Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

bangkok · 27-02-2014 5:39pm

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Next 5 games:

West Brom away. Should win.
Liverpool home. Major doubts.
Olympiakos home. Major doubts.
West Ham away. Major doubts.
Man City away. Major doubts.

It's only going to get worse imo.

city at home...

Rayne Wooney · 27-02-2014 5:39pm

Your Airbag wrote: »

We are away to West Brom Saturday before we face Liverpool at home the following weekend. They are away to Southampton, a tricky fixture.

If they drop points in both, say a draw to Southampton and loss to us, the gap is 6 points with Liverpool having City, Chelsea and Spurs to play albeit at Anfeild. It should give us a chance to be in the race for 4th again.

Everton have West ham at home and then Arsenal the following weekend. Lets home for a loss.

If we can win our next three EPL games we might be back in it. Might.

We've been saying stuff like this all season and the gap seems only to get bigger

Pro. F · 27-02-2014 5:42pm

No

K-9 wrote: »

English Premier League Biggest Spenders in the Last Decade

His record at Everton shouldn't even be in doubt, I thought he might have spent a bit more but it's 10th and by a considerable margin. To be battling Liverpool and Spurs regularly on a third or a quarter of their budget was a remarkable achievement. Villa, Sunderland and Newcastle also spent considerably more.

He also did that on a very limited budget, largely selling to buy.

Wage bill was 10th:
Premier League finances: the full club-by-club breakdown and verdict | David Conn | Football | theguardian.com

So it would seem he was defying the stat that the wage bill usually determines league position. Everton should be a mid table team, not battling for 4th.

Of course it should have been in doubt. I asked Wayne Rooney for a source on the budget to back up his claim and he didn't have anything for wages, nor a comparison to other teams' transfer spending.

Now you have provided evidence, job done. Now I'm happy to accept he did do a very good job at Everton relative to his budget.

Thecon21 · 27-02-2014 5:45pm

No

It honestly baffles me how a United fan can sit back and watch this season progress as it has and still back the manager, people seem to be ok with the fact our season is over by February, there is nothing wrong with saying we made a mistake and looking elsewhere.

I like Moyes but it is becoming clearer and clearer that he is unable to manage at this level, I'm sure he will do well at another club with lesser expectations but unfortunately United is not the club for him..

v3ttel · 27-02-2014 5:49pm

Macca07 wrote: »

Change the drawn games for wins, and the lost games for draws, and we would have 14 more points, putting us probably third on GD.

While your changing the draws to wins, and the loses to draws, and are in the realms of complete fantasy, why not go the whole hog and change all our results into wins?

Macca07 wrote: »

That's what Fergie would have done with the current squad.

You are saying this with absolute certainty, that the draws and loses against the teams you listed would have been all wins or draws with Fergie. Please grasp how ridiculous that sounds. That wasn't even the case last season, if you just take results from the corresponding fixtures.

There is no doubt the results under Fergie would be better. I don't think many people would dispute that.

However, this logic of substituting loses for draws, etc is completely bizarre. Why not substitute our wins this season at Norwich and Swansea for a Loss and a Draw, as that's what we did last season and may be likely to do under the same manager again?

Macca07 wrote: »

Now it was always going to be impossible to have that standard with another manager, but a world-class manager would have us in the top 4 at least.

I agree with the conclusion, but the path you've taken to reach it is bat-shlt crazy.

2moreMinutes · 27-02-2014 5:49pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Of course it should have been in doubt. I asked Wayne Rooney for a source on the budget to back up his claim and he didn't have anything for wages, nor a comparison to other teams' transfer spending.

Now you have provided evidence, job done. Now I'm happy to accept he did do a very good job at Everton relative to his budget.

Doubting his Everton record without seeing direct evidence says a lot about someone's apparent football knowledge.

27-02-2014 5:50pm

Pighead wrote: »

How many games in total have that £60m worth of talent played for him? Another reason why the man should get more time.

I'll spend £60 million of United's money for no improvement with a 10% commission if they like.
Anyway, Mata's played 5 matches, 2 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss. 1.6 ppg. 1.67 for the season and the 5 matches he's played were the teams currently 20th, 19th, 16th, 15th and 3rd so not exactly the toughest run ever.
Fellaini I'm not bothered right now going back to look at, feel free if you think it'll help your point though.

EDIT: Soccerbase is handy as it turns out:
2-0 win vs Palace. (PL)
4-2 win vs Leverkusen (CL)
4-1 loss vs City. (PL)
2-1 loss vs West Brom. (PL)
1-1 draw vs Shakhtar. (CL)
1-1 draw vs Southampton. (PL)
3-1 win vs Fulham. (PL)
0-0 draw vs Sociedad. (CL)
1-0 win vs Arsenal. (PL)
2-2 draw vs Cardiff. (PL)
1-0 loss vs Everyon. (PL)
2-0 win vs Palace. (PL)

So in the PL it's 1.55 PPG and in the CL 2 draws and a win (1.6 PPG against 3 PPG for the 3 matches he missed) and a yellow card and a red card. Not a lot there to suggest it's been money well spent so far. Not that it's necessarily a reflection on the standard of the two players.

Its All Wright · 27-02-2014 5:55pm

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Next 5 games:

West Brom away. Should win.
Liverpool home. Major doubts.
Olympiakos home. Major doubts.
West Ham away. Major doubts.
Man City away. Major doubts.

It's only going to get worse imo.

If Moyes picks the same 11 for those 5 games & they dont include Ferdinand,Cleverley,Young & Valencia then we will get the results we need. Those players i mentioned are not good enough & should not be used again this year unless there coming on as a sub when were comfortable

Hank Scorpio · 27-02-2014 5:56pm

No

I feel sorry for Moyes but he shouldn't have been given the job in the first place. There's a reason why he never won a trophy at Everton or beat any of the top 4 sides away from home, and luck isn't a factor in that. Man is out of his depth. With Ferguson being so stubborn I feel he`ll be given another season but its blatantly obvious to me at least even with different personnel United are going to continue to struggle under the chosen one.

Blatter · 27-02-2014 6:00pm

No

K-9 wrote: »

English Premier League Biggest Spenders in the Last Decade

His record at Everton shouldn't even be in doubt, I thought he might have spent a bit more but it's 10th and by a considerable margin. To be battling Liverpool and Spurs regularly on a third or a quarter of their budget was a remarkable achievement. Villa, Sunderland and Newcastle also spent considerably more.

He also did that on a very limited budget, largely selling to buy.

Wage bill was 10th:
Premier League finances: the full club-by-club breakdown and verdict | David Conn | Football | theguardian.com

So it would seem he was defying the stat that the wage bill usually determines league position. Everton should be a mid table team, not battling for 4th.

He definitely did a good job at Everton but I think the reasons he managed to compete/finish higher than the clubs you mentioned was also largely down to how horrifically mismanaged those clubs were (to varying degrees at different times) rather than actually making extraordinary use of his own resources.

He made good use of his resources at Everton and did very well relative to expectations but looking back I don't think it was anything special.

All of this is a bit irrelevant anyway if he's not able to make the transition from mid table thinking/management to a consistent winning mentality/management.

SlickRic · 27-02-2014 6:03pm

also, this notion that I've heard peddled that he needs "his own players" before he can get the team playing well is absolute garbage; especially when it's a successful group of players.

it's also such a thin excuse for a man being paid what he's paid, who should be able to get a bunch of very good football players playing to approaching their best.

if a manager takes over at a company, they do not get to overhaul working staff before they're expected to perform at a certain level.

that's grasping at straws I'm afraid.

J. Marston · 27-02-2014 6:08pm

No

That Kagawa video.

Urge to kill...rising....

Blatter · 27-02-2014 6:09pm

No

SlickRic wrote: »

also, this notion that I've heard peddled that he needs "his own players" before he can get the team playing well is absolute garbage; especially when it's a successful group of players.

it's also such a thin excuse for a man being paid what he's paid, who should be able to get a bunch of very good football players playing to approaching their best.

if a manager takes over at a company, they do not get to overhaul working staff before they're expected to perform at a certain level.

that's grasping at straws I'm afraid.

It's interesting how Laurent Blanc, Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti and Tato Martino haven't needed to overhaul the respective clubs they joined in order for them to compete as expected.

There must be something in the water in Manchester. Oh, but Manuel Pellegrini....

Backstreet Moyes · 27-02-2014 6:11pm

bangkok wrote: »

I think evra has done well last few games, consistently our best attacker.... I know he is a defender but at least he is trying very hard unlike some of the other players

Trying hard are you having a laugh he bombs forward and strolls back leaving loads of space. He ignores his main job which is to defend he doesn't try hard enough.

user2011 · 27-02-2014 6:16pm

No

He has to set a standard of play with the players he has at his disposal now. That standard of play if put on a chart only points one way.

FFS, he has built his rep on getting the most out of ordinary players and making them hard to beat, he isn't even get that out of the group of players who have won PL titles some with CL titles. Goes into a game against a Greek side looking not to be beat had 60% possession and they didn't have a clue what to be doing with it. Kinda like the training was defensive work and they totally forgot about the attacking side of things and couldn't do the defending right either.

Kerrydude1981 · 27-02-2014 6:18pm

No

J. Marston wrote: »

That Kagawa video.

Urge to kill...rising....

Same here,IIRC Kagawa said something about players not trusting him at the start last of last season,he was getting into positions but they wouldn't play him the ball because it was too risky of a pass to play

But as we have seen in the video clip of Tuesdays game in some cases he was on his own but still didn't receive the ball.

Pighead · 27-02-2014 6:26pm

Blatter wrote: »

It's interesting how Laurent Blanc, Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti and Tato Martino haven't needed to overhaul the respective clubs they joined in order for them to compete as expected.

There must be something in the water in Manchester. Oh, but Manuel Pellegrini....

I think you're being disingenuous. All of those managers arrived into teams in better shape than the United Moyes walked into.

Yes they won the league last year but that can be considered a minor miracle given the well documented midfield woes.

27-02-2014 6:27pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Imagine playing City of the back of last couple of weeks this weekend.

phew!!!!!!!!

Thank you Sunderland and crap penalty takers.

Up until recently I would have felt the same way as you, and would think 'It gives us more time to get our shít in order for the match'. Now it's at the point where I can't see this stay of execution making one bit of difference. In fact current evidence shows that the longer we have to wait until the game, the worse the squad/team will perform as I have seen nothing but regression lately, that Palace game excepted which was quite obviously a once-off and prick tease for the fans.

The potential battering from City is coming, the sooner we get that game out of the way and the club and fans can deal with whatever implications that result may be bring, the better in my mind.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

There should have been only 1 change from last week and that was Kagawa in for Mata.

The rest picked itself.

It showed a lack of belief in his team that he had to go change it around. It was the last straw for me.

How many people said it when they heard the team that they were changing their predictions. Some were maybe little too confident of winning well, but it become a game where we could win it to a game where we be doing well to get a draw.

All because of Moyes. He did not have to start Cleverley and Valenca and he did. He deserves a lot of flak for it.

+1

After last Saturday's game that team really should have picked itself. Kagawa has gotten games in Europe earlier this season, it was a no-brainer. If he didn't want to play Fellaini, he could have picked Fletcher who was also an infinitely better choice than Cleverley. And leaving Adnan out altogether? Baffling.

I put on a few small bets on Tuesday's game, such was my certainty that with that team out (- Mata, + Kagawa) there was no way United were going to leave Greece without a goal, and maybe a result. Then 7pm Tuesday came, with the teamsheet - Cleverley, Valencia, Young. I didn't even get angry, I laughed out loud for a good 10 seconds and then proceeded to see if I could cancel my bets and get a refund. Never has the hope and confidence been drained out of me so much by a United teamsheet before like it was then.

Some people when they looked at it saw players names, I read the subtext and saw it for what it was, which basically said 'I David Moyes, formerly of sound mind and body, am still not fully sure what I'm doing here, and to be honest I couldn't really give a shíte anymore either'.

Under-performing and unmotivated players is one thing that can be debated about in regards to the amount of fault which lies with Moyes, but the bonkers team selections and insistence on persisting with the tactics that have seen us become potential fodder for anyone in the league, and Europe, is right there and clear for all to see.

A few months ago I thought I was giving Moyes until next Christmas, by now he is making it very hard for me to see him in the role beyond Easter. There is no apparent fight left in the man. His public relations methods and interviews are defeated and uninspired, and now that seems to have rooted itself into the mentality of a decorated champion and battled player like Michael Carrick.

2014 so far; 12 games, 6 unbeaten, 4 tournaments exited. That's counting Top 4 and the current CL, as I can't see us turning it around in the 2nd leg. Not acceptable, not for Manchester United.

Blatter · 27-02-2014 6:32pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

I think you're being disingenuous. All of those managers arrived into teams in better shape than the United Moyes walked into.

Yes they won the league last year but that can be considered a minor miracle given the well documented midfield woes.

I don't think so.

There was plenty of big troubles at some of those clubs. Barcelona for example, had big issues at the back (and still do, but to a lesser extent - Martino has organized them better). He's also had to deal with Messi missing a large chunk of the season and Xavi declining quite a bit further. Yet he still has them competing in a way that was expected.

IMO the problems at United have been magnified far more than they should be to excuse Moyes and his chronic management of the team.

inforfun · 27-02-2014 6:37pm

No

Pro. F wrote: »

I saw that Twente game. I didn't see the penalty shout at the start, but the ending with that offside goal was head wrecking.

While you're here I'll ask you another question if that's okay. What do you think of Vilhena and Clasie? Clasie looks very tidy on the ball to me, but a bit mad. Vilhena looks to have a bit of everything, but I haven't seen him on the ball enough yet to get a better read on him.

I am a big fan of Clasie. Had to fight all through the youth system as they always had doubts about him. Not about his talent but because of his size.
But that also made him the player he is today.
He is one of those players that gets even better when he is surrounded by better players so he can use his passing game even better. He did well on loan at Excelsior a few years ago, came back to Feyenoord, won a place in the first team and is now probably the first one on the team sheet for the first 11.

Not sure what you mean with him being mad at times, he is 21 so yes, he does do things he will not be doing when he is 25/26. He doesnt pick up many cards and i think the more experienced he gets, the less cards he will pick up.
And he is tough. Played out a few games last season after he had dislocated his shoulder on the pitch. And i have been there, that hurts.

Vilhena was the man in the Dutch U17 who won the euro u17 2x in a row. But he develops a bit slower than Depay from PSV who was also in that team.

Could have been sold already but he has his head screwed on properly. Rather has 1st team football at Feyenoord and develop than go to a big team in Europe and have to spend a few years on the bench or in the reserves.

If they choose their next club wise, one where their kind of football suits, they could go far in their careers.

Rayne Wooney · 27-02-2014 6:43pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Consistently out performed other teams on similar budgets. It's a simple concept. You are saying that he did a top class job at Everton because he was on a small budget yet you are not comparing his budget to the other teams he was competing against. You are even ignoring wages completely and talking about players that were sold after he left the club.

All you have is an impression that he did a good job at Everton, you haven't actually looked into it or thought about it past the first level of complexity. I'm in the same boat of not knowing all the relevant details, but I hold my hands up to that lack of knowledge and don't take the impressions we have as a certain truth.

Pighead · 27-02-2014 6:57pm

Blatter wrote: »

I don't think so.

There was plenty of big troubles at some of those clubs. Barcelona for example, had big issues at the back (and still do, but to a lesser extent - Martino has organized them better). He's also had to deal with Messi missing a large chunk of the season and Xavi declining quite a bit further. Yet he still has them competing in a way that was expected.

IMO the problems at United have been magnified far more than they should be to excuse Moyes and his chronic management of the team.

I think if you asked any manager in the world to choose working with the Barca or Utd squads at the start of this season they'd nearly all pick Barca. They were in a much better place than Utd.

Blatter · 27-02-2014 7:01pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

I think if you asked any manager in the world to choose working with the Barca or Utd squads at the start of this season they'd nearly all pick Barca. They were in a much better place than Utd.

It's all relative.

Ok, lets rewind back to the Summer and compare United's squad with Chelsea's.

Could you honestly say that United had much bigger problems than Chelsea?

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 7:05pm

No

United squad from last summer was pretty decent. What it lacked was 2 real good CM for the first team.

In hindsight it needed a LB but at the time even I said it was not priority although a young player would be welcome.

No way should that squad now be out of running for top 4.

Honestly think I could not do a worse job then Moyes. I mean that seriously to certain degree.;)

K-9 · 27-02-2014 7:12pm

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Of course it should have been in doubt. I asked Wayne Rooney for a source on the budget to back up his claim and he didn't have anything for wages, nor a comparison to other teams' transfer spending.

Now you have provided evidence, job done. Now I'm happy to accept he did do a very good job at Everton relative to his budget.

It's isn't the first, second time it has come up. I'm surprised at how low the wage budget was tbh.

Blatter wrote: »

He definitely did a good job at Everton but I think the reasons he managed to compete/finish higher than the clubs you mentioned was also largely down to how horrifically mismanaged those clubs were (to varying degrees at different times) rather than actually making extraordinary use of his own resources.

He made good use of his resources at Everton and did very well relative to expectations but looking back I don't think it was anything special.

All of this is a bit irrelevant anyway if he's not able to make the transition from mid table thinking/management to a consistent winning mentality/management.

Yep, Liverpool had their problems, Sunderland and Villa cut back as well.

He seems a good manager with money which would go down well with the Glazers, Fergie hardly spent a fortune recently.

But you've hit the nail on the head, Hodgson and Moyes are good managers, just not at a high enough level for United. It needs more than a good transfer record with peanuts, or just believing things will turn around because it's United. Moyes hasn't shown anything in his time to have any faith in him, and that gets transferred to the players as well, it would be naive to think it doesn't.

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 7:13pm

No

http://m.skysports.com/article/football/yourclub/9187461?compid=263&teamid=210

Oh Dear Gary.............

Man United's players are in more danger of getting the chop than David Moyes, says Gary Neville

Gary Neville says the Manchester United players will be in more danger of getting the chop than manager David Moyes.

Neville joined Geoff Sheeves on this week's Champions League Podcast where he reiterated that Moyes will have the backing of the board despite the under-par results this season.

"I said earlier on in the season the players will be in more danger than the manager," said the former United captain. "The way in which Manchester United have always worked is to give the manager time and I believe in that philosophy.

"Managers are getting sacked after 70 days but to even think of sacking a manager after seven months is nonsense, so I think [United] will support Moyes.

"You look at the people on the board, and we're talking about the Glazer family and whether they've ever been put in this position before.

"But you look at the likes of David Gill, Sir Bobby Charlton, Sir Alex Ferguson - who are obviously the main football people at Manchester United - and I don't think for one second it will be crossing their minds at this moment in time.

"The players will be more at threat and feeling nervous about whether they are part of the future."

Neville's comments come off the back of another disappointing week for United who were beaten 2-0 by Olympiakos in the first-leg, last-16 fixture, but he insists that his former club will stand by Moyes and offer him money to develop his squad over the summer.

Neville added: "I think Ed Woodwood said as part of his shareholder announcement a couple of weeks ago that the money would be there for Moyes to invest in the summer.

"I truly believe Moyes will get given the opportunity at Manchester United to complete his work.

"I've said myself, two to three years is the time that should be given to a manager for him to try and do a piece of work - there will be people who will disagree with that but that's my opinion and you won't change that.

"Sir Alex Ferguson got given two to three years and now people turn around and say that's 25 years ago, well alright, what's changed? Are we saying managers can't get given time now?

"I don't know what the board are going to do but my view of that club, which is the way they always speak and the way they've always behaved, is that managers get given time - Ron Atkinson gets given time, Dave Sexton gets given time, Sir Alex Ferguson gets given time.

"A lot of the same people are still there - Sir Bobby Charlton, Martin Edwards is still around the club.

"The people who are there believe in the philosophy around the club and have been at United for many, many years and that's why they've given David Moyes a six-year contract.

"I have to say at another football club, whether it be Chelsea - we saw with Andre Villas-Boas who was sacked - or Tottenham, Moyes would be in a lot more trouble.

"But he's at the club that you'd say he was probably safest, where the club will stand by him - think about Sir Alex Ferguson, he's public on his philosophy around giving people time.

"It probably jars against what most clubs are doing these days but, that's the Manchester United way and always has been and they would have to change that philosophy.

"In terms of an acceptable season it's gone because Manchester United have to win a trophy - that's the barometer of measuring Manchester United's seasons.

"It's not acceptable that Manchester United don't win a trophy, it's not been acceptable for 25 years, it's not going to change this year."

shadowcomplex · 27-02-2014 7:14pm

No

I'm wondering if we got a proper top class coach would we really need to make as many changes to the first team as some people think we need?

Dea-Gea

Raf--Jones/Evans/Smalling-New CB---New Left Back

Fellaini-new CM(Hopefully Tony Kroos)----

Mata

Rooney

Kagawa/Januzai---

RVP/Rooney

Thats only 3 players there,Does that 4-2-3-1 System really work with 3 Number 10's playing behind a lone striker really work? Should Mata , Rooney and Kagawa all be able to play together?

Pighead · 27-02-2014 7:14pm

Blatter wrote: »

It's all relative.

Ok, lets rewind back to the Summer and compare United's squad with Chelsea's.

Could you honestly say that United had much bigger problems than Chelsea?

It's all relative? What does that even mean?

I started this conversation by saying that Moyes walked into a tough job compared to Martino etc. You disagreed.

I then said most managers would pick Barca team over Utd team and you say 'it's all relative'. It's a yes or no answer. No need to complicate matters.

As for the Chelsea point I think on paper Utd's squad look ok in comparison but there have been a lot more injuries for Moyes to deal with this season. No Nani, Van Persie, struggling to pair the same centre back pairing for any length of time. Fellaini injury. Rafael of late. Moyes has made mistakes but he has also had a fair share of bad luck.

MagicIRL · 27-02-2014 7:15pm

No

This infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2xSQU1Avw

Dont be at yourself · 27-02-2014 7:20pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

http://m.skysports.com/article/football/yourclub/9187461?compid=263&teamid=210

Oh Dear Gary.............

No point listening to Gary Neville, considering his brother's involvement with the Moyes regime.

Lord TSC · 27-02-2014 7:23pm

No

I really like Gary, and think he's usually a great, great pundit. And last year, he seemed to work really hard to avoid being biased towards United.

But by God, does he have blinkers on this year. I feel Moyes could defecate (literally, as opposed to the metaphorical dump he's already taking) on the OT pitch, and Gary would be attacking the players....

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 7:25pm

No

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

No point listening to Gary Neville, considering his brother's involvement with the Moyes regime.

You're right to degree, but his use of the word "philosophy" bugs the living crap out of me.

K-9 · 27-02-2014 7:26pm

No

SlickRic wrote: »

also, this notion that I've heard peddled that he needs "his own players" before he can get the team playing well is absolute garbage; especially when it's a successful group of players.

it's also such a thin excuse for a man being paid what he's paid, who should be able to get a bunch of very good football players playing to approaching their best.

if a manager takes over at a company, they do not get to overhaul working staff before they're expected to perform at a certain level.

that's grasping at straws I'm afraid.

FFS Rodgers made Downing look half decent, improved Henderson and Flanagan immeasurably and even Cissokho looks like a footballer. When you consider what Moyes has to work it's a damning indictment, the guy is supposed to be a good coach.

Rubber_Soul · 27-02-2014 7:26pm

No

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

No point listening to Gary Neville, considering his brother's involvement with the Moyes regime.

I initially thought the same re. Neville but seems like most of the ex pros that are pundits agree with him.

shadowcomplex · 27-02-2014 7:27pm

No

MagicIRL wrote: »

This infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2xSQU1Avw

This is how its done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjcFeTOp3FE

Kerrydude1981 · 27-02-2014 7:28pm

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

http://m.skysports.com/article/football/yourclub/9187461?compid=263&teamid=210

Oh Dear Gary.............

Neville just towing the line,it would be refreshing if former players came out and said what they really felt about what is going on at Utd this season.

Of the Utd players that are now pundits Keano is the only one who would be capable of doing this,the rest are still in fear of SAF even though he is no longer manager of the club.

And if Neville was asked about another club that was was having problems he wouldn't be long giving his thoughts on it,but when it comes to Utd time to throw out the usual lines,"give him time"

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 7:32pm

No

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Neville just towing the line,it would be refreshing if former players came out and said what they really felt about what is going on at Utd this season.

Of the Utd players that are now pundits Keano is the only one who would be capable of doing this,the rest are still in fear of SAF even though he is no longer manager of the club.

And if Neville was asked about another club that was was having problems he wouldn't be long giving his thoughts on it,but when it comes to Utd time to throw out the usual lines,"give him time"

Keanes big mouth sometimes does him no favours but he was 100% right the other night.

Looking at Kagawa there you could not name another player on field doing that, looking for the ball.

Sad thing is he is the one leaving.

Blatter · 27-02-2014 7:37pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

It's all relative? What does that even mean?

I started this conversation by saying that Moyes walked into a tough job compared to Martino etc. You disagreed.

I then said most managers would pick Barca team over Utd team and you say 'it's all relative'. It's a yes or no answer. No need to complicate matters.

Barcelona are a better team than United and were last season.

Both had new managers, both had issues with their squads.

Martino has kept Barcelona competing to a similar standard in comparison to last season despite the issues. He is performing at a reasonable level relative to expectations. The issues have not been magnified as a result.

Moyes, on the other hand, does not have United competing to anywhere near the same standard as last season. His performance level is nowhere near a reasonable level relative to expectations. The 'issues' he's had to deal with, are imo, being completely blown out of proportion and do not come close to explaining the results of the team.

As for the Chelsea point I think on paper Utd's squad look ok in comparison but there have been a lot more injuries for Moyes to deal with this season. No Nani, Van Persie, struggling to pair the same centre back pairing for any length of time. Fellaini injury. Rafael of late. Moyes has made mistakes but he has also had a fair share of bad luck.

Well Mourinho has worked with no top level striker (or one even approaching top level). He's had to deal with a declining Ashley Cole, Terry a year older and a central midfield that's not all that better than United's on paper (before Matic).

I could only imagine if Moyes was at Chelsea and had them 7th, I'd be pretty certain that those issues would've been magnified by plenty of fans and media outlets in an attempt to excuse his poor management. They'd be wrong - he just would not being getting anything like the best out of the players he'd have had available to him, just like what's happened at United.

Kerrydude1981 · 27-02-2014 7:37pm

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Keanes big mouth sometimes does him no favours but he was 100% right the other night.

Looking at Kagawa there you could not name another player on field doing that, looking for the ball.

Sad thing is he is the one leaving.

As I said the last night Kagawa must be just too unpredictable for Moyes,Moyes doesn't do unpredictable.

Rubber_Soul · 27-02-2014 7:39pm

No

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Of the Utd players that are now pundits Keano is the only one who would be capable of doing this,the rest are still in fear of SAF even though he is no longer manager of the club.

Keane refused to blame Moyes the other night too.

J. Marston · 27-02-2014 7:39pm

No

Oh feck off, Neville. He'd see United drop to the Championship under Moyes and still prattle on about he needs time because it's "United's philosophy".

The sooner we get rid Moyes, the better. Not only because we'll finally be rid of him but hopefully rid of those romantic clichés about The United Way and philosophies and the other nonsense that goes along with that.

Pighead · 27-02-2014 7:48pm

Blatter wrote: »

Barcelona are a better team than United and were last season.

Both had new managers, both had issues with their squads.

Martino has kept Barcelona competing to a similar standard in comparison to last season despite the issues. He is performing at a reasonable level relative to expectations. The issues have not been magnified as a result.

Moyes, on the other hand, does not have United competing to anywhere near the same standard as last season. His performance level is nowhere near a reasonable level relative to expectations. The 'issues' he's had to deal with, are imo, being completely blown out of proportion and do not come close to explaining the results of the team.

Well Mourinho has had to work with no top level striker (or one even approaching top level). He's had to deal with a declining Ashley Cole, Terry a year older and a central midfield that's not all that better than United's on paper (before Matic).

I could only imagine if Moyes was at Chelsea and had them 7th, I'd be pretty certain that those issues would've been magnified by plenty of fans and media outlets in an attempt to excuse his poor management.

Again you leave out vital pieces of the argument. Cole declining? No probs for Jose, he has an excellent Spanish left back to immediately carry on the baton. Terry a year older? That doesn't mean anything given he's playing better this year than last. I also think their midfield options while not fantastic are better than ours.

Barring absolute calamity I could never ever advocate sacking a manager this soon into his term. Moyes bad start has put huge pressure on him to deliver this summer in the transfer window and at the start of next season. He's made that bed himself but he should be allowed try and get himself out of this hole.

Blatter · 27-02-2014 7:54pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

Again you leave out vital pieces of the argument. Cole declining? No probs for Jose, he has an excellent Spanish left back to immediately carry on the baton. Terry a year older? That doesn't mean anything given he's playing better this year than last. I also think their midfield options while not fantastic are better than ours.

Barring absolute calamity I could never ever advocate sacking a manager this soon into his term. Moyes bad start has put huge pressure on him to deliver this summer in the transfer window and at the start of next season. He's made that bed himself but he should be allowed try and get himself out of this hole.

Afaik he's predominately a right back that Jose has converted into a left back. Not sure if he'll be a long term presence there but Jose has definitely shown great management to deal with that situation.

A large part of the reason as to why Terry is playing much better than the last few seasons is Mourinho, he has a habit of getting the best out of players he has available to him - like all top level managers do!

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 7:54pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

Barring absolute calamity

But it is a calamity.

irishfeen · 27-02-2014 7:55pm

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

As I said the last night Kagawa must be just too unpredictable for Moyes,Moyes doesn't do unpredictable.

Obviously SAF didn't either so...

Pighead · 27-02-2014 8:03pm

Blatter wrote: »

Afaik he's predominately a right back that Jose has converted into a left back. Not sure if he'll be a long term presence there but Jose has definitely shown great management to deal with that situation.

A large part of the reason as to why Terry is playing much better than the last few seasons is Mourinho, he has a habit of getting the best out of players he has available to him - like all top level managers do!

I am not disagreeing with you about Jose's talents as a manager. He's clearly one of the top managers in the game. But in my opinion he walked into a better situation at Chelsea than Moyes did at Utd.

Mr.Nice Guy · 27-02-2014 8:19pm

Nice to see Gary Neville speaking sense and telling it like it is. He's one of the most knowledgeable pundits in the game.

I see the hysteria around here is such that now Neville is being pilloried and having his integrity called into question.

Of course Keane the other night also blasted the players and didn't suggest Moyes should be sacked. He can't be accused of towing the line since he's hardly likely to want to defend the chap that Fergie selected as his successor.

The reality is no ex-United player has come out and called on Moyes to be sacked.

He'll be given more time and rightly so.

Pighead · 27-02-2014 8:25pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But it is a calamity.

No it's not. Relegation would be a calamity. A bottom half finish could probably be considered a calamity. A 5th/6th place finish while very disappointing cannot be described as a calamity.

The_Kew_Tour · 27-02-2014 8:28pm

No

Pighead wrote: »

No it's not. Relegation would be a calamity. A bottom half finish could probably be considered a calamity. A 5th/6th place finish while very disappointing cannot be described as a calamity.

For a team to go from Champions to 7th as things stand is as bad as it gets.

Out of both domestic cups in horrid performances and even embarrassed by worst team left standing in Europe(bar ourselves now)

Pighead · 27-02-2014 8:31pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

For a team to go from Champions to 7th as things stand is as bad as it gets.

Out of both domestic cups in horrid performances and even embarrassed by worst team left standing in Europe(bar ourselves now)

The season isn't over yet. You can't say they've gone from Champions to 7th when the season is still underway. Especially given the fact they are actually 6th. And that Champions League tie is far from over. If Utd finish 5th and get to the quarter finals of the Champs League would you still call it a calamity?

Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

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