Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Think Jose, Pep would have more likely got us over the line. I think we would have won league still with these lads. Fergie was a big difference. Dont think he was 11 points difference though.

Would disagree with you there Kew (no bad thing), I honestly don't think Jose or Pep would have been talented enough to come close to winning it (this was man management on an exceptional level) ... we have to remember too that City, Chelsea and Arsenal were pathetic last season, we had the SAF factor and we had RVP.... the stars aligned for us perfectly - of course there isn't a fcuking star in the sky this season.

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

There should have been only 1 change from last week and that was Kagawa in for Mata.

The rest picked itself.

Agreed - it was an exceptional mistake by Moyes... when I saw the team I just knew the game was lost. Will I give him a chance to finally ditch that ****e - Yes .... unless he doesn't trust Kagawa to fulfill that Mata roll - there has to be a reason why SAF and now Moyes don't seem to trust Kagawa enough.

The_Kew_Tour

No

irishfeen wrote: »

Would disagree with you there Kew (no bad thing), I honestly don't think Jose or Pep would have been talented enough to come close to winning it (this was man management on an exceptional level) ... we have to remember too that City, Chelsea and Arsenal were pathetic last season, we had the SAF factor and we had RVP.... the stars aligned for us perfectly - of course there isn't a fcuking star in the sky this season.

They were tbf, but at end of day we are here coming into March not just out of title race, out of Top 4, and CL, and nothing to play for.

I would say something if we were still in both domestic cups and won the other night.

Then we might have a glimmer of hope. But no excuse for defeat after defeat. I never felt we were going to retain league. I was confident we were going make Top 3 never mind Top 4.

Leftist

No

sickening to read some of the press articles about moyes this morning. the guardian running with how the glazers are so
impressed with moyes ipads and transfer bunker that they will overlook the utter shambles he has made of the football side
of the things.

Some of these journos were got onside by woodward and moyes early on and it was a shrewd move.

To get rid of this disaster we need the press and the fans to turn on him.

LuckyLloyd

No

Pighead wrote: »

I have two problems with some of these issues being thrown about.

My problem is equating no medals with no talent. Moyes did a very good job at Everton. Generally when you do a good job somewhere you get offered a better job somewhere else.

Also the short term nature of judging football managers. The man has managed Man Utd for six months.

You've seen yourself at your club the benefit of affording the manager time to see if he can turn things around.

Moyes may well fail but give him a chance.

Indeed. And I wanted him gone and was proven wrong (so it seems). He also had little in terms of pedigree for the specific challenge at hand too.

bangkok

any one going over to the champions league 2nd leg?

Macca07

Whatsisname wrote: »

Independent reporting he has 12 games left to prove Glaziers he's the right man for the job

What a fantastic piece of journalism, the exact amount of games United have left this season if we don't get past Olympiakos.

Macca07

irishfeen wrote: »

Its unforgivable, end of - he is a Manchester United player... with that comes a responsibility in itself..... and I quote from the great man himself in his final speech ....

""The players... I wish the players every success in the future. You know how good you are, you know the jersey you're wearing, you know what it means to everyone here and don't ever let yourself down. The expectation is always there"

RVP let himself down last night, no question.

RvP comments I think were an answer to a direct question, and he answered it truthfully, not like Carrick did and deflect the question.

There was plenty players that let themselves down on Tuesday night, but RvP wasn't one of them.

aperture_nuig

irishfeen wrote: »

You see I don't understand why he went backwards against Olympiacos - why in the christ did he send out that team is annoying me the most and i'm still pro Moyes ... it seemed he was playing for a 1-0 win or a draw but why is the big question.

I was thinking that myself when I saw the lineup. Seriously though, where is the logic in "resting" young, valencia, Smalling and fcuking Cleverley when playing league matches then suddenly deciding that the Champions league is the place to play them? I would love to be able to say that our problems are all down to a poor playing squad and will be solved in the summer, but when you see moves like that, Moyes makes himself very hard to defend.

Macca07

I'll put a question to ye, we fast forward a month, beat Liverpool, beat City and progress in the CL, would ye still want Moyes sacked?

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They were tbf, but at end of day we are here coming into March not just out of title race, out of Top 4, and CL, and nothing to play for.

I would say something if we were still in both domestic cups and won the other night.

Then we might have a glimmer of hope. But no excuse for defeat after defeat. I never felt we were going to retain league. I was confident we were going make Top 3 never mind Top 4.

Its a bold prediction but I honestly think we will be in the Champions League quarter-finals ... now that's optimism

inforfun

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Thanks for that.

It sounds like the translations we were given were fairly accurate so. Nothing shocking that he said really.

But the timing was poor imo. After a big loss I'd rather a player toe the party line and not go into such detail. The manager would be justified in giving RVP a bit of punishment, but it's no big deal. The press will pretend it's a big deal, but it would all blow over with a few wins.

Speaking about player reactions after a bad result, what about Pelle at the weekend? Now that was a proper tantrum

It was really a nothing discussion. It was answer on a question on why RvP was so little involved in the match. Anyone who has a bit of an understanding of the game could see that indeed Young and Valencia made it very hard for RvP to get into space where he could create something.

He was also not exactly mild for himself with the chance he missed.

It was just basic analysis. A lot more interesting to listen to than the standard; What did you think when you missed that chance?

And yes, Pelle

2 weeks ago at 1-1 last minute at NAC, Feyenoord got denied a penalty while having had one awarded against them for the exact same situation earlier in the match.

Last week at Twente, the GK should have been sent off and a penalty for Feyenoord in the 3rd minute, not given.
Last minute, 2-1 up, shot on the Feyenoord goal and a Twente attacker in off side position, has to jump up to avoid the ball but the goal is given because that attacker wasnt interfering.

So that is 4 points gone in 2 weeks by terrible refereeing. I kind of understood his reaction. In South America that referee probably would have had to run for his life if he pulled this off.

The_Kew_Tour

No

irishfeen wrote: »

Its a bold prediction but I honestly think we will be in the Champions League quarter-finals ... now that's optimism

Only 1 team in 21 years years has come from 2 goals down if ITV were right the other night.

I would be just small bit optimist if it was 4-2 as we have away goals. I think they will score.

bullvine

No

Macca07 wrote: »

I'll put a question to ye, we fast forward a month, beat Liverpool, beat City and progress in the CL, would ye still want Moyes sacked?

If that happens I'll never post in the soccer forum again!

The_Kew_Tour

No

bullvine wrote: »

If that happens I'll never post in the soccer forum again!

Was going to bookmark this, but I would just be wasting my time.:pac:

Macca07

We're currently 15 points off top, 11 points off 4th. We have taken 4 points against Arsenal, Chelsea parked the bus against us in our home game, City out classed us, but they have done for the last number of seasons, Liverpool weren't fantastic against us and got an early goal.

It's the form against the lower level of opposition that is questioning whether or not to stick with Moyes. We lost at home to WBA, drew at home to Southampton, drew away to Cardiff, lost at home to Everton, then Newcastle, lost at home to Spurs (don't know how we didn't get a second in that game), lost away to Stoke, drew at home to Fulham, and that's just the league.

Change the drawn games for wins, and the lost games for draws, and we would have 14 more points, putting us probably third on GD. That's what Fergie would have done with the current squad. Now it was always going to be impossible to have that standard with another manager, but a world-class manager would have us in the top 4 at least.

irishfeen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Only 1 team in 21 years years has come from 2 goals down if ITV were right the other night.

I would be just small bit optimist if it was 4-2 as we have away goals. I think they will score.

We have to do a Liverpool 2005 on it - history books are there to be rewritten... OT on a Champions League night, early goal - easy!

adox

No

Macca07 wrote: »

I'll put a question to ye, we fast forward a month, beat Liverpool, beat City and progress in the CL, would ye still want Moyes sacked?

Yes

Headshot

No

Ill call it now. A dreadful result against Liverpool and he's sacked

Macca07

adox wrote: »

Yes

OK, I would agree with you, but how about we go on a god run until the end of the season, but still miss out on CL football, narrowly, what about then?

Macca07

Headshot wrote: »

Ill call it now. A dreadful result against Liverpool and he's sacked

I would disagree with you, a dreadful result against Pool wouldn't be suprising, I'm nearly expecting it at this stage. Now if we get beaten at home by Olympiakos then that is a different matter.

K-9

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

The similarities are there between this thread and Pool one last year, moaning about interviews, team selections, saying he's not up to it etc

But the main point is that Rodgers had a distinct philosophy he was working towards, some still wanted him out anyways, but Moyes has shown us nothing like that

If it looked like Moyes was working towards something better there's no doubt I'd be behind him and I'm sure most of the support would be as well, but he simply hasn't given us that impression

I'd say Hodgson is far more comparable, an experienced manager brought into steady the ship. Hodgson had his famous international record, Moyes has 11 years at Everton that people can refer to. Both had very good records but critics as regards their style of football, the 42 games against the top 4 and never winning 1 sums up Moyes. Martinez came in and broke that within a few months.

Rodgers was coming from doing well at Watford, excellent at Swansea and poor at Reading, though even the Chairman gave him a pass there. It was always going to be a learning job, Moyes wasn't appointed for his potential or expansive football style, he was brought in because it was expected he'd get the minimum expected.

With Rodgers that meant finishing 7/8th was fine because it wasn't far off our level for the last few seasons, and we'd encouraging signs that the manager was getting it. Moyes hasn't United in the top 3 which was probably what the majority thought he'd do, not even putting in a challenge for 4th (Rodgers expected level this season), well ye know where ye are. Out of the Cups, the manner of which is very concerning and the only saving grace left, a CL tie is looking dodgy.

I suppose he can argue Felaini hasn't had much of a chance and Mata is CL tied, but even that only goes so far.

Put it this way, back to the Rodgers comparison, barring the CL for obvious reasons, Liverpool fans would be asking questions of Rodgers if we were in 6th and out of the cups. Yes, he has a season more, but that's unacceptable for United and it's getting worse, not better. His record in the New Year with RVP, Rooney back and Mata signed is relegation type form. The excuses are running out at this stage, if there's no CL to play for, it then brings into question how useful the last 9/10 PL game are as a measure of anything.

irishfeen

Headshot wrote: »

Ill call it now. A dreadful result against Liverpool and he's sacked

I think a loss to Liverpool, out of CL & a loss to City and he will be a dead man walking - hopefully from my point of view it doesn't happen.

Cantona's Collars

Macca07 wrote: »

OK, I would agree with you, but how about we go on a god run until the end of the season, but still miss out on CL football, narrowly, what about then?

You do realise that a run for us is a win,a draw & a loss.:(

Lord TSC

No

Macca07 wrote: »

I'll put a question to ye, we fast forward a month, beat Liverpool, beat City and progress in the CL, would ye still want Moyes sacked?

Won a single game against the top 8 or so all season, and you think we'll beat two in quick succession, and overturn a 2-0 deficit in the league.


If that happened, I'd likely run up and down the street naked :P It's not going to happen.

Agueroooo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Indeed. And I wanted him gone and was proven wrong (so it seems). He also had little in terms of pedigree for the specific challenge at hand too.

All very true and in fairness to Moyes..Rodgers got his chance and time and its only really now we are seeing his system and style bare some fruit.

But....

Rodgers always talked a big talk and never subscribed to the negative.never.
Yes at first we couldn't see the talk being backed up with anything but he never dropped a Hodgebomb and always (imo) stayed positive.


The little things like returning the red nets in the goals, and hanging the original Anfield sign may sound miniscule and petty, but he knew he was not seen as the proper pedigree by a lot but he showed he 'got' the club, he 'got' the fans and got the players - shrewd or honest it doesn't matter it worked.

He baited us with his philosophy. We bit and he is delivering thank God.

Moyes (imo) has done nothing to show he 'gets' Man Utd.

Your Airbag

We are away to West Brom Saturday before we face Liverpool at home the following weekend. They are away to Southampton, a tricky fixture.

If they drop points in both, say a draw to Southampton and loss to us, the gap is 6 points with Liverpool having City, Chelsea and Spurs to play albeit at Anfeild. It should give us a chance to be in the race for 4th again.

Everton have West ham at home and then Arsenal the following weekend. Lets home for a loss.

If we can win our next three EPL games we might be back in it. Might.

grames_bond

Macca07 wrote: »

OK, I would agree with you, but how about we go on a god run until the end of the season

Well, we DO need some divine intervention to save this season alright! :pac:

Lord TSC

No

Also, on the Rodger's situation, how was their league position during his bad run verses what they expected.

Cantona's Collars

Agueroooo wrote: »

All very true and in fairness to Moyes..Rodgers got his chance and time and its only really now we are seeing his system and style bare some fruit.

But....

Rodgers always talked a big talk and never subscribed to the negative.never.
Yes at first we couldn't see the talk being backed up with anything but he never dropped a Hodgebomb and always (imo) stayed positive.


The little things like returning the red nets in the goals, and hanging the original Anfield sign may sound miniscule and petty, but he knew he was not seen as the proper pedigree by a lot but he showed he 'got' the club, he 'got' the fans and got the players - shrewd or honest it doesn't matter it worked.

He baited us with his philosophy. We bit and he is delivering thank God.

Moyes (imo) has done nothing to show he 'gets' Man Utd.

Rodgers philosophy has changed from when he first joined Liverpool,I remember ye going nuts as the ball was passed endlessly & aimlessly around but at least he stuck to his guns.Now his game is more like United in the '90s were,high tempo & lightening attacks.He has realised that keeping the ball for the sake of it isn't everything & won't always win you games.
Fair enough ye hadn't the heights to fall from that United have but realistically Liverpool were staring in to the abyss of becoming another Aston Villa,that was a real prospect.
As you said,he never used the type of language Moyes is currently using,even if it had all gone tits up for Rodgers at least he could say he stuck to his guns and had a firm belief in his philosophy,Moyes has yet to do that at United.
At the minute he resembles a guy who got the job of feeding the Lions in the zoo,he likes it but is always nervous doing it.

bullvine

No

a 365 said earlier.. Moyes is the type who test drives a ferrari and comes back telling you the brakes are good..

Pro. F

No

inforfun wrote: »

And yes, Pelle

2 weeks ago at 1-1 last minute at NAC, Feyenoord got denied a penalty while having had one awarded against them for the exact same situation earlier in the match.

Last week at Twente, the GK should have been sent off and a penalty for Feyenoord in the 3rd minute, not given.
Last minute, 2-1 up, shot on the Feyenoord goal and a Twente attacker in off side position, has to jump up to avoid the ball but the goal is given because that attacker wasnt interfering.

So that is 4 points gone in 2 weeks by terrible refereeing. I kind of understood his reaction. In South America that referee probably would have had to run for his life if he pulled this off.

I saw that Twente game. I didn't see the penalty shout at the start, but the ending with that offside goal was head wrecking.

While you're here I'll ask you another question if that's okay. What do you think of Vilhena and Clasie? Clasie looks very tidy on the ball to me, but a bit mad. Vilhena looks to have a bit of everything, but I haven't seen him on the ball enough yet to get a better read on him.

Julez

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Only 1 team in 21 years years has come from 2 goals down if ITV were right the other night.

Yeah, but we're breaking all kinds of records this year!

Jimmy Iovine

Evra has been nominated as one of the players of the month for United. Lol.

Macca07

It's a hypothetical question. Besides saying it won't happen, could ye try and answer it.

I personally don't care if we beat City, Pool and progress in the CL, because we could easily do all three. If the players can't motivate themselves for these games, there's a lot more wrong at the club than Moyes.

I want Moyes gone from the way we have been playing all season, it's been shocking, and saying that the players aren't good enough is a cop out. If the players weren't good enough, they should have been replaced before the season started.

There is no plain tactic other than crossing the ball, no link play between RvP and Rooney, players like Cleverly and Valencia constantly getting a run when it's clear to anyone and everyone that they're not good enough to be starting for United. I am beginning to wonder what is done in training week in week out because it's certainly not on tactics, or passing the ball.

Agueroooo

zerks wrote: »

Rodgers philosophy has changed from when he first joined Liverpool,I remember ye going nuts as the ball was passed endlessly & aimlessly around but at least he stuck to his guns.Now his game is more like United in the '90s were,high tempo & lightening attacks.He has realised that keeping the ball for the sake of it isn't everything & won't always win you games.
As you said,he never used the type of language Moyes is currently using,even if it had all gone tits up for Rodgers at least he could say he stuck to his guns and had a firm belief in his philosophy,Moyes has yet to do that at United.
At the minute he resembles a guy who got the job of feeding the Lions in the zoo,he likes it but is always nervous doing it.

Rodgers philosophy is still intact but he has adapted his system and style cause frankly he ain't got the calibre of player to put it in full swing.
our possesion stats are a good bit down on last season and our results are up..shows he has adapted.
but dont get me wrong he is no Oracle and is still learning on the job.

but the likes of AVB was shown to be inflexible in his philosophy/system and ultimately fell on his sword.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Evra has been nominated as one of the players of the month for United. Lol.

That

says

it

all

folks

Thecon21

No

irishfeen wrote: »

I think a loss to Liverpool, out of CL & a loss to City and he will be a dead man walking - hopefully from my point of view it doesn't happen.

Are you saying that if United lost all three of those games, you hope Moyes isn't sacked?

Cantona's Collars

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Only 1 team in 21 years years has come from 2 goals down if ITV were right the other night.

I would be just small bit optimist if it was 4-2 as we have away goals. I think they will score.

1983/84 was the last time we did it,against Barca.

irishfeen

Thecon21 wrote: »

Are you saying that if United lost all three of those games, you hope Moyes isn't sacked?

I have said it about 1000 times on here now - I'll give him until Christmas.

K-9

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Also, on the Rodger's situation, how was their league position during his bad run verses what they expected.

Probably a bit worse after the first 5/6 games, but consistent, gradual improvement after that, with the odd infuriating result, to be expected tbh.

A big indicator is, there's a few who do the stat on the last 38 PL games, that's constantly improved under him, it's 78 points now IIRC. He's exceeding expectations and even his own targets.

The_Kew_Tour

No

zerks wrote: »

1983/84 was the last time we did it,against Barca.

Few relatives were at that game.

They still never shut up about it:pac:

SlickRic

Pighead wrote: »

Quickly adapted? Eh you might want to take a look back at the Liverpool thread from this time last year. Early Feb and Rodgers had been in the job the same length of time as Moyes. He had lost an FA Cup to Oldham and a home tie against West Brom in the space of two weeks. The knives were very much out for him.

not that many knives were out.

he also wasn't managing the Premier League champions, who should have a nailed-on winning mentality.

Rodgers started with 2 points in 5 matches (including matches against City, United and Arsenal) and has pretty much had Liverpool constantly improving results-wise since then. Moyes took over the reigning champions and has made them worse in terms of attractiveness of football, results and even expectations. The comparison is really stupid. Moyes (leaving aside the volatility of the first 3-4 matches) has had United on the same PPG all season despite spending £60 million. The "it's only..." and "x is back soon..." graphic really sums it up brilliantly.
I said before I found it baffling that a United fan would think Moyes is the man for the job and pretty much every match reinforces that for me.

NoviGlitzko

Some websites are reporting that Moyes has 12 games to save his job. Probably a load of bull but who knows.

K-9

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Consistently out performed other teams on similar budgets. It's a simple concept. You are saying that he did a top class job at Everton because he was on a small budget yet you are not comparing his budget to the other teams he was competing against. You are even ignoring wages completely and talking about players that were sold after he left the club.

All you have is an impression that he did a good job at Everton, you haven't actually looked into it or thought about it past the first level of complexity. I'm in the same boat of not knowing all the relevant details, but I hold my hands up to that lack of knowledge and don't take the impressions we have as a certain truth.

English Premier League Biggest Spenders in the Last Decade

His record at Everton shouldn't even be in doubt, I thought he might have spent a bit more but it's 10th and by a considerable margin. To be battling Liverpool and Spurs regularly on a third or a quarter of their budget was a remarkable achievement. Villa, Sunderland and Newcastle also spent considerably more.

He also did that on a very limited budget, largely selling to buy.

Wage bill was 10th:
Premier League finances: the full club-by-club breakdown and verdict | David Conn | Football | theguardian.com

So it would seem he was defying the stat that the wage bill usually determines league position. Everton should be a mid table team, not battling for 4th.

NoviGlitzko

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

Some websites are reporting that Moyes has 12 games to save his job. Probably a load of bull but who knows.

Happens to be the number of matches left in the season. Load of rubbish.

Pighead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The comparison is really stupid. Moyes (leaving aside the volatility of the first 3-4 matches) has had United on the same PPG all season despite spending £60 million.

How many games in total have that £60m worth of talent played for him? Another reason why the man should get more time.

Mikeyt086

No

Next 5 games:

West Brom away. Should win.
Liverpool home. Major doubts.
Olympiakos home. Major doubts.
West Ham away. Major doubts.
Man City away. Major doubts.

It's only going to get worse imo.

bangkok

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

That

says

it

all

folks

I think evra has done well last few games, consistently our best attacker.... I know he is a defender but at least he is trying very hard unlike some of the other players