Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

WakeUp

cerastes wrote: »

I dont know what the graphs and indicators above mean, depressing/depreciating the Rouble, reducing the value they get from their exports, increasing the costs of running things for them.
Whats to say they wont lash out, Im kind of suprised they wont, or that they wont either directly or by some proxy launch some kind of attack (I mean cyber attack in response, but maybe something else too), it looks like they are being openly assailed by outside forces. Even if Putin falls frome grace, its hard to see how the Russian populace couldnt have any problems pointed out to them as being caused by the US/Western influence, maybe that message will get through before they tire of him or maybe they will think they need him now more than ever? surely the western economies are as fragile and susceptible to intervention?

The rouble has been under attack from foreign investment funds/speculators it was being leveraged to the max and shorted. so the Russian central bank increased its interests rates dramatically to try stem the flow. and you can tell this was happening or something along those lines as trading of the rouble has now been suspended in the states ill post a comment from another thread which gives a possible explanation as to why or how the collapse is being orchestrated. whatever idea there was about "free" market has just become a myth if it wasnt one already. what is happening now cant be just down to market forces alone or fundamentals something is afoot.

The Russian Ruble Is Hereby Halted Until Further Notice

Earlier, we reported that various currency brokers such as FXCM and FxPro, would - as a result of the soaring liquidity in the USDRUB pair - suspend trading in the Russian Ruble (while other merely hiked margins to ridiculous levels). It appears things have escalated again, and as FXCM just reported, instead of just politely advising clients not to open new USDRUB position tomorrow, it has advised anyone long, or short, the USDRUB that their positions will be forcibly shut in moments.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-16/russian-ruble-hereby-halted-until-further-notice

taking a comment from the zh thread..

Russia sells oil in dollars, but produce oil in rubles. So, if you are an oil company, in Russia, you sell your product (dollars), convert to rubles, and pay your workers. If you need foreign tech, you likely pay in dollars (savings from product sales that were not converted).

Given banks lend (i.e. create money from nothing) in all currencies, and there are accounts out there with balances, one could borrow Yen at 0%, and short rubles. Lever this position and the more the ruble goes down, the more there is to make. FX is a very large market, but it doesn't mean things can't be pushed around.

Russia pulled a Volker and jacked rates, so whoever was (naked?) shorting the ruble was completely ****ed if they didn't get out of their position about as fast as possible. Count the MINUTES between the rate hike announcement, the open of markets (in the US), and the shutting down of USD/RBL trades so they could cover.

Very, very connected players.

So, yes, Russia DID short squeeze and the US pulled another MF Global style save of their insider asses at everyone elses expense. But I think this is more a sign of weakness than anything else because despite their "insider-ness" they totally didn't see this coming so maybe they aren't really all that clever.

All that said, if Russia is pushed out of the dollar market (i.e. all the other nations go along with the USD/RBL suspension) they will be denied the ability to participate econnomically with many other businesses/countries.

If it gets to that poinnt, and your BRIC style countries abandon the dollar, it is pretty much a set up for WWIII. But for now, it is in a sense a "hot" financial war going on, not fully kinetic yet. But the risk is growing.

_________________________________________________________________________

western banks some of them are starting to feel the knock on effect already.

We recently noted the rise of counterparty risks in the financial system due to oil prices dropping (and leveraged derivative exposures) but as the Russia situation has deteriorated so dramatically this week, a renewed focus on bank exposures has sent stocks reeling (and credit risk soaring) among many European (and US) banks. As Bloomberg reports, Raiffeisen Bank International and Societe Generale, the European banks with most at stake in Russia, led European lenders lower. Raiffeisen fell as much as 10.3% to 11.40 euros in Vienna, the lowest level since it went public in 2005. Societe Generale dropped as much as 7.3% to 31.85 euros, hitting the lowest intraday level since August 2013. CDS markets for both also exploded with Raffeisen risk at 27 month highs. As one analyst noted, "There remains a huge amount of uncertainty at this juncture, but the key point is that there are no benign scenarios." While not on the same scale, US bank risk has also widened signicantly in recent weeks (despite equity strength).

Credity risk is surging...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-16/russia-contagion-spreads-european-banks-french-socgen-austrian-raiffeisen-plummet

Dannyboy83

WakeUp wrote: »

whatever idea there was about "free" market has just become a myth if it wasnt one already. what is happening now cant be just down to market forces alone or fundamentals something is afoot.

What do you think is afoot?
How do you account for Capital Flight & the looming threat of Capital Controls & the tax amnesty on Capital Inflow from 1st Jan?

Dannyboy83

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2014/12/16122014-russian-inflation-hot-but.html
"In simple economic terms, everyone around the world would benefit from Russia stepping off the financial precipice line as soon as possible."
Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev

"In simple economic terms, everyone around the world would benefit from Russia, and other oil-rich nations, stepping off the financial precipice as soon as possible."
Bryan MacDonald, Russia Today
http://on.rt.com/kfgbbb

Blatant plagiarism, smh......

The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author:rolleyes: and do not necessarily represent those of RT.

AndonHandon

WakeUp wrote: »

The rouble has been under attack from foreign investment funds/speculators it was being leveraged to the max and shorted. so the Russian central bank increased its interests rates dramatically to try stem the flow. and you can tell this was happening or something along those lines as trading of the rouble has now been suspended in the states ill post a comment from another thread which gives a possible explanation as to why or how the collapse is being orchestrated. whatever idea there was about "free" market has just become a myth if it wasnt one already. what is happening now cant be just down to market forces alone or fundamentals something is afoot

A corrupt government operating disgraceful economic policies for years with the chickens finally coming home to roost? The economic sanctions have only exposed a poor economy.

Icepick

They still have dollars to pay shills I see.

Only a megalomaniac totalitarian regime can try to portrait an economic catastrophe as a victory.

Gatling

Wonder where all the posters who claimed russia could withstand sanctions have gone to ,

I get the feeling Putin's 80+ % popularity will start sliding in the next few weeks

WakeUp

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What do you think is afoot?
How do you account for Capital Flight & the looming threat of Capital Controls & the tax amnesty on Capital Inflow from 1st Jan?

a coordinated attempt to crash and burn the Russian economy which gos way beyond sanctions to punish them. its an attempt to destroy them. capital flight was happening for a number of reasons before the rouble started tumbling if we are believe what the Russians are now saying capital controls will not be put in place. the capital inflow amnesty isnt really relevant to what has happened. Putin is set to make a speech later today in moscow maybe midday our time. we will know then exactly what the Russians are thinking and intend to do.

AndonHandon wrote: »

A corrupt government operating disgraceful economic policies for years with the chickens finally coming home to roost? The economic sanctions have only exposed a poor economy.

if you believe what is happening is down to economic sanctions and sanctions alone I would suggest you are mistaken. leaving morals aside as there is no such thing there isnt a country on earth that hasnt been touched by corruption at one stage or the other. maybe the Chinese are getting ready to step in...

_________________________________________________________________________

China Prepares To Bailout Russia

Earlier this evening China's State Administration of Foreign Exchange's (SAFE) Wang Yungui noted "the impact of the Russian Ruble depreciation was unclear yet, and, as Bloomberg reported, "SAFE is closely watching Ruble's depreciation and encouraging companies to hedge Ruble risks." His comments also echoed the ongoing FX reform agenda aimed at increasing Yuan flexibility which The South China Morning Post then hinted in a story entitled "Russia may seek China help to deal with crisis," which which noted that Russia could fall back on its 150 billion yuan ($24 billion) currency swap agreement with China if the ruble continues to plunge, that was signed in October. Furthermore, two bankers close to the PBOC reportedly said the swap-line was meant to reduce the role of the US dollar if China and Russia need to help each other overcome a liquidity squeeze.

Russia could fall back on its 150 billion yuan (HK$189.8 billion) currency swap agreement with China if the rouble continues to plunge.

If the swap deal is activated for this purpose, it would mark the first time China is called upon to use its currency to bail out another currency in crisis. The deal was signed by the two central banks in October, when Premier Li Keqiang visited Russia.

"Russia badly needs liquidity support and the swap line could be an ideal tool," said Bank of Communications chief economist Lian Ping.

The swap allows the central banks to directly buy yuan and rouble in the two currencies, rather than via the US dollar.

Two bankers close to the People's Bank of China said it was meant to reduce the role of the US dollar if China and Russia need to help each other overcome a liquidity squeeze.

China has currency swap deals with more than 20 monetary authorities around the world. Swaps are generally used to settle trade.

"The yuan-rouble swap deal was not just a financial matter," said Wang Feng, chairman of Shanghai-based private equity group Yinshu Capital. "It has political implications as it is a sign of mutual trust."

The rouble has lost more than 50 per cent against the US dollar this year, pushing Russia to the brink of a currency crisis, though measures announced by the central bank helped it recover some ground yesterday.

Li Lifan, a researcher at the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, said the swap would not be enough for Russia even if it is used in its entirety. "The PBOC might agree to extend something like 15 billion yuan initially as a way of showing China's commitment to Russia."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-17/china-prepares-bailout-russia

now if the Chinese way in behind Russia on this things are going to get very interesting very quickly. lets see what putin has to say later on I wonder do some people realise how serious a situation this is. it might appear or is being portrayed in western media that the writing is on the wall for Russia. but I think this is only the beginning.

Egginacup

The deliberate forcing down of the price of oil is a tactic that the US have engineered in order to wreck the Russian economy. Kerry's meeting with the Saudis some weeks back was to kickstart overproduction in order to force the price down. $80 or $90 a barrel, I think is the break-even point for Russian oil so for sure the tactic is going to have some effect, but......and it's a very BIG but, the US as usual cannot see the big picture or the long game like so many on here. They think that Russian oil to Europe can be substituted by US produced shale oil (it can't!). Already the shale oil companies are feeling the pinch too from the price drops and something like 20% of the companies tapping shale oil have folded. After a year or so OPEC countries are going to say "enough is enough" and drive the price back up to over $100.
Not only that but the drop in the price of oil and the rise in the (overinflated) value of the dollar has given Russia an opportunity that it is currently capitalizing on. Russia sells oil for dollars. Bear in mind that 1 in every 6 light-bulbs in the US is also powered by Russian uranium. That's right, so the US is also buying Russian uranium for dollars. And what is Vlad doing with all these dollars? Simple, he's buying all the underpriced gold he can get his hands on.
He will also start selling Russian oil to China and it will not be sold in dollars. It doesn't matter what the price of oil is in dollars at that stage because it will be irrelevant. Russia could sell oil for roubles, bitcoins or arrow-heads, it doesn't matter because the currency it's sold in will find its own appropriate value. That currency in turn will be used to purchase Chinese products.
the Russo-Turkish pipeline deal will bring Turkey into Russia's economic orbit and will cause further pain to the Southern European economies that were dumb enough to follow Washington's instructions against their own interests. But Putin has left just enough wiggle room in his speeches for the EU to quietly apologise for trying to play hardball over the South Stream pipeline and ask for a second chance to get oil at 30% cheaper via South Stream than what they're going to have to buy from the Turkish terminal anyway. That's just how Putin operates. He's a grown-up and doesn't stoop to petty tactics for short-term sh!ts and giggles like the cretins in Washington.

Lemming

US! US! US!

Have you ever - for once - considered that it's not the US doing this, but OPEC - or Saudi in particular - trying to squeeze Venuezelan and Nigerian oil exports that have muscled into traditional markets due to OPEC production cuts in the past. That they then get to inflict misery on the UK and US energy production markets is added benefit; because it leaves them [OPEC/Saudi] as last man standing to buy from.

That Russia is getting belted by this, on top of sanctions, is the perfect storm. All from a rod that Russia has made for its own back.

gandalf

Copying a reply from the economy forum discussion about Russia. This has more to do with the Saudis and OPEC trying to kill shale oil. If Russia is being punished its by the Saudis for supporting Syria over any American instructions.


http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/28/investing/opec-oil-price-us-shale/

OPEC is betting lower oil prices will force U.S. producers to throw up the white flag and cut back on production because they won't be able to turn a profit.

"The gauntlet has been thrown down for Western Hemisphere producers like Brazil, Canada and the United States," Bespoke Investment Group wrote in a note to clients on Friday.

Dot-com bust all over again? The fear is that OPEC's hard line could cause a pull back in the U.S. shale industry, sparking job losses and causing panic in the financial markets.

That's what Russian oil tycoon Leonid Fedun is predicting, although Russia isn't part of OPEC.

"The shale boom is on par with the dot-com boom. The strong players will remain, the weak ones will vanish," he told Bloomberg News on Thursday.

The OPEC move has clearly spooked investors, who sent energy stocks like Halliburton (HAL), Helmerich & Payne (HP) and Schlumberger (SLB) plummeting on Friday. (U.S. markets were closed for Thanksgiving Day on Thursday).

If Saudis are targeting the Russians it's because of their support of the Syrian regime not because of instructions from the US. Of course it is the Russians stupidity that have put then in this vulnerable position.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/12/15/saudi-arabia-is-playing-chicken-with-its-oil/

The kingdom has two targets in its latest oil war: it is trying to squeeze U.S. shale oil—which requires higher prices to remain competitive with conventional production—out of the market. More broadly, the Saudis are also punishing two rivals, Russia and Iran, for their support of Bashar al-Assad’s regime in the Syrian civil war. Since the Syrian uprising began in 2011, regional and world powers have played out a series of proxy battles there.

At the current price the industry might grind to a halt.

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21635505-will-falling-oil-prices-curb-americas-shale-boom-bind

Wood Mackenzie, a research consultancy, estimates that the “break-even price” of American projects is clustered around $65-70, suggesting many are vulnerable (these calculations exclude some sunk costs, such as building roads). If the oil price stays at $70, it estimates investment will be cut by 20% and production growth for America could slow to 10% a year. At $60, investment could drop by as much as half and production growth grind to a halt.

And it looks like OPEC are paying for keeps and are willing to drop the price as low as $40 a barrel. Why not they get to hurt 3 targets with one action.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-14/u-a-e-says-opec-won-t-change-output-even-if-price-drops-to-40.html

OPEC will stand by its decision not to cut output even if oil prices fall as low as $40 a barrel and will wait at least three months before considering an emergency meeting, the United Arab Emirates’ energy minister said.

Icepick

It must be a conspiracy because Putin's regime propaganda told me so...

Sand

You have to enjoy the conspiracy theories about Russia's recent troubles. In a fit of rage they attacked a neighbouring sovereign state, annexed its territory, gave the two fingers to the rest of the world with its nonsensical denials, continued to attack and destabilise Ukraine and shot down a fricking airliner.

What exactly did Putin think would happen? That everyone would tug the forelock, go "Right you are sir!" and toddle off? The response so far has been incredibly mild despite huge Russian provocations.

InTheTrees

Sand wrote: »

You have to enjoy the conspiracy theories about Russia's recent troubles. In a fit of rage they attacked a neighbouring sovereign state, annexed its territory, gave the two fingers to the rest of the world with its nonsensical denials, continued to attack and destabilise Ukraine and shot down a fricking airliner.

What exactly did Putin think would happen? That everyone would tug the forelock, go "Right you are sir!" and toddle off? The response so far has been incredibly mild despite huge Russian provocations.

I know. "Conspiracy"?

Well duh. Of course there's a conspiracy.

Posturing megalomaniac putin openly threatens the west and now this is happening to his country.

What did he expect?

bobs ur uncle

my god do you people actually think that russia is the bad guy and america is the good guy in all this? for the love of god stop watching mainstream media.. they will have you believe that russia is the evil one but that simply isnt true..

just today obama signed a new bill allowing the US to provide "lethal aid" to ukraine which out right proves that the US' intentions are not that of de-escalation in the region and rather the oposite. if you people genuinely think that the US has only the best of intentions think again..

they also in the last week or so signed into law that the US tax payer is now "on the hook" for all derivative trading of major banks.. the FDIC supposedly insures all bank deposits up ~250k or something but the FDIC would have to take the banks to court and cover loses from derivative trading prior to cover bank deposits as deposits are now considered "investments" into the bank. have a guess who wrote the part of the bill that put the tax payer "on the hook".. no other than citibank itself.. literally copied word for word and then slipped in with the spending bill - which if not passed - would shut government departments all over the country down in a matter of weeks or months. the bill HAD to be passed - and therefore also the part written by citigroup.

the US also only ever gets involved in wars that promote their own interests.. ask yourselves why the US backs isreal even though they have zero right to that land? because they have an agreement with the US that if the US backs them militarily, isreal gives them full rights to resources in isreal.. now ask what is the incentive to take over gaza(palistine)? theres a massive oil field off the coast of gaza that they cant get rights to - until they wipe out gaza and take the coastline.

dont for a second doubt that the US is the instigator in all of this. they already have "military advisers"(troops) in ukraine and now they are going to arm them with tanks and other lethal aid.. russia will (rightly so) move troops into east ukraine as pre-emptive measure and the US will plaster it all over the news as "aggression" when in reality it is simply a reaction to the US aggression.

stop watching mainstream media and stop accepting everything you hear on the propaganda box as truth.. question everything you hear.. ask yourself who owns the media outlets and what their incentives are. question everything.

oscarBravo

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

question everything.

...unless it's on RT.

gandalf

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

stop watching mainstream media and stop accepting everything you hear on the propaganda box as truth.. question everything you hear.. ask yourself who owns the media outlets and what their incentives are. question everything.

Maybe you should ask the question "does the average Russian have this luxury", I think you will find the answer today is a resounding no.

InTheTrees

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

stop watching mainstream media and stop accepting everything you hear on the propaganda box as truth.. question everything you hear.. ask yourself who owns the media outlets and what their incentives are. question everything.

Oh god kid, if you could hear yourself.

Anyone who disagrees with you is just a slave to rupert murdoch and the us corporate controlled news media right?

And probably Israel too.

bobs ur uncle

Former Assistant Treasury Secretary Dr. Paul Craig Roberts thinks the only thing that explains the plunge in the Russian ruble is that it is being attacked by America. Roberts contends, “It is not a currency crash in the sense there are no economic reasons for the ruble’s fall. Unlike the United States, which has a massive trade deficit, and if the currency markets were not rigged, the dollar would be collapsing, the Russian economy has a trade surplus. Therefore, there is no pressure on its currency for economic conditions.” Dr. Roberts goes on to say, “This is not some independent action of market forces. So, it’s either hedge funds, currency speculators like Soros, or it’s an Act of War on behalf of the United States government by the Federal Reserve or the Exchange Stabilization Fund. . . or possibly both hedge funds working with the federal government.”

Manipulating the markets, any market, is supposed to be illegal, but don’t count on the bankers going to jail. Dr. Roberts, who has a PhD in economics, thinks, “The big banks, the big Wall Street money, are essentially agents of the government. This is why they don’t get prosecuted. This is why they can break all kinds of laws, commit felonies and settle with a fine. This is what we’ve been watching in the financial arena. When these financial gangsters are caught, instead of being indicted and put on trial, they pay money.”

How could the Russians retaliate? Dr. Roberts says, “If the Russians wanted to do payback, it’s very easy for them. The next time all of these contracts, paper gold contracts, are dumped on the futures market, the Russians need to go and buy them all up, then demand delivery because there is no gold to deliver. The whole system would collapse. So, the Russians could cause a gold squeeze here anytime they want. . . . They would blow the system wide open because they can’t make delivery.”

On war, Dr. Roberts says recent resolutions passed in Congress certainly point to it. Dr. Roberts explains, “These resolutions demonize Russia and define it as a great threat. They call on Obama to arm the Ukrainians so we can use the Ukrainians to fight Russia. In other words, we are going to fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian. Of course, the Ukraine can’t fight Russia. The whole purpose of this is to have the Russians slap them down, then we can go to the Europeans and say see, see the Russians invaded and look how dangerous they are. You’re next. They will be in Berlin tomorrow. They’ll be in London by the end of the week. Paris will fall, and Rome will burn. We can’t wait to tell the Europeans this because the whole purpose of this is to completely break every kind of relationship, economic, political and cultural, between Russia and Europe. That’s what Washington’s goal is. That’s what it’s all about. This includes attacks on the ruble and sanctions. They are setting up a war that nobody can win, for what reason? For American superiority? You don’t have superiority if the world is awash in radioactive waste and there is nuclear winter. The climate has collapsed. The whole thing is an absurdity.”

On the teetering economy and possible economic collapse, Dr. Roberts says, “We know something serious is wrong. The only provision of Dodd-Frank that has any teeth is the provision that says if the big banks are going to be casinos and gamble on derivatives, they cannot do that in the depository institution where depositors have their accounts. They have to farm it out into subsidiaries. So, if the subsidiaries get into trouble, the subsidiaries have no access to depositors’ money. This is the only real reform part of Dodd-Frank. Citigroup got put into the recent spending bill, the repeal of this, so they can gamble on derivatives, and taxpayers and depositors are on the hook for the losses. Why would you do that unless you had a lot of derivatives trouble. It could easily be the oil derivatives. . . . The banks can gamble all they want and they are covered by the FDIC, which has no money. . . . This gives the banks access to depositors’ money. . . . This is sick, and it shows the United States government is the most corrupt government on earth, far more corrupt than Russia or China.”

bobs ur uncle

gandalf wrote: »

Maybe you should ask the question "does the average Russian have this luxury", I think you will find the answer today is a resounding no.

your joking right?

the average russian person is not the problem. the problem is western media and a complacent/ignorant western populace. its the US that is the aggressor in urkraine/iraq/syria/Palestine/afganistan and so on and so on.. the list is endless.

if the US is so keen on promoting "global democracy" why havnt they put an end to the crap that goes on in nations like n.korea or countries in africa plagued by civil wars that have lasted generations..

pull your head out of the sand and take a look around.

and i love the fact that that line is the only line people pulled me on and not anything else i mentioned.

Lemming

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

Former Assistant Treasury Secretary Dr. Paul Craig Roberts thinks the only thing that explains the plunge in the Russian ruble is that it is being attacked by America. Roberts contends, “It is not a currency crash in the sense there are no economic reasons for the ruble’s fall. Unlike the United States, which has a massive trade deficit, and if the currency markets were not rigged, the dollar would be collapsing, the Russian economy has a trade surplus. Therefore, there is no pressure on its currency for economic conditions.” Dr. Roberts goes on to say, “This is not some independent action of market forces. So, it’s either hedge funds, currency speculators like Soros, or it’s an Act of War on behalf of the United States government by the Federal Reserve or the Exchange Stabilization Fund. . . or possibly both hedge funds working with the federal government.”

Manipulating the markets, any market, is supposed to be illegal, but don’t count on the bankers going to jail. Dr. Roberts, who has a PhD in economics, thinks, “The big banks, the big Wall Street money, are essentially agents of the government. This is why they don’t get prosecuted. This is why they can break all kinds of laws, commit felonies and settle with a fine. This is what we’ve been watching in the financial arena. When these financial gangsters are caught, instead of being indicted and put on trial, they pay money.”

How could the Russians retaliate? Dr. Roberts says, “If the Russians wanted to do payback, it’s very easy for them. The next time all of these contracts, paper gold contracts, are dumped on the futures market, the Russians need to go and buy them all up, then demand delivery because there is no gold to deliver. The whole system would collapse. So, the Russians could cause a gold squeeze here anytime they want. . . . They would blow the system wide open because they can’t make delivery.”

On war, Dr. Roberts says recent resolutions passed in Congress certainly point to it. Dr. Roberts explains, “These resolutions demonize Russia and define it as a great threat. They call on Obama to arm the Ukrainians so we can use the Ukrainians to fight Russia. In other words, we are going to fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian. Of course, the Ukraine can’t fight Russia. The whole purpose of this is to have the Russians slap them down, then we can go to the Europeans and say see, see the Russians invaded and look how dangerous they are. You’re next. They will be in Berlin tomorrow. They’ll be in London by the end of the week. Paris will fall, and Rome will burn. We can’t wait to tell the Europeans this because the whole purpose of this is to completely break every kind of relationship, economic, political and cultural, between Russia and Europe. That’s what Washington’s goal is. That’s what it’s all about. This includes attacks on the ruble and sanctions. They are setting up a war that nobody can win, for what reason? For American superiority? You don’t have superiority if the world is awash in radioactive waste and there is nuclear winter. The climate has collapsed. The whole thing is an absurdity.”

On the teetering economy and possible economic collapse, Dr. Roberts says, “We know something serious is wrong. The only provision of Dodd-Frank that has any teeth is the provision that says if the big banks are going to be casinos and gamble on derivatives, they cannot do that in the depository institution where depositors have their accounts. They have to farm it out into subsidiaries. So, if the subsidiaries get into trouble, the subsidiaries have no access to depositors’ money. This is the only real reform part of Dodd-Frank. Citigroup got put into the recent spending bill, the repeal of this, so they can gamble on derivatives, and taxpayers and depositors are on the hook for the losses. Why would you do that unless you had a lot of derivatives trouble. It could easily be the oil derivatives. . . . The banks can gamble all they want and they are covered by the FDIC, which has no money. . . . This gives the banks access to depositors’ money. . . . This is sick, and it shows the United States government is the most corrupt government on earth, far more corrupt than Russia or China.”

Hmmm, that looks like a whole load of copy/paste without any actual argument. One stop short of url-arguments.

bobs ur uncle

Lemming,

well, ya, it is copy and paste.. is it not easy to see from the very first line "Former Assistant Treasury Secretary Dr. Paul Craig Roberts thinks..."

it is relevant to my argument as it backs up the idea that the whole russia/ukraine thing is all orchestrated by the US.

i dont see you posting anything to counter the argument? and the same goes for my previous post - the only responses were to the last statement which were closer to personal attacks than counter arguments to the discussion at hand.

InTheTrees

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

its the US that is the aggressor in urkraine/iraq/syria/Palestine/afganistan and so on and so on..

if the US is so keen on promoting "global democracy" why havnt they put an end to the crap that goes on in nations like n.korea or countries in africa plagued by civil wars that have lasted generations..

So the US is the aggressor all over the place and yet you want them to get involved in N.Korea and/or(?) "countries in africa"?

I thought you didnt want them to get involved in other countries??

bobs ur uncle

InTheTrees wrote: »

So the US is the aggressor all over the place and yet you want them to get involved in N.Korea and/or(?) "countries in africa"?

I thought you didnt want them to get involved in other countries??

my point was that they only intervene in countries that promote their own interests... they only over throw governments that go against their interests and they, so far, have over thrown every government that has attempted to trade oil in any other currency.. what do you think the war in iraq was really about?

bobs ur uncle

InTheTrees wrote: »

So the US is the aggressor all over the place and yet you want them to get involved in N.Korea and/or(?) "countries in africa"?

I thought you didnt want them to get involved in other countries??

i didnt say i want them to. asked why havnt they if they are so keen on promoting democracy all around the world?

my point was that they only intervene in countries that promote their own interests... they only over throw governments that go against their interests and they, so far, have over thrown every government that has attempted to trade oil in any other currency.. what do you think the war in iraq was really about? why have they, after 65 years, only just now started easing off on cuba(one of russias allies) and playing the good with them? do you think they just had a change of heart or do you think they are trying to coerce one of russias allies so as to bring them further away from russia and closer to the US? only now have they had any incentive to ease up on them.

gandalf

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

your joking right?

the average russian person is not the problem. the problem is western media and a complacent/ignorant western populace. its the US that is the aggressor in urkraine/iraq/syria/Palestine/afganistan and so on and so on.. the list is endless.

if the US is so keen on promoting "global democracy" why havnt they put an end to the crap that goes on in nations like n.korea or countries in africa plagued by civil wars that have lasted generations..

pull your head out of the sand and take a look around.

and i love the fact that that line is the only line people pulled me on and not anything else i mentioned.

The problem is a Hitler clone in Russia carrying out the Sudetenland playbook from 75 years ago. If Putin and Russia want to be treated like a normal nation then they should respect their neighbours decisions and borders.

And just because I highlight this issue with regards to Russia does not mean I condone any other countries actions. I just see the biggest danger to peace in Europe at the moment being Russia.

As for pulling out just one line in your cut and paste jobs, to be honest I stopped reading them because they were just waffle. You have already pitched your tent in the Russia good, USA bad camp so there is no point in engaging with you fully. You don't even bother to give credit to the sources of your cut and paste jobs so why should I even bother to take you seriously.

bobs ur uncle

gandalf wrote: »

The problem is a Hitler clone in Russia carrying out the Sudetenland playbook from 75 years ago. If Putin and Russia want to be treated like a normal nation then they should respect their neighbours decisions and borders.

And just because I highlight this issue with regards to Russia does not mean I condone any other countries actions. I just see the biggest danger to peace in Europe at the moment being Russia.

As for pulling out just one line in your cut and paste jobs, to be honest I stopped reading them because they were just waffle. You have already pitched your tent in the Russia good, USA bad camp so there is no point in engaging with you fully. You don't even bother to give credit to the sources of your cut and paste jobs so why should I even bother to take you seriously.

i cant give sources.. this is an old account iv never really used so it wont let me post external links.. even tried the [.] stuff spaces the lot.. wont work.. all you gota do is google the first 4-5 words and it will be top of the list.

can you please give some kind of explanation as to how russia is the problem here and not NATO/US? h res 758.. have you read? its the biggest piece of war mongering legislation to come out of the US in a long time.. some of it is laughable. to think that russia is doing anything else other than retaliating just shows your ignorance of the geopolitical landscape..

do you know anything about russia moving away from the dollar? the russian version of the SWIFT banking system they are building? the currency swap deal with china? BRICS bank? doing deals all over to trade outside the dollar? who has the most to lose from the dollar not being the reserve currency anymore? what ha s happened to literally every other nation that has attempted to move away from trading resources in dollars?

why has america befriended cuba after 65 years? why are they putting sanctions on n.korea(do you honestly think N.Korea has any interest in hacking sony? LOL) why has america signed the "The Ukraine Freedom Support Act of 2014" which lets them provide "lethal aid" (arm them to the teeth) when the country is actually stabilizing? where is the proof that russia has provided weapons/troops to ukraine? why did the US media instantly with in hours start accusing russia of shooting down MH17 flight before any evidence was collected and not provide a single piece of evidence when doing so and still to this day not give any? why did ukraine not hand over radar recordings or air control recordings EVER while russia handed over radar recordings straight away? why was Malaysia not allowed to participate in the international investigation - the owners of the plane? why is ukraine in the investigation when they are a potential suspect in the case? why can any one of the countries veto the release of the findings if they dont like what was found? why is NATO and the US consistently beefing up troop deployment along russian boarders?

why can you not see that the US has a very very long history of destabilizing anti-US governments and going to war with countries who attempt to move away from the dollar? why is this time different simply because its russia?

do you have any idea how good putins approval ratings are? cameron and obama would kill to have approval ratings like putins..

you didnt just pull that line out of my post(which wasnt copy and paste) simply because "the rest is waffle".. you pulled it out and disregarded the rest because you are not educated enough on the subject of geopolitics or history of wars so you would rather disregard a valid argument than realize that you are ignorant to a very important subject that may have global ramifications. instead you make a stupid statement that only serves to prove your lack of understanding of the subject. what god damn difference does it make if the russians "dont have that choice" if they are not the problem.

now this time, instead of posting a one liner that doesnt really mean anything, post a reply with some kind of substance in order to back up your argument that russia is the aggressor instead of just saying things with out giving any explanation. there is plenty of proof that proves the US and NATO are the agressors, but not that its russia.. so please if you are so sure you are right, prove me wrong. you sound like prime time CNN/MSNBC.

gandalf

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

i cant give sources.. this is an old account iv never really used

Why aren't you posting from your normal account?

Morpheus

bobs ur uncle wrote: »

can you please give some kind of explanation as to how russia is the problem here

Ummmm .. maybe Russia f**ked up by breaching the sovereignity of another state through full invasion, annexation and occupation of the Crimean Penninsula and also the supply of personnel and equipment supporting a bunch of terrorists on another countrys sovereign soil?

#JustSaying

gandalf

Morpheus wrote: »

Ummmm .. maybe Russia f**ked up by breaching the sovereignity of another state through full invasion, annexation and occupation of the Crimean Penninsula and also the supply of personnel and equipment supporting a bunch of terrorists on another countrys sovereign soil?

#JustSaying

That just about sums up my position.

Do you condone this action by the Russians "bobs ur uncle"? Do you believe it is right and acceptable behaviour "bobs ur uncle". Try and answer without the "USA bad" line and just deal with Russia's behaviour if possible "bobs ur uncle";)

InTheTrees

Morpheus wrote: »

Ummmm .. maybe Russia f**ked up by breaching the sovereignity of another state through full invasion, annexation and occupation of the Crimean Penninsula and also the supply of personnel and equipment supporting a bunch of terrorists on another countrys sovereign soil?

#JustSaying

Not to mention Russia outright blackmailing its neighbours over their oil supplies.

Russia has been using its oil as a way to bully the rest of Europe for so long there's little sympathy for them now.