Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Rayne Wooney

I really hate those kinds of arguments

Bayern beat Dortmund, Leverkusen beat Dortmund

Leverkusen drew with Bayern, United beat Leverkusen

United = best team in the world

Using that logic

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

It had nothing to do with his team mates. It was all to do with the poor oppositon Kagawa was used to week in week out back in Germany. He looked so good for Dortmund because outside the top two teams the league is very weak. There is a lot more strenght in the EPL and it has exposed Kagawa a little in terms of the lack of quality he is used to playing every week.

Your ignoring the dozen or so open goals Kagawa creates for his team mates only to be wasted.

I also can't remember any United midfielder scoring a hattrick against any premier league opposition in recent times. I'd be surprised if any midfield player has 5 assists this season for United. Again this all came when he was out wide for Fergie.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Four German teams are still in the last 16 of the CL at present (as are 4 English teams).

As things stand it looks as if there will be more Bundesliga teams in the quarter final of the CL than English teams this season. . . Just like last season where none of the EPL teams made the quarter final.

There are good players playing in the EPL. . . but there's a lot of dross among the lower teams. That's not the case in Germany.

Leverkusen were just beaten 4 nil at home by PSG. They are finished. Schalke have to play Madrid, there will be two German teams left if BVB can go through. City and Arsenal had to play Barca and Bayern with ten men. Two of the top teams if not the top two in the world.

The fact you using this to try make the point that Germany doesn't have a lot dross unlike the EPL is laughable. Your not even close to being logical.

jamaamaj

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I really hate those kinds of arguments

Bayern beat Dortmund, Leverkusen beat Dortmund

Leverkusen drew with Bayern, United beat Leverkusen

United = best team in the world

Using that logic

IamtheWalrus

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Problem for Kagawa was that he turned up at OT to realise he was playing with players like Cleverley and Jones. . .

Poor lickle Kagawa.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

Leverkusen were just beaten 4 nil at home by PSG. They are finished. Schalke have to play Madrid, there will be two German teams left if BVB can go through. City and Arsenal had to play Barca and Bayern with ten men. Two of the top teams if not the top two in the world.

The fact you using this to try make the point that Germany doesn't have a lot dross unlike the EPL is laughable. Your not even close to being logical.

....and deservedly beaten.

City & Arsenal are as good as out - the fact that they each had a man sent off is irrelevant. Both were correct decisions.

Schalke will probably lose to Madrid and I suspect Dortmund will beat Zenit.

Will Man U beat Olympiakos?

Your problem is that you've never attended Bundesliga matches. . . and you are proceeding to make an assumption based on what SKY SPORTS tell you is the case.

Rayne Wooney

Some response time to that one

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Leverkusen were just beaten 4 nil at home by PSG. They are finished. Schalke have to play Madrid, there will be two German teams left if BVB can go through. City and Arsenal had to play Barca and Bayern with ten men. Two of the top teams if not the top two in the world.

The fact you using this to try make the point that Germany doesn't have a lot dross unlike the EPL is laughable. Your not even close to being logical.

Liverpool bet Arsenal 5-1, Arsenal are dross. Spurs got smashed by Liverpool and City sure thier dross as well. League form means nothing.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

Your ignoring the dozen or so open goals Kagawa creates for his team mates only to be wasted.

I also can't remember any United midfielder scoring a hattrick against any premier league opposition in recent times. I'd be surprised if any midfield player has 5 assists this season for United. Again this all came when he was out wide for Fergie.

I'm not. Your ignoring how poor Kagawa has been besides what is shown in that youtube clip.

Mata has three assists in three games for UTD, two of those games were out wide. Has Mata or Adnan struggled because of the poor MF pair behind them? No.

Why don't we excuse Young and Val because they too have to play with Clev and Carrick?

Kagawa hasn't been good for UTD because of Kagawa and nobody else. This is why he is struggling to get into the first eleven.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm not. Your ignoring how poor Kagawa has been besides what is shown in that youtube clip.

Mata has three assists in three games for UTD, two of those games were out wide. Has Mata or Adnan struggled because of the poor MF pair behind them? No.

Why don't we excuse Young and Val because they too have to play with Clev and Carrick?

Kagawa hasn't been good for UTD because of Kagawa and nobody else. This is why he is struggling to get into the first eleven.

Judging Mata after three matches is hardly fair. . . FWIW I thought he had a poor game against Stoke and got lost in a tidal wave of crosses against Fulham. Januzai has had a good first season . . but he's not the player some think he is.

I don't think that Kagawa has been given a proper chance. . . As a consequence his confidence has suffered. How come Moyes/Fergie persist(ed) with players like Cleverley, Jones & Young?

Kagawa's biggest mistake was joining United in the first place.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

....and deservedly beaten.

City & Arsenal are as good as out - the fact that they each had a man sent off is irrelevant. Both were correct decisions.

Schalke will probably lose to Madrid and I suspect Dortmund will beat Zenit.

Will Man U beat Olympiakos?

Your problem is that you've never attended Bundesliga matches. . . and you are proceeding to make an assumption based on what SKY SPORTS tell you is the case.

Yes Bayern were deservedly beaten. You agree with me then.

City and Arsenal are out because they both faced the best teams in the world.

Yes Schalke will probably lose to Madrid. So you agree with me here also. Whats your point again? Oh yes it was that there will only be two EPL teams left in the UCL and more German teams and this proves that the German league isnt full of dross like the EPL???

Yet you agree that there will be only two German teams left straight after?? I don't think you thought this through.

btw the way BVB are playing lately they are not looking a safe bet to go through.

beno619 wrote: »

Liverpool bet Arsenal 5-1, Arsenal are dross. Spurs got smashed by Liverpool and City sure thier dross as well. League form means nothing.

Leaghue form means nothing? Lol. It means everything.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning Spurs.

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm not. Your ignoring how poor Kagawa has been besides what is shown in that youtube clip.

Mata has three assists in three games for UTD, two of those games were out wide. Has Mata or Adnan struggled because of the poor MF pair behind them? No.

Why don't we excuse Young and Val because they too have to play with Clev and Carrick?

Kagawa hasn't been good for UTD because of Kagawa and nobody else. This is why he is struggling to get into the first eleven.

I'm not ignoring anything, He had a solid debut season under Fergie.

Has played out of position and struggled like 80% of the squad this season.

Mata has struggled similar under this manager imo and the video points out how Kagawa could easily have 6-8 assists to his name. I havnt used the midfield as an excuse for Kagawa as I believe he makes Clev and Carrick better. Young and Valencia play in their correct positions so pointless comparison.

Smalling at RB vs CB is a better comparison.

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Leaghue form means nothing? Lol. It means everything.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning Spurs.

You should fix your sarcasm detectors.

Rayne Wooney

Are we completely disregarding the fact that Mata started off as a left wing/midfield player at Valencia, won player of the year playing left wing for Chelsea and only last year really moved into the number 10 role?

Comparing him to Kagawa is ridiculous.

Rooney is shít left wing similar to how Kagawa is

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes Bayern were deservedly beaten. You agree with me then.

City and Arsenal are out because they both faced the best teams in the world.

So the best in the EPL cannot compete with the best in Europe/The World?

Right?

Can I ask you how many BL matches you've attended?

I've attended matches in both leagues for many years.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Kagawa's biggest mistake was joining United in the first place.

This sums it up perfectly.

Its a mistake because why? Because it isn't working out or at least hasn't worked as well as at it did at BVB because Kagawa is in a tougher league and not cutting the mustard yet.

If he was that good he would be a regular for. Out wide or in the middle. His own lack luster form and Rooney out preforming him has meant he is and will be on the bench a lot.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

So the best in the EPL cannot compete with the best in Europe/The World?

Right?

Can I ask you how many BL matches you've attended?

I've attended matches in both leagues for many years.

The fact one team was beaten by another in another league is not a reflection of the entire league itself. A Chelsea team that finished 6th beat Barca and Bayern to win the UCL.

One off results don't paint the entire picture.

How many matches I attended is pointless. I watch a lot of German football on TV, your going to tell me that being in the ground gives you some extra knowledge and adds more weight to your points? No it doesn't.

I watch a lot of Bundesliga and its full of piss poor teams.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

This sums it up perfectly.

Its a mistake because why? Because it isn't working out or at least hasn't worked as well as at it did at BVB because Kagawa is in a tougher league and not cutting the mustard yet.

If he was that good he would be a regular for. Out wide or in the middle. His own lack luster form and Rooney out preforming him has meant he is and will be on the bench a lot.

I've already stated the reason. . . Kagawa is playing with a squad of players who are currently no where near the standard of the squad of players he left behind at Dortmund.

When that happens it can affect a player's game. . . Players like Cleverley, Young & Smalling are nowhere near the standard of Lewandowski, Gundogan & Reus.

Also he has consistently been played out of position. We've all seen the reactions of Rooney in the past when he has been played out of position.

It's basic - you play your players in a position they're most comfortable with.

It's nothing to do with the dross that play at Crystal Palace, Norwich, WBA. .

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

This sums it up perfectly.

Its a mistake because why? Because it isn't working out or at least hasn't worked as well as at it did at BVB because Kagawa is in a tougher league and not cutting the mustard yet.

If he was that good he would be a regular for. Out wide or in the middle. His own lack luster form and Rooney out preforming him has meant he is and will be on the bench a lot.

Yep use of Kagawa is one of the few things Moyes has gotten right.

Can you honestly deny that our best football and victories this season have not come when Kagawa played in the hole ?

Guess who played behind RVP in the magical period at the start of last season where Ando and Clev were in fire... Shinji..

Your Airbag

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Are we completely disregarding the fact that Mata started off as a left wing/midfield player at Valencia, won player of the year playing left wing for Chelsea and only last year really moved into the number 10 role?

Comparing him to Kagawa is ridiculous.

Rooney is shít left wing similar to how Kagawa is

No we are not ignoring it. It was mentioned how he has three assists in three and two of those matches had Mata playing wide. He won player of the month playing out wide for Chelsea. He has been voted Chelseas player of the season mostly playing in the centre.

So its clear Mata has preformed well both out wide and in the centre where Kagawa has not.

Its not being ignored its the reason why poeple are right to say Kagawa hasn't been good for us.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

your going to tell me that being in the ground gives you some extra knowledge and adds more weight to your points? No it doesn't.

Yes it does. Dramatically.

These piss poor teams you refer to are feeder clubs for the likes of the team you're calling the best in the world - Bayern M

Dante was signed from Borussia M.
Neuer was signed from Schalke.
Mandzukic was signed from Wolfsburg.
Kroos was signed from Leverkusen.
Rafinha played for Schalke for 6 years before joining BM.

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

No we are not ignoring it. It was mentioned how he has three assists in three and two of those matches had Mata playing wide. He won player of the month playing out wide for Chelsea. He has been voted Chelseas player of the season mostly playing in the centre.

So its clear Mata has preformed well both out wide and in the centre where Kagawa has not.

Its not being ignored its the reason why poeple are right to say Kagawa hasn't been good for us.

He was good for us last season under a better manager and has been good when played in his proper position a fact you seen to be ignoring ?

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I've already stated the reason. . . Kagawa is playing with a squad of players who are currently no where near the standard of the squad of players he left behind at Dortmund.
. .

And its already been stated that the likes of Mata and Adnan haven't struggled playing with those players because they are good players.

Its also been stated Young and Val haven't played well because they are poor players and not who they play with.

Kagawa gets the luxury of the excuse because people are making excuses for him and wont acknowledge the reality of the situation. Kagawa hasn't been good, not poor but not a success.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

Guess who played behind RVP in the magical period at the start of last season where Ando and Clev were in fire... Shinji..

That was two seaons ago that Clev and Ando played well together in about 5 matches at the start of the season.

Kagawa wasn't even at UTD then.

Your just typing without knowing what your saying.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

And its already been stated that the likes of Mata and Adnan haven't struggled playing with those players because they are good players.

Mata has only just joined United FFS.

Januzai has had a good season playing in his preferred position.

The reason why people make a case for Kagawa is because he has a reputation. . . As he has played like this against players/club whom you yourself regard as the best in the world.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Yes it does. Dramatically.

These piss poor teams you refer to are feeder clubs for the likes of the team you're calling the best in the world - Bayern M

Dante was signed from Borussia M.
Neuer was signed from Schalke.
Mandzukic was signed from Wolfsburg.
Kroos was signed from Leverkusen.
Rafinha played for Schalke for 6 years before joining BM.

So the lower teams have their best players bought by the top one or two teams in the league.

How does this make the entire league strong if the only strong players in otherwise average squads move two Bayern M or the other top teams? It doesn't. it weakens the league.

Your making my point for me.

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

That was two seaons ago that Clev and Ando played well together in about 5 matches at the start of the season.

Kagawa wasn't even at UTD then.

Your just typing without knowing what your saying.

My bad, we played good football at the start of last season.

It's lovely how you selectively respond to comments and completely ignore one's that prove your talking Shiite...

I'll ask again so, Has out best football this season come when Kagawa had played in the hole ?

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Mata has only just joined United FFS.

Januzai has had a good season playing in his preferred position.

The reason why people make a case for Kagawa is because he has a reputation. . . As he has played like this against players/club whom you yourself regard as the best in the world.

A sample size of one match means nothing. Teams can raise there games especially in finals.

Arsenal are dross according to you yet they Beat Bayern Munich at home last season when they were poorer then they are this season. Wigan beat Man City in an FA cup final. Man City beat Bayern this season.

Januzajs best position is no. 10 so he is constantly being played out of position.

Some of the points made by beno and you have got many facts wrong. I'm calling it a night.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

So the lower teams have their best players bought by the top one or two teams in the league.

How does this make the entire league strong if the only strong players in otherwise average squads move two Bayern M or the other top teams? It doesn't. it weakens the league.

Your making my point for me.

The point is. . . the likes of the best teams in Germany are buying their players from German clubs and winning the Champions League with them.

The youth policy that occurs among all German clubs means that there's quality still coming through at youth levels to replace the players lost/sold.

Germany were the only country to bring with them 23 players solely from one league to the 2010 World Cup - the Bundesliga.

There were players from Bayern, dortmund, Hertha Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leverkusen, Koln & Werder Bremen.

What happened when they got there?

The won all 3 group matches, pissed all over England (4-1) and Argentina (4-0) before losing narrowly to a brilliant Spanish team.

Sorry for your ignorance.

BloodBath

No

It's easy to make any player look good with highlights. Kagawa has not been good enough but I still think he should get more games. He has shown moments of brilliance.

He might be better in the number 10 role but so would mata. I don't think either of them are out and out wingers. The problem is the wide 4-4-2 system that is played by us.

If we switched to a 4-2-3-1 it would suit both Mata and Kagawa a lot more.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

My bad, we played good football at the start of last season.

It's lovely how you selectively respond to comments and completely ignore one's that prove your talking Shiite...

I'll ask again so, Has out best football this season come when Kagawa had played in the hole ?

No it hasn't. We havent really been good this season. If your talking about Bayern L then the opposition is too poor compared to what we face in the EPL. They shipped 5 to us at home, we had Giggs in mf looking like a boss they were that poor.

I'm done lads, i just can't accept the excuses. Kagawa was good for BVB in a weaker league for reasons outlined already.

He hasn't been as good for us. Its just the reality of it. I like him and hope he turns it around but i would not hold my breath.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

No it hasn't. We havent really been good this season. If your talking about Bayern L then the opposition is too poor compared to what we face in the EPL. They shipped 5 to us at home, we had Giggs in mf looking like a boss they were that poor.

I'm done lads, i just can't accept the excuses. Kagawa was good for BVB in a weaker league for reasons outlined already.

He hasn't been as good for us. Its just the reality of it. I like him and hope he turns it around but i would not hold my breath.

Argument lost on your part. . . Can't wait to see the dross of Palace, Norwich, West Ham, WBA, etc. . this weekend.

:rolleyes:

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The point is. . . the likes of the best teams in Germany are buying their players from German clubs and winning the Champions League with them.

The youth policy that occurs among all German clubs means that there's quality still coming through at youth levels to replace the players lost/sold.

Germany were the only country to bring with them 23 players solely from one league to the 2010 World Cup - the Bundesliga.

There were players from Bayern, dortmund, Hertha Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leverkusen, Koln & Werder Bremen.

What happened when they got there?

The won all 3 group matches, pissed all over England (4-1) and Argentina (4-0) before losing narrowly to a brilliant Spanish team.

Sorry for your ignorance.

Youve now gone from making the point that the lower German teams sell their best players to the two German teams is proof that its stronger as a whole than the EPL to making the point that a national team beating another is a reflection of the strenght of those counteries leagues.

Ignoring the amount of overseas players in the EPL.

Ignorance is right


Goodnight

The_Kew_Tour

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Argument lost on your part. . . Can't wait to see the dross of Palace, Norwich, West Ham, WBA, etc. . this weekend.

:rolleyes:

Watching Palace beat us wont be much fun:pac:

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Argument lost on your part. . . Can't wait to see the dross of Palace, Norwich, West Ham, WBA, etc. . this weekend.

:rolleyes:

An argument is lost statement with a rolly eyes face.
Yes you have surely won

laters

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Januzajs best position is no. 10 so he is constantly being played out of position.

Some of the points made by beno and you have got many facts wrong. I'm calling it a night.

Janazaj is comfortable across the midfield just like Kroos again your ignoring facts.

Swansea is a good example of how much better football can be when Kagawa played in the hole, we tore them apart and played attractive stuff in that second half.

When he does well in his Natural position Norwich and Leverkuzen for example you put it down to poor opposition.

It's fair enough if you don't like him but your talking crap if you doubt his quality or think he's being utilized effectively.

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

Youve now gone from making the point that the lower German teams sell their best players to the two German teams is proof that its stronger as a whole than the EPL to making the point that a national team beating another is a reflection of the strenght of those counteries leagues.

Ignoring the amount of overseas players in the EPL.

Ignorance is right


Goodnight

er. . .There are overseas players in the Bundesliga also. :rolleyes:

When you've got a chance to remove yourself from the exciting WBA v WestHam or Norwich v Crystal Palace. . . Perhaps you might like to like actually attend German football matches. . . rather than watching them from a barstool (which I doubt)

SherlockWatson

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

but the best manager there's ever been in Britian didn't overly fancy him. Moyes doesn't and 90% of the support think he's not been impressive

So you speak for Ferguson, Moyes and 90% of United fans??



It's been well noted that Ferguson left glowing reports of Kagawa, You haven't a clue what Moyes thinks of him, perhaps Moyes thinks he doesn't fit into our new super idiotic tactical system of CROSS CROSS CROSS (he's right, too.)

As for 90% of fans, i'd never be such a tit as to think I can speak for other people.

dfx-

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The point is. . . the likes of the best teams in Germany are buying their players from German clubs and winning the Champions League with them.

Munich have done that...and they have always done that, yet they have only won one Champions League in thirteen years. Munich hoover up all the best players in Germany all the time and are not as successful in the Champions League a lot more often than when they are successful.

Once again, the readiness to believe in Bundesliga players and Germany players - for achieving one Champions League title meanwhile bottling three semifinals and a final in international games - knows no limits.

Germany were the only country to bring with them 23 players solely from one league to the 2010 World Cup - the Bundesliga.

There were players from Bayern, dortmund, Hertha Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leverkusen, Koln & Werder Bremen.

What happened when they got there?

The won all 3 group matches, pissed all over England (4-1) and Argentina (4-0) before losing narrowly to a brilliant Spanish team.

Sorry for your ignorance.

It's not that big a deal since Italy did it in 2006 before then, yet they actually won the competition...beating Germany at home in the semifinal too.

brinty

Christ there has been some dross over the last few pages.....
Anyone looking forward to Saturday...
anyone think we might see the below attacking line up

Mata--Rooney--Kagawa (all interchanging)
--oh Robin Van Persie--

I hope this time away in Dubai might have refocused the whole team and we might see some improvements in the run in to the end of this season!!! We have 14 cup finals to play in at a minimum to the end of the season and need to start showing signs of something..

On the Kagawa thing...Our best result this season was beating Leverkusen 5-0 away from home, i wonder who played in the hole/no 10 role that night!!!

BloodBath

No

Would love to see that line up.

It seems to be the most obvious approach to maximise our attacking talent but Moyes doesn't do obvious so I won't hold my breath.

brinty

We'll probably end up with it being
Fletcher---Mata
Valencia---Young--Rooney
Welbeck

Cos we have to rotate the team and there's a big trip ahead to Greece

Kerrydude1981

No

brinty wrote: »

Christ there has been some dross over the last few pages.....
Anyone looking forward to Saturday...
anyone think we might see the below attacking line up

Mata--Rooney--Kagawa (all interchanging)
--oh Robin Van Persie--

I hope this time away in Dubai might have refocused the whole team and we might see some improvements in the run in to the end of this season!!! We have 14 cup finals to play in at a minimum to the end of the season and need to start showing signs of something..

On the Kagawa thing...Our best result this season was beating Leverkusen 5-0 away from home, i wonder who played in the hole/no 10 role that night!!!

Would love to see that line up been given a try,but I doubt it,Young will probably start again,wonder will we see Fellaini returning to the side? He has to be fit now.

BloodBath

No

Mata can't and won't play that deep. Will be right wing as usual in a 4-4-2 that doesn't suit the fact that he's always looking to cut inside and play centrally.

Adnan is the closest thing we have to a top quality winger at the moment. Nani could be too if he could get his **** together when he comes back.

Nani, Adnan, Rooney, Mata and Kagawa would all easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 system playing more centrally.

The main problem with that is who do you put into the 2 DM positions. Carrick and Fellaini are both too slow to play together. They share the same weakness. You need 1 fast guy there with your tank.

Chelsea have Ramires for this.
City have Fernandinho.
Spurs have Paulinho.

It's a problem that can only be solved with a signing as Anderson never made this role his own and it doesn't look like Tom Cleverly is going to either. Fletch is only a temporary solution and not a very good one.

brinty

BloodBath wrote: »

Mata can't and won't play that deep. Will be right wing as usual in a 4-4-2 that doesn't suit the fact that he's always looking to cut inside and play centrally.

Adnan is the closest thing we have to a top quality winger at the moment. Nani could be too if he could get his **** together when he comes back.

Nani, Adnan, Rooney, Mata and Kagawa would all easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 system playing more centrally.

The main problem with that is who do you put into the 2 DM positions. Carrick and Fellaini are both too slow to play together. They share the same weakness. You need 1 fast guy there with your tank.

Chelsea have Ramires for this.
City have Fernandinho.
Spurs have Paulinho.

It's a problem that can only be solved with a signing as Anderson never made this role his own and it doesn't look like Tom Cleverly is going to either. Fletch is only a temporary solution and not a very good one.

Well said sir, nail on the head...
One signing could make that happen

Drool moment but we can all fantasise
Carrick

---

Kroos
Mata-Rooney-Kagawa

---

RVP

---

BloodBath

No

Kroos would be great, not sure if he's ideal for the role but definitely wouldn't say no.

We wouldn't be in this mess if we had held onto Pogba but that's flogging a dead horse.

bucketybuck

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

And its already been stated that the likes of Mata and Adnan haven't struggled playing with those players because they are good players.

It suits your argument so you keep talking about Mata as if he has come in and played well, but in my opinion Mata has indeed struggled to adapt to playing with these players. He has influenced the games he played every bit as little as Kagawa would have done had he been given the chance.

Its easy to point to 3 assists and proclaim him a success, but anybody who watched the games could see that he wasn't linking particularly well with the players around him. In fact the similarities to Kagawa were striking, intelligent passes that didn't work because nobody else was running, looking a little isolated either left or right, not very imposing physically.

We could easily have saved ourselves £36million and just played Kagawa these last three games, I say the performances and results would have been exactly the same if we had.

Peter Flynt

dfx- wrote: »

Munich have done that...and they have always done that, yet they have only won one Champions League in thirteen years. Munich hoover up all the best players in Germany all the time and are not as successful in the Champions League a lot more often than when they are successful.

They've won 2 in the last 13 years . . . In 2001 and 2013. Should have been 3 in 15 as they pissed all over United in 1999. We all saw them hit the bar twice when 1-0 up before Sheringham equalised. They've also been runner up in 2010 and 2012. Leverkusen were runner up in 2002.

There was indeed a period between around 2002-08 when German football was undergoing change and getting its act together regarding putting into place proper mandatory youth systems. The result is a huge demand for players who came from the Bundesliga - Reus, Gotze, Neuer, Schurrle, Kroos, etc. .

Once again, the readiness to believe in Bundesliga players and Germany players - for achieving one Champions League title meanwhile bottling three semifinals and a final in international games - knows no limits.

It's not that big a deal since Italy did it in 2006 before then, yet they actually won the competition...beating Germany at home in the semifinal too.

2006 is a long time ago though. . .8 years. The Italians were very much at their peak. Milan had won the CL final in 2003 at OT (was at that match) beating Juventus. They won it again in 2007........Since then Serie A has lost its 4th CL spot to the Bundesliga. Indeed Milan are on their way out of this seasons CL and it looks as if there will be no Italian team in the CL last 8.

There were 3 Italians teams n the last 8 of the 2005-06 CL. There have only been 1 in the last 4 seasons. In 2008-09 there were none.

Add in the corruption scandals, fixed matches, crumbling stadia (which haven't been developed since Italia 90), poor attendances. . . .and it's easy to see that the tide has turned against the Italians.

brinty

BloodBath wrote: »

Kroos would be great, not sure if he's ideal for the role but definitely wouldn't say no.

We wouldn't be in this mess if we had held onto Pogba but that's flogging a dead horse.

We'll be alright when Pogba resigns this summer!!!

Mitch Connor

No

That final in 99 was a lot more even than people credit imo, we came very close to scoring a few times earlier in the game. Also, Munich were lucky to be in the final imo - we should have beaten them both games in the group stage, we were the better side both times. they got a dirty offside goal in Munich and a schmiechel f-up helped them too.