Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

K-9

Mod:

Keep it on topic please and attack the post, not the poster.

WakeUp

gandalf wrote: »

With regard to your second link Wakeup. Very surprised at Poroshenko delaying the EU deal given the original protests were what kicked off this whole crisis. It makes you wonder what did Putin say to him on those calls. I have a feeling it involved the threat of a lot more Russian boots on Ukrainian soil.

Wakeup I don't believe Putin has the financial wiggle room to turn off the gas tap for any extended period of time. It will certainly result in severe short term problems for Gazprom that could end up being terminal. How will things look if a percentage or if all their employees are laid off, you're talking about up to half a million workers if you believe the employee numbers from some sources for Gazprom.

Now with oil prices on a downward spiral the Russian Federation cannot afford any more hits to it Revenue. Remember they now have to back up the promises made to all the inhabitants of the Crimea with regard to pensions and state company wages.

And don't forget if he does turn off the gas tap it will logically initiate more reaction in even more punitive sanctions from Europe.

I dont think Poroshenko had much choice because if the Russians then imposed further trade sanctions upon Ukraine it would have finished them off. and looking a little more into what happened Europe just blinked first.

The Russians dont need to turn off the gas completely all they have to do is incrementally adjust their output. it wont take much to cause an affect. its quite clear to me and has been for a while that sanctions arent working and will not work not matter how far they go. the Russians have made their bed sanctions will not make them back down Im not sure what is giving people the impression they will, I dont see it I see the opposite. whether we like it or not they gives us our energy. and we need them. its just the cold hard reality of the situation.
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Whatever Russia does, doubt does not even enter the equation. The answer is sanctions. So here we go again. No one ever lost money betting on the stupidity of the usual, unknown “senior US officials” – who are now spinning the latest sanction package is to force Moscow to “respect international law and state sovereignty.” A cursory examination of the historical record allows this paragraph to be accompanied by roaring laughter. As for Russia’s "isolation", companies are barred from, in Washington-Wall Street newspeak, "important dollar-denominated funding sources." Or, euphemistically, "Western capital." This means the US dollar and the euro. Anyone following superimposed moves towards a multipolar world knows Russia does not need more US dollars and euro.

Moscow might use both to cross-purchase goods and services in the US and the EU. Yet these goods and services may be bought elsewhere around the world. For that, you don’t need “Western capital” – as Moscow is fast advancing the use of national currencies with other trade partners. The Atlanticist gang assumes Moscow needs goods and services from the US and the EU much more than the other way around. That’s a fallacy.

Russia can sell its abundant energy resources in any currency apart from US dollars and euro. Russia can buy all the clothing it needs from Asia and South America. On the electronics and high-tech front, most of it is made in China anyway.

Crucially, on the energy front, it would be no less than thrilling to watch the EU – which still does not even have a common energy policy - trying to come up with alternative suppliers. Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Qatar, for a number of complex reasons – ranging from insufficient gas to be committed, to an absence of pipelines – are out of the picture.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-17/guest-post-us-eu-russia-sanctions-puzzle

and now this in Crimea...

Just a day after NATO began military exercises (with troops from the US) near the city of Lviv in Western Ukraine, WSJ reports Russia's Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu is responding to the "rising foreign military presence," near Russia. In a not-so-de-escalatory move, Shoigu explained that NATO's comments were "light-minded" and his ministry's key task now is to "deploy a full-scale and self-sufficient force grouping" in the Crimea region.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-17/russia-deploy-full-scale-military-unit-crimea

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Next we have the claims of a coup in Kiev. A phone call released by Russian Intelligence is the pillar of this evidence. Lets invert this. If US Intelligence released a phone call where Sergey Lavrov was saying similar things people would quite rightly laugh it off rather than put 1 + 1 together and get 100 and a conspiracy theory about regime change. As far as I am concerned that one is a non runner unless there is other evidence that comes to light.

And what about fact that first USA official, who visited Kiev was director of CIA?

BoJack Horseman

Count Dooku wrote: »

And what about fact that first USA official, who visited Kiev was director of CIA?

It goes back to : so bloody what?

What part of that justifies the Kremlin conquering a weaker neighbour?

Count Dooku

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It goes back to : so bloody what?

What part of that justifies the Kremlin conquering a weaker neighbour?

Kiev should learn first how to respect Russian speaking minority first
Nobody was invading to Ukraine before Russian speaking were declared as scapegoats for all mess what Ukrainians did themselves. Since Kosovo it is nothing illegal in protecting minorities by military force

aloyisious

Count Dooku wrote: »

Kiev should learn first how to respect Russian speaking minority first
Nobody was invading to Ukraine before Russian speaking were declared as scapegoats for all mess what Ukrainians did themselves. Since Kosovo it is nothing illegal in protecting minorities by military force

It's generally helpful to any situation if the host country does it, not a neighbours army.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Kiev should learn first how to respect Russian speaking minority first
Nobody was invading to Ukraine before Russian speaking were declared as scapegoats for all mess what Ukrainians did themselves.

At least someone agrees on the invasion,

Face it the population get fed up been russian puppets the invasion was a propaganda inspired classical KGB operation

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

At least someone agrees on the invasion,

Face it the population get fed up been russian puppets the invasion was a propaganda inspired classical KGB operation

Actually it was a CIA operation. This is why director of CIA was first USA official to visit Ukraine after coup

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Actually it was a CIA operation. This is why director of CIA was first USA official to visit Ukraine after coup

And which separatist leader was given a higher post in Moscow who also was also former KGB who just happened to be in east Ukraine when it all kicked off

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

And which separatist leader was given a higher post in Moscow who also was also former KGB who just happened to be in east Ukraine when it all kicked off

Do you mean that FSB has nobody better than their former employee known all around Europe by his photos as Roman emperor?

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

And what about fact that first USA official, who visited Kiev was director of CIA?

Again that is proof of absolutely nothing. You're taking 1+1 and getting 100.

As has been pointed out why until recently were the majority of the leaders of the "rebels" people from outside the region who had held positions of responsibility closely aligned with the Kremlin?

Don't worry as I have stated in the thread in After Hours soon Russians won't have to worry about getting alternative points of view once they turn off global internet access.

As I said Russia is following in the footsteps of North Korea.

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Again that is proof of absolutely nothing. You're taking 1+1 and getting 100.

Everybody see what he wants to see and what capable to see, actually 1+1 is 10

gandalf wrote: »

As has been pointed out why until recently were the majority of the leaders of the "rebels" people from outside the region who had held positions of responsibility closely aligned with the Kremlin?

What wrong with nationalists on state service? Few opportunists with experience came to do what like to do, no need for Kremlin at all

gandalf wrote: »

Don't worry as I have stated in the thread in After Hours soon Russians won't have to worry about getting alternative points of view once they turn off global internet access.

I sure that they seen already true face of "alternative points" when Western media were hiding military crimes of Ukrainian army and paramilitaries. Somehow Russia managed to overthrow communists without any internet

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

Everybody see what he wants to see and what capable to see, actually 1+1 is 10

Well it is obvious that you see what you want to

What wrong with nationalists on state service? Few opportunists with experience came to do what like to do, no need for Kremlin at all

I can understand people volunteering for a cause but not being the leadership of the cause. Not having leaders who are from the region stinks of outside interference wouldn't you agree?

I sure that they seen already true face of "alternative points" when Western media were hiding military crimes of Ukrainian army and paramilitaries.

Can you post proof of this please, specifically that Western media were hiding crimes?

Amnesty International posted a report recently that highlighted abuse on both sides of the conflict. It did state that the majority of crimes occurred on the rebel side though.

Somehow Russia managed to overthrow communists without any internet

Are you sure they have been overthrown, from my perspective they have just repackaged themselves. Look at all the former KGB leaders in positions of power in "Modern" Russia.

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Well it is obvious that you see what you want to

Because I know more (for example 1+1 can be 2 or 10). so I can afford to choose side which looks more realistic

gandalf wrote: »

I can understand people volunteering for a cause but not being the leadership of the cause. Not having leaders who are from the region stinks of outside interference wouldn't you agree?

Initially leaders were local, for example Khodokovskiy in Donetsk or Ponamarev in Slavyansk, but they been replaced after it become clear that they less competent than those who came from Russia

gandalf wrote: »

Can you post proof of this please, specifically that Western media were hiding crimes?

Can you post any article from Sindo, mentioning "indiscriminate shelling of residential areas" from somewhere around May when it become clear that Ukrainian army will use terror tactic to force rebels to withdraw

gandalf wrote: »

Amnesty International posted a report recently that highlighted abuse on both sides of the conflict. It did state that the majority of crimes occurred on the rebel side though.

Keyword "recently", when it become clear that Western media are not capable to stop leaking evidences about crimes committed by Ukrainian army

gandalf wrote: »

Are you sure they have been overthrown, from my perspective they have just repackaged themselves. Look at all the former KGB leaders in positions of power in "Modern" Russia.

People in Russia tried "democracy" under leadership of always drunk Yeltsin and realised that it doesn't work as it been promised

aloyisious

Interesting story of attitude in reportedly majority-Russian-speaking Ukrainian City, Kharkiv.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/ukrainian-protesters-tear-down-countrys-largest-statue-of-lenin-30623968.html

Gatling

aloyisious wrote: »

Interesting story of attitude in reportedly majority-Russian-speaking Ukrainian City, Kharkiv.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/ukrainian-protesters-tear-down-countrys-largest-statue-of-lenin-30623968.html

I'm sure valdamir putin is having his statue made to replace Lenin

BoJack Horseman

aloyisious wrote: »

Interesting story of attitude in reportedly majority-Russian-speaking Ukrainian City, Kharkiv.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/ukrainian-protesters-tear-down-countrys-largest-statue-of-lenin-30623968.html

Shame.
I would have kept it.

The "Russian speaking" thing is a misnomer.
It does neither equal ethnicity nor political leaning.
Yet is often used as an assumption of same.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Shame.
I would have kept it.

Why.?


Been it's been pretty quite till today in Ukraine

"Operation Rapid Trident " has been taking place over the last 2 weeks in Ukraine a Nato led exercise

"The multi-national exercise led by the Ukrainian and United States Armies bought together more than 1300 personnel from the 12 nations including Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Georgia, Germany, Moldova, Poland and Romania.
"Almost 1000 pieces of weaponry, hundreds of combat vehicles and several military aircraft were involved in the Exercise which developed multi-national interoperability as well as enhancing the soldiers’ individual skills by learning from their overseas counterparts.

Though the kremlin has been quite

Elmer Blooker

Yes, it has been unusually quiet lately. I suppose the mass graves now being found in territory that was held by Ukrainian forces isn't worth a mention in our free western media.
I remember a few months ago Ukraine completely disappeared off the news headlines, Gaza and even the World Cup were the big stories but of course everything changed after July 17th.

aloyisious

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Shame.
I would have kept it.

The "Russian speaking" thing is a misnomer.
It does neither equal ethnicity nor political leaning.
Yet is often used as an assumption of same.

I was thinking the same myself, media throwing in an odd "fact or two" to liven up the story. I hope the parts of his face "removed" in the video are kept the same as parts of the Wall and Nelson's pillar.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yes, it has been unusually quiet lately. I suppose the mass graves now being found in territory that was held by Ukrainian forces isn't worth a mention

Supposed mass graves 3 bodies is hardly massive masscres ,

Maybe check out mass graves from bosnia and the current situation in iraq to understand the idea of a Mass grave

realweirdo

Is it quiet? From the news it seems the separatists are still shelling government areas.
When the government returns fire, the separatists will cry foul and appeal to Moscow for help. The separatists seem desperate to involve Russia in all of this, no matter how costly to all sides it would be.

BoJack Horseman

realweirdo wrote: »

Is it quiet? From the news it seems the separatists are still shelling government areas.
When the government returns fire, the separatists will cry foul and appeal to Moscow for help. The separatists seem desperate to involve Russia in all of this, no matter how costly to all sides it would be.

Some tragic loss of life today with a school area coming under fire from a stray shell (seemingly rebel).

Sporadic occurances, but the ceasefire such as it is seems to be holding.

Gatling

Looks like rebels are making a major push for donesk airport again .
And the majority of Russian troops and equipment are still in east ukraine.

I can see things getting dragged out until the Ukrainian government elections take place

realweirdo

Lets be honest, the separatists have zero interest in peace. They just keep trying to bait the Ukrainian government into a response.

The ceasefire is as good as over from what I can see and its back to fighting as usual. All because of the separatists who want to take over an already destroyed airport. Have they any sense?

Gatling

realweirdo wrote: »

Lets be honest, the separatists have zero interest in peace. They just keep trying to bait the Ukrainian government into a response.

The ceasefire is as good as over from what I can see and its back to fighting as usual. All because of the separatists who want to take over an already destroyed airport. Have they any sense?

Apparently the runwsays are intact they take the airport completely expect a lot of russian heavy transports to start rolling in on a daily basis with supplies ,

What the Ukrainian's should is set up an airdefence network all around the airport to make the sky unusable to the Russians ,
Then ask Poland and the other baltic states to send peacekeeper's to secure the border area's and ports

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

Apparently the runwsays are intact they take the airport completely expect a lot of russian heavy transports to start rolling in on a daily basis with supplies ,

Why Ukrainian army didn't destroy runways if airport is still within reach of Ukrainian artillery?
Do they want Russian heavy transports start rolling in order to hide own crimes and present themselves as victim of aggression?

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why Ukrainian army didn't destroy runways if airport is still within reach of Ukrainian artillery?
Do they want Russian heavy transports start rolling in order to hide own crimes and present themselves as victim of aggression?

Let me geuss the little green man fan club.

Ukraine is the aggressor in all of this

Like seriously

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

Let me geuss the little green man fan club.

Ukraine is the aggressor in all of this

Like seriously

Do you mean I should admire Ukrainian efforts to get rid of Russian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine?

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you mean I should admire Ukrainian efforts to get rid of Russian speaking population in Eastern Ukraine?

What efforts were they exactly