Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

eire4

Tox56 wrote: »

Irish strength in depth is starting to get serious. Players who haven't played in this tournament so far (soon to be IQs included)

Zebo, Payne
Bowe, Gilroy
Cave, Henshaw
Olding
Fitzgerald, Earls
Madigan, Keatley, Hanrahan
Reddan, Marmion
Kilcoyne, Cronin, Court
Strauss, Sherry, Herring
Fitzpatrick, Archer, White
Ryan
McCarthy
Ferris, Ruddock, McLaughlin, Diack
O'Brien
Copeland, Coughlan, Murphy


And we haven't exactly collapsed into the utter shambles we have been in recent seasons

Good point there about our growing strength in depth. I really feel we could be looking at a very exciting few years ahead for Ireland.

Ernest Oreo

Maybe like Shamrock Rovers we should apply to enter two teams in the championship next year?
The Seven Nations #7N

Synode

Cronin got on the pitch against Wales at the weekend

danthefan

Synode wrote: »

Cronin got on the pitch against Wales at the weekend

I assume it was reference to James Cronin, Munster prop.

Ernest Oreo

danthefan wrote: »

I assume it was reference to James Cronin, Munster prop.

bit of a stretch if thats the reference, tbh..

danthefan

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

bit of a stretch if thats the reference, tbh..

Yeah he's not threatening the first team yet but he's developed hugely this season and it's not a stretch to think he'll be an option next season maybe, imo.

Ernest Oreo

two seasons away at best, imo

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah he's not threatening the first team yet but he's developed hugely this season and it's not a stretch to think he'll be an option next season maybe, imo.

Not at all, he's a fantastic prospect and an injury to Healy or McGrath could easily see him in green. Or Kilcoyne for that matter

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

two seasons away at best, imo

based on what exactly?

Tox56

Used to think it was fanciful that Cronin would be involved but he's seriously impressed me recently

Tox56

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

two seasons away at best, imo

Bet a lot of people (prob myself included) would have said the same about Moore at the start of this season. He went from never starting a senior game before this season to playing in the 6 Nations, if you're good enough you won't be far off under Schmidt

Mahatma Geansai

The difference between McGrath/Kilcoyne/Cronin is very close at present. McGrath is currently the man in possession due to being involved during the Autumn, but the pecking order could change at any time.

Oregano_State

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

I think different teams are at different stages.Wales have the most settled side with a way of playing that suits those players but question marks are emerging-they arent just losing to the SH teams now.England are in development-slowly getting better and harder to beat but still short in a few areas of their game.England do though have a core of youngsters-they may not be world XV players now-but in 2-3 years we may be saying that-Corbisiero,Lawes,Launchbury,Vunipola,Yarde,Tuilagi,Watson etc.None of their current team,even squad are in line to retire post 2015 so Englands future looks good.Scotland dont look great-their senior teams arent good,nor is their u20,u18 teams-there just isnt the players coming through anymore.
As for ireland-however good a coach schmidt may or may not be-I struggle to see a side full of world class talents capable of being in the worlds top 3,regularly beating Nz ,aus and Saf and challenging for a world cup-but it is a side capable of winning six nations and causing the odd upset v the big 3.The 2 talismans-o connell and o driscoll are nearing the end and likes of Ross,D'arcy,rory best too. so change is ahead and schmidt will have a chance to develop his own side with 2019 a more realistic target.there are plenty of good irish young players around but im not sure they any better than their welsh/english counterparts at this stage. who is going to fill the shoes of POC and BOD in terms of leadership-they have both played huge roles in irish rugby past 10 years.

From what I've seen so far of the young Irish players, I think that they are at least equal to their English counterparts; the difference is that all the English youngsters are getting test experience right now. True, we are far away from a side that can beat SA and NZ on a consistent basis, but I think Schmidt (along with an emerging pool of players) has us heading in the right direction.
BOD and POC will be a huge loss, but I think POM has put a huge hand up for filling POC's boots at least.

The image of him winning the defensive turnover near our line, standing up and roaring with ball over his head, as he was slapped on the head by the rest of the forwards in praise has been burned happily into my memory for a long time to come.

WorldRugby99

Oregano_State wrote: »

From what I've seen so far of the young Irish players, I think that they are at least equal to their English counterparts; the difference is that all the English youngsters are getting test experience right now. True, we are far away from a side that can beat SA and NZ on a consistent basis, but I think Schmidt (along with an emerging pool of players) has us heading in the right direction.
BOD and POC will be a huge loss, but I think POM has put a huge hand up for filling POC's boots at least.

The image of him winning the defensive turnover near our line, standing up and roaring with ball over his head, as he was slapped on the head by the rest of the forwards in praise has been burned happily into my memory for a long time to come.

I think as fans and followers of rugby,its easy to debate and give predictions and convince yourselves how rosy things are and will be but at the end of the day-we just dont know what will happen! You can only base things on actual results that have happened.The first stage is to get a team winning 6n titles and grandslams,the next is to go beyond and challenge the SH teams and we have seen what a stuggle wales have had trying to go from one to the other despite all the hype and praise. ireland lost their big autumn games,so really the wales win is the first 'big' win under schmidt ,but lets not forget wales are now ranked 7th and it was at home,so bigger tests to come!

Fireball07

As well as we've played in the first two games, I think we'll see a couple of changes for England. I really do think that one or two of Luke Fitz/Zebo/Bowe will make the 23 at the very least. Depending on fitness obviously, but I will be surprised if at least one of them doesn't make it... I just think it's the kind of thing Schmidt will do.

I don't think there'll be changes in the front 5, Henderson will come onto the bench, I don't think Moore will start. I could see TOD starting at 7, but I think Henry will get the nod.


I think Reddan will come in at 9 tbh... wouldn't be surprised at all if Marshall came in for D'Arcy. D'Arcy played really well but Marshall is probably the better attacking player, and I could definitely see us trying to run the ball a bit more. I don't think we'll beat them up up front.

And in the back 3, it would be really harsh to drop Trimble, and Dave Kearney did well to, but I could see one of the 3 I mentioned earlier or McFadden starting. It's just a hunch really. Would be harsh... and I know people say that if it's not broken, don't fix it... but the best coaches are those that tweak things and improve things before it becomes "broke".

Kayless

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

I think as fans and followers of rugby,its easy to debate and give predictions and convince yourselves how rosy things are and will be but at the end of the day-we just dont know what will happen! You can only base things on actual results that have happened.The first stage is to get a team winning 6n titles and grandslams,the next is to go beyond and challenge the SH teams and we have seen what a stuggle wales have had trying to go from one to the other despite all the hype and praise. ireland lost their big autumn games,so really the wales win is the first 'big' win under schmidt ,but lets not forget wales are now ranked 7th and it was at home,so bigger tests to come!

Ah the difference being it took NZ over 80 minutes to beat Ireland can England or Wales say that? And lets remember it was only Schmidts 3rd game in charge!

Not to get ahead of ourselves but I do think we will take a least one big scalp this November and win at least 1 championship between now (this year's 6 Nations) and the RWC.

.ak

Fireball07 wrote: »

As well as we've played in the first two games, I think we'll see a couple of changes for England. I really do think that one or two of Luke Fitz/Zebo/Bowe will make the 23 at the very least. Depending on fitness obviously, but I will be surprised if at least one of them doesn't make it... I just think it's the kind of thing Schmidt will do.

I don't think there'll be changes in the front 5, Henderson will come onto the bench, I don't think Moore will start. I could see TOD starting at 7, but I think Henry will get the nod.


I think Reddan will come in at 9 tbh... wouldn't be surprised at all if Marshall came in for D'Arcy. D'Arcy played really well but Marshall is probably the better attacking player, and I could definitely see us trying to run the ball a bit more. I don't think we'll beat them up up front.

And in the back 3, it would be really harsh to drop Trimble, and Dave Kearney did well to, but I could see one of the 3 I mentioned earlier or McFadden starting. It's just a hunch really. Would be harsh... and I know people say that if it's not broken, don't fix it... but the best coaches are those that tweak things and improve things before it becomes "broke".

I'm with you there. Joe has some massive calls to make. It's really hard to justify dropping any of the current back three, and McFadden has looked quite good in his cameos. However, I think his big call will be making a few changes to keep the team and England on their feet. We'll see how fitzy, Zebo and bowe get in this weekend, out of the three I'd rather fitz there but that's just because he's been on such good form. Hopefully this strained hip flexor hasn't set him back.

cityman 18

The times are reporting that Tommy Bowe will miss Ulsters game this weekend, the injury is taking longer to heal than anticipated. That's one less option for Twickers.

ScissorPaperRock

Article in the independent today where Penney seems tho throw a bit more weight behind the theory that Zebo's celebrations might by hindering his chances of selections.

Apparently it's called Tall Poppy Syndrome in NZ, where if you stick your head up you risk getting it chopped off.

It's a conundrum for me really. It would be a shame to see his personality constrained, but you can't build ruthless, clinical discipline in a team and have one player not go along with.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/munster-rugby/zebo-must-fight-hard-for-ireland-recall-penney-30000909.html

Swiwi.

.ak wrote: »

I'm with you there. Joe has some massive calls to make. It's really hard to justify dropping any of the current back three, and McFadden has looked quite good in his cameos. However, I think his big call will be making a few changes to keep the team and England on their feet. We'll see how fitzy, Zebo and bowe get in this weekend, out of the three I'd rather fitz there but that's just because he's been on such good form. Hopefully this strained hip flexor hasn't set him back.

Do you not think now, though, that Fitz would be too risky a call? Last thing you need is a player going off injured after 10 minutes.

rrpc

Swiwi. wrote: »

Do you not think now, though, that Fitz would be too risky a call? Last thing you need is a player going off injured after 10 minutes.

I don't think any new players will start unless they've already come on off the bench. That's normally the progression that Joe uses with players coming in for the first time or returning after injury. The best Fitz could hope for is a bench slot in the next game. Interesting that Zebo started at FB for Munster, one wonders is he getting some positional changes to improve his bench options.

Buer

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Article in the independent today where Penney seems tho throw a bit more weight behind the theory that Zebo's celebrations might by hindering his chances of selections.

Whatever about the celebrations (which is the oddest thing to hold against someone as long as he's not doing it before dotting down), his comments regarding Zebo needing to overcome "some challenges" and that "he's just got to be consistent on and off the field to prove to other people that he's ready to be an international footballer" suggest to me that Penney knows something we don't in terms of Zebo's place in the pecking order currently with Schmidt.

Buer

It will be very interesting to see how things go this weekend. I would think that we'll see McFadden and Fitz start on the wings for Leinster and Zebo start for Munster. They're all facing weak opposition and, in Zebre, there's a real opportunity for Zebo to put down a marker and force Schmidt's hand before the end of the 6N.

Come Sunday, Schmidt might have an additional headaches. I think McFadden will be the one to drop out of the 23 if Fitz or Zebo force their way in but I can see him putting in a big performance on Friday night.

ScissorPaperRock

Buer wrote: »

Whatever about the celebrations (which is the oddest thing to hold against someone as long as he's not doing it before dotting down), his comments regarding Zebo needing to overcome "some challenges" and that "he's just got to be consistent on and off the field to prove to other people that he's ready to be an international footballer" suggest to me that Penney knows something we don't in terms of Zebo's place in the pecking order currently with Schmidt.

Yeah, maybe it's not precisely specific to the celebrations, but it does sound like some people believe there may be personality/discipline-related issues

"If he's getting advice that he should restrict that and it would enhance his international selection then he should heed that advice, but that's up to him and the person who's giving him that advice."

It's a bit odd alright.

former legend

Buer wrote: »

Whatever about the celebrations (which is the oddest thing to hold against someone as long as he's not doing it before dotting down), his comments regarding Zebo needing to overcome "some challenges" and that "he's just got to be consistent on and off the field to prove to other people that he's ready to be an international footballer" suggest to me that Penney knows something we don't in terms of Zebo's place in the pecking order currently with Schmidt.

I think the pecking order is pretty clear tbh. If anyone is going to be parachuted in on the back of limited game time it would be Bowe. McFadden and Luke have more game time this season, have been playing well and have been involved in the squad. And Joe is unlikely to discard both Trimble and Dave K so I think there is only one spot open for the England game at most.

Edit: And whatever "advice" Zebo is getting to tone down his celebrations etc, I can't believe that it is coming from within the Ireland coaching set-up.

Mahatma Geansai

Fit and in form, Zebo is a better player than Kearney/Trimble/McFadden and would have excelled at the kicking/fielding against Wales. Those comments from Penney appear to disregard the opinion that he has missed out due to fitness in favour of hinting that it is non-rugby reasons which has seen him dropped from the squad.

.ak

Swiwi. wrote: »

Do you not think now, though, that Fitz would be too risky a call? Last thing you need is a player going off injured after 10 minutes.

In that case you'd never start him, ever. It's a hip flexor strain, nothing major. We played him at Leinster through the HEC and we never had any issues with him. If he goes well on Friday I think he should start imo.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Fit and in form, Zebo is a better player than Kearney/Trimble/McFadden and would have excelled at the kicking/fielding against Wales. Those comments from Penney appear to disregard the opinion that he has missed out due to fitness in favour of hinting that it is non-rugby reasons which has seen him dropped from the squad.

Maybe the 'off field' comments means his commitment to conditioning, rehab etc.

schmanga

.ak wrote: »

Maybe the 'off field' comments means his commitment to conditioning, rehab etc.

could be anything. could be something tricky like his attitude. after a bumpy patch lancaster has successfully found replacements for ashton. some players don't fit he mould and they have to change or be left out in the cold. the coach has a vision and a plan and everybody has to buy into it for even a chance of it to be successful. my guess is zebo has already done something against the grain and has been told to buck up or face a long time in the wilderness. no doubt he's a talented player from what we've seen of him he's got serious skills and i for one would like to see him play for ireland more.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I don't see the connection between Penney's comments and his omission from the Irish squad, unless Penney was calling Schmidt a "sad person"

It was aimed at the type of people who use the bit of personality Zebo has as something to put him down

bozzo

schmanga wrote: »

could be anything. could be something tricky like his attitude. after a bumpy patch lancaster has successfully found replacements for ashton. some players don't fit he mould and they have to change or be left out in the cold. the coach has a vision and a plan and everybody has to buy into it for even a chance of it to be successful. my guess is zebo has already done something against the grain and has been told to buck up or face a long time in the wilderness. no doubt he's a talented player from what we've seen of him he's got serious skills and i for one would like to see him play for ireland more.

I agree, I think something happened behind the scenes which didn't please management, the fact he didn't start for the Wolfhounds & Pennys' comments support this. The fitness line made logically sense until not playing Zebo in the Wolfhounds game which then contradicted that reason to a degree.

ScissorPaperRock

Well one thing that sticks out for me in Zebo's international career was his prank on Conor Murray during the Lions tour where he told him the clock was up so he'd kick the ball out (while it wasn't).

Now this has likely nothing to do with that incident, but if that incident is reflective of his personality overall, even just in training, then I could see how discipline could be something he'd be asked to focus on.

This is pure speculation, obviously. I like Zebo as a player, and I like his happy, expressive approach to the game, but I'm just trying to make sense of some of the comments that are making the rounds.

bozzo

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

I don't see the connection between Penney's comments and his omission from the Irish squad, unless Penney was calling Schmidt a "sad person"

It was aimed at the type of people who use the bit of personality Zebo has as something to put him down

I also think it was also at ppl who try to put Zebo down cos of his exhuberance, but the line
''If he's getting advice that he should restrict that and it would enhance his international selection then he should heed that advice, but that's up to him and the person who's giving him that advice." certainly suggests there is some point of contention between Irish management & Zebo, which imo has been kept in house(as it should be really).

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

hmm It's hard to know really. TBH, if something that trivial (imo) is keeping such a talented exciting player out of the Irish squad I'll be very disappointed

I'd be more inclined to believe Schmidt when he said it was due to gametime

Brewster

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

hmm It's hard to know really. TBH, if something that trivial (imo) is keeping such a talented exciting player out of the Irish squad I'll be very disappointed

I'd be more inclined to believe Schmidt when he said it was due to gametime

I agree, Zebo needs to buckle down and put in some hard shifts. Personally I think the early success went to his head. I don't think there is any chance he can play at Twickenham myself, I think he will struggle to make an appearance in tournament. It looks like Bowe won't make Twickenham either so Trimble starts at 14 for me.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Brewster wrote: »

I agree, Zebo needs to buckle down and put in some hard shifts. Personally I think the early success went to his head. It d

Think you misread my post. I think if he's being kept out of an Irish squad for being a bit flashy that it's a shame

Brewster

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Think you misread my post. I think if he's being kept out of an Irish squad for being a bit flashy that it's a shame

I'm old school, so I am not a fan of flashy stuff to be honest...

bozzo

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Well one thing that sticks out for me in Zebo's international career was his prank on Conor Murray during the Lions tour where he told him the clock was up so he'd kick the ball out (while it wasn't).

Now this has likely nothing to do with that incident, but if that incident is reflective of his personality overall, even just in training, then I could see how discipline could be something he'd be asked to focus on.

This is pure speculation, obviously. I like Zebo as a player, and I like his happy, expressive approach to the game, but I'm just trying to make sense of some of the comments that are making the rounds.

From listening to a number of Irish players mention the intensity of Schmidts' training sessions I reckon Zebo probably took training too lightly for managements liking & thus paid the price with non-selection. obv. thats pure speculation but if it is the case i'd have to agree with Schmidt(even tho Zebo is my 2nd fav player), setting the standards & reprimanding players if they fall below these standards is crucial(to use ROG's word ). Zebo won't be long changing his tune & rightly so.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Brewster wrote: »

I'm old school, so I am not a fan of flashy stuff to be honest...

In my opinion it doesn't impact on his game at all. And I'd rather a winger who was cocky than one like Liam Williams

molloyjh

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Think you misread my post. I think if he's being kept out of an Irish squad for being a bit flashy that it's a shame

I seriously doubt it's because he's flashy, but Joe obviously has a specific environment that he wants in his camps. We got that from the About Schmidt thread quite clearly. It's one that seems to work very, very well. If you think about the detail and the discipline he demands then players obviously need to be incredibly focused, both in training and on match day. There is absolutely no harm in that, and in fact I reckon it should be greatly encouraged.

If any player, regardless of how talented they are, cannot or will not fit into that environment then they are damaging to it. Their presence undermines it. Think of it in terms of an office environment. If everyone has bought into a particular way of doing things except 1 person, it doesn't really matter how smart that 1 person is they are still causing a problem and creating conflict.

Now obviously we don't know whether Zebo is or isn't doing anything other than buying into the Irish set-up. And I wouldn't expect Joe to announce it if he was. But if he is then he needs to sort that out. The training park and the games themselves are no place for farting about and having a laugh. You can do that when you're off the pitch. When you're on it you have a job to do, regardless of whether it's "just" training or a match scenario.

rrpc

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

In my opinion it doesn't impact on his game at all. And I'd rather a winger who was cocky than one like Liam Williams

I wouldn't think that's the issue either. After all, it was (according to your post) only in training games that Schmidt introduced the forfeit system for try celebrations and the players carried it through to matches. So from a management point of view, attitude at training is an important part of the system.

It's only stuff that Penney is saying that's bringing this to the fore. There's been absolutely nothing from the Irish camp, so Penney shouldn't really be bringing it up either. It's personal to Zebo and something he's dealing with and shouldn't be hauled out into the public domain (if true of course).

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

molloyjh wrote: »

I seriously doubt it's because he's flashy, but Joe obviously has a specific environment that he wants in his camps. We got that from the About Schmidt thread quite clearly. It's one that seems to work very, very well. If you think about the detail and the discipline he demands then players obviously need to be incredibly focused, both in training and on match day. There is absolutely no harm in that, and in fact I reckon it should be greatly encouraged.

If any player, regardless of how talented they are, cannot or will not fit into that environment then they are damaging to it. Their presence undermines it. Think of it in terms of an office environment. If everyone has bought into a particular way of doing things except 1 person, it doesn't really matter how smart that 1 person is they are still causing a problem and creating conflict.

Now obviously we don't know whether Zebo is or isn't doing anything other than buying into the Irish set-up. And I wouldn't expect Joe to announce it if he was. But if he is then he needs to sort that out. The training park and the games themselves are no place for farting about and having a laugh. You can do that when you're off the pitch. When you're on it you have a job to do, regardless of whether it's "just" training or a match scenario.

This is the crux of it for me. We don't know at all, there's a massive amount of putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5

molloyjh

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

This is the crux of it for me. We don't know at all, there's a massive amount of putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5

Absolutely. Hopefully that is all it is too because I much prefer the thought of Zebo playing than not.

former legend

Question; has Zebo actually been properly involved in an Ireland camp under Schmidt?

Like, if people are somehow coming to the conclusion that he doesn't fit in with Joe's work ethics etc, what are they basing this on?

He missed the autumn series through injury. He wasn't in the 44-man squad for the 6N, he was brought in for the Wolfhounds and then cut again.

So how much exposure has Joe* actually had to Zebo?

Maybe Zebo managed to do something fantastically stupid in the two days he was around Schmidt, but is it not infinitely more likely that the other 5 or 6 wingers are ahead of him on merit, on the basis of gametime and on the basis of the quality of their performances this season?

*(Obviously Kiss would have more experience of him)

former legend

And Penney is not afraid to talk sh*te if it suits his purpose.

rrpc

molloyjh wrote: »

Absolutely. Hopefully that is all it is too because I much prefer the thought of Zebo playing than not.

Yep, much better to leave him sort whatever he needs to sort out in his own time and space. I think he's very likely to feature for Ireland in some way before the end of the tournament.

molloyjh

former legend wrote: »

Maybe Zebo managed to do something fantastically stupid in the two days he was around Schmidt, but is it not infinitely more likely that the other 5 or 6 wingers are ahead of him on merit, on the basis of gametime and on the basis of the quality of their performances this season?

Yes it is.

bozzo

rrpc wrote: »

Yep, much better to leave him sort whatever he needs to sort out in his own time and space. I think he's very likely to feature for Ireland in some way before the end of the tournament.

You'd think for the Italy game anyways, given the likelihood of the championship coming down to points difference

rrpc

former legend wrote: »

Question; has Zebo actually been properly involved in an Ireland camp under Schmidt?

He joined up with the squad on 20th January and then wasn't named in the 34 man squad on the 27th. So he had at least a week in the camp.

former legend

rrpc wrote: »

He joined up with the squad on 20th January and then wasn't named in the 34 man squad on the 27th. So he had at least a week in the camp.

But that's my point; could he possibly have screwed up that badly in such a short space of time that Joe would just throw him on the scrap-heap?

Seems far-fetched to me.