Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Mitch Connor

No

Dicky Pride wrote: »

I'm not sure why I'm having to explain this so much. I believe that Ferguson wanted to hire someone who fitted the mould of his protege...someone who at that moment was nowhere near the level need to become manager of man utd. He wouldn't have wanted the likes of Jose or a big personality like that.

This is my opinion, and on a forum of opinions, this one seems to upset a lot of people. I'm not wrong just because you believe I'm wrong.

Fine, it is your opinion, which is that Fergie chose someone he felt wasn't good enough for United at that time.

Fair enough, your opinion.

TheDoc

Your Airbag wrote: »

This is the dream lineup a lot of people want to see until the end of the season.

---

Carrick/Fletch---Fellaini

---

--Januzaj

---

Rooney

---

Mata

---

---

RVP

---

I'm not sure we will see this until Evra is replaced given his form. It would leave us massively exposed on the left. You need Young or even Val in there for cover on the other side given our wings backs form. Raf could do with some competition also imo. One side maybe but not both will be risked.

Not to say Januzaj doesn't work back but he is not physical enough yet to rely on.

While it goes without saying the importance of our fullbacks, a lot of reliance for that formation is having two REALLY intelligent CM's. that formation can work magic if they can snuff out the danger, before it happens.

Khadera and Schweinsteiger were breathtaking at it for two tournaments and also during two two qualifying campaigns. De Jong and Van Bommel were excellent at it aswell, and Strootman pretty much usurped Van Bommel from that role, with the addition of his ability to drive forward.

While on the attack the defense should be pushed right up, with the two CM's operating behind the front 4, and when it breaks down, one should be able to atleast face the threat and slow it down enough for the teamto regroup.
It's not fouling and getting yellow cards, or lunging tackles, its literally getting there to force the person sideways or backwards. gives enough time for the front three to collapse back in.

Fellaini can do that, Carrick can but I don't think he has the energy for it. Cleverly can do it ironically enough and so can Jones.

Our current CM's arn't bad at short range passing, albeit a bit sideways and non progressive. I'd happily have Cleverly in there alongside Fellaini in that formation, with the sole purpose of "You take the ball from Fellaini, and you move forward to give it to front 3".

I know Cleverly gets ALOT of stick, and he definitly hasn't panned out the way I hoped he would, but at the same time he has some obvious strengths I like. He is quick, he has a serious engine and he is a bit of a terrier. He hunts down the ball well. I think he has neat feet as well if I'm honest with his passing, regardless of it being sideways.
I think he is suffering an identity crisis that sometimes players have. There is no "Central midfielder" anymore. There is no great all rounders aymore. It's about pairing up strengths with strengths. Cleverly needs to remember what he is good at, but he also needs license to do it.

I believe he is a clever footballer that has neat feet. The goal he was involved with against City in the charity shield wasn't a fluke, that was a lightning fast interchange with Rooney. When I watch Cleverly I can literally see the confusion on his face over wether he should bomb forward with the ball, go backwards, if I lose the ball will we get broken against, am I leaving a hole here.

Be nice if a game came around where he was told to just forget about defending. As stupid as that sounds, looks to be the cause of his confusion and then inevitable lackluster performances.


I've probably lost all credibility (if I had any) for posting the above few paragraphs, but I sometimes feel it it's more of a sense of tactical overload with Cleverly, rather then him being a **** footballer. Which I don't subscribe to at all.

bassy

No

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

When is Fellani due back?

He's not going to be wristed back to early.

tallaghtmick

No

Am I the only one who thinks Fellaini was hindered by 2 injuries, his back and **** hand wrist? Hopefully he comes back from these and has a good end to season.

FatherTed

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

When is Fellani due back?

A few more weeks doc but he'll need some more bedding in after that

Mitch Connor

No

TheDoc wrote: »

I've probably lost all credibility (if I had any) for posting the above few paragraphs, but I sometimes feel it it's more of a sense of tactical overload with Cleverly, rather then him being a **** footballer. Which I don't subscribe to at all.

agree with most of the cleverley analysis - he is not a bad footballer - he is simply being asked to do more than he is capable of, and has been overpromoted and pressured as a result. If he was 4th choice CM and not almost first by default, he would be a better player for it. Arguably a 'proper' player would have jumped at being thrown to the lions as it were, and thrived on the game time, but it doesn't happen with all players. I don't think he has been given the room, or role, that would have allowed him to develop properly.

As for his sideways passing, I would also say it is a symptom of his tactical role rather than his own desire (or inadequecy). I actually think he has performed rather well this season, in the role he has been asked to perform. Tight, disciplined, conservative. Whether he is at all suited to that tactical role is the bigger issue.

Liam O

Doc is killing it today.

Your Airbag

TheDoc wrote: »

I know Cleverly gets ALOT of stick, and he definitly hasn't panned out the way I hoped he would, but at the same time he has some obvious strengths I like. He is quick, he has a serious engine and he is a bit of a terrier. He hunts down the ball well. I think he has neat feet as well if I'm honest with his passing, regardless of it being sideways.
I think he is suffering an identity crisis that sometimes players have. There is no "Central midfielder" anymore. There is no great all rounders aymore. It's about pairing up strengths with strengths. Cleverly needs to remember what he is good at, but he also needs license to do it.



I've probably lost all credibility (if I had any) for posting the above few paragraphs, but I sometimes feel it it's more of a sense of tactical overload with Cleverly, rather then him being a **** footballer. Which I don't subscribe to at all.

He does hunt the ball dwon well. His work rate is always very good but players turn him easily. Cleverly doesn't make runs past players with the ball. Tactically I don't think there is an excuse for him not being able or being too afraid to risk this and more forward passing.

I somewhat see the confusion in Cleverly you speak of but its Fear not confusion for me. He fears the risk taking because he doesn't have enough of those qualities. He doesnt act brave in the opposition half regarding runs and passes.

He works his socks off but his limitations are holding him back. Maybe in conjunction with tactics and having a poor mf around him he is suffering more but with top class talent around him, Bayern, Madrid etc I think he will still stand out and not in a good way.

When Clev first got in the first team I was as excited as anybody but he has simply not kicked on. He has regressed if anything.

Maximus Alexander

My impression of Cleverley has always been that there is a good footballer in there but he is sorely lacking in footballing intelligence. Doc's analysis sounds closer to the mark than that though, good stuff.

TheDoc

I've a lot of sympathy for him, there is a petition doing the rounds now to have him sold in the summer.

There was ALOT of promise and hope for Cleverly in here not so long ago, and while I aired a little caution, it was only because he hadn't established himself and was sitting a lot on the bench. I'm in no way saying that I'm right or any of that rubbish, but I felt this was make or break for him and Anderson.

Anderson is gone, that's been covered. Cleverly though, I can't help but feel there is something up. Be it his instructions, maybe a bit of pressure, might be intimidation.

Let's not forget this guy is like early 20's and is some how being painted as like a sole candidate and target for critiscm. This a young fella who has come up through the youths, has been at the club alongtime and has a lot of love for the club. And in a mere five months has turned into a hate figure for a lot of fans.

For a young man in his position, that takes both an emotional and mental toll aswell. Which no doubt will make him even more passive in games to try avoid critique, or try to try do more then he should in order to get praise. I imagine he has 101 flurries of things go through his mind before he does something, thinking of the potential backlash.

"Will the fans like this pass, will they moan about me playing something short, I might be able to make that 30 yard pass, but if it doesn't work I'll get booed, am I being sold in the summer, Toni Kroos is so much better then me"

You can imagine that going on in your head, when your trying to make split second decisions in a part of the pitch where being clairvoyant and calm is pretty much a base requirement.

Might need some Joe Hart treatment. Take him out of the firing line for a while, bring him back in during an easy fixture or when we are cruising to regain some confidence. Taking a lot on his shoulders for his age and experience to the premier league. Guy has not even three seasons under his belt.

Like fair is fair, we've pretty much expected him to be turn into some magical box to box creative midfielder, where the season before he was having light involvement, in some sense being used sparingly in order to gently break him into the squad and the role/demands of a Manchester United midfielder.

kstand

No

Dont understand any hatred of Cleverly from within the ranks - but he is and always was an average player. A fella that could come in now and again and do some sort of a job for you but certainly not a player you would be relying on in big games - compare his contribution and his potential with that of Paul Scholes. Top class clubs cant afford to be relying on players that are aveage and that unfortunately is what has been happening this season. Welbeck, Cleverly etc - nothing will ever be won while the club relys on players that are that mediocre.
I certainly dont hate them, they do a job but they are very limited in what they do.

bucketybuck

No

keane2097 wrote: »

The implication of saying that he doesn't need a bedding in period is that you've already decided he's a success obviously.

Please complete the following sentence please:

"He doesn't need a bedding in period because..."

Its strange that I need to repeat this already, but once again, not needing a bedding in period does not necessarily mean being a success. And the point was that you and others were vastly distorting the argument by labelling Matic as "ripping up the league" when nobody had claimed that. There is a place for hyperbole in discussion but you went beyond that and lost credibility.


As to your last statement.

"He does need a bedding in period because...he hasn't played well so there must be a reason"

"He doesn't need a bedding in period because... he has played ok so far, he clearly has settled in".

Hardly complicated.

Your Airbag

TheDoc wrote: »

I've a lot of sympathy for him, there is a petition doing the rounds now to have him sold in the summer.


Let's not forget this guy is like early 20's and is some how being painted as like a sole candidate and target for critiscm.

I've been one of his harshist critics but the scapegoating of him is too much. He is responsible for about 5% of what is wrong with UTD this season. The staff change, the lack of signings and the other poor players come into it, although they get a lot of stick too.

I have pointed him out many times during and after a match as poor but we had people blaming him individually for defeats.

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

There was ALOT of promise and hope for Cleverly in here not so long ago, and while I aired a little caution, it was only because he hadn't established himself and was sitting a lot on the bench. I'm in no way saying that I'm right or any of that rubbish, but I felt this was make or break for him and Anderson.

Was there though? Apart from Pro.F loudly proclaiming him as potentially a world class player I don't think anybody was ever getting too carried away by Tom Cleverley.

He came back from Wigan having had a solid season, but never at any point had he displayed that he was anything but a solid, competent player. He hadn't lightening pace, no rocket of a shot, no great number of assists, no mazy dribbles, no heavy tackling, he had no Unique Selling Point at all.

A few people may have hoped that he could develop from a solid player to a very good player a la Frank Lampard, but I think most saw him for what he always was, a squad player at best. I know my own posts from years ago will say just that.

Saucy McKetchup

No

Cleverleys best position on the pitch is in Wigans midfield*


*robbed from twitter

F.J.

@TheDoc don't want to qoute your Fellaini post as it is so long!

I agree with the majority of your post about Fellaini.I don't think that people expected him to be an advanced midfielder or playmaker of any sort.In the thread over the summer people were going mad at the thought of that!

The best I have seen him play this season was away to Real Sociedad in the second half where he broke up numerous attacks and just laid the ball into Kagawa.

His situation has not been helped being brought in so late in the window.

For anyone who reads Red Issue you would hope that the talks of Fellaini not being up too it is only talk.

keane2097

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its strange that I need to repeat this already, but once again, not needing a bedding in period does not necessarily mean being a success. And the point was that you and others were vastly distorting the argument by labelling Matic as "ripping up the league" when nobody had claimed that. There is a place for hyperbole in discussion but you went beyond that and lost credibility.

As to your last statement.

"He does need a bedding in period because...he hasn't played well so there must be a reason"

"He doesn't need a bedding in period because... he has played ok so far, he clearly has settled in".

Hardly complicated.

Oh dear I lost credibility, my stars.

The point is - clearly - saying that Matic doesn't need a bedding in period after one and a half games implies that you have made a judgement based on that sample size that he has successfully bedded in already, or is so good that he doesn't need to bed in in the first place.

I imagine similar statements were made about David Luiz after his first couple of performances for Chelsea which were class before he, you know, ended up actually needing a good long time to bed in before he was actually any good on a consistent basis.

I don't really understand why I'm even having this conversation. Someone here has used ten games to make a judgement about one player and contrast it to another player based on a game and a half. If you are willing to nod along as though that comparison is anything other than garbage that's your own look out.

Cantona's Collars

Cantona's Collars

Regarding Cleverley,I'm sorry but I just don't rate him.When he was just breaking into the team & at Wigan he looked like the next big thing.Sadly he's going backwards.Maybe another loan spell was needed but that ship has sailed.I can see him being sold in the Summer if we get new recruits.
Looking at Ramsey,he was in the same position at Arsenal but at least he showed flashes of what he could do before pushing on in his development,I can't see any signs of this in Cleverley.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was there though? Apart from Pro.F loudly proclaiming him as potentially a world class player I don't think anybody was ever getting too carried away by Tom Cleverley.

He came back from Wigan having had a solid season, but never at any point had he displayed that he was anything but a solid, competent player. He hadn't lightening pace, no rocket of a shot, no great number of assists, no mazy dribbles, no heavy tackling, he had no Unique Selling Point at all.

A few people may have hoped that he could develop from a solid player to a very good player a la Frank Lampard, but I think most saw him for what he always was, a squad player at best. I know my own posts from years ago will say just that.

Well I guess when I say expectations I don't even mean purely from fans. The british press did the inevitable "British Xavi" rubbish and least not forget he was nearly the first name on the team sheet for Hodgson for a good while there.

He came back from Wigan as you say having a solid season and it was cause for celebration to be fair, he was part of a decent possession based outfit and Martinez works really well with youngsters so he was getting good experience.

He came on in the Charity shield and had an instant impact with a truly wonderful bit of linkup play. I'd recommend youtubing it right now, and youll easily forget how good it was.

Then he seemed to form a pretty bitching partnership with Anderson in the middle where both were operating in harmless tandum,, although it wouldn't last with both having fitness issues and then Cleverly's inclusion started to marginalise.

Last season it looked like it was maybe a bit of control from Fergie with him, he had two lengthy injuries and maybe a case of managing his utilisation to avoid any further injuries to disrupt him.

Your Airbag

TheDoc wrote: »

. I imagine he has 101 flurries of things go through his mind before he does something, thinking of the potential backlash.

"Will the fans like this pass, will they moan about me playing something short, I might be able to make that 30 yard pass, but if it doesn't work I'll get booed, am I being sold in the summer, Toni Kroos is so much better then me"

You can imagine that going on in your head, when your trying to make split second decisions in a part of the pitch where being clairvoyant and calm is pretty much a base requirement.

On this part, what coaches at the top tier will tell you is that when you have a grouip of very fit and capable players what will seperate them is the pyhscological side of the game.

Being mentally strong and the ability to step up under pressure is as important as fitness and ability. You can be Messi all week long in training but unless you can do it on match day it becomes meaningless.

Stick from fans, even your own when results are not going your way is to be expected. Being able to turn it around in the next game when everyone is expecting you to be poor again is part and parcel.

Al Capwned

GSPfan wrote: »

Meh. Some of those guys just sit there and rip apart newbies or anyone with a different opinion.
The odd insightful post comes with a lot of nasty comments usually.

I agree with you there in fairness.
The attacking of new posters probably turned off a lot of those new fellas, but there are quite a few very knowledgeable and interesting posters who just don't seem to be as active any more.

The_Kew_Tour

No

I don't really have much sympathy for a man like Cleverley who is earning 70k a week.

he is at Manchester united not Mansfield.

They`re is a certain expectation on players like Cleverley and Welbeck abd they have not delivered as much as they should.

people can huff and puff all they like about their potential. Means FA to me as same have been saying this for past 3 years.

"oh Welbeck will come
good soon he get his finishing right someday"

oh really??? and will this be then? next week? next month? next season?

give me a break.

Kirby

zerks wrote: »

Will the Americans even know what a Europa league team is though? :P

TheDoc

Your Airbag wrote: »

On this part, what coaches at the top tier will tell you is that when you have a grouip of very fit and capable players what will seperate them is the pyhscological side of the game.

Being mentally strong and the ability to step up under pressure is as important as fitness and ability. You can be Messi all week long in training but unless you can do it on match day it becomes meaningless.

Stick from fans, even your own when results are not going your way is to be expected. Being able to turn it around in the next game when everyone is expecting you to be poor again is part and parcel.

Totally agree. And we have some shining examples at the club like Ronaldo and Beckham and Rooney to an extent that coaches and managers at Old Trafford can point to show struggling players how they can turn it around, by going out and proving them wrong.

Just wonder though is maybe it a bit of a shellshock. I'm sure he wonders why he is becoming the target man for large segments of fans and the likes. I **** you not, an actual petition resignating in a number of other MUFC forums, to have him sold in the summer. That's madness.

Look at his face when we score, his reaction when we win. he has real passion and desire for the club. While that isn't everything, it's something, when there is a real display of "not giving a ****" going on from some players.

While I'd question ability, mentaility, decision making etc...I 'd never be in doubt the lad would bust his bollox for the club.

Dicky Pride

No

I sometimes think the Man Utd Marketing machine are don't even watch any of the games. I know their job is inevitable but it's sometimes hard to swallow when you see one of their emails and tweets after we've lost for the 8th time in the league this season.

Your Airbag

TheDoc wrote: »

He came on in the Charity shield and had an instant impact with a truly wonderful bit of linkup play. I'd recommend youtubing it right now, and youll easily forget how good it was.

This gets mentioned a lot when it shouldn't imo. The game was a freindly, even if it wasn't we have that and about three games after it where Clev looked like a proper slalom run making pass and move midfeilder. Thats not enough.

Why hasn't he done it since?

It was mentioned earlier that Clev links the def to attack well and is tight, discplined and hard working. Then we have mention of his link up play against City, this happened in the centre and went to the edge of City's box before the goal.

So your rating of Clev depends on what your looking for from him. If you have now given up on the link up play we saw against City and are happy to see him recycle possesion to def or the wingers and sit deep and rarely make bold moves in the opposition half than I guess he is good enough for you.

I would say your standards are low and being content with him no longer getting forward and playing the safe game is not good enough. Decent but decent is not UTD standard.

J. Marston

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Totally agree. And we have some shining examples at the club like Ronaldo and Beckham and Rooney to an extent that coaches and managers at Old Trafford can point to show struggling players how they can turn it around, by going out and proving them wrong.

Just wonder though is maybe it a bit of a shellshock. I'm sure he wonders why he is becoming the target man for large segments of fans and the likes. I **** you not, an actual petition resignating in a number of other MUFC forums, to have him sold in the summer. That's madness.

Look at his face when we score, his reaction when we win. he has real passion and desire for the club. While that isn't everything, it's something, when there is a real display of "not giving a ****" going on from some players.

While I'd question ability, mentaility, decision making etc...I 'd never be in doubt the lad would bust his bollox for the club.

No it isn't. He's 24 and apparently his greatest asset is that he's very fond of United? Nope, doesn't do it for me.

Can't wait until he's gone. Selling him will/should be a signal to the rest of the squad that mediocrity and trying to coast by without doing anything wrong won't be tolerated.

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I don't really have much sympathy for a man like Cleverley who is earning 70k a week.

he is at Manchester united not Mansfield.

They`re is a certain expectation on players like Cleverley and Welbeck abd they have not delivered as much as they should.

people can huff and puff all they like about their potential. Means FA to me as same have been saying this for past 3 years.

"oh Welbeck will come
good soon he get his finishing right someday"

oh really??? and will this be then? next week? next month? next season?

give me a break.

Agree in the sense that there comes a line when you draw a line in the sand and someone is either good enough, or not good enough.

But I think there is a good argument there that we havn't seen Cleverly operating in the CM for an entire season, that hasn't been interrupted by injury. And this season is a bit mental all over to be honest.

I've been one of those that aired caution with him in the start in that he might not make the grade, I'm not sure if I can comfortably say "yeah sell him" and maybe not have an ounce of "**** he might be good in the long run".

A lot of mitigating circumstances but I'd agree whole heartedly with your general point, there comes a time when push comes to shove and you stop "having potential" to fullfill.

Personally I'm in the camp with say Wellbeck where I wouldn't be gutted if he was sold or left the club. While he has good linkup play and can operate in wide positions, its not GREAT linkup play or general play and he is not Great on the wings.

He's a striker, and strikers are measured in bread and butter by their goals and their finishing. Wellbeck has a very unfortunate deficiny in that he struggles to convert chances. Which I would agree totally in that playing for Manchester United, is not good enough. He squanders far too many chances.
I'd imagine the fact he is English and homegrown for the squad restrictions,is an England international and has conceived strong general play, will ensure he stays at the club for years to come.

But then I'm in that weird camp who find it hard to justify Chico. I'd be more then happy to see WEllbeck and Chico sold to be replaced with a heavy hitter, and operate a threeway rotation between RVP,Rooney and Striker X

Mikeyt086

No

Cleverley needs to have his role majorly reduced to have a positive impact on the team. Starting every week is clearly too much for him. The bench and starting Capital One Cup games and dead rubber CL group games should be where we see him. If he is happy with that then its worth having him around, much less pressure, much less spotlight. If he wants more then he will have to find it elsewhere. As for my stance on him, I don't hate him and I don't want him pushed out of the club because he might offer us something as he matures. I can't forget how Darren Fletcher and Michael Carrick were treated in such a similar fashion and grew into better players, so I have time for Clev so long as he isn't starting every game, because he has been brutal this season.

Fellaini is a victim of what I call the "Football Banter Page" epidemic. Blowing something out of proportion "for d LOLz", those pages hurt my brain. He isn't a bad player, he didn't become a bad player when he joined United, but he had a bad start, which I put down to being thrust into a team and system he was unfamiliar with. His United career hasn't even started yet, I am sure he will contribute at some stage.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I don't really have much sympathy for a man like Cleverley who is earning 70k a week.

he is at Manchester united not Mansfield.

They`re is a certain expectation on players like Cleverley and Welbeck abd they have not delivered as much as they should.

people can huff and puff all they like about their potential. Means FA to me as same have been saying this for past 3 years.

"oh Welbeck will come
good soon he get his finishing right someday"

oh really??? and will this be then? next week? next month? next season?

give me a break.

Welbeck's finishing HAS gotten a lot better this season. I bet his goal return per 90 min played up front this season is fairly good.

bassy

No

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

Cleverleys best position on the pitch is in Wigans midfield*


*robbed from twitter

Brilliant fooking brilliant and how true.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Blatter wrote: »

Welbeck's finishing HAS gotten a lot better this season. I bet his goal return per 90 min played up front this season is fairly good.

in all fairness now it could not have been any worse then last season.

he ain't getting tap on back for that .

magnumbud

Blatter wrote: »

Welbeck's finishing HAS gotten a lot better this season. I bet his goal return per 90 min played up front this season is fairly good.

better than last season but still not good enough to be playing first team for us

2moreMinutes

Blatter wrote: »

Welbeck's finishing HAS gotten a lot better this season. I bet his goal return per 90 min played up front this season is fairly good.

Just because he has scored more doesn't mean his finishing has gotten better. His finishing is embarrassing for someone claiming to be a top level striker.

Rayne Wooney

Blatter wrote: »

Welbeck's finishing HAS gotten a lot better this season. I bet his goal return per 90 min played up front this season is fairly good.

A goal every 179 minutes of football this season

The_Kew_Tour

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Agree in the sense that there comes a line when you draw a line in the sand and someone is either good enough, or not good enough.

But I think there is a good argument there that we havn't seen Cleverly operating in the CM for an entire season, that hasn't been interrupted by injury. And this season is a bit mental all over to be honest.

I've been one of those that aired caution with him in the start in that he might not make the grade, I'm not sure if I can comfortably say "yeah sell him" and maybe not have an ounce of "**** he might be good in the long run".

A lot of mitigating circumstances but I'd agree whole heartedly with your general point, there comes a time when push comes to shove and you stop "having potential" to fullfill.

Personally I'm in the camp with say Wellbeck where I wouldn't be gutted if he was sold or left the club. While he has good linkup play and can operate in wide positions, its not GREAT linkup play or general play and he is not Great on the wings.

He's a striker, and strikers are measured in bread and butter by their goals and their finishing. Wellbeck has a very unfortunate deficiny in that he struggles to convert chances. Which I would agree totally in that playing for Manchester United, is not good enough. He squanders far too many chances.
I'd imagine the fact he is English and homegrown for the squad restrictions,is an England international and has conceived strong general play, will ensure he stays at the club for years to come.

But then I'm in that weird camp who find it hard to justify Chico. I'd be more then happy to see WEllbeck and Chico sold to be replaced with a heavy hitter, and operate a threeway rotation between RVP,Rooney and Striker X

agree with last paragraph.

onto the hot topic. I want Welbeck and Cleverley to be a success. hell I hope I'm wrong on the 2 of them. I hope they prove me wrong.

But funny thing is we been having this debate for well over year now.

they have not improved. Welbeck banging in few extra goals might prove me wrong because it does not. he was dire last season. It could only get better.

but it has not gotten better the way some are making it out. nowhere near it

Blatter

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

A goal every 179 minutes of football this season

So a goal every 2 games. That's a pretty good ratio for a striker, even better considering he's played in a variety of positions. Welbeck is doing quite well this season in a dysfunctional team.

bucketybuck

No

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't really understand why I'm even having this conversation.

Because you misrepresented what another poster was saying and I called you on it.

TheDoc wrote: »

Well I guess when I say expectations I don't even mean purely from fans. The british press did the inevitable "British Xavi" rubbish and least not forget he was nearly the first name on the team sheet for Hodgson for a good while there.

...snip...

He came on in the Charity shield and had an instant impact with a truly wonderful bit of linkup play. I'd recommend youtubing it right now, and youll easily forget how good it was.

Then he seemed to form a pretty bitching partnership with Anderson in the middle where both were operating in harmless tandum,, although it wouldn't last with both having fitness issues and then Cleverly's inclusion started to marginalise.

But again, this is a little revisionist. I don't believe the media ever called him the new Xavi, and he was never even close to being the first name on Hodgons teamsheet, thats just not true at all.

And its become a bit of an urban myth that we had this fantastic period with Cleverley and Anderson linking well and operating in harmless tandum. They had a few good games, one in a glorified friendly and then against some ropey teams, nothing more than that.

TheDoc wrote: »

But I think there is a good argument there that we havn't seen Cleverly operating in the CM for an entire season, that hasn't been interrupted by injury. And this season is a bit mental all over to be honest.

I also see this completely differently. Its almost as if you are saying Cleverley hasn't got a proper chance in midfield? My god, the lad has gotten far more games there than he ever really deserved, certainly more than his performances have warranted.

Its actually the biggest disappointment for me. The dire state of our midfield has meant that a limited player like Cleverley has gotten more chances than he ever would have gotten in previous years. It was a golden chance for him to step up and make the spot his own and he couldn't do it. Even just solid games would have seen him first choice ahead of Jones or Giggs but he can't even keep them out of the team consistently for ****s sake.

Pro. F

No

magnumbud wrote: »

better than last season but still not good enough to be playing first team for us

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

in all fairness now it could not have been any worse then last season.

he ain't getting tap on back for that .

In the 13 games he has started he has scored 8 goals, and he hasn't even been playing up front for all those games. He has done excellently this year considering his age, the fact that he's not first choice and that the team as a whole are struggling.

Winston Payne

Danny Welbeck has twelve starts this season, and another five appearances as a substitute in the Premier League. He's scored eight and has one assist from that game time. For a third-choice striker that's well adequate. The vitriol he gets in here is mad. There's no comparison between his contribution this season and Cleverley. When he's played up front, he's gotten goals.

GSPfan

No

Al Capwned wrote: »

I agree with you there in fairness.
The attacking of new posters probably turned off a lot of those new fellas, but there are quite a few very knowledgeable and interesting posters who just don't seem to be as active any more.

They're probably banned. Ha.

Yeah there is a few names missing. They'll be back when we start winning. Glory Hunters wha!

TheDoc

Winston Payne wrote: »

Danny Welbeck has twelve starts this season, and another five appearances as a substitute in the Premier League. He's scored eight and has one assist from that game time. For a third-choice striker that's well adequate. The vitriol he gets in here is mad. There's no comparison between his contribution this season and Cleverley. When he's played up front, he's gotten goals.

The issue with Wellbeck is his finishing, he misses SO many chances, that a striker SHOULD be scoring.

No one has issue with his return thus far, the point being, that for someone who has had fair exposure to the premier league now, that in those games, he should have had about five more.

He has scored some nice goals, but the frustration is the ones he misses. Good few times this season he missed some sitters and guilt edge chances. I think that is where the issue lies, not with his ACTUAL return.

He is a Manchester United striker. A goal every two games is the absolute minimum requirement to be far : /

A more interesting stat and reflection would be his conversion rate, perhaps someone can dig that one up. Something to encompass his attempts on goal with actual goals returned. Because he appears when you watch him, someone that at times takes only a small percentage of his chances.

I can specifically remember Kew posting during match threads with various "How did he miss that?!?!" sort of posts. And I typically remember his more then others because he's not normally melodramatic.

We are not expecting him on levels of RVP, who to be far is something of a wonder when it comes to how many times to hits the target from chances, but when hes leading the line and getting his chance, I'd expect a little composure and class to finish his chances.

Your Airbag

If you want to look at Welbecks goals and take that stat only than I guess he has done well.

How many of those games did he earn us three points with match winning goals? How many chances has me missed? has he assisted? Whats his overall workrate like.

Again the UTD thread uses baseline stats to win a point.

Saying that I feel Welbeck has improved of late but is still hot and cold. His first touch at times is some of the worst I have seen of any player in the entire league.

Against Stoke it looked like he was trying to control a vibrating grantie ball. He has done this in many games this season. A player with more composure would have another 6 goals to that tally.

Ask youself how good a place is Welbeck improving from and then ask yourself if its really an achievement.

Pro. F

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its actually the biggest disappointment for me. The dire state of our midfield has meant that a limited player like Cleverley has gotten more chances than he ever would have gotten in previous years. It was a golden chance for him to step up and make the spot his own and he couldn't do it. Even just solid games would have seen him first choice ahead of Jones or Giggs but he can't even keep them out of the team consistently for ****s sake.

Not that it's important but Cleverley has consistently been ahead of Giggs and Jones for CM this season. His performances this season have also been, at the least, at the same level as any other CM at the club.

bullvine

No

George Best once remarked on his 50th Birthday, that he lost interest in playing at United when he looked around at the players coming through and realized they were average. I wonder does Rooney think the same..

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Not that it's important but Cleverley has consistently been ahead of Giggs and Jones for CM this season. His performances this season have also been, at the least, at the same level as any other CM at the club.

One is 40 yrs old and the other is a defender. Carrick, Fletch and Fellaini all hampered by injuries and not hitting top from.

If anything its a further indictment of Cleverly rather than a case for him.

The_Kew_Tour

No

people are still been blinded by stats.

the Norwich game he had a excellent 45 minutes you name it he was impressive.

but there was 1 moment that summed home up for me. a cross came in from right, Welbeck in the box not a sinner around him. he had so much time he could have done a dance and then take a shot.

he missed the ball completely.

stats won't show those type of failings.

stats won't show his penalty miss or is open goal misses.

bullvine

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

If you want to look at Welbecks goals and take that stat only than I guess he has done well.

How many of those games did he earn us three points with match winning goals? How many chances has me missed? has he assisted? Whats his overall workrate like.

Again the UTD thread uses baseline stats to win a point.

Saying that I feel Welbeck has improved of late but is still hot and cold. His first touch at times is some of the worst I have seen of any player in the entire league.

Against Stoke it looked like he was trying to control a vibrating grantie ball. He has done this in many games this season. A player with more composure would have another 6 goals to that tally.

Ask youself how good a place is Welbeck improving from and then ask yourself if its really an achievement.

Welbeck and Cleverley are not kids anymore, they should be far better than they are considering how long they have been playing. I fail to see how they'll improve to the standard they need to be United players.

Rayne Wooney

It looks like he has a decent record but every striker should be scoring the goals he has, it's the easy misses and fcuk ups he makes that you need to look at

It's a tolerate/hate relationship for me, I watch Welbeck or Cleverley and 75% of the time I want them sold after a game but then reason hits me and I realise that they are decent squad players who should never be near the starting XI unless it's a meaningless or easy game, we should have world class players ahead of them and TC23 and Welbz would do a job a few times a season.