Ukraine on the brink of civil war. Mod Warning in OP.

woodrow wyatt

To me it looks increasingly like Nato don’t want a end to this conflict, during the week the americans leak a pentagon report that claims Putin has aspergers and imply he is crazy, then today we have the British Foreign Secretary say Putin is acting like a mid 20th century tyrant.
Does this sound like the correct attitude to make public just before you enter negotiations?
Its like that are trying to goad Putin, thankfully he has not risen to the bait.

Ren2k7

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

To me it looks increasingly like Nato don’t want a end to this conflict,

If NATO didn't want an end to this conflict () then it would have shipped weapons, ammo, equipment and other military gear to the Ukrainians by the ship load. Instead it has sent non military humanitarian aid instead. Not to mention European leaders opposing suggestions by the US administration of sending weapons to the Ukrainian military. These are the actions of an alliance who very much wants an end to the conflict.

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

during the week the americans leak a pentagon report that claims Putin has aspergers and imply he is crazy, then today we have the British Foreign Secretary say Putin is acting like a mid 20th century tyrant.

This is in all likelihood correct. Putin, like all despots, displays all the characteristics of someone who is mentally ill.

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Does this sound like the correct attitude to make public just before you enter negotiations?

Absolutely. Make it clear to everyone you have no respect for your opposition and the only way to gain that respect and trust back is to start pulling back troops in Ukraine.

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Its like that are trying to goad Putin, thankfully he has not risen to the bait.

The only person doing the goading is Putin and his attempts to carve out a new neo-Soviet empire.

woodrow wyatt

The meeting in Moscow between Putin and Merkel and Hollande happened without the presence of aides and officials.
Why did it happen this way?
There has been a lot of secrecy and it looks as if Merkel and Hollande were anxious to stop leaks and to prevent information about the talks from getting out.
The fact that the British are excluded from the talks, the first major negotiation to settle a big crisis in Europe in which Britain is not involved since the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 is telling, it looks like Merkel and Hollande don’t trust Cameron, as he will only tell the USA everything that was said.
It could be France and Germany are going to break from the Nato line on the Ukraine.
Sanctions have failed to work, the Ukrainian economy is disintegrating and their military is being defeated.
The only County to benefit from the continuation of the conflict is the USA, is this the start of a new chapter in EU and Russian relations and a break from the USA leading the way?

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

The meeting in Moscow between Putin and Merkel and Hollande happened without the presence of aides and officials.
Why did it happen this way?
There has been a lot of secrecy and it looks as if Merkel and Hollande were anxious to stop leaks and to prevent information about the talks from getting out.
The fact that the British are excluded from the talks, the first major negotiation to settle a big crisis in Europe in which Britain is not involved since the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 is telling, it looks like Merkel and Hollande don’t trust Cameron, as he will only tell the USA everything that was said.
It could be France and Germany are going to break from the Nato line on the Ukraine.
Sanctions have failed to work, the Ukrainian economy is disintegrating and their military is being defeated.
The only County to benefit from the continuation of the conflict is the USA, is this the start of a new chapter in EU and Russian relations and a break from the USA leading the way?

Your completely incorrect putin invited Hollande and Merkel to russia and didn't invite the UK or the US just to give the impression that the US and Europe are divided on ukraine .
Before the meeting russia announced the rebel forces a were massing to attack two government controlled areas to hype up take my deal or ukraine loses more of its country .
Now if the US and UK had any sense they would start shipping weapons and logistics this week to help defend all government controlled regions

woodrow wyatt

Gatling wrote: »

Your completely incorrect putin invited Hollande and Merkel to russia and didn't invite the UK or the US just to give the impression that the US and Europe are divided on ukraine .

Merkel and Hollande accepted the invite, looks like Europe is divided, they could have said no and stuck to the Nato/US/UK position.

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Merkel and Hollande accepted the invite, looks like Europe is divided, they could have said no and stuck to the Nato/US/UK position.

They could well just be entertaining Putin ,
Knowing very well its a publicity stunt for the russian population

Ren2k7

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

The meeting in Moscow between Putin and Merkel and Hollande happened without the presence of aides and officials.
Why did it happen this way?
There has been a lot of secrecy and it looks as if Merkel and Hollande were anxious to stop leaks and to prevent information about the talks from getting out.
The fact that the British are excluded from the talks, the first major negotiation to settle a big crisis in Europe in which Britain is not involved since the one that ended the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 is telling, it looks like Merkel and Hollande don’t trust Cameron, as he will only tell the USA everything that was said.
It could be France and Germany are going to break from the Nato line on the Ukraine.
Sanctions have failed to work, the Ukrainian economy is disintegrating and their military is being defeated.
The only County to benefit from the continuation of the conflict is the USA, is this the start of a new chapter in EU and Russian relations and a break from the USA leading the way?

No.

conditioned games

A more appropriate title for this thread should be Consequences of USA funded overthrow of democratically elected government in Ukraine

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

A more appropriate title for this thread should be Consequences of USA funded overthrow of democratically elected government in Ukraine

If the thread in inaccurate you could always report the thread and provide Varified proof of what your claiming

woodrow wyatt

Ren2k7 wrote: »

No.

A deep detailed reply, no doubt many academic papers will be written about it.

woodrow wyatt

Cyprus has offered Russia to have air and navy bases on its territory
uk.businessinsider.com/russia-military-agreement-in-cyprus-2015-2?r=US#ixzz3RBcx966y

Looks like the break away from the USA is on

Gatling

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Cyprus has offered Russia to have air and navy bases on its territory
uk.businessinsider.com/russia-military-agreement-in-cyprus-2015-2?r=US#ixzz3RBcx966y

Looks like the break away from the USA is on

Which side turks or Greeks side , along with the British base

Iwasfrozen

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Cyprus has offered Russia to have air and navy bases on its territory
uk.businessinsider.com/russia-military-agreement-in-cyprus-2015-2?r=US#ixzz3RBcx966y

Looks like the break away from the USA is on

Is the British base still open? Yes? Then it's not a break from NATO.

Gatling

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is the British base still open? Yes? Then it's not a break from NATO.

Yeah it's still there will be for the forceeable future the russian naval base will be litteally next door .
Now when you consider that Cyprus is believed to be a major hub for russians money laundering now Greece is also cosying up to russia in an attempt to gain leverage with EU bailout talks .

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

A more appropriate title for this thread should be Consequences of USA funded overthrow of democratically elected government in Ukraine

No it wouldn't. And the democratically elected Rada, implementing the demands of the Ukrainian people formally removed the President after he abandoned his post and fled to Russia, along with billions of dollars in embezzled Ukrainian state funds.

Ren2k7

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

A deep detailed reply, no doubt many academic papers will be written about it.

Well if you're going to post nonsense you're going to get a short reply.

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Cyprus has offered Russia to have air and navy bases on its territory
uk.businessinsider.com/russia-military-agreement-in-cyprus-2015-2?r=US#ixzz3RBcx966y

Looks like the break away from the USA is on

It would only be considered "breaking away from the USA" if Cyprus was with the US and NATO to begin with. Cyprus has ALWAYS been friendly with Russia; many Russian oligarchs had their money in Cypriot banks. Until their savings were wiped out after the Cypriot state went begging to Brussels and Frankfurt for a bailout.

Seriously, what is it about Christian Orthodox states and massive institutional corruption and economic malpractice? Maybe it has something to do with a more than unhealthy relationship with Russia perhaps?

If it is true about a Russian base deal in Cyprus then this will end badly for the Cypriots, as the Ukrainians have found out to their cost.

conditioned games

Ren2k7 wrote: »

No it wouldn't. And the democratically elected Rada, implementing the demands of the Ukrainian people formally removed the President after he abandoned his post and fled to Russia, along with billions of dollars in embezzled Ukrainian state funds.

It was the neo nazi Svoboda party that was financed and supported by the USA government that attacked and overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine after they rejected a EU economic plan requiring harsh austerity and instead went for a 15 billion loan from russia that did not require austerity that has led to the civil war in Ukraine. I suggust you read up on your history before making false and missleading claims.

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

It was the neo nazi Svoboda party that was financed and supported by the USA government that attacked and overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine after they rejected a EU economic plan requiring harsh austerity and instead went for a 15 billion loan from russia that did not require austerity that has led to the civil war in Ukraine. I suggust you read up on your history before making false and missleading claims.

What false and misleading claims. What you have posted above is far more fictional than Ren2k7 posted.

The Democratically elected Rada, implementing the demands of the Ukrainian people formally removed the President after he abandoned his post and fled to Russia, along with billions of dollars in embezzled Ukrainian state funds.= A FACT

Given the Svoboda party makes up a very small number of the Parliament there is no way they could have removed him themselves.

There is absolutely no proof that the Svoboda party is financed by the US at all and none of the apologists have posted any real substantial evidence that they are at all.

I suggest you start backing up your wild assertions here please because at the moment I see only one group of individuals who need to widen their reading material before they "make false and missleading claims".

conditioned games

The elected government wasn't removed peacefully. The armed right wing Svoboda party that was financed by the US government lead a violent coup that overthrew the government in Ukraine. There are pictures and videos online of this illegal overthrow of government that has been kept hidden from the biased pro US, media in the west. Now the USA wants more bloodshed in Ukraine due to their personal gripe with russia.

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

The elected government wasn't removed peacefully. The armed right wing Svoboda party that was financed by the US government lead a violent coup that overthrew the government in Ukraine. There are pictures and videos online of this illegal overthrow of government that has been kept hidden from the biased pro US, media in the west. Now the USA wants more bloodshed in Ukraine due to their personal gripe with russia.

But didn't the berkut special police unit shoot and kill nearly 90 innocent and unarmed protesters in Kiev , then like the cowards they are, fleeing to Crimea where there made a special militia operating under direct control kremlin.

gandalf

conditioned games wrote: »

The elected government wasn't removed peacefully.

The elected Parliament was made up of the same members all the time. The only person who changed was the President, who fled to Russia. He was impeached by that Parliament. Then it became apparent that he had siphoned vast amounts of money off the Ukrainian people.

The armed right wing Svoboda party that was financed by the US government lead a violent coup that overthrew the government in Ukraine.

Can you post proof of this "claim" that this minority party in the Ukrainian Parliament is funded by the US.

Again there was no overthrow of the Government in the Ukraine. A corrupt President was unmasked and he fled to his handlers in Moscow.

There are pictures and videos online of this illegal overthrow of government that has been kept hidden from the biased pro US, media in the west.

You really think that the whole of media outside Russia would suppress this?

Not just US, UK, European but also Middle Eastern, Asian, South American. If real evidence exists it would have been shown and commented on by credible news outlets. The only news outlets who are considering this fantasy as reality are the Russia ones where the majority of outlets are controlled by the Kremlin.

Now the USA wants more bloodshed in Ukraine due to their personal gripe with russia.

I've always believed in the phrase actions speak louder than words. The only nation I see with a bloodlust at the moment is Russia, a minimum of 5000 deaths because of one man's wish to create a Zombie USSR.

gandalf

Just to remind people why this whole thing kicked off here is a selection of pictures of the Mr. Yanukovych's Palace that people over ran after he fled to Russia. Bear in mind the Ukraine is a country that has one of the lowest standards of living in Europe (that was before Russia's proxy and then real army started to tear it apart). This man was siphoning billions from his own people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10656023/In-pictures-Inside-the-palace-Yanukovych-didnt-want-Ukraine-to-see.html?frame=2834874

He was ousted because he declined to sign a deal with the EU after the Kremlin put pressure on him.

Thousands of people have staged fresh protests in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, at President Viktor Yanukovych's refusal to sign an EU association agreement.

Some 10,000 Demonstrators in Independence Square carried Ukrainian and EU flags late on Friday and chanted "Ukraine is Europe".

Mr Yanukovych, who attended an EU summit in Lithuania on Friday cited pressure from Russia for his decision.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

Probably not a clever thing for him to do given the majority of Ukrainians appeared in 2013 to want to join the EU.

http://www.dw.de/ukraine-eu-support-up-again/a-16924061

woodrow wyatt

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It would only be considered "breaking away from the USA" if Cyprus was with the US and NATO to begin with. Cyprus has ALWAYS been friendly with Russia; many Russian oligarchs had their money in Cypriot banks. Until their savings were wiped out after the Cypriot state went begging to Brussels and Frankfurt for a bailout.

Seriously, what is it about Christian Orthodox states and massive institutional corruption and economic malpractice? Maybe it has something to do with a more than unhealthy relationship with Russia perhaps?

If it is true about a Russian base deal in Cyprus then this will end badly for the Cypriots, as the Ukrainians have found out to their cost.

Naive post.
Cyprus is in the Euro, are they going to dump that and go back to their own money?
Christian Orthodox states,replace with catholic and south america and there is no difference.
The 2 British military bases will be greatly diminished in importance if a Russian one is next door. The Russian will be a thorn in their side, the Cyprus government will extract all sorts of sweet deals from Nato.
You should think for yourself and stop reading the NATO press releases.

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

It was the neo nazi Svoboda party that was financed and supported by the USA government that attacked and overthrew the democratically elected government in Ukraine after they rejected a EU economic plan requiring harsh austerity and instead went for a 15 billion loan from russia that did not require austerity that has led to the civil war in Ukraine. I suggust you read up on your history before making false and missleading claims.

And I suggest you take off that tinfoil hat and go back on your medication. Seriously where do you people get this garbage?

Ren2k7

conditioned games wrote: »

The elected government wasn't removed peacefully. The armed right wing Svoboda party that was financed by the US government lead a violent coup that overthrew the government in Ukraine. There are pictures and videos online of this illegal overthrow of government that has been kept hidden from the biased pro US, media in the west. Now the USA wants more bloodshed in Ukraine due to their personal gripe with russia.

Let's clear this up once and for all. He fled the country with billions of dollars in embezzled state funds, right in the middle of the night. The next morning the country awoke to find itself without a president. So Parliament filled the void by appointing an interim President and cabinet until elections took place, which they did after a number of weeks. Yanukovych fled the country on his own accord.

Do you deny these statements of facts? Because if we are led to believe your claims of a "violent coup that overthrew the government" then it's a rather strange "violent coup" given Yanukovych turned up in some exclusive villa in the south of Russia with billions tucked away.

robindch

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Seriously where do you people get this garbage?

That naked line - never presented with a shred of evidence - is straight from the Russian state-controlled media playbook.

Popular uprisings against massively corrupt leaders is something that Putin is trying to avoid at home. For reasons that should be quite obvious.

Ren2k7

woodrow wyatt wrote: »

Naive post.
Cyprus is in the Euro, are they going to dump that and go back to their own money?
Christian Orthodox states,replace with catholic and south america and there is no difference.
The 2 British military bases will be greatly diminished in importance if a Russian one is next door. The Russian will be a thorn in their side, the Cyprus government will extract all sorts of sweet deals from Nato.
You should think for yourself and stop reading the NATO press releases.

1. Cyprus is going to dump the Euro? Why didn't it do so during its own crisis?
2. Orthodox countries tend to have a close relationship, with Russia seeing itself as a "defender" of Orthodoxy and a bulwark against liberal Christianity from the west.
3. Why would the British based "be greatly diminished"? They'd still operate as normal. Unless you're suggesting having a Russian base next door will cause a decline in moral for British personnel? In which case that would be a rather weird thing for you to say.
4. Cyprus isn't a NATO member so how exactly could it "extract all sorts of sweet deals from NATO"?

I don't read NATO press releases. I guess I don't obsess about the military alliance like some people with no lives.

Ozymandius2011

A new poll by Oxford University finds that only around 10% in East and South Ukraine want either independence or to join Russia.

I also want to draw your attention to these ominous remarks by Kremlin Ukraine advisor Sergei Glazyev in 2013, which seem to have come true.

The Guardian wrote:

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

You got that right. He threatened that if Ukraine signed a trade agreement with the EU, Russia would no longer recognise Ukraine as a state and would support what amounts to separatists.

Black Swan

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conditioned games

Gatling wrote: »

But didn't the berkut special police unit shoot and kill nearly 90 innocent and unarmed protesters in Kiev , then like the cowards they are, fleeing to Crimea where there made a special militia operating under direct control kremlin.

Nope, it made no sense for the special police to escalate an already tense situation by killing people at random. From the following pictures the snipers were not in uniform and they had masks on. More likely it was members of the Svoboda party that killed the people which also included 3 dead police men from which the Svoboda party benefited from.

http://www.internationalist.org/ukrainefascistcoup1403.html