Jim Mansfield R.I.P

Guy:Incognito

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

So that was Jims decision, yes? Or did the state choose to lump it onto the taxpayer? Banks borrowed, they lost. The State chose to step in. I'm guessing he himself would have said let the banks go get their own money. You sure the right people are being blamed??

Presumably you'd have been happy enough for the banks to fail if you 20 or 30 grand saved up that you lost, yeah?

Stavros Murphy

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Presumably you'd have been happy enough for the banks to fail if you 20 or 30 grand saved up that you lost, yeah?

That's a whole nother thread right there.

keeponhurling

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

So that was Jims decision, yes? Or did the state choose to lump it onto the taxpayer? Banks borrowed, they lost. The State chose to step in. I'm guessing he himself would have said let the banks go get their own money. You sure the right people are being blamed??

Not saying that at all, or that he did anything wrong.

Just saying that given he knew his debts were passed to the taxpayer,(which you seem to suggest he wouldnt be happy about) , leaving a few quid to the state would have been a nice touch.

Stavros Murphy

keeponhurling wrote: »

Not saying that at all, or that he did anything wrong.

Just saying that given he knew his debts were passed to the taxpayer,(which you seem to suggest he wouldnt be happy about) , leaving a few quid to the state would have been a nice touch.

Maybe dying came as a surprise. It could have been on tomorrows to-do list.

Stavros Murphy

Trigger Happy wrote: »

Who?

Yeah, right.

dreamers75

MadsL wrote: »

You are aware that Mansfield cost the Irish taxpayer €300million, and that as I recall the retrospective planning granted was held to be breach of EU law.

Building without planning permission at the scale Mansfield did is hardly 'natural'.

I am aware he made the taxpayer a lot more than that. Specifically anyone working for him. Chap did more in 20 years in Citywest than the IDA did in 50 in ireland.

He made this country a lot of money. but he made a lot of enemies in higher places.

In retro mode if we paid him 300 million in 1990 and he gauranteed over 3 billion to the Irish economy , would that be ok?

If you ask me we paying the wrong people to bring money to this country then picking certain people to be scapegoats. Mad how those scapegoats are not affiliated to political parties........

If the IDA/Ireland increased the 10 year ESB/TAX rule in 02 we wouldnt be in this situation and we wouldnt be blaming a dead man as the cause. And Mansfield would be a hero........

Guess the media works in painting villians that they chose.

Stavros Murphy

dreamers75 wrote: »

I am aware he made the taxpayer a lot more than that. Specifically anyone working for him. Chap did more in 20 years in Citywest than the IDA did in 50 in ireland.

He made this country a lot of money. but he made a lot of enemies in higher places.

In retro mode if we paid him 300 million in 1990 and he gauranteed over 3 billion to the Irish economy , would that be ok?

If you ask me we paying the wrong people to bring money to this country then picking certain people to be scapegoats. Mad how those scapegoats are not affiliated to political parties........

If the IDA/Ireland increased the 10 year ESB/TAX rule in 02 we wouldnt be in this situation and we wouldnt be blaming a dead man as the cause. And Mansfield would be a hero........

Guess the media works in painting villians that they chose.

I would have said that but lack the words. Between the money he paid workers, the levvies he paid, the tax he paid, the huge economic activity he stimulated in Citywest, I'd reckon he died owing no-one nothing. There's always lesser men sniping at people who tried.

Frankie Lee

He was no Pablo Escobar when it comes to doing social good.

COYW

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

There's always lesser men sniping at people who tried.

Yep, the begrudging Irish love a good old snipe. The people who snipe are the same ones out doing nixers for cash in hand, you'll find.

keeponhurling

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Maybe dying came as a surprise. It could have been on tomorrows to-do list.

A strange point, even some young people have wills.
You honestly don't think a 75 year old wealthy businessman would ever have thought of a will?

Anyways, we both know he was never going to leave anything to the state, despite everything. Which is his right.

Stavros Murphy

keeponhurling wrote: »

A strange point, even some young people have wills.
You honestly don't think a 75 year old wealthy businessman would ever have thought of a will?

Anyways, we both know he was never going to leave anything to the state, despite everything. Which is his right.

Despite what? I worked on his conference center - it would have been world class, and affected no-one, but the state made him rip it all down for some arbritary(you go figure why I say that - if you're in the club, planning is purely optional) crap. How well disposed to the state do you reckon he was? If they'd got the fcuk out of his way, I doubt he would have run into any financial trouble.

Ponzi Bilharzia

He was a bridge-builder. He connected Ireland with the rest of the world, but particularly South America. He was a maverick, bringing energy and manic enthusiasm to this country one white powdery gram at a time. His only regret was his role as dynamic ontropanure left little time to teach his son, Jim Jr., how to read. Tis a shame too he couldn't hook Jim Jr's girlfriend, Katy up with the quality **** that was going through Weston.

Stavros Murphy

Ponzi Bilharzia wrote: »

He was a bridge-builder. He connected Ireland with the rest of the world, but particularly South America. He was a maverick, bringing energy and manic enthusiasm to this country one white powdery gram at a time. His only regret was his role as dynamic ontropanure left little time to teach his son, Jim Jr., how to read. Tis a shame too he couldn't hook Jim Jr's girlfriend, Katy up with the quality **** that was going through Weston.

I'll leave you at it. I've never met a bust coke baron yet, the profits usually preclude that, but whatever. Was J junior there when Katy died? Or was that a solo run?

mathepac

fryup wrote: »

any relation to thelma mansfield?? (ex rte continuity announcer)

Thelma would be about the same age os the late Jim, who was a member of the extended Kildare family that owned the ground rents of Naas and surrounding areas for centuries. His cousin Mick and I rebuilt a Morris Minor engine in the back-yard of a pub back in the mid 70's. I think Thelma married a Mansfield (open to correction), but any of them I know back then were sound out.

porsche959

Usually I abide by the "don't speak ill of the dead" rule but I dont know about this one, there was always been a whiff of sulphur about this guy.

expectationlost

this line they have about upsetting some powerful people who didn't like what he did, little man fighting against the establishment is the same BS we heard how sean fitzpatrick, michael fingleton and sean quinn even bertie ahern, thought of themselves, he became the people he claimed to be up against

genericguy

genericguy wrote: »

Thought the usual AH RIP whores would've been all over this hours ago.

RIP whores?

Slutmonkey57b

dreamers75 wrote: »

I am aware he made the taxpayer a lot more than that. Specifically anyone working for him. Chap did more in 20 years in Citywest than the IDA did in 50 in ireland.

He made this country a lot of money. but he made a lot of enemies in higher places.

Are you smoking something? The IDA brought Dell, Intel, Microsoft, Pfizer, Google and dozens of other enterprises to this country. Mansfield sold scrap metal, ran a tool hire business, then built a lot of dodgy ****box houses, warehouses and warehouses masquerading as hotels with no planning permission and the help of a lot of corrupt politicians, most of which started to fall apart in a few years, or lay empty for ever because they were nothing more than a tax scam in the first place.

His success, like most other "genius" Irish entrepreneurs, is down to cute hoor backhander corruption and being friendly with those in the know. By no stretch of the imagination could one of Bertie's big "whip round" mates be the victim of "enemies" in a position of power.

Teyla Emmagan

He had been sick for a while I believe. I think he had diminished mental capacity towards the end due to whatever the illness was, which is very sad. He seemed to have been a kind and decent man, flagrant disregard for the planning process aside. All the more pity one of his sons appears to be a complete thug.

One of my friends met him a couple of years ago when he was scouting for a film location. Jim asked him where the film was being made. 'Wicklow'. 'Why Wicklow?'. 'Because they have a studio'. 'Give me a month', says Jim, 'And I'll build you a studio'.

Sunnyisland

RIP.

Sunnyisland

“Jim Mansfield was a great, great character,” Noel Smyth, the former solicitor and long- term adviser to the late businessman, recalled yesterday.
The two men first met in the 1970s when Mansfield had a legal dispute about a Dublin nightclub he ran called The Fiesta.
“Jim was impressed that the judge knew my name and we hit it off,” said Smyth. Later their paths would cross again in a spectacular deal which made Mansfield very wealthy.
Businessman Jim Mansfield dies after illness
Mansfield was born on April 9th, 1939. He was brought up by his mother with his two brothers on a farm in Brittas, south Dublin. A strongly-built man, Mansfield had what he described as a “wild youth” but he was also industrious. He had an innate ability to do deals in his head despite leaving school at 14.
His first job was as a truck driver and he settled down somewhat when he married his beloved Anne from Terenure, Dublin 6. Three sons followed – Tony, Jimmy jnr and PJ.
He built up a small haulage business and from fixing his own trucks he developed a love of machinery. He started to trade in used equipment and vehicles and when Ireland entered a recession in the 1980s he snapped up disused building machinery and sold it on abroad.

Falklands war
The British prime minister Margaret Thatcher gave him his big break in 1983 when, after the Falklands war ended abruptly, she put thousands of tonnes worth of plant, equipment and scrap that had been shipped down there unnecessarily up for sale.
Mansfield teamed up with Smyth to buy the lot, backed by a loan from Ansbacher Bank. “We brought it all back to Atlanta and the UK and sold it off around the world,” Smyth recalled.
“We had great fun at that time. The department of defence [in Britain] and lots of other people were annoyed we won the deal! Jim was an entrepreneur who was very anti-establishment and he got a great kick out of it.”
Mansfield in his first interview two decades later said he made IR£100 million from that one deal. He was among the first Irish men to own a private jet as a result.
By 1998, Mansfield owned a 100-bed hotel called Citywest in southwest Dublin. It had a golf course designed by his friend Christy O’Connor Jr, but not much else.
Mansfield asked John Glynn, who ran the Burlington in Dublin, then Ireland’s largest hotel, to help. “Jim spoke like a man in the plant hire business and a four-letter word was not irregular but he was courageous and passionate about that part of Dublin [around Citywest],” Glynn said.Mansfield and Glynn rapidly expanded Citywest to become a 1,400-bed hotel with a huge banqueting and exhibition hall, which was capable of competing globally.
As the business boomed, Mansfield used its cashflow to borrow about €300 million from Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and Irish Nationwide.
He bought tracts of land, Palmerstown House (whose contents turned out to contain a painting by Picasso) and Finnstown Country House in Lucan.
Businessman Jim Mansfield dies after illness
In 2002 he bought Weston Aerodrome for €12.7 million. He hoped to upgrade it and turn it into an executive airport.
When the Ryder Cup came to the K Club in 2006, Citywest hosted a gala dinner, with guests including Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods and Arnold Palmer. Glynn said he did not believe the Ryder Cup would have come to Ireland if a hotel and dining facility the size of Citywest had not been nearby.
“The Special Olympics was the same,” he said.

Pioneer
“Jim was a pioneer in the hotel and conference business,” Smyth said. However he admitted: “Poor old Jim, he thought you could build first and get planning afterwards, which wasn’t such a good thing to do. He was a maverick.”
At his peak Mansfield employed 1,300 people. His friends included Michael Fingleton, the former Irish Nationwide boss, and “Pino” Harris, a truck dealer, and a group of local friends he had known for decades.
In 2006, Mansfield’s son PJ married former Miss Ireland Andrea Roche in a society wedding, but their union ended in 2010.
A low point for Mansfield was when his jet was hired out to a third party who, unknown to the businessman, tried to use it to smuggle €10 million worth of heroin into Ireland in 2006.
In 2007 Mr Mansfield estimated his fortune at €1.7 billion.

Crash
He was ill-prepared for the crash. Glynn had left the business and Citywest began to struggle and dry up as a cash cow. “Jim bought and bought and built and built. He borrowed on the strength on the cash out of Citywest but when that did a U-turn he was over-stretched and ended up in Nama,” Glynn said.
Receivers were installed to Mansfield’s assets and gradually his empire was all sold off. “The hours, the effort, the risk, it was very sad in the end,” Glynn said.
Mansfield died early yesterday morning after a long period of ill-health that, until the end, saw him telling friends he hoped to make a last comeback.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland/maverick-entrepreneur-who-went-from-boom-to-bust-with-celtic-tiger-1.1672743

Some info on the man.

expectationlost

the financial crash just happened to him it wasn't not something he participated in more bs

porsche959

realies wrote: »

Falklands war
The British prime minister Margaret Thatcher gave him his big break in 1983 when, after the Falklands war ended abruptly, she put thousands of tonnes worth of plant, equipment and scrap that had been shipped down there unnecessarily up for sale.
Mansfield teamed up with Smyth to buy the lot, backed by a loan from Ansbacher Bank. “We brought it all back to Atlanta and the UK and sold it off around the world,” Smyth recalled.
“We had great fun at that time. The department of defence [in Britain] and lots of other people were annoyed we won the deal! Jim was an entrepreneur who was very anti-establishment and he got a great kick out of it.”
Mansfield in his first interview two decades later said he made IR£100 million from that one deal. He was among the first Irish men to own a private jet as a result.

Now that is interesting. I knew about the scrap metal deal but had no idea he did the deal in partnership with Smyth, or that Ansbacher financed it. Ties him definitively to the FF/Haughey axis of weasels, er sorry, I meant golden circle.

wicklowstevo

sad when anyone dies but that lad was a gangster and his nephews are still running wild around the counties surrounding dublin.

MadsL

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

There used to be another rule about not speaking ill of the dead either. That was a good and fair rule imo. They get it hard to defend themselves.

You seem to be doing a good job of whitewashing his memory regardless.

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

So that was Jims decision, yes? Or did the state choose to lump it onto the taxpayer? Banks borrowed, they lost. The State chose to step in. I'm guessing he himself would have said let the banks go get their own money. You sure the right people are being blamed??

Give me strength. "Maverick" developers like JM in conjunction with the banks are the reason for the financial mess. JM thought he was above the law, are you defending that?

Mr.Micro

keeponhurling wrote: »

A strange point, even some young people have wills.
You honestly don't think a 75 year old wealthy businessman would ever have thought of a will?

Anyways, we both know he was never going to leave anything to the state, despite everything. Which is his right.

One thing for sure he could not take his money with him.

Stavros Murphy

I mentioned that it was sad he had died. That's about the extent of it, I'm whitewashing no-one.

MadsL

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I mentioned that it was sad he had died. That's about the extent of it, I'm whitewashing no-one.

Errrmmm.....

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Despite what? I worked on his conference center - it would have been world class, and affected no-one, but the state made him rip it all down for some arbritary(you go figure why I say that - if you're in the club, planning is purely optional) crap. How well disposed to the state do you reckon he was? If they'd got the fcuk out of his way, I doubt he would have run into any financial trouble.

Arbitrary crap?

The Planning and Development Act is the law of the land.

You are painting him as some type of victim, JM was anything but a victim, he was the shady me fein side of the Celtic Tiger greedfest. Slapping up a building and then applying for permission when the enforcement notice comes in is a 'fuck you' to honest, lawabiding, hardworking entrepreneurs and the rest of society.

Get off the tiny violin.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I mentioned that it was sad he had died. That's about the extent of it, I'm whitewashing no-one.

Ach, hang on! You've jumped on every post not praising him and countered every comment made with an attempt at canonisation. A bit bizzare actually.

Stavros Murphy

Marvin Kind Shop wrote: »

Ach, hang on! You've jumped on every post not praising him and countered every comment made with an attempt at canonisation. A bit buzzard actually.

I think you're taking it the wrong way there - jumped me hole. If I was any more laid back I'd fall of my chair. I'm not enormously bothered one way or the other, I just thought a bit of balance wouldn't go amiss amid the kicking session. I found him fine. Others didn't. There you go.

MadsL

Personally I think you have gotten the response you set out to get when you started this thread.

JM was no hero, I think that much has been proved.

Stavros Murphy

MadsL wrote: »

Personally I think you have gotten the response you set out to get when you started this thread.

JM was no hero, I think that much has been proved.

Eh? Lost me there. Not that rare an event when it comes to your posts, but go you.

MadsL

I'll spell it out.

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I for one am sorry

Pretty clear tbh.

Stavros Murphy

err, I am sorry he's dead. Are you glad he's dead??

MadsL

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

err, I am sorry he's dead. Are you glad he's dead??

I'm not pushed either way. I only object when people try and paint him as a decent businessman when he was clearly immoral.

Read that in whatever voice you want. :P

Stavros Murphy

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not pushed either way. I only object when people try and paint him as a decent businessman when he was clearly immoral.

Read that in whatever voice you want. :P

Feck off! Ninja edit was because I usually get a laugh out of your posts and didn't want to be rude. Feck off anyway.. :pac:

we built this city

The problem people have with Mr Mansfield is that he done things with his life and those who have bad comments are sad people who could never dream of the adventures he created a working man with a drive.

unkel

we built this citywest wrote:

The problem people have with Mr Mansfield is that he done things with his life and those who have bad comments are sad people who could never dream of the adventures he created a working man with a drive.

Did you change your username?

we built this city

unkel wrote: »

Did you change your username?

No I'm a new user and a current adviser to the Mansfields

MadsL

we built this city wrote: »

The problem people have with Mr Mansfield is that he done things with his life and those who have bad comments are sad people who could never dream of the adventures he created a working man with a drive.

Most of us worked within the confines of the law. Perhaps you are advocating breaking it in order to "do things".

we built this city

MadsL wrote: »

Most of us worked within the confines of the law. Perhaps you are advocating breaking it in order to "do things".

If your talking about planning issues and structures being built before planning all developments that's where constructed are granted permission by way of retention and contributions have being paid to local authorities so as it stands substantial payments where made people put in jobs and a hole village built. If you look back at the mistakes the government have maded they cause more mistakes in the construction industry that have cost families their home so don't blame the person blame the system that the government created

MadsL

we built this city wrote: »

If your talking about planning issues and structures being built before planning all developments that's where constructed are granted permission by way of retention

The law states that you must apply for planning permission before construction.

Retrospective planning permissions being granted were found to be in breach of EU Law and Ireland was sanctioned in this regards. The Mansfield operation knew well they were to apply for planning before construction commenced but were basically pulling strokes and pressuring the council into granting retrospective planning permission.

Is it any wonder the country is in a mess with developers willing to flout the law on the scale JM's "empire" did?

and contributions have being paid to local authorities so as it stands substantial payments where made

Everyone pays development contributions, it is not an excuse to ignore planning law.

people put in jobs

So what? Not very sustainable jobs as it turned out.

and a hole village built.

Village? I think you got it right when you described it as a hole.

If you look back at the mistakes the government have maded they cause more mistakes in the construction industry that have cost families their home so don't blame the person blame the system that the government created

What BS, whatever mistakes the Govt made, there were stil planning laws. You just want to cast the blame elsewhere.

ScouseMouse

You should not be talking about a dead man like that. He created employment and got things done. In his final years he got very ill and ultimately it killed him. Some people were mentioning how convenient it was that "he was sick" now the pressure was on.

The guy worked hard. OK, he was unconventioanal, but he got things done. A few more like him would help build the country back up.

I never met the man, but family are kinda connected to him.

we built this city

MadsL wrote: »

The law states that you must apply for planning permission before construction.

Retrospective planning permissions being granted were found to be in breach of EU Law and Ireland was sanctioned in this regards. The Mansfield operation knew well they were to apply for planning before construction commenced but were basically pulling strokes and pressuring the council into granting retrospective planning permission.

Is it any wonder the country is in a mess with developers willing to flout the law on the scale JM's "empire" did?


Everyone pays development contributions, it is not an excuse to ignore planning law.


So what? Not very sustainable jobs as it turned out.



Village? I think you got it right when you described it as a hole.



What BS, whatever mistakes the Govt made, there were stil planning laws. You just want to cast the blame elsewhere.

I think people are making comments on things they read In the paper and if you are worried about someone who have done something to better themselfs in life than why don't they get of there holes and try do the things he has done and see how they get on and what why they go about it

And regards planning laws and building regulations And how developments work go to college and study to get qualified to comment on the system don't read an article and think you know how they work

we built this city

superscouse wrote: »

You should not be talking about a dead man like that. He created employment and got things done. In his final years he got very ill and ultimately it killed him. Some people were mentioning how convenient it was that "he was sick" now the pressure was on.

The guy worked hard. OK, he was unconventioanal, but he got things done. A few more like him would help build the country back up.

I never met the man, but family are kinda connected to him.

All this is are people being jealous minded because they can or don't have a brain to do anything in there life.

MadsL

we built this city wrote: »

I think people are making comments on things they read In the paper and if you are worried about someone who have done something to better themselfs in life than why don't they get of there holes and try do the things he has done and see how they get on and what why they go about it

And regards planning laws and building regulations And how developments work go to college and study to get qualified to comment on the system don't read an article and think you know how they work

I have been involved in planning law and environmental law for many years, what I know does not come from a newspaper.

we built this city

MadsL wrote: »

I have been involved in planning law and environmental law for many years, what I know does not come from a newspaper.

So if you involved you'd know that this happens in construction so don't pass judgement on someone you don't know or blame someone for the way a system is written and allow someone to work within



MOD: User banned for trolling

Stavros Murphy

Upwards of half the buildings I work on were originally built without planning but got it through retention. There's thousands employed within them, me included. If everyone waited for the councils to get off their hands, feck all would get done.

Slutmonkey57b

Someone describing themselves as an "advisor to the Mansfields" appears to be unable to read or write. Perhaps that's why they ended up ignoring the law? Their advisor couldn't read it?

Alternatively, maybe you're just one of the local boyos from the Rathcoole pub who loved Big Jim for all the cosy little numbers he handed around, and have jumped on here to defend him? Small village me fein backhander Irish life at its best. "Ah sure I made a few quid so he must be all right".

Mansfield wasn't "allowed" to do anything.


He used bribery and political pressure to flout the law and avoid prosecution, just like hundreds of other developers we are supposedly jealous of. Citing the defense "it was the government" when the government were openly in the pockets of rich men like Mansfield is nonsense. These corrupt people created the system according to the rules they wanted, profited beyond anyone's wildest dreams, then used the same bribary and corruption in political circles to force the final bill onto the taxpayer.

Mansfield was probably very nice; to the people he chose to be.

To everyone else he's just another corrupt theif who screwed the country into the wall for his own gain. As to "losing it all" I don't think his kids are going to be in the dole office any time soon...

Slutmonkey57b

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

Upwards of half the buildings I work on were originally built without planning but got it through retention. There's thousands employed within them, me included. If everyone waited for the councils to get off their hands, feck all would get done.

Were the things that "Got done" good things?

All those empty ghost estate tax havens?

The huge rise in prices?

The collapse and recession?

"Getting things done" is only admirable if the things that "get done" are things which benefit society, not if they are things that serve no purpose other than to line the pockets of plutocrats and theiving politicians.