Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Rayne Wooney

Moyes will get the summer to build his team even if he doesn't get 4th IMO, this season will be the wakeup call, the midfield situation is one of the worst I've ever seen at a top club, the real weak links in defence need to be axed and competition for the others brought in, players who aren't good enough need to be sold, it's the clubs fault for neglecting it for so long and it probably needed a wakeup call like this before it was really rectified.

Moyes has stuck mainly with what Fergie was doing last season, we haven't got the results like we did last season, why Moyes hasn't changed it is really up for debate. I'm leaning towards it being a case of the way we have been playing is the best we can with the players that have been available, we've had terrible terrible luck with injuries, names being bandied about Klopp, Simeone not one of them could implement their style with the current United players.

Do I think if we had a world class midfield duo we'd be challenging for top spot? Absolutely, it's the root of our problems and has been for a few years, you can't play the passing and fluid attacking brand of football without these players.

Fellaini coming back and Carrick getting some form will improve the football, not enough to shout from the rooftops but it will be a reasonably solid foundation for the attacking players to work off, hopefully it will be enough to challenge for 4th right until the end and (fingers and toes crossed) just about pip it when the last game is played.

Then comes the summer, it's shaping up to be one of the biggest and incredibly important transfer windows we've had.

BloodBath

No

It's going to big alright. At least 5 players out and in.

Not getting top 4 could be drastic on who we can be bring in though. The money seems to be there to spend big at least.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Jokes aside they are going to be crucial.

Rooney, RVP, Mata, Fellaini will hopefully get some serious game time together and hopefully give us more control.

I know the top three played away to Stoke the other day but, and at the risk of bringing a sh1tstorm down on myself, there were some good points to take from the match

• 62% possession.
• 347 completed passes (vs 177)
• 147 attacking 3rd passes, vs 78
• 19 shots.
• fouled off the pitch (18 given for; no red card for what looked like a clear decision).
• 1 fluke deflected goal.
• 1 worldy strike from Charlie "bloody" Adam.
• 2 CB injuries before half time.
• Amazing Begovic save at the death.
• Having to play football in Stoke in those conditions.

I'm not blaming bad luck here as we were wasteful. I'm just highlighting some stats to show that the game could have gone our way on another day.


We only have the UCL plus the league left so we need to try and get as settled a first 11 as we possibly can from here until the final day of the season. We have a good chance if we do.


Am I right in saying that was the first loss this season in a game that Rooney and RVP started together this season?

having watched the game again it was maybe or best performance in defeat. ain't saying much but

we created chances that we did not take.

Mata created chances to players that were poorly washed out

RVP would have buried another chance had he been match sharp.

Rooney on another day might have hit a couple.

so after all the doom and gloom I'm bit more optimistic.

A fit Carrick Fellaini Vidic along with Mata and RVP getting more match fitness will see improvement in performance and results hopefully.

Nalz

No

Scary stat, 22 games in and west brom are one pint from the relegation zone and have lost only one game more than us.

Doesn't mean much in the long run but scary when you think about it!

IncognitoMan

No

Trilla wrote: »

Scary stat, 22 games in and west brom are one pint from the relegation zone and have lost only one game more than us.

Doesn't mean much in the long run but scary when you think about it!

Were they out drinking with cleverley and welbeck? :eek:

Its All Wright

Moyes & Neville are currently at the Olympiacos match. Moyes does some traveling around europe, cant question his commitment anyway.

Blatter

No

I wouldn't be pinning anything on that Stoke result at all. There was certainly a lot of factors that went against Moyes that were outside his control. Every team loses games like that now and again, that's football.

What is far more worrying is the performance level of the team throughout the season. They have played like a 7th place team and have the results to match with zero signs of improvement.

It is way too simplistic to put the majority of our problems down to central midfield. The midfield has been somewhat dysfunctional for years now, yet the team has always challenged for the league as the defense and forward line generally functioned very well.

The problem now is that the defense, midfield and forwards (ie. the whole team) is dysfunctional.

I don't think there is much excuse for this on Moyes' part. Smalling, Jones and Evans are all a year more experienced. Vidic is at pretty much the same level Fergie has had to work with for the previous year (which wasn't much time due to injury). Ferdinand has declined a lot (whether he's been managed properly is another question) but the club have enough quality in that position to overcome that. I don't believe you can attribute the team's current defensive woes to Ferdinand or to injuries (Fergie had to deal with lots of them too)

In attack, the team has declined dramatically. Lots put this down to van Persie's injuries, yet ignore the forward line has been generally dysfunctional when he has played. Also, Fergie had the forward line functioning WAY better than this in 2011/12, without van Perise and with Welbeck & Hernandez 2 years younger (less developed). Remember that team finished on 89 points that season and had significantly less talent than the current squad. (We have since added van Persie, Kagawa, Fellaini and Mata)

So in short, I believe people are oversimplifying things way to much by putting our slump down to missing key players like van Persie and Carrick (the midfield has been very dysfunctional when he has played this season too). Yes, if they had been fit more often the club would have picked up some more points but I do not believe their absence or the relatively weak CM are the key reasons for the team's overall decline. There is something far more fundamentally wrong with how the team is being set up and instructed to play IMO and the manager must take the fall for that.

The_Kew_Tour

No

in fairness nobody is saying we will turn Bayern all of sudden.

its obvious to everyone that management has to be blamed.

but lets not delude us fans into thinking missing key players has only had minor impact.

newballsplease

Only for SAF saying in his farewell speech that it was Utds fans job now to support their new manager.... The fans would have been calling for his head well by this stage.
Feel sorry for Moyes, but his lack of tactics and poor decisions show hes not fit to run a club this size,nor his backroom team.

The_Kew_Tour

No

newballsplease wrote: »

Only for SAF saying in his farewell speech that it was Utds fans job now to support their new manager.... The fans would have been calling for his head well by this stage.
Feel sorry for Moyes, but his lack of tactics and poor decisions show hes not fit to run a club this size,nor his backroom team.

You're probably right on speech to certain degree anyway.

Lord TSC

No

People look at that speech...I think Fergie meant "expect to be 3rd or 4th". I genuinely cannot imagine he thought we would have slumped as badly as we have this season...

Kerrydude1981

No

Just seen this,

http://www.independent.ie/sport/off-the-ball/passing-problem-for-rooney-van-persie-29980238.html

Rayne Wooney

Manager will get the blame as it's up to him how the team play but people seem to be overlooking the possibility that it's the best we can do at the moment

I'd like to hear what people realistically want him to do differently to help us play better football and get results.

Headshot

No

How anyone can say he should get a summer to rebuild the team even if they dont get 4th is talking some load of nonsense

He has missed out on the CL spot with the previous winners of the PL, that takes some ****ing doing

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Manager will get the blame as it's up to him how the team play but people seem to be overlooking the possibility that it's the best we can do at the moment

I'd like to hear what people realistically want him to do differently to help us play better football and get results.

He cant do anything, this is Moyes style.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Headshot wrote: »

How anyone can say he should get a summer to rebuild the team even if they dont get 4th is talking some load of nonsense

He has missed out on the CL spot with the previous winners of the PL, that takes some ****ing doing

+1

we have some poor and some overrated players but we don't have a squad of them.

We still have 4-5 world class players that would walk onto most teams.

Headshot

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

+1

we have some poor and some overrated players but we don't have a squad of them.

We still have 4-5 world class players that would walk onto most teams.

We have way better individual players than Pool, infact only one player from their team would walk into our team (wouldnt want him near the team tbh)

This team is so so much better than what happening now and this has do come back to the manager imo

Al Capwned

5.....
4.....
3.....
2.....

:pac:

bullvine

No

Headshot wrote: »

We have way better individual players than Pool, infact only one player from their team would walk into our team (wouldnt want him near the team tbh)

This team is so so much better than what happening now and this has do come back to the manager imo

Think about it, United have probably a better first 11 than Chelsea at the moment but in Typical Mourinho style he gets the best out of them. Depressing

The_Kew_Tour

No

Headshot wrote: »

We have way better individual players than Pool, infact only one player from their team would walk into our team (wouldnt want him near the team tbh)

This team is so so much better than what happening now and this has do come back to the manager imo

I would put it down to rough estimate of

70% management fault
20% injuries
10% players

injuries to key players have cost us 3-6 points imo. now people will argue that other teams miss key payers but I'm taking that into account.

Vic Vinegar

bullvine wrote: »

Think about it, United have probably a better first 11 than Chelsea at the moment

No we don't, that's mental.

The_Kew_Tour

No

@blatter

I'm not sure what your getting at.

I pretty much have said what you said bar injuries which all I said cost us few more points.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

in fairness nobody is saying we will turn Bayern all of sudden.

its obvious to everyone that management has to be blamed.

but lets not delude us fans into thinking missing key players has only had minor impact.

Fergie had to deal with key injuries and similarly difficult circumstances too. As alluded to in the above post, take the 11/12 season as an example.

-Vidic, Rafael, Cleverley, Anderson and Fletcher all missed almost the entire season through injury.

-Evra and Park declined tragically.

-Hernandez had his worst season on a Utd shirt and we had to rely on a 21 year old developing, goal shy Danny Welbeck to lead the line on front of Rooney for the majority of the season.

-De Gea's first season, some points were lost due to his settling in period.

-No RvP, Kagawa, Fellaini or Mata to call upon.


Yet he still managed to have the team playing in a functional manner the majority of the time and hit 89 points in the league. The performance level was far better then than it is now.


The above might sound like I expect Moyes to be Ferguson, I don't. (Although I do expect him to perform like a top class manager). I'm just attempting to analyse the reasons as to why the team is performing so poorly despite the abundance of quality at the club. IMO too much lenience is given to Moyes because of the injuries/CM situation he has had to deal with and his tactics/management qualities (or lack of) have not gotten enough attention.

Backstreet Moyes

bullvine wrote: »

Think about it, United have probably a better first 11 than Chelsea at the moment but in Typical Mourinho style he gets the best out of them. Depressing

Only DDG, Vidic when fit, RVP and Rooney would get into the Chelsea team.

bullvine

No

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

No we don't, that's mental.

How is it Mental? Is Cech better than Ddg? Terry and Cahill better than Vidic/ Evans, Willian, Hazard, Oscar, Etoo better than Janunzaj, Mata, Rooney and Rvp? Luiz is not better than Carrick, granted Ramires, is better any of our Midfielders and Ivanovic is cracking defender.

Adamcp898

Nuts102 wrote: »

Only DDG, Vidic when fit, RVP and Rooney would get into the Chelsea team.

And Mata obviously.............oh wait :pac:

Lord TSC

No

The question was asked of what we'd like to see of Moyes. For me, what I'd most like to see is transition or a vision, or at least a vision beyond "Get it to the byline and hoof it in".

What I'd like to see less of.
* Negative attitudes when we go 1-0 up
* A style of play beyond "hoof it in", especially when it is painfully obvious that tactic isn't working.
* Less moronic press interviews; saying things like "I don't know what we have to do to win" was stupid, but too common a sight post game for Moyes

These are the main things that could be done outside the transfer windows. But being honest, I just think these are the type of things that a manager in the job this time, and a manager with as many years of experience as he has, should be achieving already. And I simply don't think that time will let him improve.

Blatter

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

@blatter

I'm not sure what your getting at.

I pretty much have said what you said bar injuries which all I said cost us few more points.

We are in agreement then. The management of the team has been the fundamental problem with the team this season.



If most of us agree on this, it's pretty illogical to support giving Moyes the Summer to bring his own players in (not saying you do) unless things improve significantly between now and then.

8-10

bullvine wrote: »

Terry and Cahill better than Vidic/ Evans

Yep. I think so. Better full backs too

The_Kew_Tour

No

Blatter wrote: »

We are in agreement then. The management of the team has been the fundamental problem with the team this season.



If most of us agree on this, it's pretty illogical to support giving Moyes the Summer to bring his own players in (not saying you do) unless things improve significantly between now and then.

yep I won't argue with that and pretty much agree.

the only thing that we might disagree on is players injuries and possible loss of points from them.

had we had RVP for games Everton Newcastke and Spurs I think instead of 0 points we would have at least got 2 points.(just giving 1 example)

I would say we have lost 3-6 points because of injuries. I take into account that other teams also suffer injuries but ours seem to be much worse.

Red Crow

Headshot wrote: »

We have way better individual players than Pool, infact only one player from their team would walk into our team (wouldnt want him near the team tbh)

Why would we compare ourselves to Liverpool? They're as irrelevant as ever. If they were in the Champions League this year they would be performing even worse.

I'd certainly hope our level is higher than that of Liverpool tbh. It's taken that squad 3 years to make any sort of a decent attempt at challenging for fourth which is a fairly pathetic effort. We're doing crap this season but we still have a better foundation to sustain success than Liverpool do.

It's hard to believe how poor Moyes has been so far here. Really shocking stuff.

GavRedKing

No

bullvine wrote: »

Think about it, United have probably a better first 11 than Chelsea at the moment but in Typical Mourinho style he gets the best out of them. Depressing

This should go into post of the year, jaysus.

Apart from RVP and Rooney and maybe Carrick the rest of the field is going to be filled with Chelsea players but carry on.

bullvine

No

8-10 wrote: »

Yep. I think so. Better full backs too

ddg > cech
ivanovic and ramires walk into uniteds team

Theres nothing between both sets, two past it centre halfs and two average british ones, chelsea dont have a lb so they have a rb playing there, maybe united could move rafa over instead of evra. Chelsea centre midfield has luiz playin there cause they have so few quality options in there. Matic has not been there long enough to be considered. I would rather uniteds front four than chelsea s personally. but what would I know I am mental..

niallo27

No

Red Crow wrote: »

Why would we compare ourselves to Liverpool? They're as irrelevant as ever. If they were in the Champions League this year they would be performing even worse.

I'd certainly hope our level is higher than that of Liverpool tbh. It's taken that squad 3 years to make any sort of a decent attempt at challenging for fourth which is a fairly pathetic effort. We're doing crap this season but we still have a better foundation to sustain success than Liverpool do.

It's hard to believe how poor Moyes has been so far here. Really shocking stuff.

Liverpool are quiet relevant. I don't know what you mean by 3 years, Rodgers has only been there a year and a half.

bullvine

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

This should go into post of the year, jaysus.

Apart from RVP and Rooney and maybe Carrick the rest of the field is going to be filled with Chelsea players but carry on.

The mighty first 11 thats almost the same as last years that finished how many points behind united

Will I Amnt

No

niallo27 wrote: »

Liverpool are quiet relevant. I don't know what you mean by 3 years, Rodgers has only been there a year and a half.

You missed the one where someone said only 1 Liverpool player would walk into the United team...

Al Capwned

Al Capwned wrote: »

5.....
4.....
3.....
2.....

:pac:

1.....

Boom.


I jest, i jest.

The_Kew_Tour

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

This should go into post of the year, jaysus.

Apart from RVP and Rooney and maybe Carrick the rest of the field is going to be filled with Chelsea players but carry on.

Mata and fit Vidic would too imo.

anything else is fair game
yer FBs are superior.

not huge difference between Cech and DDG .

Its All Wright

On average you need between 68-70 points to finish top 4. We currently have 40 with 14 games to go & 42 points to play for. I think we need 11 more wins to get 4th which from looking at the fixtures i think we'll get starting on Sunday against Fulham. Not much margin for error but we'll do it

Headshot

No

Will I Amnt wrote: »

You missed the one where someone said only 1 Liverpool player would walk into the United team...

Im shocked I got away with that lol

bullvine

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Mata and fit Vidic would too imo.

anything else us fair game.

yer FB are superior.

not huge difference between Cech and DDG .

is cahill better than evans? would you swap Oscar for Januzaj? sorry see what you mean by fair game, thers about 3 or 4 that could be debated

Will I Amnt

No

Headshot wrote: »

Im shocked I got away with that lol

So am I, I'm trying my best here to get someone to pick up on it.
It's a bit boring in here lately :pac:

GavRedKing

No

bullvine wrote: »

The mighty first 11 thats almost the same as last years that finished how many points behind united

You're sounding like a Liverpool fan with your last year malarkey, Utd v Chelsea last years head to head reads as such.

Chelsea
Played 5, W3, D1, L1

If you think Utds XI is so good why are they currently where they are in the league, is it all down to Moyes?

Pyjamarama

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I would say we have lost 3-6 points because of injuries. I take into account that other teams also suffer injuries but ours seem to be much worse.

Everyone always thinks that their team has suffered the worst. Liverpool have been missing their entire back 4 in recent weeks... and had to play an actual Donkey at left back. Everton have been decimated at times and even spurs have been missing multiple defenders at times. All 3 of these teams have squads that pale in comparison the that Moyes has at hand. There is no excuses for him really imo. Sacking the entire back room staff was mental at the time and is surely a big reason for the current issues. Remains his biggest mistake and might cost Utd dearly this season. Tho there's still a LOT of time for it to be turned around.

The_Kew_Tour

No

bullvine wrote: »

is cahill better than evans? would you swap Oscar for Januzaj?

Cahill just edges it. not much between other 2. I would rather Januzaj and think in time he will be better player but as things stand Oscar is doing fine at Chelsea.

keane2097

No

bullvine wrote: »

ddg > cech
ivanovic and ramires walk into uniteds team

Theres nothing between both sets, two past it centre halfs and two average british ones, chelsea dont have a lb so they have a rb playing there, maybe united could move rafa over instead of evra. Chelsea centre midfield has luiz playin there cause they have so few quality options in there. Matic has not been there long enough to be considered. I would rather uniteds front four than chelsea s personally. but what would I know I am mental..

Even Azpilecueta is on a different level to Evra.

keane2097

No

bullvine wrote: »

is cahill better than evans? would you swap Oscar for Januzaj? sorry see what you mean by fair game, thers about 3 or 4 that could be debated

Would anyone actually not swap Oscar for Januzaj!?

GavRedKing

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Mata and fit Vidic would too imo.

anything else is fair game
yer FBs are superior.

not huge difference between Cech and DDG .

The way I see it

Cech
Raf JT Vidic Azp
Ramires Carrick
Willian Oscar Hazard
Rooney

I've left out Mata because he couldnt get a game first off and I've dropped RVP because I think Rooney would be a better fit for that formation as I think hes wasted played behind a CF.

If the formation is 4-4-2 drop Oscar for Rooney and you're sorted.

GSPfan

No

Wow I'm watching the highlights of City v United from 93/94. City go 2 nil up from what can only be described as shockingly bad goalkeeping and also a complete lack of a holding midfielder. Ha.

It's mental. Keane was playing centre mid with Ince and Keane was making runs beyond the strikers leaving the middle of the park empty. The first goal comes from it. Mad how his best attributes actually made United so vulnerable. He defo learned how to get the best of both worlds as he got older.

Schmeichel has had some awful performances and is still one of the best ever.

Kerrydude1981

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

You're sounding like a Liverpool fan with your last year malarkey, Utd v Chelsea last years head to head reads as such.

Chelsea
Played 5, W3, D1, L1

If you think Utds XI is so good why are they currently where they are in the league, is it all down to Moyes?

I think the main reason is Utd haven't got their best XI on the pitch too many times this season.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Everyone always thinks that their team has suffered the worst. Liverpool have been missing their entire back 4 in recent weeks... and had to play an actual Donkey at left back. Everton have been decimated at times and even spurs have been missing multiple defenders at times. All 3 of these teams have squads that pale in comparison the that Moyes has at hand. There is no excuses for him really imo. Sacking the entire back room staff was mental at the time and is surely a big reason for the current issues. Remains his biggest mistake and might cost Utd dearly this season. Tho there's still a LOT of time for it to be turned around.

that's why Liverpool have dropped points to Villa and WBA. when they had pretty decent.back 4 things were fine.