Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

TheDoc

If we step back and look at this from a different perspective, it's such a weird scenario.

For the first time in essentially what, 15 years atleast, there is calls of the Manchester United manager to be sacked. It's something that is pretty much new territory for everyone involved. Fans, the club, the board. The players.
The only thing we have, and the club have, is looking around. To take some examples of the pros and cons of sacking your manager.

There is some good examples this year, Sunderland being a prime one, Palace another, but there are pretty bad examples aswell, Cardiff and Fulham are two prime examples.

I don't full heartedly agree with the "We stand by our manager" arguement. It's somewhat flawed and bent to fit a particular arguement. Ferguson took over a club that while had success previously, was floundering at the time. He came in with big credentials from Scotland that for the time were extremely impressive.
And once he got things right, they never really went wrong to a point where there were calls for his head. Of course there was issues, bad signings, poor decisions in matches, but it was always considered a blip in what was a monstrous career of success.

I think alot of pundits will feed in alot of rubbish that can sometimes stick as being truth. One of them being " a manager needs to have success or titles behind him, to be respected". And this is normally put as a thing for big clubs. I personally think that is rubbish. And I don't think it is applicable here. While the loud shouts are a cry to remove Moyes, when you tear away the calls for his sacking and look at what's happening in these matches, while obviously there is blame to be portioned onthe manager, you cannot escape how pathetic the players have been.
We hear the generic pundit comments of "lost the dressing room" "no belief in the system" and the likes, but I think this simply goes further to aid Moyes claims, and I think something like last night, cements his position for another year atleast. And I'll try and explain why.

As fans we focus obviously on what happens on the pitch with performances, and make very loosely generic links based on what we see. At it's simplest, we see poor performances from players who last year walked the league, the only variable being the manager, and we equate this to the problem being, the manager. But I think if you take the situation as a whole, there is much more going on here. And I think it does go lengths to explain why Moyes is still in a job, and I believe will be until atleast the end of next year.
Moyes identified early in his reign he needed certain replacements, or in his view, world class replacements. That simply didn't materialise.

I think last night when I read some commentary from pundits afterwards, and some post match dissection today, it was the first time accross a number of media outlets I saw the players really take the blunt of it, for the first time.
Ok so he put out a 4-4-2 last night. A change and shift from the really positive stuff at Palace. But last night there was no Mata, cup tied, there is alot of confusion around Januzaj. He is not in the senior squad. He is in the underage squad which can be promoted at a certain point. So he's not available for selection (open to correction on this) and Fellaini was just back from injury and played a few days ago.
Regardless of really what we put out, if we really are honest with ourselves, the team out there last night should be beating, or putting up a really tough test, to Olympiakos.

The strategy in a sense was somewhat sound. No available strikers and a team that "tries" to play at a high pace but doesn't posses the technical players to operate at that tempo. The idea being suck them in, and then lash out with pace on the wings and RVP and Rooney up top. Olympiakos should have posed no real threat. But with our wasteful possession, unforced errors and general sloppy play, we invited and invited pressure. The defence was a shambles and all over the place. Ferdinand had another horrible game. Smalling was wasteful in possesion and getting skint by an average winger. Vidic was poison on the ball and Evra was as usual slack as ****. The amount of times he stood of letting crosses come in.
The midfield were equally as sloppy and giving the ball away, and there was just nothing of a spark of inventiveness. I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how that is Moyes fault. He would expect, as would you or I, that players in a Manchester United team can accurately hit passes to each other, play with some form of tempo and pace. It was like a training match last night, the pace was shocking. Vidic and Ferdinand were getting on the ball and walking with it, Carricka nd Cleverly weren't dropping short to receive. Carrick was horribly exposed last night, showing how he just slows things down so much. I think he might be under real threat of being demoted during the summer, someone described him best as pedestrian.

While Moyes may have picked the personal and the formation, it was executed disgracefully by the team, no one having a standout game at all. And that is happening to often, the team as a whole being dysfunctional and abject in their responabilities.

I'm not some avid David Moyes fanboy. I didn't watch him at Everton singing his name from the rooftops. But he did good work with them for ten years, and was selected to manage us when realistically if the club wanted, they could have gone for anyone in the world, bar Pep. The reason why I am supportive of him, is because I fail to believe it is all his fault.
I watch the games, and I'm seeing slack play, unforced errors, poor movement and downright lazyness. I'm watching a Moyes get noticably more stressed physically, and I'm sure he is lieing awake at night wondering how he supposed to deal with a team who simply look like they don't give a **** anymore.

There just isn't a reaction coming from the players. To me it looks like alot of them arn't ready for a fight. And it's a big fight. A mourinho led Chelsea, a ressurgent City, a rising Liverpool and a reinvented Arsenal. Some of these players look like they arn't pushed in proving themselves again. And maybe that's being noticed above aswell. It's probably been noticed by Moyes.

These arn't Moyes players. These were Fergusons. Moyes will have had a year with them come summer, and I'm sure he will have plenty to say to the board and Woodward in relation to who needs to go and what he wants in.

Ferdinand had another shocker last night. He is simply just past his best and relied on his pace in his twenties. Finished.
Vidic has already being dealt with. In possession he has looked appaling this year ( to think people mentioned him being underrated in possess) and has had too many culpable games.
Evra displays the exterior of a man who purely doesn't care. How Buttner isn't playing, regardless of his level ,is a disgrace. I was of the regard keep him around for next year to help bleed in a new LB. AFter that slack attitude last night defensively, he can go for all I care.
Cleverly isn't working out in that role. Either give him license to go forward, or sell him. No point keeping him to make numbers, he cant do the job Moyes wants.
Carrick is like 33 now or something. He has enver been a high tempo midfielder. He has always played a relatively slow pace. I don't think he has a longterm future to be honest. I never overly understood the "Carrick is so important" arguement. And I do tend to take note of defensive duties. He got sold an arsehole again last night for the second goal. Defensively he is pretty mediocre. Could be replaced with something much more productive.
Valencia has totally regressed. And I mean totally. One dimensional player that has added nothing to his game. Can't play auxilarly right back as people might think. Sell in the summer
Ashley Young impressed me somewhat when he arrived but has done nothing by frustrate since. Little patches here and there of good form. I'd be looking to offload in the summer.
RVP made some weird comments post match last night. He has been hit with injury this year, but still has like 14 goals in 22 apps which is excellent. But he needs to either dry his eyes or leave. I fully acccept and sympathise his feelings of betrayal. But he left Arsenal and got a title winners medal. He needs to make his own decision, either he is here to help bring the club back to the top, or he can leave. You'd easily fetch back the 20m spent and could pave the way for a Cavani or Falcao or Costa. I'd love him to stay, but not if it's a half arsed "I was betrayed" attitude resonating on the pitch.
I've some sympathy for Smalling, hes a CB playing out of position. But hes doing himself no favours. Poor in possesion, defensively looking shaky, needs to really buck up.

De Gea and Rooney, the ONLY two players that started last night that I feel have a genuine future. That's scary. That's not what seemed obvious at the start of the season, but has become more and more evident as the season has gone on.

And I don't think it's a tough sell, for Moyes to convey that to any board, if they even need to be told. It looks obvious to me. So maybe it's obvious to them.

You know what might really help, what might really kick life into some of this rubbish that walks onto the pitch.

The Glazers, or even Ferguson, making a statement outlining that Manchester United have no intention of removing David Moyes form his position, however based on the performances of the squad this year, a number of playing staff will be sold in the summer and replaced.
Few too many of those players probably wont even contemplate being sold, and it's about time the penny dropped.

I'm still backing Moyes, as stupid as it appears to others, butit's only because I'm infuriated by the players who have been nothing by trash for most of this season.

This squad needs replacing, it needs fresh blood. It needs players who Moyes has brought in, who he can call his own, and they can call his manager. Players who didn't play under Ferguson, who can't reminise to old methods or team talks. They need a reset button. And until that happens, I can't see things getting better. It's one thing if it was a few games here and there, if it was the start of the season, this has been essentially a full season. There is a pathalogical breakdown in the squad, and I for one, don't believe it's Moyes, I believe it's players failing to adapt to the change.

Theresalwaysone

No

scudzilla wrote: »

Heard from a mate who goes to the away games that the away support for Moyes has been terrific, as soon as that changes then he'll be gone.

lol whats the rationale behind your mates prediction? Sounds quite self righteous.

TheDoc

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Has an announcement been made on the NYSE?

From a number of media outlets

United are baffled by the claims from America and maintain their stance that Moyes will be given time to succeed

TheDoc

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

lol whats the rationale behind your mates prediction? Sounds quite self righteous.

In England the away fan base is typically regarded as the hard core "true fan" element to a club. It can sometimes be construed that home attendance can be filled up with a lot of tourists, "foreign fans" and corporate attendees.

That is actually something that is regarded in a lot of European top clubs, a lazy attitude, but sometimes the away fans are regarded as the "real voice of the fans".

Its All Wright

Lads are you all deluded? Moyes wont be getting sacked! There will be no announcement. The board have accepted we wont finish top 4 and they never expected Moyes to deliver a Champions League this season. There sticking by him and backing him in the summer. Theres no point coming in here & speculating after every defeat. I want him gone too but have accepted hes our long term manager

Hank Scorpio

No

If the players turn on him he will be sacked

scudzilla

No

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

lol whats the rationale behind your mates prediction? Sounds quite self righteous.

TheDoc wrote: »

In England the away fan base is typically regarded as the hard core "true fan" element to a club. It can sometimes be construed that home attendance can be filled up with a lot of tourists, "foreign fans" and corporate attendees.

That is actually something that is regarded in a lot of European top clubs, a lazy attitude, but sometimes the away fans are regarded as the "real voice of the fans".

^ ^ What TheDoc said

If the hardcore away fans turn then it's gonna put the board in a real tight spot, up until now they've supported Moyes but i feel the tide is turning.

When i say supported him i think most aint happy but will not let it become public and chant against him

FatherTed

TheDoc wrote: »

...

This squad needs replacing, it needs fresh blood. It needs players who Moyes has brought in, who he can call his own, and they can call his manager. Players who didn't play under Ferguson, who can't reminise to old methods or team talks. They need a reset button. And until that happens, I can't see things getting better. It's one thing if it was a few games here and there, if it was the start of the season, this has been essentially a full season. There is a pathalogical breakdown in the squad, and I for one, don't believe it's Moyes, I believe it's players failing to adapt to the change.

Our squad is essentially the same as last year except Fellaini for Scholes who started a whopping 8 Prem games and 1 CL game last season. We won the Prem by 11 points and if not for the ref in the Real Madrid game at Old Trafford, we probably would have gotten to the CL semis. We can talk about how we over achieved and how crap the other teams in the Prem were last year but suddenly all these players have turned to shyte? We should ask ourselves this question, if we had gotten Jose/Ancelotti/Pep instead or even if Sir Alex had stayed another year, would we be in this position? No chance.

Moyes is a limited coach with limited tactical approach; he tries to play a football style that nullifies the strength of United's best players (RVP, Rooney) and makes them rely on their weaker players e.g. Young and Valencia. Whenever the United defenders had the ball in this game, they simply didn't know to who they should pass, there was no midfielder coming to them and asking for the ball, making their jobs easier. The lack of fast ball rotation, primary plan: crossing the ball and see what happens. Although that 2nd goal was badly defended, United could and should have won this game without too much problem. We're talking Olympiakos, not Real/Barca/Bayern/PSG here. Not only that, Moyes is surprised because we're supposedly in good form. So 3 wins in the 12 games since the turn of the year is good form?

Theresalwaysone

No

scudzilla wrote: »

^ ^ What TheDoc said

If the hardcore away fans turn then it's gonna put the board in a real tight spot, up until now they've supported Moyes but i feel the tide is turning.

When i say supported him i think most aint happy but will not let it become public and chant against him

I very much doubt that the Glazers or the Board care about what the away fans think. They have no incentive to.

Unless the away fans are shareholders, and more importantly, hold a large quantity of shares.

goodolegill

No

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Dude you are seriously confused because you remember incorrectly.


[URL="RE:Trap see here...[url]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86483542&postcount=145[/url]"]RE:Trap see here...[/url]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86483542&postcount=145

To stick the knife in - implies that you once supported/backed a manager/player/team. It is an expression used to call someone out as a traitor/turncoat. But since I like many Irish soccer fans, never liked/had any time for the muppetry of Trappatoni. How does's consistently not liking him suddenly constitute sticking the knife in?

Maybe get your facts right - I never had any time for that waste of space. After all his years in charge, he hadn't the manners or respect for us to even speak our language properly. But there's no doubt in my mind, that he'd be speaking fluent German within 6 months if he landed that gig.

im confused now, you have been advocating that all managers need time. But Trap was a manager who u didnt have time for - he was an exception because a 60 + year old man couldnt master the language.

I think the point most people are trying to make is that your logic is ludicrous as if its some secret formula that all managers should get 3 1/2 years because it worked once. Di canio for sunderland - should he have been given more time.

The side has got worse from the beginning of the season under his management and with the additions of 70 million of talent and one of europes most exciting teenagers.

adox

No

Its All Wright wrote: »

Lads are you all deluded? Moyes wont be getting sacked! There will be no announcement. The board have accepted we wont finish top 4 and they never expected Moyes to deliver a Champions League this season. There sticking by him and backing him in the summer. Theres no point coming in here & speculating after every defeat. I want him gone too but have accepted hes our long term manager

While I agree with your first part, the second part I dont and wont accept him as our long term manager.

He will be sacked, I`ve no doubt about that. Unfortunately for Manchester United it may be later rather than sooner but it is inevitable that he will be sacked imo.

I find it unbelievable that there are posters on here that are still backing him and calling for the squad to be replaced. I really dont understand their thinking at all. Its like they look at all the things that are wrong this season, look at past seasons and all the variables and come up with the completely wrong answer. I dont mean that in a snarly or condescending way but I just cant get my ahead around their thought process.

This is serious **** for Utd, really really serious. The decisions over the coming months will affect the club for years to come. Every sinew in my body hope they dont continue to back the wrong horse - Moyes. Without being sensationalist I believe, if left in charge in the medium term, he will destroy the club and it could takes Utd years to recover from the damage.

It is just so ****ing obvious that hes not up to the job. It is as frustrating as hell to see it continue to unfold under your nose. Utd made a huge error appointing him(fair enough hindsight and all that) and are continuing to not do what is best for the club by leaving him in charge. The club seem to be in denial, as do a few posters here.

The sooner all wake up and smell the coffee, the sooner we can move on and get the club back on track.

bangkok

nuxxx wrote: »

If the players turn on him he will be sacked

which players? vidic, rio, hernandez, Anderson, will all be gone in summer anyway. kagawa maybe.

Valencia cleverly young are all punching above their weight so they wont say anything.

rooney signed a new contract so he wont say anything.

fellani januzaj wont say a thing...

Rafael jones smalling evans wont be saying anything

that just leaves rvp... if he kicks up sell him get 15m or that and buy a new striker....

TheDoc

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

I very much doubt that the Glazers or the Board care about what the away fans think. They have no incentive to.

Unless the away fans are shareholders, and more importantly, hold a large quantity of shares.

That's an assumption there. Old Trafford will always be full of foreign fans, tourists, corporate spectators etc. If support starts to sway from the season ticket holders, it does put pressure on the manager.

Lord TSC

No

I don't mind that some people want to give him time.

But the sheer dismissive-ness of some people is shocking imo. "Why are we talking about this, you're all crazy, he's going nowhere". A complete lack of desire from some people to even discuss it, coming accross as if they've their fingers in their ears and their heads in the sand

Pro. F

No

TheDoc wrote: »

If we step back and look at this from a different perspective, it's such a weird scenario.

For the first time in essentially what, 15 years atleast, there is calls of the Manchester United manager to be sacked. It's something that is pretty much new territory for everyone involved. Fans, the club, the board. The players.
The only thing we have, and the club have, is looking around. To take some examples of the pros and cons of sacking your manager.

There is some good examples this year, Sunderland being a prime one, Palace another, but there are pretty bad examples aswell, Cardiff and Fulham are two prime examples.

I don't full heartedly agree with the "We stand by our manager" arguement. It's somewhat flawed and bent to fit a particular arguement. Ferguson took over a club that while had success previously, was floundering at the time. He came in with big credentials from Scotland that for the time were extremely impressive.
And once he got things right, they never really went wrong to a point where there were calls for his head. Of course there was issues, bad signings, poor decisions in matches, but it was always considered a blip in what was a monstrous career of success.

I think alot of pundits will feed in alot of rubbish that can sometimes stick as being truth. One of them being " a manager needs to have success or titles behind him, to be respected". And this is normally put as a thing for big clubs. I personally think that is rubbish. And I don't think it is applicable here. While the loud shouts are a cry to remove Moyes, when you tear away the calls for his sacking and look at what's happening in these matches, while obviously there is blame to be portioned onthe manager, you cannot escape how pathetic the players have been.
We hear the generic pundit comments of "lost the dressing room" "no belief in the system" and the likes, but I think this simply goes further to aid Moyes claims, and I think something like last night, cements his position for another year atleast. And I'll try and explain why.

As fans we focus obviously on what happens on the pitch with performances, and make very loosely generic links based on what we see. At it's simplest, we see poor performances from players who last year walked the league, the only variable being the manager, and we equate this to the problem being, the manager. But I think if you take the situation as a whole, there is much more going on here. And I think it does go lengths to explain why Moyes is still in a job, and I believe will be until atleast the end of next year.
Moyes identified early in his reign he needed certain replacements, or in his view, world class replacements. That simply didn't materialise.

I think last night when I read some commentary from pundits afterwards, and some post match dissection today, it was the first time accross a number of media outlets I saw the players really take the blunt of it, for the first time.
Ok so he put out a 4-4-2 last night. A change and shift from the really positive stuff at Palace. But last night there was no Mata, cup tied, there is alot of confusion around Januzaj. He is not in the senior squad. He is in the underage squad which can be promoted at a certain point. So he's not available for selection (open to correction on this) and Fellaini was just back from injury and played a few days ago.
Regardless of really what we put out, if we really are honest with ourselves, the team out there last night should be beating, or putting up a really tough test, to Olympiakos.

The strategy in a sense was somewhat sound. No available strikers and a team that "tries" to play at a high pace but doesn't posses the technical players to operate at that tempo. The idea being suck them in, and then lash out with pace on the wings and RVP and Rooney up top. Olympiakos should have posed no real threat. But with our wasteful possession, unforced errors and general sloppy play, we invited and invited pressure. The defence was a shambles and all over the place. Ferdinand had another horrible game. Smalling was wasteful in possesion and getting skint by an average winger. Vidic was poison on the ball and Evra was as usual slack as ****. The amount of times he stood of letting crosses come in.
The midfield were equally as sloppy and giving the ball away, and there was just nothing of a spark of inventiveness. I'm sorry but I'm failing to see how that is Moyes fault. He would expect, as would you or I, that players in a Manchester United team can accurately hit passes to each other, play with some form of tempo and pace. It was like a training match last night, the pace was shocking. Vidic and Ferdinand were getting on the ball and walking with it, Carricka nd Cleverly weren't dropping short to receive. Carrick was horribly exposed last night, showing how he just slows things down so much. I think he might be under real threat of being demoted during the summer, someone described him best as pedestrian.

While Moyes may have picked the personal and the formation, it was executed disgracefully by the team, no one having a standout game at all. And that is happening to often, the team as a whole being dysfunctional and abject in their responabilities.

I'm not some avid David Moyes fanboy. I didn't watch him at Everton singing his name from the rooftops. But he did good work with them for ten years, and was selected to manage us when realistically if the club wanted, they could have gone for anyone in the world, bar Pep. The reason why I am supportive of him, is because I fail to believe it is all his fault.
I watch the games, and I'm seeing slack play, unforced errors, poor movement and downright lazyness. I'm watching a Moyes get noticably more stressed physically, and I'm sure he is lieing awake at night wondering how he supposed to deal with a team who simply look like they don't give a **** anymore.

There just isn't a reaction coming from the players. To me it looks like alot of them arn't ready for a fight. And it's a big fight. A mourinho led Chelsea, a ressurgent City, a rising Liverpool and a reinvented Arsenal. Some of these players look like they arn't pushed in proving themselves again. And maybe that's being noticed above aswell. It's probably been noticed by Moyes.

These arn't Moyes players. These were Fergusons. Moyes will have had a year with them come summer, and I'm sure he will have plenty to say to the board and Woodward in relation to who needs to go and what he wants in.

Ferdinand had another shocker last night. He is simply just past his best and relied on his pace in his twenties. Finished.
Vidic has already being dealt with. In possession he has looked appaling this year ( to think people mentioned him being underrated in possess) and has had too many culpable games.
Evra displays the exterior of a man who purely doesn't care. How Buttner isn't playing, regardless of his level ,is a disgrace. I was of the regard keep him around for next year to help bleed in a new LB. AFter that slack attitude last night defensively, he can go for all I care.
Cleverly isn't working out in that role. Either give him license to go forward, or sell him. No point keeping him to make numbers, he cant do the job Moyes wants.
Carrick is like 33 now or something. He has enver been a high tempo midfielder. He has always played a relatively slow pace. I don't think he has a longterm future to be honest. I never overly understood the "Carrick is so important" arguement. And I do tend to take note of defensive duties. He got sold an arsehole again last night for the second goal. Defensively he is pretty mediocre. Could be replaced with something much more productive.
Valencia has totally regressed. And I mean totally. One dimensional player that has added nothing to his game. Can't play auxilarly right back as people might think. Sell in the summer
Ashley Young impressed me somewhat when he arrived but has done nothing by frustrate since. Little patches here and there of good form. I'd be looking to offload in the summer.
RVP made some weird comments post match last night. He has been hit with injury this year, but still has like 14 goals in 22 apps which is excellent. But he needs to either dry his eyes or leave. I fully acccept and sympathise his feelings of betrayal. But he left Arsenal and got a title winners medal. He needs to make his own decision, either he is here to help bring the club back to the top, or he can leave. You'd easily fetch back the 20m spent and could pave the way for a Cavani or Falcao or Costa. I'd love him to stay, but not if it's a half arsed "I was betrayed" attitude resonating on the pitch.
I've some sympathy for Smalling, hes a CB playing out of position. But hes doing himself no favours. Poor in possesion, defensively looking shaky, needs to really buck up.

De Gea and Rooney, the ONLY two players that started last night that I feel have a genuine future. That's scary. That's not what seemed obvious at the start of the season, but has become more and more evident as the season has gone on.

And I don't think it's a tough sell, for Moyes to convey that to any board, if they even need to be told. It looks obvious to me. So maybe it's obvious to them.

You know what might really help, what might really kick life into some of this rubbish that walks onto the pitch.

The Glazers, or even Ferguson, making a statement outlining that Manchester United have no intention of removing David Moyes form his position, however based on the performances of the squad this year, a number of playing staff will be sold in the summer and replaced.
Few too many of those players probably wont even contemplate being sold, and it's about time the penny dropped.

I'm still backing Moyes, as stupid as it appears to others, butit's only because I'm infuriated by the players who have been nothing by trash for most of this season.

This squad needs replacing, it needs fresh blood. It needs players who Moyes has brought in, who he can call his own, and they can call his manager. Players who didn't play under Ferguson, who can't reminise to old methods or team talks. They need a reset button. And until that happens, I can't see things getting better. It's one thing if it was a few games here and there, if it was the start of the season, this has been essentially a full season. There is a pathalogical breakdown in the squad, and I for one, don't believe it's Moyes, I believe it's players failing to adapt to the change.

At what point does good players consistently playing badly become the managers responsibility?

Macca07

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

I very much doubt that the Glazers or the Board care about what the away fans think. They have no incentive to.

Unless the away fans are shareholders, and more importantly, hold a large quantity of shares.

They'll care when they miss out on CL football in successive seasons and are hit hard financially because of it.

Liam O

I reckon United should look closer at these glaziers everyone's mentioning. I mean I looked at Old Trafford, there's a lot of them but there's only so much money you can spend on windows before it becomes too much.

goodolegill

No

Tim howard piece on the differences between Moyes and Martinez

See if it reflects the way we set up last night??

“Not much,” said goalkeeper Tim Howard when asked the extent to which they have focused on their opponents. “We work on ourselves. It is a difference. “He [Martinez] will have some specific areas in which he thinks Tottenham are weak, or Sunderland and Crystal Palace for example are weak and we will train on trying to exploit them.

“That is what our training sessions will be about as opposed to, ‘Here is what they are going to do to hurt us and this is what we are going to do to defend against them’.

“That is not in the manager’s nature. The way his mind works, it is like movie, ‘A Beautiful Mind’.

“He always sees holes in the other team. He doesn’t see the danger, he sees the weakness. And he always gets us working on that

“That has been a positive, a bright spark for us. Preparations during the week, no matter what game you go into, the focus has not at any point in time this season been on the other team. On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it has always been about us. When you have to do this for 40 weeks of the year, it’s nice not have to come into work every day thinking, ‘Oh, that’s looming ahead’.

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

when you tear away the calls for his sacking and look at what's happening in these matches, while obviously there is blame to be portioned onthe manager, you cannot escape how pathetic the players have been.

They have been pathetic, but the Cleverley and Valencia selections were a complete WTF when assessing the manager performance.

Those two have been shocking all season and there were other viable options that Moyes could have went for, but he didn't, he picked two useless players that have been useless all season.

There is little point in being surprised that they were useless again last night, a far more pertinent question is why they were on the field in the first place, and that comes back to David Moyes.


By the way, you might have addressed this later in your post but unfortunately it was the very embodiment of TLDR.

Theresalwaysone

No

TheDoc wrote: »

That's an assumption there. Old Trafford will always be full of foreign fans, tourists, corporate spectators etc. If support starts to sway from the season ticket holders, it does put pressure on the manager.

Of course its an assumption.

Its a business. The away fans feelings should rationally be so far down the list of considerations of a big business decision as they have so little affect of the businesses revenue streams.

Firing Moyes will ultimately be a busineas decision.

lordgoat

No

goodolegill wrote: »

Tim howard piece on the differences between Moyes and Martinez

See if it reflects the way we set up last night??

“Not much,” said goalkeeper Tim Howard when asked the extent to which they have focused on their opponents. “We work on ourselves. It is a difference. “He [Martinez] will have some specific areas in which he thinks Tottenham are weak, or Sunderland and Crystal Palace for example are weak and we will train on trying to exploit them.

“That is what our training sessions will be about as opposed to, ‘Here is what they are going to do to hurt us and this is what we are going to do to defend against them’.

“That is not in the manager’s nature. The way his mind works, it is like movie, ‘A Beautiful Mind’.

“He always sees holes in the other team. He doesn’t see the danger, he sees the weakness. And he always gets us working on that

“That has been a positive, a bright spark for us. Preparations during the week, no matter what game you go into, the focus has not at any point in time this season been on the other team. On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it has always been about us. When you have to do this for 40 weeks of the year, it’s nice not have to come into work every day thinking, ‘Oh, that’s looming ahead’.

Martinez in!!

Mitch Connor

No

goodolegill wrote: »

Tim howard piece on the differences between Moyes and Martinez

See if it reflects the way we set up last night??

“Not much,” said goalkeeper Tim Howard when asked the extent to which they have focused on their opponents. “We work on ourselves. It is a difference. “He [Martinez] will have some specific areas in which he thinks Tottenham are weak, or Sunderland and Crystal Palace for example are weak and we will train on trying to exploit them.

“That is what our training sessions will be about as opposed to, ‘Here is what they are going to do to hurt us and this is what we are going to do to defend against them’.

“That is not in the manager’s nature. The way his mind works, it is like movie, ‘A Beautiful Mind’.

“He always sees holes in the other team. He doesn’t see the danger, he sees the weakness. And he always gets us working on that

“That has been a positive, a bright spark for us. Preparations during the week, no matter what game you go into, the focus has not at any point in time this season been on the other team. On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it has always been about us. When you have to do this for 40 weeks of the year, it’s nice not have to come into work every day thinking, ‘Oh, that’s looming ahead’.

In a nutshell - why Moyes should never have been given the job.

Hococop

No

zerks wrote: »

Schmeichel on twitter:

now im even more upset, that he is upset

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

While I agree with your first part, the second part I dont and wont accept him as our long term manager.

He will be sacked, I`ve no doubt about that. Unfortunately for Manchester United it may be later rather than sooner but it is inevitable that he will be sacked imo.

I find it unbelievable that there are posters on here that are still backing him and calling for the squad to be replaced. I really dont understand their thinking at all. Its like they look at all the things that are wrong this season, look at past seasons and all the variables and come up with the completely wrong answer. I dont mean that in a snarly or condescending way but I just cant get my ahead around their thought process.

This is serious **** for Utd, really really serious. The decisions over the coming months will affect the club for years to come. Every sinew in my body hope they dont continue to back the wrong horse - Moyes. Without being sensationalist I believe, if left in charge in the medium term, he will destroy the club and it could takes Utd years to recover from the damage.

It is just so ****ing obvious that hes not up to the job. It is as frustrating as hell to see it continue to unfold under your nose. Utd made a huge error appointing him(fair enough hindsight and all that) and are continuing to not do what is best for the club by leaving him in charge. The club seem to be in denial, as do a few posters here.

The sooner all wake up and smell the coffee, the sooner we can move on and get the club back on track.

Some good analysis today and a good read from Rob Harris ( if your so inclined). Reviewed comments from David Gill and transcripts sent to the board before Fergusons retirement and when it was announced.

It was pretty specific it outlining that the club felt the squad was in good shape, and would be able to compete while bedding in a new manager allowing him to bring in one or two of his preferred playing staff. But the club wanted to ensure the manager they brought in would not upheave the squad.

That message has changed since December with the realisation that the ability for Ferguson to drive staff on to achieve targets above their limitations, simply couldnt be quantified on paper. It is understood now the task is much larger then originally thought, and that while initially the playing squad was expected to largely stay the same, it is now accepted the squad requires major reworks to ensure a return to competitiveness.

This message Woodward delivered already at a shareholder address. It is understood the club are organising financials so that a large sum will be available for the summer window.

And it somewhat eludes to the point I was making. You can't quantify Fergusons ability to overachieve with average players. The arguement of "the same players won the league last year" is easily countered with "managed by Ferguson" which is something that is easily ommited. It's a massive factor that you simply cannot put into any sort of words. Aside from the league being piss poor last year, Ferguson was a different animal. Moyes is coming into a machine that is essentially on auto-pilot, and he needs to grab hold of the wheel and put his mark on things.

That means clearing out what he believes is players not up to standard, and bringing in those that are.

Liverpool are the ultimate story to scare any big club, into not resting on their lorells, and do everything in their power to ensure that success is maintained.

I see no point in firing Moyes, and loose all the potential work he has been planning. Who knows what he has planned for the summer and beyond. Jesus christ we could sign some serious big hitters and win the league next year and all of this ****e will be forgotten.

But he needs to be given the chance, and that includes the resources and backing to do it. I think the Harris column today is very telling. United had a stance of "squad requires little change or investment" upon Moyes arrival, who they felt was low maintenance and wouldn't look to break up the squad. The club are now fully aware of the deficiencies in the squad, and it appears Moyes will be given the resources and signings to rectify it.

BloodBath

No

Doc I like your posts generally but when you post a wall of text longer than an entire page of posts only to conclude with putting the blame on the players and not Moyes I'll be skipping all of your walls of texts in future.

FutureGuy

goodolegill wrote: »

Tim howard piece on the differences between Moyes and Martinez

See if it reflects the way we set up last night??

“Not much,” said goalkeeper Tim Howard when asked the extent to which they have focused on their opponents. “We work on ourselves. It is a difference. “He [Martinez] will have some specific areas in which he thinks Tottenham are weak, or Sunderland and Crystal Palace for example are weak and we will train on trying to exploit them.

“That is what our training sessions will be about as opposed to, ‘Here is what they are going to do to hurt us and this is what we are going to do to defend against them’.

“That is not in the manager’s nature. The way his mind works, it is like movie, ‘A Beautiful Mind’.

“He always sees holes in the other team. He doesn’t see the danger, he sees the weakness. And he always gets us working on that

“That has been a positive, a bright spark for us. Preparations during the week, no matter what game you go into, the focus has not at any point in time this season been on the other team. On Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it has always been about us. When you have to do this for 40 weeks of the year, it’s nice not have to come into work every day thinking, ‘Oh, that’s looming ahead’.

That is the single greatest snippet posted on this thread in many many months.

BloodBath

No

It outlines moyes obvious negativity and mindset.

How anybody can still support him when it's obvious all season that this is his mindset and how he operates is beyond me.

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

They have been pathetic, but the Cleverley and Valencia selections were a complete WTF when assessing the manager performance.

Those two have been shocking all season and there were other viable options that Moyes could have went for, but he didn't, he picked two useless players that have been useless all season.

There is little point in being surprised that they were useless again last night, a far more pertinent question is why they were on the field in the first place, and that comes back to David Moyes.


By the way, you might have addressed this later in your post but unfortunately it was the very embodiment of TLDR.

What alternatives is there?

Fellaini coming back from injury, obviously felt another game was too much for him.

Who plays CM alongside Carrick, if not Cleverly?

Who plays wide right if not Valencia?
Mata cuptied and Januzaj not eligible for the champions league snior squad at this time.

Hank Scorpio

No

Give Moyes another year in the hope he turns it round or get a proven manager in. No brainer for me.

There are no signs of progress being made its been the opposite since xmas and that is very worrying.

Mitch Connor

No

TheDoc wrote: »

What alternatives is there?

Fellaini coming back from injury, obviously felt another game was too much for him.

Who plays CM alongside Carrick, if not Cleverly?

Who plays wide right if not Valencia?
Mata cuptied and Januzaj not eligible for the champions league snior squad at this time.

Januzaj is eligible, and has been since CL GW4 I think. Moyes simply chose not to start him, or have him in the squad.

xtal191

No

Getting slated all over Europe

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/manchester-united-and-david-moyes-slated-by-european-media

TheDoc

BloodBath wrote: »

Doc I like your posts generally but when you post a wall of text longer than an entire page of posts only to conclude with putting the blame on the players and not Moyes I'll be skipping all of your walls of texts in future.

That's cool.

I do tend to post longer stuff, as covered before I type fast, I've a history in journalism, so it's just habbit. I've been posting on forums and discussion forums since I can remember getting the internet.

I personally dislike how social media has ensured that we all need to get our point across in one paragraph. Yeah its cool to read quickly, but you loose so much good stuff in writing.

I'm not doing it out of some obscured belief in just being the devils advocate, or blind fanboism to SAF's retirement speech. I just have a genuine feeling that while of course there is issues and problems with Moyes this season, there is just as many, and in my view, more sinister problems with the actual playing staff.

This season has been a stark reminder how lucky we were with SAF for so long, and how good he was, winning titles with the dross that is in our squad.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Januzaj is eligible, and has been since CL GW4 I think. Moyes simply chose not to start him, or have him in the squad.

I was under the impression that he is in the under age squad, where there is a specific circumstance of timeframe the player can be promoted to the senior squad. It's very confusing to be honest, some stuff I read pre-match last night indicated he wasn't eligible, some post match stuff asking where was he since he was eligible.

I'm well confused over it and just went with the gut feeling he wasn't eligible, as it makes no sense to not have him in the squad.

Leftist

No

TheDoc wrote: »

.

I see no point in firing Moyes, and loose all the potential work he has been planning. Who knows what he has planned for the summer and beyond. Jesus christ we could sign some serious big hitters and win the league next year and all of this ****e will be forgotten.

i'm afraid that's an opinion that is complete ****e.

you're seeing what you would like to happen, not what is happening.

BloodBath

No

That would be fine if your opinion was the only one we were reading but there are many others and it's infuriating to me to have read all of that to come to the end conclusion that the squad needs changing and not Moyes.

You're entitled to your opinion and the squad definitely needs strengthening but we will never win anything under Moyes and his negative tactics.

He could have played Valencia at RB instead of Smalling, Smalling at CB instead of Rio with Jan playing right wing and Fellaini in midfield instead of Cleverly and Kagawa instead of Young.

Not perfect but far better than what he did put out.

Mitch Connor

No

TheDoc wrote: »

I was under the impression that he is in the under age squad, where there is a specific circumstance of timeframe the player can be promoted to the senior squad. It's very confusing to be honest, some stuff I read pre-match last night indicated he wasn't eligible, some post match stuff asking where was he since he was eligible.

I'm well confused over it and just went with the gut feeling he wasn't eligible, as it makes no sense to not have him in the squad.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/adnan-januzaj-available-manchester-uniteds-6205675

Was added to the B list after the second game.

bangkok

Januzaj COULD have played last night..... he already played a game in the competition

223vmax

MUFC as a whole is seen by the MUFC board as a business. Whilst revenue is stable there is no need to make dramatic changes. In fact the philosophy of lets give the new manager a chance only holds true whist the club is financially stable and viable as a top 4 PL club.

Moyes will be manager until at least middle of next season. This season we wont qualify for next seasons champions league. If they look like they wont qualify for 15/16 CL then time for change as the club will not be sustainable as a top 4 PL club purely on a financial basis with not playing CL football. Another worry is which top European player will be willing to join MUFC and not play CL football...

Don't think for a minute it will go back to how it was with SAF..... When we've been spoiled for so long - a life time literally for some of you on here. Growing up near OT, MUFC fans are the most critical of their players and team whilst chatting to their mates on the stands....But now stick together cos we're all MUFC till we die...

scudzilla

No

TheDoc wrote: »

I see no point in firing Moyes, and loose all the potential work he has been planning. Who knows what he has planned for the summer and beyond. Jesus christ we could sign some serious big hitters and win the league next year and all of this ****e will be forgotten.

nuxxx wrote: »

Give Moyes another year in the hope he turns it round or get a proven manager in. No brainer for me.

There are no signs of progress being made its been the opposite since xmas and that is very worrying.

Bollox

If Moyes was playing good decent football and we were just unlucky then yes, i would go along with that, unfortunately the performances have been dire, the tactics worse and the general feeling around the club/fans is getting worse by the week.

Would you trust this guy to spend £100m (rumoured) + in the summer?

BloodBath

No

Yes we do need to stick together. We need to grow some balls and realise Fergie and the board made a mistake and that Moyes needs to go.

Mitch Connor

No

BloodBath wrote: »

Yes we do need to stick together. We need to grow some balls and realise Fergie and the board made a mistake and that Moyes needs to go.

I love how, for so long, people have said to back Fergie's judgement on Moyes - while at the same time stating Moyes needs time to rebuild the poor squad Fergie left him with.

So Fergie's judgement on Moyes is bankable, but not his judgement on the players.

bangkok

BloodBath wrote: »

Yes we do need to stick together. We need to grow some balls and realise Fergie and the board made a mistake and that Moyes needs to go.

just a question but if Klopp had of got the job and united were in the same position would ye all be calling for his head??

The_Kew_Tour

No

Its the 3rd season in a row too that we have had a disappointing CL campaign.

This will be the most embarrassing defeat in Knockout stages though in 20 years.

BloodBath

No

bangkok wrote: »

just a question but if Klopp had of got the job and united were in the same position would ye all be calling for his head??

Yes I would but it's completely hypothetical because we wouldn't be in this situation under Klopp.

Pro. F

No

I can't wait for Fellaini to start playing regularly. That will turn our season around. I thought it was going to be RvP returning, Carrick returning, Rooney returning, RvP and Rooney playing together, Januzaj playing, dropping Rio, Rafael playing, dropping Kagawa, dropping Rooney, dropping Welbeck, dropping Cleverley, playing Kagawa, playing Fletcher, playing Fletcher and Carrick together or never playing Hernandez, but I now think it would be playing Fellaini that would fix things. If Moyes would just play Fellaini at least we would play better like we did against Palace, sure that was our best performance of the season.

Delboy5

xtal191 wrote: »

Getting slated all over Europe

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/topics/manchester-united-and-david-moyes-slated-by-european-media

That'll help attract players in the summer......

Maximus Alexander

Liam O wrote: »

I reckon United should look closer at these glaziers everyone's mentioning. I mean I looked at Old Trafford, there's a lot of them but there's only so much money you can spend on windows before it becomes too much.

Oh glaziers! I thought everyone was talking about glaciers, referring to the pace of United's football lately.

TheDoc

BloodBath wrote: »

That would be fine if your opinion was the only one we were reading but there are many others and it's infuriating to me to have read all of that to come to the end conclusion that the squad needs changing and not Moyes.

Considering the majority trend here is

"People who back Moyes, are beyond me" and the likes, it's somewhat expectable that in order to convey my feelings and points, to even promote some training of thought provoking on others behalfs, it needs to be more then a quick read.

The arguements for firing him are quick and concise and don't need explanation, because most other people just agree with "him being sacked", the opposite is true for giving him time.

I do appreciate my stuff can be lengthy, so might be worth putting me on ignore so it doesn't clutter space, and just view them when you want. (not being smart, genuinelly appreciate my stuff takes up so much space)

Also thanks for the confirmation on Janners, didn't realise

Pro. F

No

bangkok wrote: »

just a question but if Klopp had of got the job and united were in the same position would ye all be calling for his head??

I would. Of course I would.

ericzeking

BloodBath wrote: »

Yes I would but it's completely hypothetical because we wouldn't be in this situation under Klopp.

You do realise Klopp has been relegated and took quite a while to get going with Dortmund...