Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

It suits your argument so you keep talking about Mata as if he has come in and played well, but in my opinion Mata has indeed struggled to adapt to playing with these players. He has influenced the games he played every bit as little as Kagawa would have done had he been given the chance.

Its easy to point to 3 assists and proclaim him a success, but anybody who watched the games could see that he wasn't linking particularly well with the players around him. In fact the similarities to Kagawa were striking, intelligent passes that didn't work because nobody else was running, looking a little isolated either left or right, not very imposing physically.

We could easily have saved ourselves £36million and just played Kagawa these last three games, I say the performances and results would have been exactly the same if we had.

I've talked about Mata and Januzaj, nice of you to leave that out. Has Januzaj struggled out wide?

I also said its too early to get a good comparison between Mata and Kagawa as the sample size of matches between the two is too low. Its low in Kagawa favor but even then Kagawa has 6 assists in 20+ games last season. Mata has 3 in 3 this season and he played very well in his first game and was unlucky not to have at least one more assists to his name.

The fact is Kagawa has struggled. He hasn't been a runaway success no matter how you dress it up and its down to the player. There is no reason he didn't have an amazing impact last season and no reason he hasn't nailed down a first team spot other than not being good enough.

Rooney will continue to start ahead of him because he can keep up with thee demands of the EPL and so far Kagawa can not.

The player has said himself in the summer and this season he needs to improve. Obviously he can see the different demands the EPL requires and the qualities his team mates have and how he needs to up his games.

BloodBath

No

brinty wrote: »

We'll be alright when Pogba resigns this summer!!!

Looking at 30-40m and big wages to tempt him away.

Giving him some play time, a 5 year contract and reasonable wages a couple of years ago would have cost us a fraction of that.

His poor treatment by the club will probably put him off us forever.

Peter Flynt

Mitch Connor wrote: »

That final in 99 was a lot more even than people credit imo, we came very close to scoring a few times earlier in the game. Also, Munich were lucky to be in the final imo - we should have beaten them both games in the group stage, we were the better side both times. they got a dirty offside goal in Munich and a schmiechel f-up helped them too.

To be honest I don't remember United creating any great goal scoring opportunities before Sheringham. . . There was a lot of huffing and puffing. Remember they even took off Matthaus just before the end.

United have predominantly had real problems in the CL against Bundesliga teams.

Dortmund knocked United out in 1997 [Semi-Final].
Bayern in 2001 [Quarter Final]
Leverkusen knocked Liverpool and United out in 2002 [Quarter/Semi Final]
Bayern in 2010 [Quarter Final]

kryogen

Your Airbag wrote: »

A sample size of one match means nothing. Teams can raise there games especially in finals.

Arsenal are dross according to you yet they Beat Bayern Munich at home last season when they were poorer then they are this season. Wigan beat Man City in an FA cup final. Man City beat Bayern this season.

Januzajs best position is no. 10 so he is constantly being played out of position.

Some of the points made by beno and you have got many facts wrong. I'm calling it a night.

No

His preferred position is number 10, he may be a very good number 10 in the future but he is not a number 10 right now, he isnt good enough or ready to play that role.

He has shown himself to be much better from wide this season. His best position has historically been from the right actually. I see nothing to suggest otherwise based on this season.

Kagawa has shown why his best position is behind the striker, he has shown why left wing is not really suited to him. Rooney has also shown that left wing is not suited to him, it doesnt automatically mean he cant cut the mustard in the league

If the style of football doesnt change I would wager we will be discussing why Juan Mata couldnt cut the mustard at United when he did so well at Chelsea in about a years time.

I doubt Silva would look particularly good in the system we employ yet he is a very good footballer. The style of play and system we are using does not allow for intricate passing and movement which is where players like him flourish. The personnel doesnt help most of the time but I am convinced if you actually put Mata, Kagawa, Rooney and RVP on the field together and just told them to do what they liked but to make sure they keep the ball on the deck they would be producing far greater results then we are seeing now.

Rooney is playing the number 10 role and basically never passes the ball to the striker, wtf is up with that like? We know he is a brilliant player, we know RVP is a brilliant player, so whats going wrong? The tactic of get the ball iwide every single time possibly?

Getting it wide and getting behind teams can be great, as a variable of attacking play, not as the stock attack, every time, no variety. The idea behind getting it wide wide and getting in behind the full backs is to catch them out, when they know its coming every single time they can be set up to negate it quite easily.

We have seen this plenty this season, it doesnt take a genius to understand that one dimensional attacking play is easy to defend. What bothers me most is that Moyes is clearly an intelligent man, he is clearly a good manager, it cant simply be down to stubbornness and pig headedness that he persists in it and continues to publicly say he thinks we are playing well and doing the right things

Consistently doing the right things tends to actually bring the opposite results to what we have suffered this season.

His use of Kagawa is just another example of poor management this season for me. Particularly given the only times we have played good football this season has been when Kagawa has moved central. It is possible he is ignoring the instruction of his manager by not getting the ball wide at every opportunity and this is why he finds himself frozen out.

He played well in his last appearance, affected the game in a positive manner and hasnt been seen since. Played very well in the game v Leverkusen, we thought surely Moyes will have seen how well the team played offensively that day and tried to keep to that kind of system for the future, did he? **** no Kagawa back out left, then out again. Even Jan got a start at number 10 ahead of him then with him being started out wide, and it wasnt any sort of recognition of how poor a decision this was tactically by Moyes that had him change this if you listen to his post match comments.

Kagawa is being wasted at United tbh, if he isnt going to be used in a way to get the best out of him I hope he is sold.

brinty

BloodBath wrote: »

Looking at 30-40m and big wages to tempt him away.

Giving him some play time, a 5 year contract and reasonable wages a couple of years ago would have cost us a fraction of that.

His poor treatment by the club will probably put him off us forever.

Was being sarcastic, we'll not get him back and PSG want him, he's French will get all the money he wants
Did read an interview a couple of weeks ago where he said he was a mancunian...
He strikes me as a misguided muppet being led by his agent who is greedy

BloodBath

No

He has shown himself to be much better from wide this season. His best position has historically been from the right actually. I see nothing to suggest otherwise based on this season.

He's better from the left. He's left footed and swings better crosses in from the left.

Peter Flynt

In some ways the situation with Kagawa is similar to Veron when he joined in 2001 from Lazio.

At the time Veron was rightly regarded as one of the best players in the world.

Yet he didn't have the best of times at OT and he wasn't exactly played out of position by Fergie.

Giruilla

brinty wrote: »

Well said sir, nail on the head...
One signing could make that happen

Drool moment but we can all fantasise
Carrick

---

Kroos
Mata-Rooney-Kagawa

---

RVP

---

But who would lash balls into the box from the byline in that formation?
That line up would be fantastic.. under Ferguson.

Kroos would be a phenomenal signing.. just can't see Bayern letting him go. Maybe a swap deal with Clev.. who does seem to think he'd slot into Guardiola's style of play nicely.

Your Airbag

kryogen wrote: »

Kagawa is being wasted at United tbh, if he isnt going to be used in a way to get the best out of him I hope he is sold.

Kagawa has been misused under two managers at UTD. Tell me why? If he is that good an no.10 why wasn't he played there from day one, and after being exceptional why wasn't he played there continually? but Kagawa was played there in his very first game, a game we lost. Its because he hasn't been good enough.

Kagawa has had many games where he wasn't making an impact and was a passenger. He has had games where he has show glimpses of what he can do but Kagawa hasn't imposed himself enough on games to warrant the number 10 role

The free pass Kagawa is getting here is laughable. So many of our poor players get called on it but Kagawa is a good player in a bad system. He was good player in a bad system under Fergie and Moyes? No, he has struggled to adapt to the EPL. The reason Kagawa hasn't been a success is Kagawa.

kryogen

BloodBath wrote: »

He's better from the left. He's left footed and swings better crosses in from the left.

I would have to disagree with you. He has done nothing this season from the left that is any better then what he has done on the right imo

He hasnt been brilliant from either side but he has been a damn sight better then when he played central and he has been better overall then our other wingers by simply being positive and trying to take people on when he gets the ball!

He has played from the right far, far more then he has from the left in his career and simply saying he is better from the left because he is left footed is a bit simplistic isnt it?

Ribery seems to be better on the left then the right and he is right footed, Robben the opposite. Ronaldo plays mainly from the left, Messi always played from the right, Di Maria the same

Being left or right footed predominantly doesnt mean you are definitely better suited to that wing

Peter Flynt

Your Airbag wrote: »

Kagawa has been misused under two managers at UTD. Tell me why? If he is that good an no.10 why wasn't he played there from day one, and after being exceptional why wasn't he played there continually? but Kagawa was played there in his very first game, a game we lost. Its because he hasn't been good enough.

Kagawa has had many games where he wasn't making an impact and was a passenger. He has had games where he has show glimpses of what he can do but Kagawa hasn't imposed himself enough on games to warrant the number 10 role

The free pass Kagawa is getting here is laughable. So many of our poor players get called on it but Kagawa is a good player in a bad system. He was good player in a bad system under Fergie and Moyes? No, he has struggled to adapt to the EPL. The reason Kagawa hasn't been a success is Kagawa.

Saying Kagawa hasn't been good enough is missing the point. Where are the underlining reasons for his apparent difference in performances for Dortmund and for United.

You think it's because the BL is a piss poor league. . . which is the ultimate get out clause as you cannot back that up.

I think it's because he played around better players at Dortmund under a far superior manager - Klopp v Moyes.

How exactly would you describe the performances of regulars like Cleverley, Young, Jones, Ferdinand. . this season?

They didn't play in the BL and they've all been poor.

BloodBath

No

If the rumors of RVP leaving in the summer are true then I'd sooner see the money put into another attacking midfield option keeping Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez as the 3 forward options.

Reus would be ideal.

Dream team for next year for me would be.

---

Rooney

---

---Kagawa-Mata-Reus----

---

Fellaini--Kroos

---

Shaw

---

Coleman

---

Jones-Hummels

---

Would cost the guts of the 100m thats supposed to be available + whatevers made by selling RVP, Anderson, Fletch, Nani and whoever else is out the door.

Giruilla

Your Airbag wrote: »

Kagawa has been misused under two managers at UTD. Tell me why? If he is that good an no.10 why wasn't he played there from day one, and after being exceptional why wasn't he played there continually?

Can you answer the question of why Valencia and Cleverly are played in their positions continually after piss poor performances?

To my eyes when Kagawa has played he's shown more than enough to warrant getting played continuously. He constantly links attacks and looks to create chances when he gets the ball. I've seen this every time he plays.
The only reason I can see of why he's not being played is that he doesn't fit into Moyes 'philosophy' of overlapping full backs and pushing the play to wide areas.

Peter Flynt

BloodBath wrote: »

If the rumors of RVP leaving in the summer are true then I'd sooner see the money put into another attacking midfield option keeping Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez as the 3 forward options.

Reus would be ideal.



Dream team for next year for me would be.

---

Rooney

---

---Kagawa-Mata-Reus----

---

Fellaini--Kroos

---

Shaw

---

Coleman

---

Jones-Hummels

---

Would cost the guts of the 100m thats supposed to be available + whatevers made by selling RVP, Anderson, Fletch, Nani and whoever else is out the door.

Bayern will offer Kroos a new deal.

Reus will not leave Dortmund - not even for Bayern.

Neither will touch United with a barge pole if they are not in the CL next season.

The time to go after these players were when they were playing for LEverkusen and Borussia Moenchengladbach a few seasons back. . .

It makes you wonder about the quality of United's scouting system.

kryogen

Your Airbag wrote: »

Kagawa has been misused under two managers at UTD. Tell me why? If he is that good an no.10 why wasn't he played there from day one, and after being exceptional why wasn't he played there continually? but Kagawa was played there in his very first game, a game we lost. Its because he hasn't been good enough.

Kagawa has had many games where he wasn't making an impact and was a passenger. He has had games where he has show glimpses of what he can do but Kagawa hasn't imposed himself enough on games to warrant the number 10 role

The free pass Kagawa is getting here is laughable. So many of our poor players get called on it but Kagawa is a good player in a bad system. He was good player in a bad system under Fergie and Moyes? No, he has struggled to adapt to the EPL. The reason Kagawa hasn't been a success is Kagawa.

I wont be repeating the same stuff that has been posted over and over again. You know the reasons for the questions you ask.

Kagawa has been criticised plenty for his performance also. I and many others have readily said he needs to do more to make himself undroppable despite being played out of position. It doesnt negate anything I have said already about him.

I know that you are too intelligent not to know the answers to the questions you are posing about Kagawa, I know you know he started well and got injured in his debut season, I know you understand the impact the signing of RVP had etc. I know this so I wont be going over them again, I also know that if you are going to ignore facts like the team playing its best football with Kagawa operating centrally to further your argument it is foolish to engage.

Let me simply say, we disagree, I dont claim he has been a runaway success, I dont claim he is not partly responsible for it. I dont think he has failed to adapt to the league. I dont think he is being used correctly. I think if he was being used properly it would benefit the team. I think that he is a player that would not look out of place in the Barcelona team, the Bayern team or the Madrid team. I think we are wasting one of the best attacking players in the world.

Thats it.

BloodBath

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Bayern will offer Kroos a new deal.

Reus will not leave Dortmund - not even for Bayern.

Neither will touch United with a barge pole if they are not in the CL next season.

The time to go after these players were when they were playing for LEverkusen and Borussia Moenchengladbach a few seasons back. . .

It makes you wonder about the quality of United's scouting system.

Well there must be some other up and coming players that most of us don't know about. I'm not a scout. If I was a scout I'd set up camp in Spain and Germany and poach away.

Who do you think would be viable alternatives that we could get?

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Saying Kagawa hasn't been good enough is missing the point. Where are the underlining reasons for his apparent difference in performances for Dortmund and for United.

You think it's because the BL is a piss poor league. . . which is the ultimate get out clause as you cannot back that up.

I think it's because he played around better players at Dortmund under a far superior manager - Klopp v Moyes.

How exactly would you describe the performances of regulars like Cleverley, Young, Jones, Ferdinand. . this season?

They didn't play in the BL and they've all been poor.

Again, your making my point for me.

Yes they are poor and didn't play in the BL. What point are you trying to make in regards the BL? My point was the EPL istougher than the BL which is why Kagawa is struggling. Pointing out that poor players in the EPL never played in the BL proves what? That didn't make any sense.

They are poor because they are in a tougher league that demands more and they can't supply, Just like Kagawa. Rio can't because of age and injury but could once.


Kagawa has done better than them but not been a runaway success, he has been ok but if you were expecting what he produced at BVB than he has been poor.

Kagawa came to UTD like many players have and was given the chance to show his worth amongst his teams mates in training. If he is not getting picked as a no10 its because there is a better option. He hasn't imposed himself.

Giruilla

kryogen wrote: »

I think we are wasting one of the best attacking players in the world.

I think the writing has been on the wall ever since Moyes came out with

They keep telling me how good he is

He's just not a 'Moyes' player. Which is frightening to think about when this guy is going to be in charge for the next 2 seasons at least. Could be a while before some nice football is played at United again.

Peter Flynt

BloodBath wrote: »

Well there must be some other up and coming players that most of us don't know about. I'm not a scout. If I was a scout I'd set up camp in Spain and Germany and poach away.

Who do you think would be viable alternatives that we could get?

Draxler (Schalke) and Gundogan (Dortmund) would be two I'd definitely consider.

Heck even Schmelzer at LB could do a decent job at OT.

An important summer coming up. If Moyes doesn't get it right . . . prepare to be out of the CL in the season after next as well.

Let's face it. . . Moyes hasn't got much right since he joined.

Will I Amnt

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It makes you wonder about the quality of United's scouting system.

What about every other club in the world that neither play for?
United's scouting system is shìte for not signing Kroos or Reus a few years ago?
You're spouting a fair amount of shìte in here but that tops the lot.

beno619

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

I've talked about Mata and Januzaj, nice of you to leave that out. Has Januzaj struggled out wide?

I also said its too early to get a good comparison between Mata and Kagawa as the sample size of matches between the two is too low. Its low in Kagawa favor but even then Kagawa has 6 assists in 20+ games last season. Mata has 3 in 3 this season and he played very well in his first game and was unlucky not to have at least one more assists to his name.

The fact is Kagawa has struggled. He hasn't been a runaway success no matter how you dress it up and its down to the player. There is no reason he didn't have an amazing impact last season and no reason he hasn't nailed down a first team spot other than not being good enough.

Rooney will continue to start ahead of him because he can keep up with thee demands of the EPL and so far Kagawa can not.

The player has said himself in the summer and this season he needs to improve. Obviously he can see the different demands the EPL requires and the qualities his team mates have and how he needs to up his games.

still ignoring that Janazaj is comfortable across the midfield while Kagawa clearly is not.

Still ignoring the possible 8 assists he could have this season if it wasnt for he team mates messing up. In the cross cross cross video if RVP was on the end of his crosses his stats would be much better regardless of his performances..

Peter Flynt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

What about every other club in the world that neither play for?
United's scouting system is shìte for not signing Kroos or Reus a few years ago?
You're spouting a fair amount of shìte in here but that tops the lot.

Yea. . . Well Dortmund and Bayern signed them. . and they contested last seasons CL final.

Who do United sign?

Fellaini for 28 million. Mata for 37 million will be a waste if tactics like what we saw v Fulham is the future.

We then place Rooney on a 15.6 million a year pay contract . . . After he has previously stated that he wants to leave.

This is not money being well spent.

Frankly - Moyes shouldn't be given another cent to spend if United don't make CL.

The money should be handed to someone who knows what they're doing.

Will I Amnt

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Yea. . . Well Dortmund and Bayern signed them. . and they contested last seasons CL final.

Who do United sign?

Fellaini for 28 million. Mata for 37 million will be a waste if tactics like what we saw v Fulham is the future.

Frankly - Moyes shouldn't be given another cent to spend if United don't make CL.

The money should be handed to someone who knows what they're doing.

Mata and Fellaini... 2 of the worst players to ever step foot on a pitch. Give me a break.

Your first point about BM and BVB is the most simplistic rubbish I've read on here in a while.

Your Airbag

kryogen wrote: »

I wont be repeating the same stuff that has been posted over and over again. You know the reasons for the questions you ask.

Kagawa has been criticised plenty for his performance also. I and many others have readily said he needs to do more to make himself undroppable despite being played out of position. It doesnt negate anything I have said already about him.

I know that you are too intelligent not to know the answers to the questions you are posing about Kagawa, I know you know he started well and got injured in his debut season, I know you understand the impact the signing of RVP had etc. I know this so I wont be going over them again, I also know that if you are going to ignore facts like the team playing its best football with Kagawa operating centrally to further your argument it is foolish to engage.

Let me simply say, we disagree, I dont claim he has been a runaway success, I dont claim he is not partly responsible for it. I dont think he has failed to adapt to the league. I dont think he is being used correctly. I think if he was being used properly it would benefit the team. I think that he is a player that would not look out of place in the Barcelona team, the Bayern team or the Madrid team. I think we are wasting one of the best attacking players in the world.

Thats it.

We do disagree. That we can agree on, that and the fact he looked good for BVB. I have stated I think the BL doesn't have the same demands as the EPL and Kagawa has struggled.

I was excited when we signed him and he has contributed somewhat but overall it hasn't been good enough.

Who knows, If Moyes gets the sack and we get a new manager and a new system something might happen for him. I can't see him getting selected over Rooney or Mata and if we buy wingers this summer it will be harder for Kagawa to get game time.

Peter Flynt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Mata and Fellaini... 2 of the worst players to ever step foot on a pitch. Give me a break.

Your first point about BM and BVB is the most simplistic rubbish I've read on here in a while.

Fellaini is not United standard. . . No way would Fergie have bought him. Not a chance.

There's 28 million wasted already.

As a consequence. . . Enjoy watching the Europa League next season

Will I Amnt

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

As a consequence. . . Enjoy watching the Europa League next season

Yes, it's all because we got Fellaini. Good lad...

Agueroooo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Mata and Fellaini... 2 of the worst players to ever step foot on a pitch. Give me a break.
.

In fairness he didn't say that (or I misses it in previous post) and his point is valid about talented players being wasted to useless tactics that dont play to their strengths.

but the point about blaming Utd scouts for missing out on the likes of Kroos is silly.

What not put blame on them then for every other top player playing for another team???

Peter Flynt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Yes, it's all because we got Fellaini. Good lad...

No - Moyes.

A manager who has won nothing in his career.

You seem to have no problem with 28 million wasted on a player like Felliani. . . Fair enough.

Your Airbag

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Fellaini is not United standard. . . No way would Fergie have bought him. Not a chance.

There's 28 million wasted already.

As a consequence. . . Enjoy watching the Europa League next season

So Fellaini who has had less chances then Kagawa and an injury is not UTD standard but Kagawa is and UTDs system is the problem plus Kag's injury didn't help.

Between this and some of the basic facts weird logic and failure to understand the point being made you have made some shockingly poor posts.

Lord TSC

No

I love Kagawa. When he plays, I really like what I see. And I feel he's come under a level of attack for some reason that isn't at all justified by his displays this year. I'd happily get a jersey with his name on the back if I wasn't scared of him leaving in the summer.

Whats frustrating for me is that looking at our attacking lineup, we'd be in a position where we could sell our wingers, and still have a top class attacking line up.

Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
Van Persie

And then you'd have Januzaj, Hernandez, Welbeck as backups. We could sell two of Nani, Young and Valencia, look to bring in a single younger backup for little cash, and still look well healthy up front. That would allow us to focus on central midfield and defence (which, sadly, now is nearly a bigger problem than midfield).

But in order to do that, we'd have to see a change of tactics which won't happen under Moyes. More likely he'll sell Kags and Van Persie, try and spend cash on attack options and ignore the catastrophe in the other two areas...

Will I Amnt

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

No - Moyes.

A manager who has won nothing in his career.

You seem to have no problem with 28 million wasted on a player like Felliani. . . Fair enough.

You seem to have a problem sticking to one point.

Peter Flynt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

You seem to have a problem sticking to one point.

Off you go somewhere else with your one liners . . . Troll.

Will I Amnt

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Off you go somewhere else with your one liners . . . Troll.

Lol.

Peter Flynt

Agueroooo wrote: »

In fairness he didn't say that (or I misses it in previous post) and his point is valid about talented players being wasted to useless tactics that dont play to their strengths.

but the point about blaming Utd scouts for missing out on the likes of Kroos is silly.

What not put blame on them then for every other top player playing for another team???

The point I'm making is that they suddenly find out at United about these players [Kroos, Reus, Lewandowski, Gotze etc. .] long after the teams that we should be competing against [the likes of Bayern/Dortmund] have signed them. It's too late then.

The debate about these players and who was going sign these players occurred long ago. . . and they're not going to be sold NOW to United.

So United head off into the transfer market buying the likes of Felliani, Young, . . .
Keane was right - United have been doing things by halves for the past number of years in terms of transfers

ericzeking

I say again....when Rooney and RVP play together we revert to full throttle traditional 4-4-2.

When RVP has been out we have had Rooney up front with Kagawa in behind or Welbeck up fron with Rooney behind playing as a no 10 midfielder, this is when we have played best this season, with a midfielder in the number 10 position. We have played Welbeck behind a few times too but I think that was in certain circumstances.

WRT Kagawa, he has been played on the left and yes he has been far from great but normally when he is on the left it has been to play both Rooney and RVP through the middle so Kagawa is not even playing as a wide forward or from the left, he is playing as a conventional left midfielder in a 4-4 focking 2, he can't do this role, the same way Ozil couldn't do it for Arsenal the other night.

Kagawa can be a great player for us if we get a mobile all action midfield two behind an attacking midfield number 10 with one up top. This will also bring out the best in Mata and Adnan in time.

So you either play one of RVP or Rooney...or you play both but explicitly tell Rooney to drop off and play that playmaker role and involve himself completely in the middle....or you play Rooney wide and Kagawa/Mata through the centre.

442 just won't work with the players we have and more specifically the central midfielders we have.

Agueroooo

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The point I'm making is that they suddenly find out at United about these players [Kroos, Reus, Lewandowski, Gotze etc. .] long after the teams that we should be competing against [the likes of Bayern/Dortmund] have signed them. It's too late then.

The debate about these players and who was going sign these players occurred long ago. . . and they're not going to be sold NOW to United.

So United head off into the transfer market buying the likes of Felliani, Young, . . .
Keane was right - United have been doing things by halves for the past number of years in terms of transfers

OK I see your point but you are trying to make it too black & white and as if Utd never look to buy a young talent, or take a punt on same.

Some clubs strike gold at a higher rate than others, and every club has their day, but its silly to go around blaming your club for not possesion someone's else's player, and make out like they aren't looking for the next Kroos etc

cause thats the way your post are coming across.

Giruilla

Again on the subject of Kagawa,

Most United fans would agree that the only games United have been somewhat impressive this season is the Champions League?

United were undefeated in 6 games with some tricky fixtures. Took 14 points from a possible 18. Even netting 5 against Bayer away.

Kagawa started every single fixture, playing 90 mins in 5 of the games, and 73 mins in the other - being substituted when United were already 3-1 up against Bayer.

Yet people here still think he's not 'good enough'?

Coincidentally Tom Cleverly didn't start a single one of those Champ League group games.


Edit: Sorry Kagawa didnt play at all in the Shaktar draw - Tom Cleverly did!

kryogen

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I love Kagawa. When he plays, I really like what I see. And I feel he's come under a level of attack for some reason that isn't at all justified by his displays this year. I'd happily get a jersey with his name on the back if I wasn't scared of him leaving in the summer.

Whats frustrating for me is that looking at our attacking lineup, we'd be in a position where we could sell our wingers, and still have a top class attacking line up.

Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
Van Persie

And then you'd have Januzaj, Hernandez, Welbeck as backups. We could sell two of Nani, Young and Valencia, look to bring in a single younger backup for little cash, and still look well healthy up front. That would allow us to focus on central midfield and defence (which, sadly, now is nearly a bigger problem than midfield).

But in order to do that, we'd have to see a change of tactics which won't happen under Moyes. More likely he'll sell Kags and Van Persie, try and spend cash on attack options and ignore the catastrophe in the other two areas...

I like the front four, I like it a lot. But for it to work you need to have very mobile and intelligent cm's and full backs.

Cantona's Collars

ericzeking wrote: »

I say again....when Rooney and RVP play together we revert to full throttle traditional 4-4-2.

When RVP has been out we have had Rooney up front with Kagawa in behind or Welbeck up fron with Rooney behind playing as a no 10 midfielder, this is when we have played best this season, with a midfielder in the number 10 position. We have played Welbeck behind a few times too but I think that was in certain circumstances.

WRT Kagawa, he has been played on the left and yes he has been far from great but normally when he is on the left it has been to play both Rooney and RVP through the middle so Kagawa is not even playing as a wide forward or from the left, he is playing as a conventional left midfielder in a 4-4 focking 2, he can't do this role, the same way Ozil couldn't do it for Arsenal the other night.

Kagawa can be a great player for us if we get a mobile all action midfield two behind an attacking midfield number 10 with one up top. This will also bring out the best in Mata and Adnan in time.

So you either play one of RVP or Rooney...or you play both but explicitly tell Rooney to drop off and play that playmaker role and involve himself completely in the middle....or you play Rooney wide and Kagawa/Mata through the centre.

442 just won't work with the players we have and more specifically the central midfielders we have.

This is our big problem,we have a midfield that simply isn't mobile,look at the other teams doing well in the league,mobility is the key.

Fishyfreak

A lot of focus on our attacking options in this thread. It's the defence that should be debated.

We've been nothing short of shocking defensively this season. Nobody (including Moyes) knows our best pairing at CB.

Vidic & Smalling
Vidic & Jones
Vidic & Evans
None of the above.....

Anyone?

DM_7

United midfield and tactics are ****e

Not Kagawa.

ericzeking

kryogen wrote: »

I like the front four, I like it a lot. But for it to work you need to have very mobile and intelligent cm's and full backs.

It's not even that, we could pull it off with what we have but I would wager if those names took the field it would line up more like this

Mata

---

Kagawa

---

RVP Rooney

With that big gaping space in the middle of the pitch between midfield and the strikers a space our midfielders aren't capable of using, we need someone sitting in (Rooney/Mata/Kagawa) there receiving the ball short and simple from Carrick/Cleverley/Jones/whoever and getting us playing.
We've seen Giggs play well in CM on occasion because he has the ability to use that space and pass the ball cutely and forward but he just doesn't have the engine to do all the other stuff we need a CM to do.

I've been a staunch Moyes defender but I really hope he has a grander plan for us than playing 442 letting the 2 star strikers do as they please and hoping that they pull us out of the fire more often than not.

bullvine

No

442 won us two champions leagues though..

Lord TSC

No

kryogen wrote: »

I like the front four, I like it a lot. But for it to work you need to have very mobile and intelligent cm's and full backs.

Agreed, but I don't think it would need as much investment as if we start trying to replace Van Persie and Kagawa as well. Playing with that formation, we could head into the next season with...

De Gea
Rafael - Evans - Smalling/Jones - New Left Back
Felaini/Carrick - New Midfielder
Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
RVP

We'd then only NEED two new players this summer, as opposed to the overhaul some people seem to think we need; a new left back to replace Evra, who can be chosen based on his ability to do the job needed with the change in tactics, and a new creative midfielder to sit behind and supply the 4 in front of him.

And suddenly, with the right scouting, we go from needing to spend over 100m to only needing to spend big on two new players, and then looking at some new, talented youths to fill out the squad.

Cantona's Collars

DM-ICE wrote: »

United midfield and tactics are ****e

Not Kagawa.

Our way of play,buy a guy who tore up the Bundesliga and continue to hit diagonal balls to non performing wingers time after time.Even a blind man can see it's not working yet week in week out we see it repeated.
We are going to finish 5th at best unless those above us go into complete meltdown so now is the time to try something different.
Pulis will have Palace set up like Stoke were under him so crossing will be food & drink to his defenders,what's the bets we'll keep doing it anyway?
Play narrow and move the ball through our creative players instead to pick holes in their defence.

beno619

No

Fishyfreak wrote: »

A lot of focus on our attacking options in this thread. It's the defence that should be debated.

We've been nothing short of shocking defensively this season. Nobody (including Moyes) knows our best pairing at CB.

Vidic & Smalling
Vidic & Jones
Vidic & Evans
None of the above.....

Anyone?

I think we are well stocked at CB, I would prefer we give Smalling,Jones and Evans a chance next season. Than spending big money on another CB.

The issue has been are appalling left back and the lack of protection offered by our centre midfielders. One LB and CM is sorted the defence will be a lot tighter IMO.

ericzeking

Fishyfreak wrote: »

A lot of focus on our attacking options in this thread. It's the defence that should be debated.

We've been nothing short of shocking defensively this season. Nobody (including Moyes) knows our best pairing at CB.

Vidic & Smalling
Vidic & Jones
Vidic & Evans
None of the above.....

Anyone?

For me and from what we have...Jones and Evans, let them off, give them the remainder of the season as a pair to form a proper partnership and be done with it.

Rio and Vidic are off and Smalling just won't cut it for me, good footballer but mentally suspect I think.

BloodBath

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Agreed, but I don't think it would need as much investment as if we start trying to replace Van Persie and Kagawa as well. Playing with that formation, we could head into the next season with...

De Gea
Rafael - Evans - Smalling/Jones - New Left Back
Felaini/Carrick - New Midfielder
Mata - Rooney - Kagawa
RVP

We'd then only NEED two new players this summer, as opposed to the overhaul some people seem to think we need; a new left back to replace Evra, who can be chosen based on his ability to do the job needed with the change in tactics, and a new creative midfielder to sit behind and supply the 4 in front of him.

And suddenly, with the right scouting, we go from needing to spend over 100m to only needing to spend big on two new players, and then looking at some new, talented youths to fill out the squad.

Not true. That leaves us with only 3 CB's and 1 RB. A couple of injuries there and we're ****ed.

We need to buy at least 1 top quality CB and 2 wide backs + 1 CM + another attacking option if RVP is going.

beno619

No

ericzeking wrote: »

For me and from what we have...Jones and Evans, let them off, give them the remainder of the season as a pair to form a proper partnership and be done with it.

Rio and Vidic are off and Smalling just won't cut it for me, good footballer but mentally suspect I think.

Smalling has been excellent beside Evans IMO, He would be ahead of Jones in Moyes's book I would think.

Mitch Connor

No

Given out season is basically done - I wouldn't be playing Rio or Vidic unless forced to by injuries. I'd be giving Evans, Smalling and Jones the game time and chances to show they should be part of the first choice United pairing next season (with Vidic gone and Rio likely to follow). They may not prove themselves enough, but worth giving them a chance now and having a better understanding of what is required in the summer as a result.