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Can developers do this?!!

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135

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    #62
    shelle8726
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭shelle8726


    davo10 wrote: »
    There isn't a verbal contract, there was a verbal agreement subject to contract.

    I understand what you are saying, but also I understand that others may have signed contracts and gotten houses at original price. Have you been prevented from buying the house at the higher price or have they all been sold already?
    I asked developer can I buy the house at a higher price and was told no the house was not for sale anymore.


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    #63
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    shelle8726 wrote: »
    I asked developer can I buy the house at a higher price and was told no the house was not for sale anymore.

    That is strange, are they sold out at the higher price?


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    #64
    Johnnyhpipe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Johnnyhpipe


    shelle8726 wrote: »
    Davo 10 Yes I know they CAN do this, the same way I could have walked away however I wanted to buy the house I was sticking to my end of the original verbal contract that was made in June, yes nearly 8 months ago but I chased these for my contracts fo nearly 6 months I eventually received them end Nov & naturally my solr raised some general queries & might I ad the very next day, so I would say no we didnt cause the delay. Its alot of money to be handing over & a pretty serious contract to be getting into without being clear & understanding what the terms & conditions were!
    Another thing, you say im one of a group of buyers of which others are willing to pay more, why then was I never given the option to pay more? I was never offered the house at another price.

    Shelle, Identical to my situation with this same developer. Also heard from one other guy on here who would have been on our road too and is now in the same boat as us for the exact same reason.


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    #65
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,128 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Why would we have learned anything? The government while rushing to gouge low and middle income tax payers has singularly failed to tackle any of the legislative and regulatory gaps which allow this kind of inequity to occur, i.e. property law and regulation of the legal sector. The troika have continually criticised the failure to tighten the reins on professional fees and standards and yet all the effort has been to introduce water charges, something the troika really werent all that exercised about.

    There is nothing to stop the solicitors of developers and sellers sitting on contracts to delay sales and gazzump buyers, they simply have no protection. I know nothing about the OPs case so cannot say if this it what happened, but we all know situations where it did happen in the boom. Forget developers, it was the legal sector that caused the boom and bust, and will do so again.

    If I was the OP and I had a healthy wedge from his returned deposit I would consider it a bullet dodged and invest in obtaining a visa to Canada.


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    #66
    ESP2901
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭ESP2901


    Hi guys, we are in the same boat... Deposit was returned in the post last Wednesday with no warning. Loan was in place, contracts being drawn up and we were getting ready to sign. We put our deposit down in December for a house which was due to be ready Spring 2014. Absolutely gutted that this has happened and from what I`ve read there`s not much we can do about it. Its a disgrace what this developer is getting away with.
    :mad::mad::mad:


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    #67
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    ESP2901 wrote: »
    Hi guys, we are in the same boat... Deposit was returned in the post last Wednesday with no warning. Loan was in place, contracts being drawn up and we were getting ready to sign. We put our deposit down in December for a house which was due to be ready Spring 2014. Absolutely gutted that this has happened and from what I`ve read there`s not much we can do about it. Its a disgrace what this developer is getting away with.
    :mad::mad::mad:

    Out of curiosity would you have still paid the asking price if house prices had dropped instead? Say the houses were selling €50k less would you have asked to pay less?

    If you did ask for less would you expect to be sued or fined for it?

    It seems to me you had the same protection as the developer just he lucked out on this occasion. The only difference is you will do a lot less of these transaction so have less liability and risk on this.


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    #68
    ESP2901
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭ESP2901


    Yeah he lucked out all right.


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    #69
    GavMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭GavMan


    Nothing really to add except to commiserate with buyers here.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder did the developer earn any interest on these deposits? Which makes me wonder what about the earning potential of those buyers deposits they potentially missed out on.

    Take the poster who pony'd up in December. Could have invested that money in the twitter IPO and made a tidy sum. Gone from $26 to $65. thats over $7000 ROI....

    While it might be legal, it's clearly immoral and should be looked into.


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    #70
    Sand Wedge
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Sand Wedge


    Johnnyhpipe wrote: »
    Won't name any names yet, but a thread was deleted last week here because the person named the developer and the development..... And I've already heard from another guy on here who has been burned by the same developer on this particular site the same time as me. So that's 3 of us in this situation already, and no doubt there are others.

    I'm meeting my solicitor on Wednesday and will be naming/shaming/taking this further thereafter.


    You really should be putting some blame on your own solicitor. If you have paid a booking deposit since last June/July and had not gotten contracts until 4 or 5 months later, then what was your solicitor at? You pay your solicitor good fees and he should having been pushing the purchase through on your behalf. If he had done his job right in my opinion this problem wouldn't have arisen as you would have already purchased the property.


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    #71
    GavMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭GavMan


    Sand Wedge wrote: »
    You really should be putting some blame on your own solicitor. If you have paid a booking deposit since last June/July and had not gotten contracts until 4 or 5 months later, then what was your solicitor at? You pay your solicitor good fees and he should having been pushing the purchase through on your behalf. If he had done his job right in my opinion this problem wouldn't have arisen as you would have already purchased the property.

    It hardly looks like an isolated incident to be fair, so not sure blaming one buyers solicitor is entirely fair.


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    #72
    Sand Wedge
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Sand Wedge


    GavMan wrote: »
    It hardly looks like an isolated incident to be fair, so not sure blaming one buyers solicitor is entirely fair.

    If i was in the OP's situation that is who I would be putting some blame on as this is the person who I am paying to act on my behalf.


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    #73
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Why would we have learned anything? The government while rushing to gouge low and middle income tax payers has singularly failed to tackle any of the legislative and regulatory gaps which allow this kind of inequity to occur, i.e. property law and regulation of the legal sector. The troika have continually criticised the failure to tighten the reins on professional fees and standards and yet all the effort has been to introduce water charges, something the troika really werent all that exercised about.

    There is nothing to stop the solicitors of developers and sellers sitting on contracts to delay sales and gazzump buyers, they simply have no protection. I know nothing about the OPs case so cannot say if this it what happened, but we all know situations where it did happen in the boom. Forget developers, it was the legal sector that caused the boom and bust, and will do so again.

    If I was the OP and I had a healthy wedge from his returned deposit I would consider it a bullet dodged and invest in obtaining a visa to Canada.
    The Law Reform Commission studied this very issue 15 years ago and recommended that there be no change. Buyers wouldn't be able to get their deposits back if a binding contract came into being on a booking deposit being paid. That would mean investigating the deal before paying a booking deposit and agreeing a price!
    The law is as it is for good reasons and not due to political inertia.

    http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Reports/rGazumping.htm


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    #74
    GavMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭GavMan


    Sand Wedge wrote: »
    If i was in the OP's situation that is who I would be putting some blame on as this is the person who I am paying to act on my behalf.

    How do you know he wasn't?

    He could have got on to the guys every day of the week but the OP's solicitor cant physically make the developers solicitor send on the contract.

    He could have been getting the run around.

    The point being we don't know the full story


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    #75
    chiefinio
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chiefinio


    Same thing happened to me and my partner.....same development. Deposit down since summer of last year. Deposit returned before Christmas.


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    #76
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    and in 5 years people will all blame the government again if the market falls again.....As a nation we need to grow up on how we view and buy property, and the legislation needs to back this up. ie in this case the deposit and price is final. no "gazumping" or whatever.


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    #77
    chiefinio
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chiefinio


    Im afraid this seems to be just the start of this kind of thing. Our estate agent rang us yesterday in relation to another property in the area that we have a deposit on and urged us to get contracts signed fast as there is talk of a price increase among the develops of that site also. A price isn't a price until contracts are signed it seems.


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    #78
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    chiefinio wrote: »
    Im afraid this seems to be just the start of this kind of thing. Our estate agent rang us yesterday in relation to another property in the area that we have a deposit on and urged us to get contracts signed fast as there is talk of a price increase among the develops of that site also. A price isn't a price until contracts are signed it seems.

    I don't know your specifics but just to be clear, this person is not your estate agent if he's acting for the developer/vendor. His fees are being paid by someone else, although they are contingent on you paying money, and your well-being is none of his/her concern nor does he owe you any duty to act in your best interests or look after them.

    Other than that, yes it is correct to say that the price is not considered to be agreed until contracts are signed and either party can 'negotiate' up to that point. When the market is up and down this goes in cycles as regards whether its the vendor imposing a price hike or the buyer looking to chisel away at the sale-agreed price prior to signing.


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    #79
    chiefinio
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭chiefinio


    I am aware of this thanks. Obviously I meant that agent we are dealing, didn't think this needed to be pointed out. Regardless you are right he is hired by the vendors so it goes to my point about him warning us of a proposed price increase. It is in the estate agents favour to say nothing as he would be due to earn more if the price did increase.


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    #80
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    chiefinio wrote: »
    I am aware of this thanks. Obviously I meant that agent we are dealing, didn't think this needed to be pointed out. Regardless you are right he is hired by the vendors so it goes to my point about him warning us of a proposed price increase. It is in the estate agents favour to say nothing as he would be due to earn more if the price did increase.

    Yes.

    So why would he blow his fee increase ? What a bloody nice fellow.

    His client would also be very annoyed with him as he's basically going around costing them money. How is he still in a job.

    Look, I don't know the specifics. Just proceed with caution and trust your instincts, independently of what someone else's man tells you you should do. His money comes in when you sign and pay.

    If that is obvious my apologies - you know what they say about advice.


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    #81
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I ask again would the people who were given back their deposit have paid the agreed price if house prices had fallen?


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    #82
    shelle8726
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭shelle8726


    Its scary and crazy that its going back to this with estate agents & developers. There really needs to be legislation put in place to protect buyers in this country. As it stands, estate agents and developers can do what they like and with the demand that's there they are succeeding.
    We were all set on buying new property & I was feeling sad this week that it looks like we're going to have to buy something 2nd hand now but its probably the safest bet to be honest. It may not be the fabulous 4 bed show house we imagined but at least there'll be a lot less stress once we've found something and signed contracts.
    I hope for future buyers, legislation can eventually be put in place that can protect purchasers... as it stands estate agents and developers are destroying the property market once again...


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    #83
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I ask again would the people who were given back their deposit have paid the agreed price if house prices had fallen?

    well thats the way it needs to be. Full transparency both ways. Make the deposit payment date price agreed the final price.


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    #84
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    Look, the bottom line is that when you have a contract, you have a contract and can enforce it in every way, including as to price.

    When you don't have a contract, you can't.

    And rightly so - its a matter private/personal to the parties as to whether they agree to contract with each other and either is entitled to back up right up until they sign.

    Where land is concerned the law, for good reason, requires the contract to be evidenced in writing as opposed to oral. The problem is not the enforceability of an agreement to agree (which is all you have when you pay a booking deposit), its the skewed market place in which people (both vendors/purchasers) are operating and the incentivisation of undesirable conduct (desirable for the individual but not for society on a more general level).

    'we need legislation to protect buyers' is nothing more than a moan, with all due respect, but people will sign up to it right up until they cease to become buyers and join a different vested interest group.

    What we actually need is a functional property market. Forget about 'legislation' to stop people increasing prices. For as long as the property market is affected by protection of vested interest groups, it will be skewed, and individuals (currently people who want to buy a house) will suffer the consequences.


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    #85
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Orlaw3136 wrote: »
    Yes.

    So why would he blow his fee increase ? What a bloody nice fellow.

    His client would also be very annoyed with him as he's basically going around costing them money. How is he still in a job.

    Look, I don't know the specifics. Just proceed with caution and trust your instincts, independently of what someone else's man tells you you should do. His money comes in when you sign and pay.

    If that is obvious my apologies - you know what they say about advice.

    Maybe the agent knows what will happen when word of these shenanigans gets out, and coupled with a price increase might feel that its better to secure a guaranteed sale rather than hold out of one that might be longer coming?


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    #86
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    well thats the way it needs to be. Full transparency both ways. Make the deposit payment date price agreed the final price.

    No.

    Or rather, how would you feel if paying the deposit created an enforceable contract and you as buyer paid your deposit, then found out the title was dodgy or there was a structural problem and you were obliged to complete and could be sued to do so ?

    There is a reason why a contract to purchase an interest in land requires more formality than one to purchase an apple. Or a car. It serves both sides (although not at the same time at all times).


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    #87
    shelle8726
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭shelle8726


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    I ask again would the people who were given back their deposit have paid the agreed price if house prices had fallen?

    Yes I would have paid the agreed price!! I agreed it as I felt at the time is was a good deal for a 4 bed new house, and had the conversation with the estate agent when handing over my holding deposit that if they went up in value would we still pay the price we agreed and he replied saying yes of course, and if they go down in value we'd still have to pay the agreed price and we said yes of course!


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    #88
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    djimi wrote: »
    Maybe the agent knows what will happen when word of these shenanigans gets out, and coupled with a price increase might feel that its better to secure a guaranteed sale rather than hold out of one that might be longer coming?

    Maybe he does, in which case he should go into the crystal ball gazing business.

    Look its fairly simple - it may in fact be in the buyers interest to sign contracts if they actually want to buy the bloody house, but they shouldn't act on 'advice' which comes from a source who owes them no duty whatsoever to protect their interests and in fact has a competing interest. That's all I'm saying.
    shelle8726 wrote: »
    Yes I would have paid the agreed price!! I agreed it as I felt at the time is was a good deal for a 4 bed new house, and had the conversation with the estate agent when handing over my holding deposit that if they went up in value would we still pay the price we agreed and he replied saying yes of course, and if they go down in value we'd still have to pay the agreed price and we said yes of course!

    Like this bloke - who knows well that nothing of his oral conversation can ever be relied upon to bind his client, but is nonetheless happy to spout whatever helps the sale to get underway (going by what is reported of course I wasn't present at the conversation). He's given the clear impression that the 'price agreed' is the price nominated at the point of the deposit when legally, as he knows, the 'price agreed' is the price on the contract when signed. It's not his job or duty to advise the buyer otherwise.


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    #89
    shelle8726
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭shelle8726


    Orlaw3136 wrote: »
    Look, the bottom line is that when you have a contract, you have a contract and can enforce it in every way, including as to price.

    When you don't have a contract, you can't.

    And rightly so - its a matter private/personal to the parties as to whether they agree to contract with each other and either is entitled to back up right up until they sign.

    Where land is concerned the law, for good reason, requires the contract to be evidenced in writing as opposed to oral. The problem is not the enforceability of an agreement to agree (which is all you have when you pay a booking deposit), its the skewed market place in which people (both vendors/purchasers) are operating and the incentivisation of undesirable conduct (desirable for the individual but not for society on a more general level).

    'we need legislation to protect buyers' is nothing more than a moan, with all due respect, but people will sign up to it right up until they cease to become buyers and join a different vested interest group.

    What we actually need is a functional property market. Forget about 'legislation' to stop people increasing prices. For as long as the property market is affected by protection of vested interest groups, it will be skewed, and individuals (currently people who want to buy a house) will suffer the consequences.


    You obviously work in the property industry or have never had the stress of having to buy a property at a time when the market is unstable. If your neither of the above than you are clearly just hear to wind people on this very serious discussion up!!
    Who else would disagree that property BUYERS should be protected...


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    #90
    Orlaw3136
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Orlaw3136


    shelle8726 wrote: »
    You obviously work in the property industry or have never had the stress of having to buy a property at a time when the market is unstable. If your neither of the above than you are clearly just hear to wind people on this very serious discussion up!!
    Who else would disagree that property BUYERS should be protected...

    Not in the industry and currently attempting to negotiate the purchase of a family home (my first).

    Your assertion that I'm winding people up is nonsense; my posts here speak for themselves and I'll invite any objective reader to measure their tone and the worth of their content.
    shelle8726 wrote: »
    Who else would disagree that property BUYERS should be protected...

    It's just that I'm not held captive by my own self-interests, nor am I holding my views subject to an incorrect belief that whatever serves me best at a particular point in time must be done for the good of all.

    I am also capable - unlike yourself, it seems - of forming a balanced view as to whether a particular aspect of contract law or the wider circumstances of the property market are the cause of the problems being experienced.

    But yeah, Team BUYER Go Us, whatever - that's just cheerleading for the vested interest group of which you form a part at this time of your life.

    Say if the contractual position was as you describe - that would expose buyers to far more ills than currently. The reason the increase-in-price-pre-contract bites so hard is because the buyer experiences a severe lack of alternative properties compounded by a rising market (in Dublin), i.e. the buyer feels that they cannot tell the vendor to go and occupy themselves quietly on their own, to put it politely.

    The solution to that is to address the skewed marketplace on a fundamental level. Not to tinker around with contract law in a way which will actually adversely affect the legal interests of the buyer as much as it will do anything else.


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    #91
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    Orlaw3136 wrote: »
    No.

    Or rather, how would you feel if paying the deposit created an enforceable contract and you as buyer paid your deposit, then found out the title was dodgy or there was a structural problem and you were obliged to complete and could be sued to do so ?

    There is a reason why a contract to purchase an interest in land requires more formality than one to purchase an apple. Or a car. It serves both sides (although not at the same time at all times).

    well we are talking about price changes here....nothing else....


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