Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

Census doesn't reflect people with mixed origins, who can choose between two ethnic groups. It explain why between 1989 and 2001 number of ethnic Russians in Donetsk reduced by 20% without mass migration observed. It could only mean that some people decided to change their ethnic origins
This is how one of colleagues, who came from Donetsk, described this phenomenon

Over 13 years, people emigrate.
Its entirely plausable that after the fall of communism, some Russians in the former vassal states would have emigrated to Russia.

And some may even decide to change ethnicity (which would be odd).

The fact remains that neither oblast is majority ethnically Russian.

So.... For the 4th time, About your assertation that "vast majority of civilian casualties are ethnic Russian".
When can we expect your data proving that?

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

ok so you were wrong in your claim that I had been denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine youve held your hand up thats fair enough.

"put the blame" what do you mean put the blame? what does that even mean. Ive stated many times the Kiev crew are a bunch of incompetent phucktards with fascist tendencies. and they are in my opinion. so what. the EU and US are responsible in some ways for ratcheting up the situation because they are involved in the situation. and its clear they are acting intentionally antagonistic toward Russia. its hardly love and roses is it. but how does that absolve Russia exactly? you said "absolving Russia"..absolving Russia from what exactly?...

As others have pointed out, the choices available to the EU is to do nothing and give tacit approval to Russia for it's actions or to stand up to the them in the form of condemnation and sanctions.

You have expressed the opinion the Ukraine isn't part of the EU, so it should be left to it's fate. What other meaning can be gleamed from that attitude that Russia is free to pursue whatever actions it feels are justified, as long as it's not an EU/ NATO country.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

As others have pointed out, the choices available to the EU is to do nothing and give tacit approval to Russia for it's actions or to stand up to the them in the form of condemnation and sanctions.

You have expressed the opinion the Ukraine isn't part of the EU, so it should be left to it's fate. What other meaning can be gleamed from that attitude that Russia is free to pursue whatever actions it feels are justified, as long as it's not an EU/ NATO country.

as others have pointed out. and what exactly have they pointed out. and that is relevant how?..ok so now its what you have "gleamed" from my "attitude". I dont give a sh1t what you may or may not have"gleamed":D, no offence. you said "absolving Russia"..absolving Russia from what exactly? be specific please.. and then show me where I did that.

Gatling

UN report on refugees in Ukraine put the number of refugees at 54, 000 as of June

Where the figures of 800,000 is coming from

Other than the kremlin I'll never know

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

UN report on refugees in Ukraine put the number of refugees at 54, 000 as of June

Where the figures of 800,000 is coming from

Other than the kremlin I'll never know

You should start read sources rather than prepared by White House propaganda

It's safe to say you have over a million people now displaced as a result of the conflict, internally and externally together," Vincent Cochetel, director of the UNHCR's bureau for Europe, later told reporters. "I mean 260,000 in Ukraine, it's a low estimate, 814,000 in Russia

http://unhcr.einnews.com/article_detail/221580297?lcode=Z6eX3gbDdppsWKz3EnwEKTAQJHORC0N6udAvE9XF73E%3D

Busted Flat.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

As others have pointed out, the choices available to the EU is to do nothing and give tacit approval to Russia for it's actions or to stand up to the them in the form of condemnation and sanctions.

You have expressed the opinion the Ukraine isn't part of the EU, so it should be left to it's fate. What other meaning can be gleamed from that attitude that Russia is free to pursue whatever actions it feels are justified, as long as it's not an EU/ NATO country.

Ukraine is immaterial, the US/EU/NATO are hell bent on starting a war to coverup their failed policies and bankrupt economies. The Ukraine is a handy place to start. It was already fúckéd by criminal oligarchs and their nazi armies. So why argue about it, its already in motion.

Gatling

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48159#.VBM4Usk1jqA

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Over 13 years, people emigrate.
Its entirely plausable that after the fall of communism, some Russians in the former vassal states would have emigrated to Russia.

And some may even decide to change ethnicity (which would be odd).

The fact remains that neither oblast is majority ethnically Russian.

I have no doubt that majority in Donetsk region, as it drown on maps, are Ukrainians, even map confirms that majority of area is covered by blue. You will see red dots, which mean Russian majority, mostly in areas which are not under Kiev control

Gatling

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Ukraine is immaterial, the US/EU/NATO are hell bent on starting a war to coverup their failed policies and bankrupt economies. The Ukraine is a handy place to start. It was already fúckéd by criminal oligarchs and their nazi armies. So why argue about it, its already in motion.

You mean fecked by Russian oligarchs and party henchmen ad well as criminals
Viktor Yanukovich had a salary of $ 2000 yet owned a house valued at 75 million and disappeared with billions to russia

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48159#.VBM4Usk1jqA

Nice try, but you failed again

Your link is from 27 June 2014, before Ukrainian army started to shell residential areas in Donets and Luhansk. My link is from Sep 2, 2014
Can we have discussion based on up-to-date facts?

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Nice try, but you failed again

Your link is from 27 June 2014, before Ukrainian army started to shell residential areas in Donets and Luhansk. My link is from Sep 2, 2014
Can we have discussion based on up-to-date facts?

As I said as of June do try to keep up


Your link is an article in the Daily telegraph (which suggests the link isn't official ) UN reports generally don't link to articles in newspapers

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

I have no doubt that majority in Donetsk region, as it drown on maps, are Ukrainians, even map confirms that majority of area is covered by blue. You will see red dots, which mean Russian majority, mostly in areas which are not under Kiev control

Again.... That map is not about ethnicity.
But about the primary spoken language....

You've been told this twice now.

So.... Still waiting for your data.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

as others have pointed out. and what exactly have they pointed out. and that is relevant how?..ok so now its what you have "gleamed" from my "attitude". I dont give a sh1t what you may or may not have"gleamed":D, no offence. you said "absolving Russia"..absolving Russia from what exactly? be specific please.. and then show me where I did that.

That attitude to me, is one of absolving Russia for their actions and giving them carte blanche to do as they please.

Your willingness for the EU to roll over in regards to Russia because it sells them gas is appeasement and fairly lacking in integrity.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That attitude to me, is one of absolving Russia for their actions and giving them carte blanche to do as they please.

Your willingness for the EU to roll over in regards to Russia because it sells them gas is appeasement and fairly lacking in integrity.

you have to be kidding me. Im now lacking integrity because you said so. really. you accused me of denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine - I asked you numerous times to back it up, which you couldnt. you then go through my post history and present some bullsh1t case of absolutely nothing. and then when you still cant back it up after a number of attempts you turn around and tell me you got it wrong as you mixed me up with someone else. and Im the one lacking in integrity.

you said "absolve Russia"and Id like you to back that up please. my "attitude" according to you. with all due respect your opinion means phuck all no offence. "willingness":D the EU has nothing to do with Ukraine. what part of that dont you get. you said "absolving Russia" absolving Russia of what? and I would like specifics please. you stated it, be good enough to back up what youre saying,thanks.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

you have to be kidding me. Im now lacking integrity because you said so. really. you accused me of denying Russian wrong doings in Ukraine - I asked you numerous times to back it up, which you couldnt. you then go through my post history and present some bullsh1t case of absolutely nothing. and then when you still cant back it up after a number of attempts you turn around and tell me you got it wrong as you mixed me up with someone else. and Im the one lacking in integrity.

you said "absolve Russia"and Id like you to back that up please. my "attitude" according to you. with all due respect your opinion means phuck all no offence. "willingness":D the EU has nothing to do with Ukraine. what part of that dont you get. you said "absolving Russia" absolving Russia of what? and I would like specifics please. you stated it, be good enough to back up what youre saying,thanks.

If you are unwilling to challenge Russia for it's predations in the Ukraine then you are absolving them.

It is an a betrayal of the principles upon which the EU was founded to turn you back on the Ukraine, if that's not a lack of integrity, I don't know what is.

You have said time again you don't give a **** about the Ukraine because it's not in the EU. Do you give a **** about the Palestinians, even though they are not a part of the EU?

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If you are unwilling to challenge Russia for it's predations in the Ukraine then you are absolving them.

It is an a betrayal of the principles upon which the EU was founded to turn you back on the Ukraine, if that's not a lack of integrity, I don't know what is.

You have said time again you don't give a **** about the Ukraine because it's not in the EU. Do you give a **** about the Palestinians, even though they are not a part of the EU?

here look, youve been caught out once already making false statements and called out on it. the above nonsense is an answer to nothing. its quite simple you stated something now back it up. you said "absolving Russia". so once again I will ask you absolving Russia from what?..and I want specifics. back it up please, thanks.

AbusesToilets

That is specific, you have been consistently unable to give an adequate response when challenged as to the consequences of the inaction that you have espoused.

If you can't give an explanation for your views then they don't have much merit for consideration. I made a mistake with regards your posts and owned it, you can keep throwing that out if you like but it doesn't change the speciousness of the argument you've put forth so far.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That is specific, you have been consistently unable to give an adequate response when challenged as to the consequences of the inaction that you have espoused.

If you can't give an explanation for your views then they don't have much merit for consideration. I made a mistake with regards your posts and owned it, you can keep throwing that out if you like up it doesn't change the speciousness of the argument you've put forth so far.

now hang on a second here. not only have you been caught out making things up on my behalf and stating them as fact you are still refusing to back up something else you stated...on my behalf. so please back it up. see that nonsense you are replying to me in the above thats all that is. because it has nothing to do with this > you said "absolve Russia" so once again can you please back up what you have stated here..absolve Russia from what?...what have I absolved Russia of? please be specific, I want specifics. thanks.

AbusesToilets

WakeUp wrote: »

now hang on a second here. not only have you been caught out making things up on my behalf and stating them as fact you are still refusing to back up something else you stated...on my behalf. so please back it up. see that nonsense you are replying to me in the above thats all that is. because it has nothing to do with this > you said "absolve Russia" so once again can you please back up what you have stated here..absolve Russia from what?...what have I absolved Russia of? please be specific, I want specifics. thanks.

I've given my argument, you have said that you don't want the EU to hold Russia responsible for it's actions by not imposing sanctions. True?

That to me is absolving them and allowing them to do as they please without repercussion.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I've given my argument, you have said that you don't want the EU to hold Russia responsible for it's actions by not imposing sanctions. True?

That to me is absolving them and allowing them to do as they please without repercussion.

youve given your argument. youre something else you know that. youve stated false statements and made things up and claimed them as so on my behalf. and been called out and caught out for it. so once again about that other thing you stated on my behalf, please can you tell me what it is exactly I have, in your words, "absolved Russia" of? and please be specific, thanks.

AbusesToilets

Keep dodging all you want, but your words are there for all to read.

Do you agree with EU sanctions against Russia, yes or no?

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Keep dodging all you want, but your words are there for all to read.

Do you agree with EU sanctions against Russia, yes or no?

youre unbelievable. once again, after already been caught out making false statements on my behalf, can you please back up what you said when you stated this "absolving Russia" what have I absolved Russia of? for the I dont know how many time. you stated that please back it up. be specific. and no I dont agree with the level of sanctions being imposed upon Russian energy companies by the EU. because I dont think they will work and Ukraine is not a member of the EU. now if you could be so kind as to please back up what you stated. "absolving Russia" absolving Russia of what?...you stated it, please back it up.

AbusesToilets

So you don't believe in taking any serious action against Russia. So if the EU do nothing, how is Russia penalised for it's actions? The Ukraine can be left to the wolves because they aren't in the EU.

Lovely sentiment there.

WakeUp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So you don't believe in taking any serious action against Russia. So if the EU do nothing, how is Russia penalised for it's actions? The Ukraine can be left to the wolves because they aren't in the EU.

Lovely sentiment there.

you really are unbelievable. please back up what you have said. you have already been called and caught out once making things up and making false statements on my behalf. notwithstanding the fact youve been caught out once already you also stated something else on my behalf > and id like you to back it up please. you said "absolving Russia"..what have I absolved Russia of? please be specific id like an answer please, thanks.

AbusesToilets

Here's an example from one of your earlier posts

Im not biased about anything. I just dont give a sh1t about Ukraine Im concerned about ourselves. all of the above maybe its true and if it is Im not going to argue against it. best thing Kiev could do is give the east more autonomy get the Russians back to table. and lets get back to business.

and another one

pointing out the sheer absurd stupidity of some of these sanctions is decrying the west. really. perhaps in your head it is but not in mine. stupidity is stupidity whomever responsible for it. sanctions are not going to work. so how are they measured. and once again, ive actually lost count of the amount times Ive pointed this out, but Ukraine has nothing to do with either the EU or Nato. so what are you even talking about a military response for. and lets say the Russians did shoot that plane down what do you think the EU should do about it. go to war with Russia over it?..sanction their energy companies and shoot ourselves in the foot? are these good ideas to you...

That's been a consistent view of yours, **** the Ukraine, they're not in the EU, so Russia can do whatever it likes because standing up to them would cause pain for the EU.

K-9

Mod: WakeUp and AbusesToilets, take it to pm please, it's derailing the thread.

Lemming

Count Dooku wrote: »

Nice try, but you failed again
Refugees will stay where they will feel safe, nobody was stopping them to use Russia as transit country, ie enter Russia in one checkpoint and leave in another

Ok. You've just undermined your own claim that because some 80%* of refugees have fled into Russia that they are ethnic Russians because they've fled into Russia. So they're not ethnic Russians, they're just getting out of harms way and the Russian border is closest whilst they go elsewhere. Which is exactly what I said belies the fallacy of your argument.


* unsubstantiated figure

mmmcake

Why is this been ignored?

amnesty.ie/news/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces

If it had a anti russian aspect certain posters would be all over it.

gandalf

mmmcake wrote: »

Why is this been ignored?

amnesty.ie/news/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces

If it had a anti russian aspect certain posters would be all over it.

Of course they should reign in these militias. I don't think you would find anyone arguing otherwise. Again this is not evidence of genocide, I don't think any of the posters here bandying around that label have shown a systematic genocide in place at all. So at this stage that label is a fallacy.

I also found this quote from that report interesting and quite telling and would be interested in your response to that or will your reading of these reports be selective and based on hearing bad things about one side and not the other.

“The Ukrainian authorities must not replicate the lawlessness and abuses that have prevailed in areas previously held by separatists,” said Salil Shetty, Amnesty International Secretary General from Kyiv.

http://www.amnesty.ie/news/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces

More reports from Amnesty about abuse and torture.

“The bulk of the abductions are being perpetrated by armed separatists, with the victims often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture. There is also evidence of a smaller number of abuses by pro-Kyiv forces.”

http://www.amnesty.ie/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture

Again both sides of guilty of these acts but they are not proof of a genocide. So can you please point to the proof of a systematic genocide that is not propaganda from the Moscow (Kremlin) media.

Count Dooku

Lemming wrote: »

Ok. You've just undermined your own claim that because some 80%* of refugees have fled into Russia that they are ethnic Russians because they've fled into Russia. So they're not ethnic Russians, they're just getting out of harms way and the Russian border is closest whilst they go elsewhere. Which is exactly what I said belies the fallacy of your argument.


* unsubstantiated figure

Guy from UNCHR said about 800K refugees fled "to Russia", not "through Russia". If you don't see the difference, then explain why loyal to Kiev ethnic ukrainians would stay in "country-aggressor"?