Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

jonnyfingers

Gatling wrote: »

I see rvp is apparently blaming team mates for getting in his way by playing in his position according to an interview he gave to dutch media

Saw RVP have a few words with Wellbeck last night when he got in the way of a shot. Hardly deliberate though and these things happen.

If the interview is true then I think it's just another example of the frustration players are feeling, either because of their own performances or the style of football they've been asked to play.

brinty

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honest question...

Do you think he has lost the dressing room?

I don't think he had the dressing room to start with

Paulegend

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Don't you remember or were you even around when a Lee Martin goal probably saved Fergie's job back in 1990? And after 3.5 years in the job, he landed his first silverware. Moyes is only 8 months into the job so he has a fair bit to go yet.

big difference is when fergie took over he was a young up and coming manager with all the talent in the world. a european champion with a aberdeen and even more importantly (kinda similar to benitez with valencia) he ended the dominance of the big two in his domestic league. he wasnt just a random appointment. he was a manager very much in demand. he was wanted by liverpool who where the biggest club at the time.

Manchester united on the other hand had not won the league since the mid 60's. they had sacked their last 3 managers and where worried about being relegated for a second time in a decade.

compare that to last season. Manchester United are the if not one of biggest clubs in the world. last season they walked the league. won the title despite playing under par.

Manchester United appointing Alex Ferguson in the 80's is absolutely nothing like Manchester United appointing Moyes in 2013

Al Capwned

I've been willing to see the manager get time all along. And even though I'm opening myself up to severe ridicule on here by saying it, I still am. I'm nowhere near as convinced about it as I was a couple weeks ago, but I'm still there.

Why?
I suppose I'm willing to believe that Moyes can put his own team together, given time. And I know that the argument against that is that team / tactics may not be good enough. I want to believe that the team, performance and tactics v Palace (for example) is the basis for the future, and that our current best XI (all fit, and playing well) would take care of Olympiacos, unlike last night. And yes I do agree that the manager has to shoulder some of the blame for the poor result last evening.

Granted some of the tactic employed and some of the decisions made have been baffling to say the least, but I'm still prepared to carry on as is with Moyes in place. For now.

Awaits backlash.

In Moyes I Doubt maybe?

Lucas Hood

No

brinty wrote: »

I don't think he had the dressing room to start with

Same here.

LuckyCharms

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honest question...

Do you think he has lost the dressing room?

I don't think he ever had the Dressing Room tbf.

I am extremely surprised at how easy a ride Moyes has had from the media so far. This is starting to change over the past couple of weeks but still nothing compared to the scrutiny of what most other managers of any almost any premier club never mind the pressure nearly every top club in the major leagues.

I think he will last the season but i hope that it stops at that.

This manager clearly is good at working within his level and while he is a good manager, he does not possess the qualities required to manage a club chasing the EPL or UCL.

Every time i watch utd play this season, the following seems to be happening more and more frequently.

1. Dumbfounded by the starting eleven
2. No sort of cohesion within the team
3. Shocking usage of subs
4. Complete lack of a killer instinct
5. Lack of any sort of tactical endeavour - this whole go to the byline and whip it in is ludicrous considering the players we have (smacks of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole)

Overall, the players clearly have no faith in the manager, no interest in playing for him.

We all saw what happened to SAF when he announced his retirement the first time out. While these guys are richly rewarded professionals, motivation is a massive force for these players to keep up their level on a consistent basis, something Moyes does not provide for a myriad of reasons.

Paulegend

i wonder is there any chance United will be looking at Klopp and Pep in the summer? no point in getting rid of Moyes now but with Pep winning the league and maybe a champions league with Bayern he might be tempted to end his german experience early?? might be able to pursued the likes of Kross (after my talk yesterday this is probably set in the stone of the gods) cesc to move to united with him. would seriously change the quality of players willing to play for him and would give the dressing room a huge lift. imagine Pep walking in. im sure that RVP and even teh fans would get a resurrection of confidence right away

Lovely Bloke

No

Paulegend wrote: »

but with Pep winning the league and maybe a champions league with Bayern he might be tempted to end his german experience early??

what on earth are you smoking? Pep to leave an all-conquering Bayern for a United not even in the CL?

Good one.

Headshot

No

I had a dream that he was sacked, best dream ever

LuckyCharms

LuckyCharms wrote: »

I don't think he ever had the Dressing Room tbf.

I am extremely surprised at how easy a ride Moyes has had from the media so far. This is starting to change over the past couple of weeks but still nothing compared to the scrutiny of what most other managers of any almost any premier club never mind the pressure nearly every top club in the major leagues.

I think he will last the season but i hope that it stops at that.

This manager clearly is good at working within his level and while he is a good manager, he does not possess the qualities required to manage a club chasing the EPL or UCL.

Every time i watch utd play this season, the following seems to be happening more and more frequently.

1. Dumbfounded by the starting eleven
2. No sort of cohesion within the team
3. Shocking usage of subs
4. Complete lack of a killer instinct
5. Lack of any sort of tactical endeavour - this whole go to the byline and whip it in is ludicrous considering the players we have (smacks of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole)

Overall, the players clearly have no faith in the manager, no interest in playing for him.

We all saw what happened to SAF when he announced his retirement the first time out. While these guys are richly rewarded professionals, motivation is a massive force for these players to keep up their level on a consistent basis, something Moyes does not provide for a myriad of reasons.

He's defo starting to get some stick looking at some of the mornings papers, he needs to be 'hit hard' at his next press conferance and made to sweat.

bullvine

No

A year ago I wouldnt have taken Van Gaal but now I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Leftist

No

Al Capwned wrote: »

Why?
I suppose I'm willing to believe that Moyes can put his own team together, given time. And I know that the argument against that is that team / tactics may not be good enough. I want to believe that the team, performance and tactics v Palace (for example) is the basis for the future

Palace for example, what are the other examples?

We needed a penalty to open the scoring against palace and the second was a cracker. It's hardly as if we witnessed a rebirth for christ sakes.

Paulegend

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

what on earth are you smoking? Pep to leave an all-conquering Bayern for a United not even in the CL?

Good one.

well as some said yesterday money does talk. i think that is probably true more so with managers. if Pep was offered a 5 or 6 year deal and told he would be given a substantial transfer budget (which is allegedly going to be given this summer anyway) then im sure that would be a great challenge for any manager. to rebuild a United team.

ideally united would have europa next season. that would be another gateway to qualifying the following season. it would be hassle of playing crap teams half way accross europe at times but at least it would be a season where Pep could gel his new team and get his new players up to scratch for the following season. or maybe with no europe Pep could pursued top players to go to united and he could do what liverpool are doing this season and take advantage of the no european game and he could possibly challenge for the title

united arent as bad as moyes is making them

Fishyfreak

Paulegend wrote: »

might be able to pursued the likes of Kross

In the words of Samuel L:

"SAY WHAT KROSS AGAIN, I DARE YOU, I DOUBLE DARE YOU,MOTH********, ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME"

beno619

No

Gatling wrote: »

I see rvp is apparently blaming team mates for getting in his way by playing in his position according to an interview he gave to dutch media

I saw it as him blaming the manager for puttin other players in his areas. Also he hints that Moyes doesn't let hims get involved in the build up.

super_furry

No

I just can't see any way Moyes goes before the end of the season. If he was sacked before the end of the season, what would the options be? The obvious call would be for Ferguson to come back on a temporary basis but that just makes the job of whoever comes in next harder. They're again succeeding United's best manager and if he manages to turn things around there'll be huge calls for him to stay. A temporary promotion from within would seem unlikely because all of the backroom staff are Moyes' men, so you'd be left with the option of giving the job to someone like Giggs or Scholes until the end of the season.

Delboy5

What utter sh1te again last night......

Didnt bother looking at this thread or twitter last night after the match, just went to bed early digusted with another abject display.....

I've been one of the people that was willing to give Moyes time, possibly till this time next year but slowly but surely my position is changing.......ive had enough, poor tactics and underperforming players, something has to change!

Alot of those guys on the pitch last night played within themselves, was this on purpose, have they decided "this manager is not for us"!

Like some have already said, United DO sack managers, we have done it before and i think its time to do it again. This Job is too big for the chosen one......

beno619

No

Al Capwned wrote: »

I've been willing to see the manager get time all along. And even though I'm opening myself up to severe ridicule on here by saying it, I still am. I'm nowhere near as convinced about it as I was a couple weeks ago, but I'm still there.

Why?
I suppose I'm willing to believe that Moyes can put his own team together, given time. And I know that the argument against that is that team / tactics may not be good enough. I want to believe that the team, performance and tactics v Palace (for example) is the basis for the future, and that our current best XI (all fit, and playing well) would take care of Olympiacos, unlike last night. And yes I do agree that the manager has to shoulder some of the blame for the poor result last evening.

Granted some of the tactic employed and some of the decisions made have been baffling to say the least, but I'm still prepared to carry on as is with Moyes in place. For now.

Awaits backlash.

In Moyes I Doubt maybe?

Why should players who have delivered us success over the years get the chop, while the man clearly out of his depth is given time and money ?

Its All Wright

We have 10 or 11 games left and nothing left to play for. We could sack Moyes now & start building for next season but that wont happen. We are lumbered with him for now. What we need to do is start working towards next season and that means ditching Cleverley, Rio, Valencia & Young. They should not play for the club again. Let's use the last 10/11 games and play the same group of players in every game, no more rotating and giving poor players like Cleverley etc opportunities. We are in a crisis and Moyes is fighting to save his job now. How much does he want it

Lovely Bloke

No

beno619 wrote: »

I saw it as him blaming the manager for puttin other players in his areas. Also he hints that Moyes doesn't let hims get involved in the build up.

If Moyes DID let him get involved in the build up then there'd be no-one playing as a #9 at all. Rooney comes deep as it is, Welbeck does too, RVP is being played as the "out-ant-out striker" he has no business getting involved in the build-up, he should be on the end of it - otherwise nobody else will be.

Christ, I had to take a striker off myself in a recent game because he kept dropping in too deep, and was then unable to get on the end of through balls, through balls that were being played because other players were expecting him to be on the end of them, instead they just loook like aimless passes to nobody, and the uninformed start to think that the person passing the ball is the problem.

Professional football is played at such a pace that many players trust their team-mates to be in their proper position that they just play these passes into the areas they expect other players to be, often without looking. That's because the very elite strikers are good at being in the right place at the right time. What is not expected is for the #9 to drop deep, leaving nobody at all in the spaces where players like Rooney, Welbeck, Mata, Carrick, Cleverly are going to be playing passes to. If he's not there it forces those players to turn, take another touch and find a different outlet.

I absolutely hope Moyes is telling RVP not to be involved in the build up. It's not his job.

Liam O

beno619 wrote: »

Why should players who have delivered us success over the years get the chop, while the man clearly out of his depth is given time and money ?

Because a lot of them are past it. Were Fellaini and Mata not good signings? More of those type of signings in Summer and we're laughing.

wonderfullife

No

I feel a bit sorry for Rio.

Having watched the game back, he was really sold down the river by the chaos in front of him.

He was like a big slow-turning elephant on the ball. Needing too many touches.

But that's almost wholly down to what was happening in front of him.

He may have lost his legs but he hasn't forgotten how to pass the ball.

Every time he looked up it was carnage. His outlets were mostly Cleverly and Young. Every time he gave them the ball, they lost it within 20 seconds and he was busy running backwards again.

He didn't really have the option to go longer either. Rooney, at times, was playing like a centre-back. Never in my life have i seen a player secure £300,000 a week and play with such indiscipline.

Wanting to get on the ball is admirable. It shows some personal responsibility. However, running back as far as your centre-backs to get on the ball shows the complete opposite. At times he picked it up in Carricks position and tried 60 yard balls to RVP who was marked 3-on-1!!!

What worries me is that David Moyes is not blind. He can see this as clearly as the rest of us. He should be out on that touchline barking his head off at Rooney to stay high up the pitch and not let frustration get the better off him.

It's a small saving grace that Olympiakos were head and shoulders above United last night - Uniteds players didn't get near their players all night, and thankfully for Rooney he could never get close enough to do something stupid. The red mist was coming down and he's only ever one petulant kick away for a 3-game ban.

When that's a small saving grace it highlights how bad the performance was.

Also, anybody slating Roy Keane is entitled to their view. But you could see on his face that Manchester United still means an awful lot to me. Whatever your opinion on him as a man, he gave his heart and soul for the club. For one of the best United midfielders of all time to watch a performance like that must have hurt big time.

No spirit. No commitment. No passion. No 'honesty of effort'.

All the basic things that Keano and Giles preach as pure basics of football.

We all like to have a cheeky dig at Keano (at times) and the RTE Panel but they are dead right. Starting point is always giving it 100%. Not one of them gave it 100%. 81 mins to get a shot away at the goal is embarrassing.

Leftist

No

I suppose there's no real choice between now and the end of the season. Infact an interim manager could lift the squad enough to qualify for the Europe league and surely nobody wants that.

But alternatively, united are happiest when we don't play. A world cup and summer off and moyes position will become further entrenched.

I just want him out asap so I can rest assured he will not be at the club next season.

Its All Wright

Liam O wrote: »

Because a lot of them are past it. Were Fellaini and Mata not good signings? More of those type of signings in Summer and we're laughing.

You can build a luxury jet but if you dont have the pilot to fly it then you aren't going to take off.

I wish Moyes would take off

Lord TSC

No

So didn't get to see the game. Was checking the boards and keeping track of what people were saying on here, but can't really comment on player preformances.

I will say the negativity started an hour before the game when the team-sheets were announced, and while I am not giving players an out, it summed it up when fans and non-fans alike were able to predict an hour before the game that it was going to be a long night. The team screamed out cowardice to me, showing a desire to "not lose" as opposed to "win". People can blame the players all they want, but when they can play as bad as they do and still get picked game after game, then that is a managerial problem.

Ultimately, Moyes' job is to choose a team, motivate them and get results. As the leader of the team, he has to take the criticism and will take the fall when things don't go right. Worse, I and others were giving out about results at Xmas....and amazingly they've gotten worse. I was complaining he'd backed the team off a cliff at Xmas, thinking it couldn't get worse....and low and behold, it has.

As I see it, if I can use a metaphor, you've got a set of paints and two artists; Fergie took the paints and created the Mona Lisa. Moyes is using his fingers and painting crude stick men. You can blame the paint all you want, but the fact remains that the man using the paints isn't even coming close to replicating the work of art. And yet there seems to be a group of (ever-dwinlding) fans who want to throw out the paints rather than replace the artist.

Yes, there are players who need to go and be replaced. Yes, some are underpreforming. But it doesn't change the fact that Moyes is failing spectacularly at his job.

Paulegend

Leftist wrote: »

I suppose there's no real choice between now and the end of the season. Infact an interim manager could lift the squad enough to qualify for the Europe league and surely nobody wants that.

But alternatively, united are happiest when we don't play. A world cup and summer off and moyes position will become further entrenched.

I just want him out asap so I can rest assured he will not be at the club next season.

winning the EL next year is autoamtic qualification for the champions league group stage. meaning EL win will cement a group stage CL even if ye just finish 4th next season

Zymurgist

No

Do people here think Rooney is disrupting the team at all?


It's like he tries to be everywhere, picking up balls from outside the D, out on the wing hassling people for the ball, basically being everywhere except where a striker should be and thus leaves RVP isolated and United a man short and the formation shot to pieces when they do break, because its him starting the move outside his own box rather than one of the midfielders.

You could argue that neither carrick or cleverly are very good at forward passes and staring moves, but even so surely by rooney adopting this role it is causing more harm than good in the scheme of things as the team is short a player and so can't capitalise as best they could.

keeponhurling

No

I agree^

Felt sorry for the entire back four, given the lack of protection.

When you mention players not giving 100%, not sure Vidic should be included in that, thought he was excellent

As someone mentioned already, a goal conceded from a shot from edge of box in space is becoming a very typical United goal conceded

beno619

No

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

If Moyes DID let him get involved in the build up then there'd be no-one playing as a #9 at all. Rooney comes deep as it is, Welbeck does too, RVP is being played as the "out-ant-out striker" he has no business getting involved in the build-up, he should be on the end of it - otherwise nobody else will be.

Christ, I had to take a striker off myself in a recent game because he kept dropping in too deep, and was then unable to get on the end of through balls, through balls that were being played because other players were expecting him to be on the end of them, instead they just loook like aimless passes to nobody, and the uninformed start to think that the person passing the ball is the problem.

Professional football is played at such a pace that many players trust their team-mates to be in their proper position that they just play these passes into the areas they expect other players to be, often without looking. That's because the very elite strikers are good at being in the right place at the right time. What is not expected is for the #9 to drop deep, leaving nobody at all in the spaces where players like Rooney, Welbeck, Mata, Carrick, Cleverly are going to be playing passes to. If he's not there it forces those players to turn, take another touch and find a different outlet.

I absolutely hope Moyes is telling RVP not to be involved in the build up. It's not his job.

Last season or at least the first half of last season RVP and Rooney regularly took turns one dropping to receive and one going forward. This made it much more difficult for defenders and they linked up way more effectively than they have this season.

RVP is a fantastic footballer not fooking Peter Crouch of course he should be involved in play when there are other forwards on the pitch again look at how he operated with Rooney last season.

beno619

No

Liam O wrote: »

Because a lot of them are past it. Were Fellaini and Mata not good signings? More of those type of signings in Summer and we're laughing.

Val and Cleverley have regressed ridiculously under Moyes. Hernandez ruined. Nano ? Ando didn't get a chance, Fabio and no cother brought in. Evra clearly isn't up to playing 50 games.

Rio came in against Arsenal and did well but everyone know he can't be playing consecutive games,which he did earlier in the season.

Constant chopping and changing, awful tactics.

How can anyone perform under moyes ?

Why would you bring up Fellaini when the argument is about players people are saying arnt good enough yet won the title at a canter last season.

keeponhurling

No

Not much point Rooney waiting up top for a ball that was never going to come.

Midfield was non-existent, at least he was trying to do something. He at least looking interested.

Just saw Moyes' interview, the good news is that there is a second leg!!
Wonderful!

Its All Wright

keeponhurling wrote: »

Not much point Rooney waiting up top for a ball that was never going to come.

Midfield was non-existent, at least he was trying to do something. He at least looking interested.

Just saw Moyes' interview, the good news is that there is a second leg!!
Wonderful!

Said the same about the Carling Cup after losing to Sunderland, hes making a laughing stock of himself and the club

Bandana boy

Ye just need to keep the faith

wonderfullife

No

Liam O wrote: »

Because a lot of them are past it. Were Fellaini and Mata not good signings? More of those type of signings in Summer and we're laughing.

£60m spent tremendously well.

First of them sat on the bench because he's been piss poor all year.

Second of them cuptied.

2 transfer windows and that's the best Moyes can come up with.

Its All Wright

Bandana boy wrote: »

Ye just need to keep the faith

Fergie didnt inherit a team with the quality of Van Persie & Rooney and certainly didnt have the equalivent of £70 million to spend in his first season

Maximus Alexander

On the bright side, no European football next year should make it easier to get top 4.

beno619

No

Bandana boy wrote: »

Ye just need to keep the faith

There needs to be a bit of context to the argument, it's not as simple as faith.

FutureGuy

Its All Wright wrote: »

Fergie didnt inherit a team with the quality of Van Persie & Rooney and certainly didnt have the equalivent of £70 million to spend in his first season

Yep. Good stat. SAF inherited a pretty average team and lost 7. Moyes inherited the Champions of England and lost just 2 less games.

Cantona's Collars

Bandana boy wrote: »

Ye just need to keep the faith

Another misleading stat,Fergie took over a team of boozers and chronic underachievers then cleared the decks to build an empire.Moyes took over the Champions & is turning them into a mid-table shambles.

bangkok

my god worst the worst performance I've seen from utd in Europe in a long time. How does Valencia still make the united team... pure rubbish, no skill, no left foot, no drive, no passion, cant cross terrible.

tom cleverly?? what exactly does he do?! cant pass forward, cant tackle, cant beat a man.......

Ashley young...can cross but cant beat a man

vidic/rio gone in the summer

rvp didn't even break sweat last night shocking, rooney terrible.

de gea could do nothing about the goals.

smalling not a right back

carrick was poor enough then again had no one beside him

evra tried very hard, probably our most likely player to create a goal. defended well

welbeck came on with a bit of drive, tried hard

kagawa linked up a bit but not on long enough

hernandez I don't think touched the ball

januzaj one of our best players this season left in the stand!!

Paulegend

Bandana boy wrote: »

Ye just need to keep the faith

pre united

Alex Ferguson (age 35)
OBE
scottish premier division (3 times)
scottish first division
scottish cup (4 times)
scottish league cup
cup winners cup


David Moyes (age 50)
football league second division
lma manager of the year (3 times)


yea its the exact same

n32

Bandana boy wrote: »

Ye just need to keep the faith

That is utter nonsense. Fergie inherited a club that was going nowhere and had been starved of success.

Cantona's Collars

Hard for our strikers to link up when one has to do the job our midfield is meant to be doing & the other is left isolated.No wonder RVP had a dig about the tactics.










RVP heat map:

adox

No

Agueroooo wrote: »

Honest question...

Do you think he has lost the dressing room?

Yes, since before Christmas IMO.

Will I Amnt

No

Paulegend wrote: »

pre united

Alex Ferguson (age 35)
OBE
scottish premier division (3 times)
scottish first division
scottish cup (4 times)
scottish league cup
cup winners cup


David Moyes (age 50)
football league second division
lma manager of the year (3 times)


yea its the exact same

Fergie was also 20 pre United, 15 at one stage too.
Heck I'm nearly sure he was 10 years old at one stage.

Paulegend

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Fergie was also 20 pre United, 15 at one stage too.
Heck I'm nearly sure he was 10 years old at one stage.

good one

Maximus Alexander

Paulegend wrote: »

pre united

Alex Ferguson (age 45)
OBE
scottish premier division (3 times)
scottish first division
scottish cup (4 times)
scottish league cup
cup winners cup
super cup


David Moyes (age 50)
football league second division
lma manager of the year (3 times)

FTFY :P

Julez

No

If I hear anyone compare Fergies start to Moyes I will scream, such a stupid, stupid useless comparison.

Cantona's Collars

I think I know what the real problem is: Steve Round doesn't wear shorts in the dugout.

Will I Amnt

No

Paulegend wrote: »

good one

You would have got your point across just as well by using the age he took over the job at instead of trying to make it look even worse.