?...