Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Robson99

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

He might fit in but the question was would he weaken the side and based on any reasonable assessment of his form over the last two years then yes he would weaken Bayern.

The way he was playing with Dortmund he would fit in quiet easily

Deiseboy01

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Kagawa would fit into the Bayern team easily, no question.

I respectfully suggest you visit Specsavers at the earliest opportunity.

If Kagawa would "fit into the Bayern team easily" which is the best team in Europe he should surely be in the Utd team?

Rooney and RvP would get in. Not so sure about Mata.

Robson99

rarnes1 wrote: »

If Kagawa would "fit into the Bayern team easily" which is the best team in Europe he should surely be in the Utd team?

Rooney and RvP would get in. Not so sure about Mata.

The way we are playing football at the moment even Messi would struggle to fit in to our team. Fullback to winger cross, winger to fullback cross. He might get 5 touches in a game

Mata? The best player in the EPL for the last two years. Seriously???

Deiseboy01

Robson99 wrote: »

The way he was playing with Dortmund he would fit in quiet easily

That was three seasons ago. George Best would get into the current Bayern team based on his form 40+ yrs ago but he might struggle now.

jimmytwotimes 2013

lordgoat wrote: »

i'd agree with this.

Q: How many current united players (outfield) could have played on the Bayern team last night without weakening it? (Without altering how the play)

For me:

Mata
Kagawa
RVP
Rooney
Janz

(Yet all 5 of these couldn't play at the same time.

At a push:
Rio
Evra

Mata and RVP at their absolute best would have a place on the Bayern team but that'd be it in my opinion.

I haven't seen Rooney perform as a world-class player since 2010. His performances prior to his ankle injury against Bayern were out of this world that year, not since though.

Any of the others mentioned would be well short of the current standard at Bayern, especially Rio and Evra who can barely make the standard at united and that is a poor standard this year.

Will I Amnt

No

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

I respectfully suggest you visit Specsavers at the earliest opportunity.

In fairness, the question was would they fit in without really weakening the team. I think it's fair to say that Kagawa has the ability to slot right into that Bayern team and not hold them back.

Deiseboy01

Will I Amnt wrote: »

In fairness, the question was would they fit in without really weakening the team. I think it's fair to say that Kagawa has the ability to slot right into that Bayern team and not hold them back.

Has the ability, potentially, and I'm not even sure at his best he would be better than what they have already, but right now based on current form he has no chance.

SherlockWatson

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

I respectfully suggest you visit Specsavers at the earliest opportunity.

Ability =\= Form.


I take it you never saw him at Dortmund.

Robson99

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

That was three seasons ago. George Best would get into the current Bayern team based on his form 40+ yrs ago but he might struggle now.

Kagawa hasnt become a poor player since he left Dortmund and has played quiet well for us at times. Hes still only 24 or 25 so its not as if age has caught up with him.

RVP has been average by his standards this season. Does that mean he wouldnt fit in??

IamtheWalrus

A lot of people on here (myself included) wondered had Utd bought Park II with Kagawa but at this rate, Utd would be grateful for a few Three-Lung-level performances.

Winston Payne

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

A lot of people on here (myself included) wondered had Utd bought Park II with Kagawa but at this rate, Utd would be grateful for a few Three-Lung-level performances.

You might be happy to espouse casual racism and indeed to indulge in it, but I'd say most folks would be leery of you dragging them into it, actually.

lordgoat

No

keane2097 wrote: »

Christ almighty you're absolutely crazy if you would rate Januzaj as able to get anywhere near the Bayern team.

The Januzaj thing has to stop.

I've been one of his harshest critics all season. Have a read of my post properly.

rarnes1 wrote: »

If Kagawa would "fit into the Bayern team easily" which is the best team in Europe he should surely be in the Utd team?

Rooney and RvP would get in. Not so sure about Mata.

It's the style of football they play. Close control quick passing at a high tempo. He'd fit in easily. So too would Mata and RVP. I think Rooney would struggle the most as his touch isn't as good as the others.

IamtheWalrus

Winston Payne wrote: »

You might be happy to espouse casual racism and indeed to indulge in it, but I'd say most folks would be leery of you dragging them into it, actually.

lol

Robson99

lordgoat wrote: »

It's the style of football they play. Close control quick passing at a high tempo. He'd fit in easily. So too would Mata and RVP. I think Rooney would struggle the most as his touch isn't as good as the others.

Id agree fully. Rooney would be better than Mandzukic as a CF IMO

lordgoat

No

Robson99 wrote: »

Id agree fully. Rooney would be better than Mandzukic as a CF IMO

Yep. And RVP would be even better for them in there!

lordgoat

No

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

A lot of people on here (myself included) wondered had Utd bought Park II with Kagawa but at this rate, Utd would be grateful for a few Three-Lung-level performances.

A lot of people on here (myself included) wondered why Kagawa isn't played more even though he does this when he plays but is often let down by team mates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWo15oL7o4

Backstreet Moyes

I think Kagawa is too intelligent for his teammates. The football we play just doesn't suit him. He would be fantastic for any of Arsenal, City, Chelsea and Liverpool.

Your Airbag

Nuts102 wrote: »

I think Kagawa is too intelligent for his teammates. The football we play just doesn't suit him. He would be fantastic for any of Arsenal, City, Chelsea and Liverpool.

Of all the excuses made for him, this has to be the worst. No offence Nuts but you cant point the finger at anyone else but Kagawa.

He simply can't cut it as yet in the EPL. Its nothing to do with being smarter than anyone else. If anything he can't keep up physically and mentally with the pace.

We have seen glimpses of what he can do but its never been amazing and he simply hasn't earned the right to be in our first eleven.

This is coming from somebody who likes him.

IamtheWalrus

Your Airbag wrote: »

Of all the excuses made for him, this has to be the worst. No offence Nuts but you cant point the finger at anyone else but Kagawa.

He simply can't cut it as yet in the EPL. Its nothing to do with being smarter than anyone else. If anything he can't keep up physically and mentally with the pace.

We have seen glimpses of what he can do but its never been amazing and he simply hasn't earned the right to be in our first eleven.

This is coming from somebody who likes him.

Spot on.

MagicMarker

Kagawa has never been given a proper chance in fairness to him. And I mean a proper chance, a continuous run of games in his preferred position. Even when he does play well he invariably gets dropped.

Disgraceful how he's been treated tbh.

Rayne Wooney

Your Airbag wrote: »

Of all the excuses made for him, this has to be the worst. No offence Nuts but you cant point the finger at anyone else but Kagawa.

He simply can't cut it as yet in the EPL. Its nothing to do with being smarter than anyone else. If anything he can't keep up physically and mentally with the pace.

We have seen glimpses of what he can do but its never been amazing and he simply hasn't earned the right to be in our first eleven.

This is coming from somebody who likes him.

Don't agree at all.

Kagawa's movement has been head and shoulders above everyone else at times yet we hadn't a soul in the team who could regularly link up with him and 90% of our players can't at all.

Same with Mata his movement has been great and he stands out and an advantage is that is/will be playing with both Rooney and RVP who are 2 of the few who can actually link up whereas Kagawa hasn't played with them both much.

IMO Kagawa is a fantastic player for the right system, the system we should be playing, and the times he's played in the hole have been our best football.

To say Kagawa's intelligent movement cannot be comprehend by most of our team isn't ridiculous at all and IMO fairly accurate.

Your Airbag

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Don't agree at all.

Kagawa's movement has been head and shoulders above everyone else at times yet we hadn't a soul in the team who could regularly link up with him and 90% of our players can't at all.

Same with Mata his movement has been great and he stands out and an advantage is that is/will be playing with both Rooney and RVP who are 2 of the few who can actually link up whereas Kagawa hasn't played with them both much.

IMO Kagawa is a fantastic player for the right system, the system we should be playing, and the times he's played in the hole have been our best football.

If Kagawa can't adjust to the team and league we change for him? No. If he was that good he would find a way. He has got games against poor opposition in his fave position and been ok. He has been completely anonymous in some games. He has struggled and been taken off in games.

His movement has been good but not consistantly. He has struggled physically and to make his passes count in the final third, Some games have totally passed him by. He has been found lacking in many areas.

Kagawa has one season plus this. Mata has had three games. The comparison is not valid yet but Mata has three assists in three games, he didn't struggle to settle like Kagawa,

We all know what he can do but that was in one of the top two teams in a two team (now one team) league in Germany. He hasn't cut in the hustle and bustle of the EPL and its down to the player and nobody else.

As much as I him like we need to accept the reality. So far he hasn't worked out. I hope it changes but the excuses need to stop.

Robson99

Your Airbag wrote: »

He has been found lacking in many areas.

Kagawa has one season plus this. Mata has had three games. The comparison is not valid yet but Mata has three assists in three games, he didn't struggle to settle like Kagawa,

Only thing Kagawa is lacking is a couple of decent middle of the park players who can bring him into the game and the manager to forget about his shyte crossing style of play.

Mata has been playing longer and more regularly in the EPL than Kagawa. He should settle in far easier

Backstreet Moyes

Your Airbag wrote: »

Of all the excuses made for him, this has to be the worst. No offence Nuts but you cant point the finger at anyone else but Kagawa.

He simply can't cut it as yet in the EPL. Its nothing to do with being smarter than anyone else. If anything he can't keep up physically and mentally with the pace.

We have seen glimpses of what he can do but its never been amazing and he simply hasn't earned the right to be in our first eleven.

This is coming from somebody who likes him.

How can you say he can't cut it in the league. He has never got a decent run of games and he is playing with a team that don't suit his strengths.

Our football is too slow and static without little movement. His game is about quick pass and move attacking football. He would be fantastic at any other top club in England who play good football. During his time with United i have watched Japan and think what a waste we are making of this genius. The sooner he moves on the better.

Rayne Wooney

He has played 3 1/2 games worth of minutes in his favoured position, and you'd think by the way people go on that those games were in a row and he was crap in them, but in reality they weren't and he wasn't.

40 minutes here, 30 minutes a few weeks later, maybe 45 minutes two months on from this. It's ridiculous.

And even though all of this, the times he has played in the hole have been an obvious improvement and the best football we've played this season. His class has shone through despite the Stone Age setup he is played in and laughable playing time in the position he dominated in with Dortmund.

I think him and Mata can play in a team together but we need to abandon the crossing philosophy and adapt to use the attacking talent we have. Ideally Rooney will go up top with Kagawa behind and Mata right side and Januzaj left. We should buy a player suited to slot into any of those positions, similar to Gotze(but obviously not actually Gotze before the Pool fans get excited and quote me over in their thread), I don't think Januzaj is ready and could be the rotator for any of the 3.

The_Kew_Tour

No

United to play Roma on 26th July and Inter on 29th July confirmed games in the States.

IamtheWalrus

MagicMarker wrote: »

Kagawa...

Disgraceful how he's been treated tbh.

I don't get this treatment stuff. Neither Fergie nor Moyes have seen enough quality to warranty a long run in the team. Isn't it up to Kagawa to make it impossible to drop him. He mustn't be doing it in training either. He was Fergie's buy and yet he didn't play him a lot.

lordgoat

No

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I don't get this treatment stuff. Neither Fergie nor Moyes have seen enough quality to warranty a long run in the team. Isn't it up to Kagawa to make it impossible to drop him. He mustn't be doing it in training either. He was Fergie's buy and yet he didn't play him a lot.

Fairly impossible to fit in a classy player to a style that's so backwards it isn't even funny. Kagawa won't put in many crosses unless he's sure there's someone at the end of it.


My original point was that Bayern play a great style of football, one i'd like united to play or one similar to it. Even if we had a manager that wished to play it we don't have the players throughout the team to do so.

Backstreet Moyes

lordgoat wrote: »

Fairly impossible to fit in a classy player to a style that's so backwards it isn't even funny. Kagawa won't put in many crosses unless he's sure there's someone at the end of it.


My original point was that Bayern play a great style of football, one i'd like united to play or one similar to it. Even if we had a manager that wished to play it we don't have the players throughout the team to do so.

Do you not think a top midfielder or two could let us move towards that style. Mata, Janjuaz and Kagawa would all relish that role in behind RVP or Rooney.

The_Kew_Tour

No

If Bayern meet Barca at any stage in CL, Bayern will beat them again.

lordgoat

No

Nuts102 wrote: »

Do you not think a top midfielder or two could let us move towards that style. Mata, Janjuaz and Kagawa would all relish that role in behind RVP or Rooney.

It's more the outlook than the players that need to change but I think we need players that are good on the ball and we need them in centre midfield especially.

bucketybuck

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

If Kagawa can't adjust to the team and league we change for him? No.

Yeah, why should we change for Kagawa when the likes of Valencia and Young have been so successful all season!

beno619

No

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

He was Fergie's buy and yet he didn't play him a lot.

Ridiculous misconception I have heard a few times on this thread, Fergie played him quite a bit but he missed 2-3 months of his debut season through injury.

Edit: 6 goals and 5 assists in 20 starts last season very solid first season in the division.

Exceptional whenever he plays in his best position and improves the players around him.

Laughable to judge him by his performances on the wing Rooney is a ****e winger as well..

Rayne Wooney

Kagawa made 26 apps for United last season despite injury and by all accounts Fergie left Moyes a glowing report of Kagawa and is possibly why Moyes wasn't in for Ozil.

This was mostly all left wing, and even left wing he is tidy, will retain possession and have a high 90s pass completion, what he will lack is crosses but he ain't a blooming winger so why would he and he's playing on the side of his "bad" foot as well to add to this.

It's really terrible management overall.

I'm praying Moyes changes the tactics in the summer when we get better midfielders and defenders, if he doesn't it won't work and he'll be sacked and the next manager will have to change it.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

Ridiculous misconception I have heard a few times on this thread, Fergie played him quite a bit but he missed 2-3 months of his debut season through injury.

Edit: 6 goals and 5 assists in 20 starts last season very solid first season in the division.

Exceptional whenever he plays in his best position and improves the players around him.

Laughable to judge him by his performances on the wing Rooney is a ****e winger as well..

3 of those 6 goals were scored in one match against a very poor Norwich team visiting OT. 5 assists is poor for a playmaker.

Kagawa did not have a good first season, he struggled. He was a passenger in many games. That Norwich game is the only game were he stood out and look above average.

Ridiculous misconceptions indeed.

lordgoat

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

3 of those 6 goals were scored in one match against a very poor Norwich team visiting OT. 5 assists is poor for a playmaker.

Kagawa did not have a good first season, he struggled. He was a passenger in many games. That Norwich game is the only game were he stood out and look above average.

Ridiculous misconceptions indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWo15oL7o4

Peter Flynt

Kagawa's problem is that he is playing in a team surrounded by players who aren't as good as the players he played with at Dortmund.

Put Messi into the Stoke team and the same would occur.

Rayne Wooney

lordgoat wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWo15oL7o4

And that's just him crossing playing left wing, imagine what he'd do given a run behind the striker

A load of this me thinks



Anyway enough of the Kagawa stuff from me, time to focus on the tough game coming up against Palace.

F.J.

To borrow one of our esteemed managers favourite words.Kagawa is unlucky not to have any assists registered too his name.

Deiseboy01

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Ability =\= Form.


I take it you never saw him at Dortmund.

Never replicated his form for Utd. Now there may be excuses for that, not given a run if games etc. but the best manager there's ever been in Britian didn't overly fancy him. Moyes doesn't and 90% of the support think he's not been impressive when he has had a chance so I think it's safe to assume you're on the wrong side of this argument.

Deiseboy01

Robson99 wrote: »

Kagawa hasnt become a poor player since he left Dortmund and has played quiet well for us at times. Hes still only 24 or 25 so its not as if age has caught up with him.

RVP has been average by his standards this season. Does that mean he wouldnt fit in??

Rubbish argument. RVP has been one of the stand out players in the PL for years. Was brilliant for us last season, has been injured for much of this one but has still performed when he has been fit. Bar one or two games Kag hadn't. Can't actually believe the leaway he gets on here. If he was a 24 yr old English player he'd be ripped to shreds by people for performing as he has.

Peter Flynt

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Never replicated his form for Utd. Now there may be excuses for that, not given a run if games etc. but the best manager there's ever been in Britian didn't overly fancy him. Moyes doesn't and 90% of the support think he's not been impressive when he has had a chance so I think it's safe to assume you're on the wrong side of this argument.

The best manager you refer to attended the 2012 German Cup Final to watch Kagawa play a huge roll in ripping apart Bayern in a 5-2 hammering. . . With Kagawa scoring the first goal after 3 minutes

That Bayern team that day was as follows:

GK 1 Manuel Neuer
RB 21 Philipp Lahm (c)
CB 17 Jérôme Boateng
CB 28 Holger Badstuber
LB 27 David Alaba
CM 30 Luiz Gustavo
CM 31 Bastian Schweinsteiger
RW 10 Arjen Robben
LW 7 Franck Ribéry
AM 39 Toni Kroos
CF 33 Mario Gómez

Kagawa's performance was sensational that day. .So Fergie signed him.

Problem for Kagawa was that he turned up at OT to realise he was playing with players like Cleverley and Jones. . .

As regards Moyes not fancying him . . . Well alot of Man U fans don't fancy Moyes (the man who spent 28 million on Felliani)

Maximus Alexander

Looking forward to Saturday now after having no match last weekend.

Sit down around 5 o'clock to watch the build up. Speculate about the result and complain because Valencia / Young are in the starting line up and Kagawa isn't, but salivate a little over Rooney, RVP, Mata, Januzaj.

Watch the players warming up whilst listening to the commentators make their odd predictions. Crack open a beer, get the warm fuzzies as that last ad break comes to an end and the pitch transitions into view.

Players standing in the center circle, whistle blows, cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross ...

... ...

... cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross cross

Head in hands. Open many more beers. Football. Love it.

Your Airbag

lordgoat wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWo15oL7o4

Your point is? That video had some good and some not so good play.

I didn't see anything wrong with the intelligence and movement of his teammates either.

Now the video has reminded me of the two games against Bayern Leverkusen where Kagawa looked good. It was against German opposition that we walked over home and away. Utd playing as poor as they have been this season and we brushed them aside with 9 goals put past them.

A German team now second in their league. Where was the lack of intelligence from the players around Kagawa during both matches?

It had nothing to do with his team mates. It was all to do with the poor oppositon Kagawa was used to week in week out back in Germany. He looked so good for Dortmund because outside the top two teams the league is very weak. There is a lot more strenght in the EPL and it has exposed Kagawa a little in terms of the lack of quality he is used to playing every week.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

It was all to do with the poor oppositon Kagawa was used to week in week out back in Germany. He looked so good for Dortmund because outside the top two teams the league is very weak. There is a lot more strenght in the EPL

Have you evidence to back that up?

I don't think you have. . . .

As regards strength in the EPL. . . Puhleasseeeee!!

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Have you evidence to back that up?

I don't think you have. . . .

As regards strength in the EPL. . . Puhleasseeeee!!

We, plaYing poorly put 9 goals past the second placed team in the German league. Bayern are 16 points clear at the top of the league.

You think the EPL isn't strong? Lets have your evidence.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

We, plaYing poorly put 9 goals past the second placed team in the German league. Bayern are 16 points clear at the top of the league.

You think the EPL isn't strong? Lets have your evidence.

Leverkusen have a weird history of strange performances/results in the Champions League (they did famously knock Utd out in a semi final in 2002).

Sure they were awful against United. . . But they beat Shaktar Donestk 4-0 at home where United where scraping 1-0 against them.

Four German teams are still in the last 16 of the CL at present (as are 4 English teams).

As things stand it looks as if there will be more Bundesliga teams in the quarter final of the CL than English teams this season. . . Just like last season where none of the EPL teams made the quarter final.

There are good players playing in the EPL. . . but there's a lot of dross among the lower teams. That's not the case in Germany.

The_Kew_Tour

No

From games I have seen in other leagues, I think the PL is the strongest from top to bottom along with Germany.

The thing is the top teams in Germany and Spain at the minute are a level above the best teams in PL.

That was on show last couple of nights.

Peter Flynt

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

From games I have seen in other leagues, I think the PL is the strongest from top to bottom along with Germany.

The thing is the top teams in Germany and Spain at the minute are a level above the best teams in PL.

That was on show last couple of nights.

Eintracht Frankfurt are involved in a relegation battle at present . . . and they drew 2-2 away to Porto (a CL regular) tonight in the Europa League.