Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Pighead

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

We have been easily the 2nd best team against

Livepool
City
Chelsea
Spurs
Everton
Swansea cup
Sunderland in lc
WBA
Newcastle
Southampton

City destroyed us
So have greeks
Chelsea were better then us easily. Scoreline flattered me bollocks
Spurs destroyed our game at OT
Everton also gave us a lesson at OT

Plus we were haunted to beat Hull and Norwich over christmas

I'm not going to go through those gamers one by one but the fact you think we were 'easily the second best against Sunderland in the League Cup' tells me everything I need to know about your ability to assess games.

Whatsisname

No

Hernandez on twitter

Pro. F

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Who says just because I didn't write up a detailed summary of the last 12 years in my post that all I have is an impression and I haven't actually looked into it? I didn't know it was a requirement.

Net Spend since 2002
Everton|Villa|Newcastle|Spurs|Liverpool
35m|138m|65m|239m|280m


Avg spend per season since 2002
Everton|Villa|Newcastle|Spurs|Liverpool
3.2m|12.5m|5.9m|21.7m|25m


Avg league position since 2002
Everton|Villa|Newcastle|Spurs|Liverpool
8th|11th|11th|7th|5th


Wage Bill in 2012/2013
Everton|Villa|Newcastle|Spurs|Liverpool
63m|70m|64m|90m|119m


*all figures in £


I only included Fellaini, Jelavic and Anichebe in as an interesting stat. That if he had been around for their sale his net spend would have been around -1m£, so he basically would have made money from nothing, spending less on transfers coming in than going out in his 11 years. Which is an insane thought

Edit: and I wouldn't even call them similar budget teams, Villa had almost 4 times the budget per season, Newcastle almost 2 times, Liverpool almost 8 times, and Spurs 7 times the budget.

You are lying, you did not have all the information when I first asked you. I asked you about the wage+transfer budget and you said:

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I haven't got the wages and I doubt anybody will but I personally think he would have had them under control.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

You are lying, you did not have all the information when I first asked you. I asked you about the wage+transfer budget and you said:

You were asking for wages over the 11 year period which I and I doubt anybody else would have

Last years is probably the best you can get

And it wasn't even clear in your original post what you were asking me to do, so don't know where you got the lying part from. It was only after your second post I could see you wanted a comparison with other clubs

Pro. F wrote: »

Have you any solid evidence to show that Moyes consistently outperformed his transfer+wage budget at Everton

The_Kew_Tour

No

Pighead wrote: »

I'm not going to go through those gamers one by one but the fact you think we were 'easily the second best against Sunderland in the League Cup' tells me everything I need to know about your ability to assess games.

You telling me we were better team over 2 legs?

Pighead

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You telling me we were better team over 2 legs?

No I think both legs were fairly even with two sides playing fairly average football. I would accept any argument which said Sunderland were slightly better over the two legs but to say that United were easily the second best is just wrong.

Pro. F

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Doubting his Everton record without seeing direct evidence says a lot about someone's apparent football knowledge.

What a despicably ignorant comment. This type of objection to logical discussion is a plague on a discussion forum.

The_Kew_Tour

No

Pighead wrote: »

No I think both legs were fairly even with two sides playing fairly average football. I would accept any argument which said Sunderland were slightly better over the two legs but to say that United were easily the second best is just wrong.

ok one game out of how many did i pick?

Sunderland deserved to go through. They were better side at SOL. We were poor against them at OT. they should have won it in 90 minutes.

Pro. F

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You were asking for wages over the 11 year period which I and I doubt anybody else would have

Last years is probably the best you can get

I asked you for evidence to back up your claim that he had done a "top class" job at Everton in respect of the budget he was working with. You didn't even know what the wages were for any year.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

And it wasn't even clear in your original post what you were asking me to do, so don't know where you got the lying part from. It was only after your second post I could see you wanted a comparison with other clubs

Of course it was clear. Even the slightest bit of logical examination of your claim would show you that you would need to compare Everton's budget with that of other teams.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I asked you for evidence to back up your claim that he had done a "top class" job at Everton in respect of the budget he was working with. You didn't even know what the wages were for any year.

No you didn't, you are lying

Pro. F wrote: »

Have you any solid evidence to show that Moyes consistently outperformed his transfer+wage budget at Everton

I'm still not sure what that means

I asked you to clarify, you did

Then I gave you the numbers.

bucketybuck

No

Pighead wrote: »

You make it sound so easy

And you are trying to make it sound so hard, seemingly forgetting that at the time we were the champions of England playing the leagues bottom side.

Pro. F

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

No you didn't, you are lying



I'm still not sure what that means

I asked you to clarify, you did

Then I gave you the numbers.

How am I lying? I asked you for evidence to back up your claim that he had done a "top class" job at Everton in respect of the budget he was working with. There is the quote of me asking the question:

Pro. F wrote: »

Have you any solid evidence to show that Moyes consistently outperformed his transfer+wage budget at Everton?

You can pretend now that you didn't understand the question, the fact is that you still provided an answer at the time. In that answer you admitted that you didn't know what his wage spend had been.

So, you were making a claim about the job Moyes' had done with his budget at Everton when you didn't even know what that budget had been.

Elro

Pighead wrote: »

No I think both legs were fairly even with two sides playing fairly average football. I would accept any argument which said Sunderland were slightly better over the two legs but to say that United were easily the second best is just wrong.

Have we really been reduced to arguing over whether we were as good as or slightly worse than Sunderland? I really can't wait till the end of the season now, roll on the World Cup might cheer me up a bit

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

How am I lying? I asked you for evidence to back up your claim that he had done a "top class" job at Everton in respect of the budget he was working with. There is the quote of me asking the question:


You can pretend now that you didn't understand the question, the fact is that you still provided an answer at the time. In that answer you admitted that you didn't know what his wage spend had been.

So, you were making a claim about the job Moyes' had done with his budget at Everton when you didn't even know what that budget had been.

I said he did a top job

You said

Pro. F wrote: »

Have you any solid evidence to show that Moyes consistently outperformed his transfer+wage budget at Everton? I know that is what is generally accepted as truth, but that doesn't make it true.

That can be interpreted different ways, which is why I asked what you meant. That could mean how has he performed over the level that his budget would allow, which is why I brought up the net spending over the 11 years and said I don't know the wages over those 11 years. 35m net spend over 11 years with Everton finishing in the position they did is very good without even getting to the teams around them. It's surface level and your question looked like you wanted that.

Then after that you finally made clear what you wanted, you wanted them compared with clubs of similar budget. And that's exactly what I did, and put the wages last year in because the wages over an 11 year period aren't readily available and you specified you wanted wages.


As I already said in another post, I don't know the wages over the other 10 years, but personally I'm confident they were low relative to clubs around them, likely lower, which is the way Moyes had things at the club whether through choice or necessity. You can disagree on that obviously.


Earlier on you said you were satisfied Moyes did a very good job at Everton despite the only evidence the poster provided, K9 I think, was the gross spend over the last 10 years and wages from 2012/2013.

2moreMinutes

Pro. F wrote: »

What a despicably ignorant comment. This type of objection to logical discussion is a plague on a discussion forum.

I have absolutely no objection to logical discussions and I thoroughly enjoy reading a lot of logical discussions in this forum as well as some of the illogical ones.

However, it isn't even bordering on a logical discussion if you cannot accept that Moyes did a good job at Everton unless you see "evidence" (which is really just informed guesses by the media anyway) that their wage bill wasn't through the roof compared to other clubs in and around them over those years.
Every dog on the street knows he did a good job at Everton when all things are taken into consideration. To suggest otherwise is just putting the man down for no reason other than your obvious dislike of him. To not accept that he did a good job until you see "evidence" is just being awkward for the sake of being awkward. Accepting obvious things at face value does not actually make you less informed than you would like to be thought.

If you interpret my post as being against logical discussions, then that is your issue. Despicably ignorant? Even though its consistent with your general tone of superiority and not really surprising, its still funny that you think that.

K-9

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Earlier on you said you were satisfied Moyes did a very good job at Everton despite the only evidence the poster provided, K9 I think, was the gross spend over the last 10 years and wages from 2012/2013.

I just did a quick google, as I said afterwards I'm sure this has all been done before. He's spent virtually nothing. The wage bill was tenth the second last year he was there, down from 8th, though roughly a similar amount IIRC. Makes sense as the issues with Everton and Kenwright are well known.

Pro. F

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

1 I said he did a top job

You said

2That can be interpreted different ways, which is why I asked what you meant. That could mean how has he performed over the level that his budget would allow, which is why I brought up the net spending over the 11 years and said I don't know the wages over those 11 years. 335m net spend over 11 years with Everton finishing in the position they did is very good without even getting to the teams around them. It's surface level and your question looked like you wanted that.

Then after that you finally made clear what you wanted, you wanted them compared with clubs of similar budget. And that's exactly what I did, and put the wages last year in because the wages over an 11 year period aren't readily available and you specified you wanted wages.


As I already said in another post, I don't know the wages over the other 10 years, but personally I'm confident they were low relative to clubs around them, likely lower, which is the way Moyes had things at the club whether through choice or necessity. You can disagree on that obviously.


4Earlier on you said you were satisfied Moyes did a very good job at Everton despite the only evidence the poster provided, K9 I think, was the gross spend over the last 10 years and wages from 2012/2013.

1 You said more than "he did a top job". You referred to specifically to how his spending to success was impressive.

2 You did not say that you didn't know the wages over 11 years, you said: "I haven't got the wages and I doubt anybody will but I personally think he would have had them under control." It is obvious that you only learned about the wages when K-9 provided the information that he had found. So you made your original claim about how Moyes performed with his budget when you didn't know what his budget had been.

3 Spending figures that are not compared to other teams prove exactly nothing about spending efficiency. This is another painfully simple concept, but again you are confused by it.

4 At least with one year's wage information we can see what the general ballpark is. You were making assumptions with no evidence on wages at all.

The gross transfer spend comparison was also impressive and I already knew the net transfer spend.

Pro. F

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

I have absolutely no objection to logical discussions and I thoroughly enjoy reading a lot of logical discussions in this forum as well as some of the illogical ones.

However, it isn't even bordering on a logical discussion if you cannot accept that Moyes did a good job at Everton unless you see "evidence" (which is really just informed guesses by the media anyway) that their wage bill wasn't through the roof compared to other clubs in and around them over those years.
Every dog on the street knows he did a good job at Everton when all things are taken into consideration. To suggest otherwise is just putting the man down for no reason other than your obvious dislike of him. To not accept that he did a good job until you see "evidence" is just being awkward for the sake of being awkward. Accepting obvious things at face value does not actually make you less informed than you would like to be thought.

If you interpret my post as being against logical discussions, then that is your issue. Despicably ignorant? Even though its consistent with your general tone of superiority and not really surprising, its still funny that you think that.

I did not ask for evidence that their wage bill wasn't through the roof.

I don't care what "every dog in the street" thinks they know about the situation. The popular consensus in footballing matters, as with most things in life, is often quite wrong.

Pro. F

No

K-9 wrote: »

I just did a quick google, as I said afterwards I'm sure this has all been done before. He's spent virtually nothing. The wage bill was tenth the second last year he was there, down from 8th, though roughly a similar amount IIRC. Makes sense as the issues with Everton and Kenwright are well known.

Not in this thread it hasn't. Look at the negative reaction to the simple request for evidence so far. Evidence based thinking is not as popular on this thread as you seem to expect.

DARK-KNIGHT

No

Ah ffs this thread is ****ed... arguing arguing ****ing meltdown :mad:

Y2KBOS86

MagicIRL wrote: »

This infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2xSQU1Avw

I'm seething watching that.

Even a Sunday league manager would cut that **** out.

Kagawa needs to leave that hole asap.

Would be nice if he stayed in the prem with Liverpool, Arsenal, maybe even Everton, all of them have managers who could work wonders with Kagawa.

If Carrick, Cleverly, Young, Evra and Smalling are anywhere near the first team next year, yee are done.

None of them would get a game at City, Chelsea or Arsenal.

Replace them with quality and yee will be strong again.

If Moyes has a good summer, he can turn this ship, still alot of quality.

MonkeyTennis

Ive seen that too and its very silly, no player has a camera view of a game.

UnitedIrishman

No

Thought I couldn't get any more annoyed, until I watched that Kagawa video. Wasn't as noticeable watching the full game. Made the point in one of the old United threads - the players don't trust giving him the ball for god knows what reason.

One thing I've noticed too with Kagawa, the players need to trust his abilities more. He often occupies little areas in between players when he drifts from the left and automatically Valencia/Raf or whoever look up and think 'he's marked' or that he's not going to be able to go anywhere. But he's that intelligent of a player that he's able to keep the ball on the right side of his body away from the tackler or produce a good enough turn to get away from them.

Wrote that 3 months ago and still applies.

Y2KBOS86

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Thought I couldn't get any more annoyed, until I watched that Kagawa video. Wasn't as noticeable watching the full game. Made the point in one of the old United threads - the players don't trust giving him the ball for god knows what reason.

Wrote that 3 months ago and still applies.

Young, Carrick and Valencia are the worst offenders alright.

If he was playing with the likes of Flamini, Yaya Toure, Özil, Hazard, Silva etc they understand him.

Fergie left that mentality creep in over the years, United haven't played good football in a longtime.

Mata will go with the same way if something is not done.

RVP has a point.

Spanish Johnny

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Young, Carrick and Valencia are the worst offenders alright.

If he was playing with the likes of Flamini, Yaya Toure, Özil, Hazard, Silva etc they understand him.

Fergie left that mentality creep in over the years, United haven't played good football in a longtime.

Mata will go with the same way if something is not done.

RVP has a point.

From an Arsenal perspective Flamini is a weird choice to place in the company you have mentioned!

Y2KBOS86

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

From an Arsenal perspective Flamini is a weird choice to place in the company you have mentioned!

Flamini starts alot of the attacks for Arsenal, he gets the ball out quickly to the likes of Carzola, Ramsey etc to do there thing, he's dynamic with good pace, doesn't waste time with the ball, he's not at the level of Keane, Vieira, Busquets etc but he has been the biggest difference with Arsenal this year imo.

Brought energy and passion back.

Switch him with say Carrick and his slow, one paced, undynamic game and Arsenal would lose alot of momentum and spirit.

If Arsenal go on to win the league, he will be the signing of the season.

bassy

No

There's some poo been spread in here lately...........

goodolegill

No

if you are taking a wage cut to go to arsenal - its not exactly a shoe string budget that gets painted!!

Arteta, 30, is understood to have taken a pay cut of £10,000 a week to sign from Everton for £10m last summer.
The midfielder signed a four-year deal worth a reported £60,000 a week and has asked the club to review that following an impressive first season.

Deiseboy01

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Thought I couldn't get any more annoyed, until I watched that Kagawa video. Wasn't as noticeable watching the full game. Made the point in one of the old United threads - the players don't trust giving him the ball for god knows what reason.



Wrote that 3 months ago and still applies.

Because in the PL he gets knocked off the ball all the time.

brinty

MagicIRL wrote: »

This infuriates me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2xSQU1Avw

Christ that chronic...
how many times did he show for the ball and get ignored..
the amount of ball to young and he went up blind alleys and didn't beat the first man with a cross
balls to the side to get a cross in....
Rooney spraying 60 yard passes to someone who's marked rather than a 5 yard pass to a guy in space
no spacial awareness at all
just lump it long or wide
FFS looking at things in a microcosm like that tells you a lot about the mentality of the team.
Would Barca, Bayern or Real do this....would they ever, we need to be dominating possesion, sometimes simple short passes work FFS.. wear out other teams by having them chase the game and then quick decisive incisions to capitalise..

Panthro

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/26/robin-van-persie-manchester-united-future

Deiseboy01

Pro. F wrote: »

What a despicably ignorant comment. This type of objection to logical discussion is a plague on a discussion forum.

You should know. Reference back to the smart arse comment to the Dutch lad a few pages back. Got caught by the bollix when he confirmed he actually was Dutch, then you crawl all over him being nice as pie. Was hilarious.

You are one of the better posters on here but if you took a step back and stopped jumping down everyone's throat the thread as a whole would be a better place.

Queue aggressive posturing.

beno619

No

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Because in the PL he gets knocked off the ball all the time.

Guess you only watch the matches where he's played out of position.

Deiseboy01

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Flamini starts alot of the attacks for Arsenal, he gets the ball out quickly to the likes of Carzola, Ramsey etc to do there thing, he's dynamic with good pace, doesn't waste time with the ball, he's not at the level of Keane, Vieira, Busquets etc but he has been the biggest difference with Arsenal this year imo.

Brought energy and passion back.

Switch him with say Carrick and his slow, one paced, undynamic game and Arsenal would lose alot of momentum and spirit.

If Arsenal go on to win the league, he will be the signing of the season.

Flamini is rubbish. He runs around a lot to little effect. Roars at his own players, pointing out where they should be positioned then get out of position himself. Was it v Liverpool he was at fault for two goals. Wouldn't have him near a Utd midfield. Carrick is not great but still way better than Flamini.

Al Capwned

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Young, Carrick and Valencia are the worst offenders alright.

If he was playing with the likes of Flamini, Yaya Toure, Özil, Hazard, Silva etc they understand him.

Fergie left that mentality creep in over the years, United haven't played good football in a longtime.

Mata will go with the same way if something is not done.

RVP has a point.

RVP may have a point. But he should no way say what he did in public - never.
It's something that has really bugged me since the other night, and I genuinely hope he's disciplined over it. There is no room for players talking out of school imo, and he was way out of line.

KH25

No

Christ that video is shocking. I missed the second half the other night so I hadn't seen it before. Kagawa needs to go for his own sake.

Headshot

No

Ill be fair gutted if RVP leaves. Damn Moyes

Giruilla

KH25 wrote: »

Christ that video is shocking. I missed the second half the other night so I hadn't seen it before. Kagawa needs to go for his own sake.

When Kagawa has been in the team from the start United have played well and passed through him. makes such a difference to the style when he's on the pitch. He's the ideal link from defence to attack. I just don't understand how so many people (on here included) haven't seen it when he's played. Look at the Champions League games he started and played 90 mins in.
His ball retention is better than any other player on the team, not to mention his vision, movement and eye for developing attacking play. .

Perfect example is second leg against Sunderland last month. Kagawa starts, united start the game well, get the goal they need.. and while not playing amazing, were comfortable on the ball, creating chances and Kagawa was right in the middle of it. Thought they were comfortable to go through.
THEN, (pains me to think back about it) Moyes brings on f*'in Valencia on 61 mins. Instantly the team falls apart, can't keep the ball anymore and started getting pushed back into their own half. Sunderland got a lucky goal, but as soon as Kagawa went off united were playing long ball football and Sunderland effectively had 30 mins of pressure.

Pro. F

No

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

You should know. Reference back to the smart arse comment to the Dutch lad a few pages back. Got caught by the bollix when he confirmed he actually was Dutch, then you crawl all over him being nice as pie. Was hilarious.

WTF are you talking about? I didn't give him any smart arsed comment.

bullvine

No

I honestly cant for the life of me understand why Moyes didn't just replace Mata with Kagawa on Tues and keep the same team as the Palace win.

The best solution for everyone now is, get Van Gaal in for a couple of seasons, he'll get us back in the top four, he'll be good with the youth team, etc. Win us a couple of Trophies and then get Klopp or Pep in a few years..

Panthro

bullvine wrote: »

I honestly cant for the life of me understand why Moyes didn't just replace Mata with Kagawa on Tues and keep the same team as the Palace win. The best solution for everyone now is, get Van Gaal in for a couple of seasons, he'll get us back in the top four, he'll be good with the youth team, etc. Win us a couple of Trophies and then get Klopp or Pep in a few years..

You don't understand why no?!:pac:

inforfun

No

bullvine wrote: »

I honestly cant for the life of me understand why Moyes didn't just replace Mata with Kagawa on Tues and keep the same team as the Palace win.

The best solution for everyone now is, get Van Gaal in for a couple of seasons, he'll get us back in the top four, he'll be good with the youth team, etc. Win us a couple of Trophies and then get Klopp or Pep in a few years..

Feyenoord wanted him since Koeman is leaving end of the season.

He answered he wants to go to England and win the league there as well as he has done in Germany, Holland and Spain so that is why he said "No" to Feyenoord.

If he ends up in England i hope he treats the English press the same way as he does the Dutch.
Press conferences will be anything but boring.

Giruilla

bullvine wrote: »

I honestly cant for the life of me understand why Moyes didn't just replace Mata with Kagawa on Tues and keep the same team as the Palace win.

Thats the big question. I get the impression he's feeling pressured to squad rotate like Ferguson did more and more past few seasons.

What United need more than anything is to get a solid well set up starting 11 having a run of a few games.

beno619

No

Giruilla wrote: »

Thats the big question. I get the impression he's feeling pressured to squad rotate like Ferguson did more and more past few seasons.

What United need more than anything is to get a solid well set up starting 11 having a run of a few games.

If squad rotation is what he's been trying to do he's failing at that also , see Hernandez, Buttner, Lingard and Ando,Fabio when they were around.

bullvine

No

Giruilla wrote: »

Thats the big question. I get the impression he's feeling pressured to squad rotate like Ferguson did more and more past few seasons.

What United need more than anything is to get a solid well set up starting 11 having a run of a few games.

The team V. Palace is the best 11 we have with Rafa for Rio. Should be played in all remaining games as much as possible.

Panthro

Mata is bloody cup tied lads!:)

KH25

No

Giruilla wrote: »

When Kagawa has been in the team from the start United have played well and passed through him. makes such a difference to the style when he's on the pitch. He's the ideal link from defence to attack. I just don't understand how so many people (on here included) haven't seen it when he's played. Look at the Champions League games he started and played 90 mins in.
His ball retention is better than any other player on the team, not to mention his vision, movement and eye for developing attacking play. .

Perfect example is second leg against Sunderland last month. Kagawa starts, united start the game well, get the goal they need.. and while not playing amazing, were comfortable on the ball, creating chances and Kagawa was right in the middle of it. Thought they were comfortable to go through.
THEN, (pains me to think back about it) Moyes brings on f*'in Valencia on 61 mins. Instantly the team falls apart, can't keep the ball anymore and started getting pushed back into their own half. Sunderland got a lucky goal, but as soon as Kagawa went off united were playing long ball football and Sunderland effectively had 30 mins of pressure.

Completely agree. Its absurd. I am willing to admit that Kagawa hasn't set the world alight since he moved to the club but as you say, the team has played better with him on the pitch this season. If I was him I'd be handing in a transfer request. It is disgraceful that he gets dropped, yet the likes of Valencia continue to get games.

How does Moyes (and Fergie) not see this? Valencia is useless. He rarely takes on his man now and his crosses have turned into hoofing the ball along the ground as hard as he can. Id love to know how often he finds his man these days. Any other big team would drop him and he would stay dropped.

irishfeen

KH25 wrote: »

Completely agree. Its absurd. I am willing to admit that Kagawa hasn't set the world alight since he moved to the club but as you say, the team has played better with him on the pitch this season. If I was him I'd be handing in a transfer request. It is disgraceful that he gets dropped, yet the likes of Valencia continue to get games.

How does Moyes (and Fergie) not see this? Valencia is useless. He rarely takes on his man now and his crosses have turned into hoofing the ball along the ground as hard as he can. Id love to know how often he finds his man these days. Any other big team would drop him and he would stay dropped.

There has to be some reason ... what it is though I have no idea.

KH25

No

irishfeen wrote: »

There has to be some reason ... what it is though I have no idea.

Im at a loss to try to explain it. I know we are not PL managers, but how can something so obvious to the fans be completely ignored by the managers?

Giruilla

beno619 wrote: »

If squad rotation is what he's been trying to do he's failing at that also , see Hernandez, Buttner, Lingard and Ando,Fabio when they were around.

Who are all non-English... he must feel pressured give the english lads like Cleverley and Young game time in the hope to develop them... can't think of any other logical explanation based on their performances.
Valencia is a separate conundrum.

bullvine wrote: »

The team V. Palace is the best 11 we have with Rafa for Rio. Should be played in all remaining games as much as possible.

Totally agree. But I'd like to see Kagawa getting well rotated in their as much as possible too if not starting.