Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Pro. F

No

TheDoc wrote: »

The issue with Wellbeck is his finishing, he misses SO many chances, that a striker SHOULD be scoring.

No one has issue with his return thus far, the point being, that for someone who has had fair exposure to the premier league now, that in those games, he should have had about five more.

He has scored some nice goals, but the frustration is the ones he misses. Good few times this season he missed some sitters and guilt edge chances. I think that is where the issue lies, not with his ACTUAL return.
p
He is a Manchester United striker. A goal every two games is the absolute minimum requirement to be far : /

No it is not. Rooney is under 1 in 2 return this season, and has been for the majority of his time at the club. And don't think that that means Rooney isn't a top level goal scorer, he has a better scoring ratio in his time at United than RvP or Drogba has/had in the PL.

All things considered Welbeck should not have had "about five more". He has been doing a very solid job this season.

TheDoc wrote: »

A more interesting stat and reflection would be his conversion rate, perhaps someone can dig that one up.

Third best in the Premier League.

bucketybuck

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Not that it's important but Cleverley has consistently been ahead of Giggs and Jones for CM this season. His performances this season have also been, at the least, at the same level as any other CM at the club.

Indeed he has. Like I said he has been given the opportunity.

And he has failed to take that opportunity. At this point, with the chances he has been given and with the alternatives being a 40 year old and a central defender he should have made himself first choice when available.

But if we were to play Madrid tomorrow you would not bet your house on Cleverley starting. You could easily see Giggs or Jones starting ahead of him and that says it all in my opinion.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

people are still been blinded by stats.

the Norwich game he had a excellent 45 minutes you name it he was impressive.

but there was 1 moment that summed home up for me. a cross came in from right, Welbeck in the box not a sinner around him. he had so much time he could have done a dance and then take a shot.

he missed the ball completely.

stats won't show those type of failings.

stats won't show his penalty miss or is open goal misses.

I don't think anybody has disputed that he has certain issues in his overall game. What is being said is his goalscoring record this season is very good when considering a) number of starts, b) minutes played, c) positions played and d) playing in a dysfunctional team.

I don't see how that can be argued. What else are you exactly looking for from our 3rd/4th choice, 23 year old striker?

Winston Payne

TheDoc wrote: »

The issue with Wellbeck is his finishing, he misses SO many chances, that a striker SHOULD be scoring.

Oh yeah? Does he? I don't think he's been that wasteful at all this season. Someone as profligate as he is shouldn't have had the return on the service that he does, no? This is a vague criticism. It "Feels" like he should be doing more, without evaluating what's actually happened.

TheDoc wrote: »

No one has issue with his return thus far, the point being, that for someone who has had fair exposure to the premier league now, that in those games, he should have had about five more.


He has scored some nice goals, but the frustration is the ones he misses. Good few times this season he missed some sitters and guilt edge chances. I think that is where the issue lies, not with his ACTUAL return.

What service was he provided with? In which games? What chances were spurned? The season's just over halfway gone so most games should be fresh in your mind. I'd like some examples.

TheDoc wrote: »

He is a Manchester United striker. A goal every two games is the absolute minimum requirement to be far : /

Facing criticism while performing to standard. I see.

TheDoc wrote: »

A more interesting stat and reflection would be his conversion rate, perhaps someone can dig that one up. Something to encompass his attempts on goal with actual goals returned. Because he appears when you watch him, someone that at times takes only a small percentage of his chances.

I can specifically remember Kew posting during match threads with various "How did he miss that?!?!" sort of posts. And I typically remember his more then others because he's not normally melodramatic.

I've nothing against Kew but he's the last person I'd look to for Welbeck evaluation to be honest. He's simplistic and harsh.

TheDoc wrote: »

We are not expecting him on levels of RVP, who to be far is something of a wonder when it comes to how many times to hits the target from chances, but when hes leading the line and getting his chance, I'd expect a little composure and class to finish his chances.

I think Welbeck has got another level or two in him. His goal return is already nearly at what it was in 11/12 when he played as a striker and I see no reason why he won't match it before the season's out.

Your Airbag wrote: »

If you want to look at Welbecks goals and take that stat only than I guess he has done well.

How many of those games did he earn us three points with match winning goals?

Opened the scoring against Swansea. Won the game against Villa. Opened the scoring against West Ham. Got the only goal at Norwich. Put the match back in the fire at home to Spurs. Got the second late on against Swansea. Few flabby goals there.

Your Airbag wrote: »

How many chances has me missed?

Few obvious ones are springing to mind. None that have cost us games at any rate. Much like TheDoc I'd like some examples from yourself. Go through our matches over the season and come back to me.

Your Airbag wrote: »

has he assisted?

Yes, once.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Whats his overall workrate like.

Good. He's one of the few players we have that can play a pressing game over a match.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Again the UTD thread uses baseline stats to win a point.

It was more to defend a player in the face of unreasoned criticism rather than proving any specific point.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Saying that I feel Welbeck has improved of late but is still hot and cold. His first touch at times is some of the worst I have seen of any player in the entire league.

His touch is more good than bad. His close control and shielding of the ball in the face of opposition pressure is good.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Against Stoke it looked like he was trying to control a vibrating grantie ball. He has done this in many games this season. A player with more composure would have another 6 goals to that tally.

I don't know what a grantie ball is. If you meant granite that doesn't make any more sense. I'd like specific examples of games where this lack of touch has been displayed in the league. That half-dozen goals figure is as arbitrary as it gets to be honest.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Ask youself how good a place is Welbeck improving from and then ask yourself if its really an achievement.

He's improving steadily and may yet develop into a first-team player for us. He was good in 11/12 over the course of the season and has returned to being effective in front of goal now that he's playing up front again.His statistics and performances this season are more than reasonable for a third-choice striker.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Blatter wrote: »

I don't see how that can be argued. What else are you exactly looking for from our 3rd/4th choice, 23 year old striker?

he been pretty much our 2nd choice striker this season.

secondly he has become from a player last season going to be a great player for United now into some poor last ditch striker.

that says a lot.

what do I want/expect?

consistency
to have 10 times better composure then he has. he was brought up striker after all.
to get more stuck in.
to be in better positions to receive shots. take chelsea as example of his horrendous ability to do simple thing that day .
to stop missing open goals.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

One is 40 yrs old and the other is a defender. Carrick, Fletch and Fellaini all hampered by injuries and not hitting top from.

If anything its a further indictment of Cleverly rather than a case for him.

Bucketybuck made a criticism of Cleverley that is untrue. He said that Cleverley hasn't been able to consistently keep Giggs and Jones out of the CM, that is wrong.

Cleverley consistently keeping Giggs and Jones out of the spot doesn't prove something good about him (as you have completely unnecessarily pointed out, one is old and the other is a defender), but his failure to do so could have indeed been used as a criticism of him.

Pro. F

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

Indeed he has. Like I said he has been given the opportunity.

Yes, so you were wrong when you said that Cleverley has not been able to consistently keep Jones and Giggs out of the CM.

bucketybuck wrote: »

And he has failed to take that opportunity. At this point, with the chances he has been given and with the alternatives being a 40 year old and a central defender he should have made himself first choice when available.

But if we were to play Madrid tomorrow you would not bet your house on Cleverley starting. You could easily see Giggs or Jones starting ahead of him and that says it all in my opinion.

The fact that you have a hunch that he might not start in a hypothetical football match says nothing.

magnumbud

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

people are still been blinded by stats.

the Norwich game he had a excellent 45 minutes you name it he was impressive.

but there was 1 moment that summed home up for me. a cross came in from right, Welbeck in the box not a sinner around him. he had so much time he could have done a dance and then take a shot.

he missed the ball completely.

stats won't show those type of failings.

stats won't show his penalty miss or is open goal misses.

chelsea game for me. think it was 3 or 4 time januzaj got the ball across between the keeper and two CBs playing as the main striker where was welbeck? standing at the penalty spot not busting his gut to put the keeper and cbs under pressure to have to deal with ball no hes standing at the penalty spot. near the end of the game hernandez gets down the line with the ball puts in a lovely ball and he was walking not running walking towards the box. hernandez has had a poor run this year but those are the kinda positions he and any top striker would be putting themselves. then there was the penalty miss against sunderland not even hitting the target is appalling for any striker. his overall control has him looking like a deer on ice he falls over and loses the ball so often. his decision making is that of a 18 yo not a 23 yo. shooting when he should pass, passing when he should shot. i'm not blaming him for this season in any way his goals have helped but overall he just doesnt look good enough and wouldnt get near the squad of the teams above us. as a local lad i hope he proves me wrong but at 23 i dont think that really is likely

Pro. F

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

he been pretty much our 2nd choice striker this season.

No he hasn't. This is just completely untrue.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

secondly he has become from a player last season going to be a great player for United now into some poor last ditch striker.

that says a lot.

Welbeck is better this season than he was last season. He is developing nicely. He is certainly not poor for a 3rd/4th choice striker.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

what do I want/expect?

consistency
to have 10 times better composure then he has. he was brought up striker after all.
to get more stuck in.
to be in better positions to receive shots. take chelsea as example of his horrendous ability to do simple thing that day .
to stop missing open goals.

The fact that you demand consistency from a 23 old squad player is laughable. Read some of Fergie's words on the nature of developing young players and you will see that he always says that consistency comes with age.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Third best in the Premier League.

Not going to get into stat bashing and that rubbish, but you linked the mail :rolleyes:

Wellbeck has a roughly 25% conversion rate, when you take he has scored 8 times for 35 attempts.

Weigh that up against the strikers for the top 5 teams, he is pretty low on the list. But I accept there is arguments there that others are playing more etc. etc.

For a laugh, check out Chelsea strikers

BloodBath

No

Welbeck is a decent squad player and shouldn't face the firing squad just yet imo. I'd rate him ahead of Hernandez as a CF. He holds the ball up better and does what you would expect from a CF. He might not be world class or first choice but he can get it done in easier games and still has the potential to break into the first team.

There is an argument to be made for letting him and Hernandez go and getting a single world class striker to replace them but how do you leave a player like that on the bench? If they are happy being squad players then they are perfectly adequate and as good as we'll get for that role.

Cleverly on the other hand i'm not so sure about even as a squad player. Especially for the money he is on. He could be let go with Nick Powell coming back into the team as a squad player.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Pro. F wrote: »

No he hasn't. This is just completely untrue.



Welbeck is better this season than he was last season. He is developing nicely. He is certainly not poor for a 3rd/4th choice striker.



The fact that you demand consistency from a 23 old squad player is laughable. Read some of Fergie's words on the nature of developing young players and you will see that he always says that consistency comes with age.

the debate that he is better this season then last as some sort of proof that he had developed is laughable.

he was ****ing cat last season. could not have been any worse.

he us ahead of Chico in Moyes pecking order so at very least 3rd choice and certainly got enough games there for 2nd.

Nalz

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

got enough games there for 2nd.

He's not second choice. Doesn't matter who's out (Unless its a long term injury) or how many games he gets, he's not second choice.

He has improved, not dramatically but there is improvement.

Chico has played woeful at times and seems to get a free pass a lot of the time.

IMO neither of them are good enough to be our first or second choice.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Bucketybuck made a criticism of Cleverley that is untrue. He said that Cleverley hasn't been able to consistently keep Giggs and Jones out of the CM, that is wrong.

Cleverley consistently keeping Giggs and Jones out of the spot doesn't prove something good about him (as you have completely unnecessarily pointed out, one is old and the other is a defender), but his failure to do so could have indeed been used as a criticism of him.

He sure did. I mentioned our entire midfield not just Giggs and Jones to avoid that argument.

Also I'm not sure why you called your point about Clev being ahead of them both point unimportant when replying to him?

There was nothing completely unnecessarily in what i pointed out. Maybe if I focused on the pair only it would have been.

Clev got less game time once Fletch came back, in a big game against Chelsea Jones was picked over Clev. The point you almost got when you said

his failure to do so could have indeed been used as a criticism of him

was that even when he is not keeping them out its not high praise given the circumstances of all of our mf players.

nicklauski

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Had a really good debate over the weekend with a friend of mine who is a big United fan, and a REALLY good football person who is intelligent to have discussions with.

We were obviously in the pits after the stoke defeat, in Germany at a stag with a predominantly Liverpool group which made matters worse, but a debate arose about Fellaini with the usual Liverpool lads giving stick about him being ****e, and my mate kinda nearly agreeing that ok he hasn't been up to par.

I weighed in on the discussion with my thoughts to just one guy at the side of the table and when I was finished the whole group were listening intently and pretty much had widespread agreement amongst the group.

I'll somewhat attempt to recreate that discussion now, but I'm at a disadvantage it being written, and not having 3 steins of sweet beer in me.

First off with Fellaini there needs to be clarification and understanding of what he is. His role. Where does Fellaini actually play.

Contrare to popular belief, Fellaini is not an advanced midfielder, box to box midfielder, or playmaker of any sort. Fellaini came to promise playing as a physical and intellegent defensive midfielder and he was signed to Everton for that reason.
People typically only "relate" to Fellaini, in his last 18 months at Everton. Why? Because he was scoring goals. Because he was creating goals. Because he was a giant belgian with massive hair absolutely battering premier league defences. But this is not Fellaini, this is not what he does.

Everton were in a poor situation where they were struggling with finding and settling ona good return goalscorer after flutters with Jelavic, Saha, Anichebe etc. The powers of the mighty reliable Tim Cahill were on the wane, and his exit was inevitable. In order to compensate Moyes deployed Fellaini in a role to be a stop gap. TO play as a no.10
I think it's a massive CREDIT to Fellaini as a player, and his intellegence as a football, that he was able to move from being a defensive midfielder to being a no.10. To go from attacking headers with the advantage of being on the run, to being able to then win headers with his back to goal, and hold up the ball and feed others.

Maroune Fellaini was bought for us, as a DM. I have simply no questions or reservations about that, and I think it will come to pass. This is a guy who is a CONSTANT in an outragously impressive Belgian national team, playing as a DM. He is big, he is powerful, he is suprisingly quick, and he is intellegent. People genuinelly don't remember his performances for Everton before he moved up the pitch. But he was impressive, and he still has room to improve.
For a massive man, he doesn't even stupidly overpower his opponent, he is usually already in the spot they are running to. I've seen it countless times in his starts for us. Knicking the ball, rolling it to another player, off they go. He doesn't launch bursting tackles, he's not stomping around the pitch. Unless your aware and nearly looking at it, a DM's importance and play can nearly pass you by during a game.

Fellaini has a number of problems at present which arn't going for him, but I've no doubt will be resolved.

I think the arrival of Mata should lift the pressure he was carrying as signing. People assumed we were getting the no.10 Everton Fellaini, when we signed the Defensive Minded Fellaini, which is what we needed. Fellaini I've no doubt was intended to be bought alongside another more flarey attack minded midfielder. Unfortunately that hasn't come to pass.

He finds himself along Carrick, Cleverly, Jones. none of which are creative, none of which will drive the play forward. Fellaini is not that guy, while he can and probably will at times, it's not his strength. The whole point of his existence and ability is that we can afford to have a more dyanmic midfielder beside him, that can maraud forward and not worry about leaving gaps behind, Fellaini will fill it.
At present we have a situation where our CM's are passive and don't carry the ball. It's short passing that goes nowhere until it eventually hits the wings. Fellaini is a neat passer of the ball, but he is not a GPS cannon that can ping balls all accross the pitch. And he never pretends to be. He wins the ball, he offloads the ball and lets others do that job.


I fully believe Fellaini will be a massive asset. I havn't been disappointed overly with him so far because I understand what his job is, and what he is there to do. He is not our creative flair, he is not going to score and assist. He is the steel and to be blunt bit of physical menace in the middle we've lacked for years.

It won't be until we have a proper dynamic CM in alongside him, that we will fully appreciate Fellaini. No doubt I could be SHOCKINGLY wrong in this next sentence, but if we sign a quality CM to partner him in the summer, we will quickly realise that with him playing a defensive minded role. the money we spent was really, well spent.

This it the best post I have seen in here in a long time! Fair play Doc.

bucketybuck

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes, so you were wrong when you said that Cleverley has not been able to consistently keep Jones and Giggs out of the CM.



The fact that you have a hunch that he might not start in a hypothetical football match says nothing.

We all know you have Tom Cleverley pyjamas and want to defend him at every opportunity but my point was perfectly clear.

Tom Cleverley has been given opportunities in the team that even some of his more talented teammates could only dream about, and he has spectacularly failed to take advantage of them.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Trilla wrote: »

He's not second choice. Doesn't matter who's out (Unless its a long term injury) or how many games he gets, he's not second choice.

He has improved, not dramatically but there is improvement.

Chico has played woeful at times and seems to get a free pass a lot of the time.

IMO neither of them are good enough to be our first or second choice.

I agree 100% on Chico he been dreadful.

yes worse then Welbeck.

Your Airbag

Winston Payne wrote: »

Opened the scoring against Swansea. Won the game against Villa. Opened the scoring against West Ham. Got the only goal at Norwich. Put the match back in the fire at home to Spurs. Got the second late on against Swansea. Few flabby goals there.
Few obvious ones are springing to mind. None that have cost us games at any rate. Much like TheDoc I'd like some examples from yourself. Go through our matches over the season and come back to me.
Yes, once.
Good. He's one of the few players we have that can play a pressing game over a match.


It was more to defend a player in the face of unreasoned criticism rather than proving any specific point.


His touch is more good than bad. His close control and shielding of the ball in the face of opposition pressure is good.


I don't know what a grantie ball is. If you meant granite that doesn't make any more sense. I'd like specific examples of games where this lack of touch has been displayed in the league. That half-dozen goals figure is as arbitrary as it gets to be honest.


He's improving steadily and may yet develop into a first-team player for us. He was good in 11/12 over the course of the season and has returned to being effective in front of goal now that he's playing up front again.His statistics and performances this season are more than reasonable for a third-choice striker.

Good reply. Like I said I think he has been better this season but in some games very poor.

At least you took the time to rebuff my post with facts. A few others could learn from you.

Regards the spelling, yes I meant granite, so sue me. It can be hard to post in work when the boss is drifting around, things get rushed such as proof reading

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

he been pretty much our 2nd choice striker this season.

secondly he has become from a player last season going to be a great player for United now into some poor last ditch striker.

that says a lot.

what do I want/expect?

consistency
to have 10 times better composure then he has. he was brought up striker after all.
to get more stuck in.
to be in better positions to receive shots. take chelsea as example of his horrendous ability to do simple thing that day .
to stop missing open goals.

We are not going to agree here.

I feel your expectations for our 3rd choice, 23 year old striker are far too high. You are basically saying that you expect him to be close to the finished product.

You should be just delighted that we have a player like him in the squad. Young, versatile, hard working, never complains and has a very good goalscoring record when played up front.

This complaining and nit picking of Welbeck is very reminiscent to how a lot of Chelsea fans treated Sturridge when he was a squad player there. A young player with clear talent but had some issues with the consistency of his all round play. He wasn't first choice and was used in different positions at different times. Sound familiar? Maybe if Chelsea fans and management had been more patient and realistic they wouldn't have made such a catastrophic mistake in selling him to Liverpool for a measly £12m.

Hopefully United don't make a similar mistake but I couldn't blame Welbeck if he wanted to move on for guaranteed first team football after seeing what's happened with Sturridge. Thankfully he seems content at United.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Blatter wrote: »

We are not going to agree here.

I feel your expectations for our 3rd choice, 23 year old striker are far too high. You are basically saying that you expect him to be close to the finished product.

You should be just delighted that we have a player like him in the squad. Young, versatile, hard working, never complains and has a very good goalscoring record when played up front.

This complaining and nit picking of Welbeck is very reminiscent to how a lot of Chelsea fans treated Sturridge when he was a squad player there. A young player with clear talent but had some issues with the consistency of his all round play. He wasn't first choice and was used in different positions at different times. Sound familiar? Maybe if Chelsea fans and management had been more patient and realistic they wouldn't have made such a catastrophic mistake in selling him to Liverpool for a measly £12m.

Hopefully United don't make a similar mistake but I couldn't blame Welbeck if he wanted to move on for guaranteed first team football after seeing what's happened with Sturridge. Thankfully he seems content at United.

my standard are not high. he been on the scene since 2008.

all I want is to see gradual improvement and decent improvement in key areas like any young lad with potential.

he has went slightly backwards as a footbballer the past 2 seasons.

some will point out his progress this season over last but he was poor last season so expecting improvement this season was expected.

his age is being branded out a lot too. 23 is young but it seems to be the new 18 in here.

F.J.

Welbeck has one of the better conversion rates as he has taken less shots than other strikers.When he is in and around the box he isn't greedy enough.And as magnumbud pointed out above he doesn't get in the best positions to get an attempt on goal. Using Squawka stats.

Welbeck 13 shots on target 13 off target in 17 appearances.
van Persie 15 shots on target 17 off target in 13 appearances.
Suarez 52 shots on target 35 off target in 19 appearances.
Sturridge 27 shots on target 22 off target in 16 appearances
Hazard 31 shots on target 12 off target in 24 appearances

van Persie and Sturridge who have less appearances than him have attempted more shots.Suarez has 52 shots on target which is double the amount Welbeck has attempted in total.

As for the weekend he was completely anonymous,. It was his worst performance in a long while and too much has is being made out of it. The only really bad miss he has had this season is against Everton when he should have scored with a header.

At the minute he is a good third choice striker to have.The more game time he gets up front not out on the wing or as second striker should allow him to kick on and develop a killer instinct which he still lacks.If he doesn't develop as we want he is a good asset to have for squad or in terms of getting money for him.

Your Airbag

This Welbeck being poor talk has come off the back of another Clev being poor discussion.

Let me just say its not the same situation. Welbeck is a much better player for UTD than Clev.

Welbeck falls into the Nani category in the sense that he can contribute a lot but still be infuriating. We have all seen that list of assists and goals from Nani that Pro F posts at times when he is called inconsistent.

It shows good from from Nani and there is no doubt he contributes a lot but its the stats beneath the stats yet again. Nani is called poor and inconsistent by a lot of posters and he can be. That many people can't be all seeing something thats not happening.

The Welbeck situation is similar in the sense that both he and Nani are in areas where they can make key contributions ie Goals & assists, the mother of all stat golden stars.

There is no doubting what Nani does when given a run but often I have seen him have a brutal 89 mins and 50 seconds only to make a turn and get a shot off and make a key contribution in a match where he has been shocking for the most part. Welbeck is similar. You can watch him chip the Swansea goalkeeper with great skill one game and the next games he is falling over the ball. They are both very gifted players who make poor decisions at times and should be thought of much higher with little question marks about their quality.

Pro. F

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

We all know you have Tom Cleverley pyjamas and want to defend him at every opportunity but my point was perfectly clear.

Tom Cleverley has been given opportunities in the team that even some of his more talented teammates could only dream about, and he has spectacularly failed to take advantage of them.

You said that Cleverley has not been able to consistently keep Giggs and Jones out of the CM. You were wrong.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

my standard are not high. he been on the scene since 2008.

all I want is to see gradual improvement and decent improvement in key areas like any young lad with potential.

he has went slightly backwards as a football in past 2 seasons.

some will point out his progress this season over last but he was poor last season so expecting improvement this season was expected.

his age is being branded out a lot too. 23 is young but it seems to be the new 18 in here.

He has improved a lot since 2008.

- Had a successful loan at Sunderland in 10/11 as a 19/20 year old.

- Improved further the next season as he became a regular for United up front. Was admittedly goal shy.

- Was a starter for England at Euro 2012 and performed well.

- His development was clearly stunted last season because of the RvP signing. Played the majority of his games in wide areas and very rarely got a run up front.

- This season is his most prolific to date, his goalscoring has clearly improved. No surprise given RvP has missed large chunks of the season and he has gotten a run up front. His goal per 90 min up front ratio is almost certainly one of the best in the league this season. I'm astonished you are not acknowledging this?


You are not giving even nearly enough weight to the the fact Welbeck is competing with RvP and Rooney when analysing his overall development curve.

Pro. F

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

his age is being branded out a lot too. 23 is young but it seems to be the new 18 in here.

23 is young enough that you should expect inconsistency, especially from a striker who is not first choice, has been moved around positions and is playing in a struggling team.

It is ridiculous that you won't admit that.

bucketybuck

No

Pro. F wrote: »

You said that Cleverley has not been able to consistently keep Giggs and Jones out of the CM. You were wrong.

No, I was not wrong.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

He sure did. I mentioned our entire midfield not just Giggs and Jones to avoid that argument.

Also I'm not sure why you called your point about Clev being ahead of them both point unimportant when replying to him?

There was nothing completely unnecessarily in what i pointed out. Maybe if I focused on the pair only it would have been.

I have already explained the reason and detail of my response to Bucketybuck for you. It was a very simple point and I explained it clearly. But you still are still talking nonsense about it so there is absolutely no point in explaining it to you again.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Clev got less game time once Fletch came back, in a big game against Chelsea Jones was picked over Clev. The point you almost got when you said was that even when he is not keeping them out its not high praise given the circumstances of all of our mf players.

Jones started a big game ahead of Cleverley recently, after Cleverley had played a lot of football in the previous month or two and clearly needed a rest. I wouldn't put too much weight in that. Jones also started the City game ahead of Cleverley (that didn't work out too well either) and the Arsenal game. Clev got the nod for the first Chelsea game, the first Shaktar game and the Liverpool game.

If Fletcher was fully fit it is certainly possible that he would be ahead of Cleverley in Moyes' thinking. I don't think it would significantly improve the team's performance. I also have my doubts that Fletcher will ever be fit enough to start games regularly.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Blatter wrote: »

- This season is his most prolific to date, his goalscoring has clearly improved. No surprise given RvP has missed large chunks of the season and he has gotten a run up front. His goal per 90 min up front ratio is almost certainly one of the best in the league this season. I'm astonished you are not acknowledging this?


You are not giving even nearly enough weight to the the fact Welbeck is competing with RvP and Rooney when analysing his overall development curve.

you honestly trying to tell me Welbeck has been one of the best strikers in the league this season?

the last paragraph I found interesting

Rooney has has had to shuffle with players like Saha RVN Ronaldo Tevez in past at 23 and much younger.

RVP had to mix it with certain Henry at Arsenal.

why should Welbeck be treated any different?

Lucas Hood

No

Any stats on how many chances Welbeck messes up by trying a stupid flick or by miss controlling the ball.

He does that far too often.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

I have already explained the reason and detail of my response to Bucketybuck for you. It was a very simple point and I explained it clearly. But you still are still talking nonsense about it so there is absolutely no point in explaining it to you again.

I explained I was replying to your point and not bucketybuck and why I mentioned the entire midfield to make it clear but you have chosen to ignore in favor of going around in circles over basic points.

You also never answered why you felt the need to call your point as you were making unimportant about Jones and Giggs not being kept out by Clev.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

I explained I was replying to your point and not bucketybuck and why I mentioned the entire midfield to make it clear but you have chosen to ignore in favor of going around in circles over basic points.

You also never answered why you felt the need to call your point as you were making unimportant about Jones and Giggs not being kept out by Clev.

I did. I explained it all to you. You are unable to understand.

Pro. F

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

you honestly trying to tell me Welbeck has been one of the best strikers in the league this season?

the last paragraph I found interesting

Rooney has has had to shuffle with players like Saha RVN Ronaldo Tevez in past at 23 and much younger.

RVP had to mix it with certain Henry at Arsenal.

why should Welbeck be treated any different?

Because not being as good as Rooney and RvP is not a problem.

Seriously, how could you not work that one out for yourself?

keane2097

No

Bucketybuck is struggling badly this evening.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Because not being as good as Rooney and RvP is not a problem.

Seriously, how could you not work that one out for yourself?

lol

ya what's your point?

that's not what I asked. read again

Pro. F

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

lol

ya what's your point?

that's not what I asked. read again

My point is that Welbeck should be treated differently because he is not as good as RvP or Rooney.

I read your post again, it still doesn't add up to a sensible criticism of a player.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

you honestly trying to tell me Welbeck has been one of the best strikers in the league this season?

the last paragraph I found interesting

Rooney has has had to shuffle with players like Saha RVN Ronaldo Tevez in past at 23 and much younger.

RVP had to mix it with certain Henry at Arsenal.

why should Welbeck be treated any different?

He hasn't played enough and nor has his all round game been consistent enough for him to be considered one of the best strikers in the league. I said he has one of the best goals per 90 mins up front ratios in the league, which clearly shows he is making progress and doesn't deserve the sheer amount of stick he gets from some fans.

As for your second point, what Pro F. said. It's ridiculous to judge all strikers to the standards of the likes of Rooney and RvP.

The_Kew_Tour

No

fair enough Batter and Pro F.

afraid I have said all I can say. ye mentioned some fair points but at same I think he gets away with bit too much.

I just want pick up one thing.

I never once have the expectation that Welbeck should be as good as Rooney or RVP.

that would be totally unfair.

but there is a expectation one which imo he fails to have done enough times even for his age.

just had mention that as I felt some were picking it up that I expect world class level which I never once said.

Lord TSC

No

Lads, Laudrup is free now :pac:

J. Marston

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Lads, Laudrup is free now :pac:

Couldn't be worse than Moyes anyway.

Plus, he's actually won something in football management.

The_Kew_Tour

No

can see him being national coach of Denmark in near future.

Dicky Pride

No

J. Marston

No

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Obviously our crappyness has led to that cover, but it's still cool. The fading of the trophies is a nice touch.

shadowcomplex

No

Laudrups sacking is a disgrace, I hope swansea get exactly what they deserve now. RELEGATION

Chagan

No

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Laudrups sacking is a disgrace, I hope swansea get exactly what they deserve now. RELEGATION

People said the same of Southampton when they sacked Adkins. Now his replacement is apparently good enough to manage us.

I'd imagine there is more to this sacking then on field results. There's been a sense that all was not well at the club for a while now.

Your Airbag

Fletcher added to the Champions league squad.

Red Crow

If Moyes doesn't abandon the 4-4-2 then I'm going to scream.

Mata and a 4-4-2 doesn't add up.

We should be playing a 4-5(2-3)-1:

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Jones Evra
Fellaini Carrick
Mata Rooney Januzaj
van Persie

I think that formation gets the most out of our midfield. I don't think we're going to get fourth but Moyes has to get something out of this season and if he can't make any improvement then he should walk because he obviously isn't up to the job.

I really want to see the following three things happen in the next 6 months:

1) Play Fellaini. Give him a good chance to play and see what he can do.
2) Improve the tactics of the side. We need to play much better and Moyes has to improve they way we are set up and the personnel of the team has to change.
3) Solidify a CB pairing out of Jones, Evans and Smalling or identify the best defender going forward.

bucketybuck

No

keane2097 wrote: »

Bucketybuck is struggling badly this evening.

What on earth does this even mean? Are you 12 years old? Do you think this is a discussion forum or a place to score childish internet points?

KombuchaMshroom

No

Dicky Pride wrote: »

I like the fact that Valencia is the one standing in the lose segment!

Pro. F

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

No, I was not wrong.

Starts in central midfield (from football-lineups.com):

Cleverley: 21
Jones: 12
Giggs: 10

And half of Jones' starts in CM have come playing beside Cleverley rather than in his place.

bucketybuck

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Starts in central midfield (from football-lineups.com):

Cleverley: 21
Jones: 12
Giggs: 10

And half of Jones' starts in CM have come playing beside Cleverley rather than in his place.

I would bet you actually don't even disagree with my point.

Answer me this. Our options are a defender and a 40 year old. Why is Cleverley not an ever present?

And don't even think about spouting off about injury or squad rotation. You think if a Roy Keane or Paul Scholes were there they would ever be "rested" in the manner Tom Cleverley has?

Face facts, we have zero depth in midfield so Cleverley gets his chance. He plays crap until eventually even Moyes gives in and takes him out of the team. But then Giggs is also crap and so a few games later Cleverley gets back in and the circle goes round again. Its been the same all season.

There is no way a solid professional gets dropped the way Cleverley does, not with the state of our midfield. Look at Carrick for example, not world class by any means yet he plays every game when fit because he has to. But Cleverley will get dropped for Jones or Giggs. Says it all.