Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

FatherTed

bullvine wrote: »

ddg > cech
ivanovic and ramires walk into uniteds team

Theres nothing between both sets, two past it centre halfs and two average british ones, chelsea dont have a lb so they have a rb playing there, maybe united could move rafa over instead of evra. Chelsea centre midfield has luiz playin there cause they have so few quality options in there. Matic has not been there long enough to be considered. I would rather uniteds front four than chelsea s personally. but what would I know I am mental..

Just stop it.

I used to laugh at the Liverpool threads on here when they used to do stop like this, comparing Man Utd players with theirs on a 1 v 1 basis. Just give up now, it's a stupid argument.

bullvine

No

FatherTed wrote: »

Just stop it.

I used to laugh at the Liverpool threads on here when they used to do stop like this, comparing Man Utd players with theirs on a 1 v 1 basis. Just give up now, it's a stupid argument.

are you a mod now?

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

Would anyone actually not swap Oscar for Januzaj!?

Me, Januzaj all the way.

Backstreet Moyes

bullvine wrote: »

is cahill better than evans? would you swap Oscar for Januzaj? sorry see what you mean by fair game, thers about 3 or 4 that could be debated

Oscar is on a completely different level to Janjuaz at the moment. Oscar would be my first name on a teamsheet between both teams. Janjuaz will be a superstar but has a long way to go.

Hank Scorpio

No

No 4th place -> Sack

Can't afford the risk of loosing out on the CL two years in a row, look what happened to Liverpool

Quandary

No

Right now Oscar is well ahead of Januzaj. IMO, after hazard he is Chelsea's best player.

We have to remember though that Oscar over 3 years older than Januzaj. If Januzaj continues to progress like he has been doing he will easily be at Oscars level in 3 years.

bullvine

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

The way I see it

Cech
Raf JT Vidic Azp
Ramires Carrick
Willian Oscar Hazard
Rooney

I've left out Mata because he couldnt get a game first off and I've dropped RVP because I think Rooney would be a better fit for that formation as I think hes wasted played behind a CF.

If the formation is 4-4-2 drop Oscar for Rooney and you're sorted.

thats a perfectly acceptable team but you could easily make an argument for 3 extra united players
to be included in it like mata ddg rvp januzaj or evans, but to call my post being up for post of the year or as another poster called it mental without any reason, I think I have made a valid and debatable argument that didnt need to be totally dismissed as if it was completely bonkers.

GavRedKing

No

bullvine wrote: »

thats a perfectly acceptable team but you could easily make an argument for 3 extra united players
to be included in it like mata ddg rvp januzaj or evans, but to call my post being up for post of the year or as another poster called it mental without any reason, I think I have made a valid and debatable argument that didnt need to be totally dismissed as if it was completely bonkers.

You made a valid point, you said

bullvine wrote: »

Think about it, United have probably a better first 11 than Chelsea at the moment but in Typical Mourinho style he gets the best out of them. Depressing

Which is a bit mad to say the least, your point reads like Jose is getting a team like Hull to play out of their skins and out perform what they're capable of, which would be true if it wasnt for the fact the Chelsea team is littered with talent.

I'll come back next year and I'll argue with ya again as it becomes little clearer who has the better XI, managers aside.

bullvine

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

You made a valid point, you said

Which is a bit mad to say the least, your point reads like Jose is getting a team like Hull to play out of their skins and out perform what they're capable of, which would be true if it wasnt for the fact the Chelsea team is littered with talent.

I'll come back next year and I'll argue with ya again as it becomes little clearer who has the better XI, managers aside.

He is though. Chelsea first 11 is almost as the same as last year with only willian for mata. Its obvious his touch.

Pro. F

No

GavRedKing wrote: »

I'll come back next year and I'll argue with ya again as it becomes little clearer who has the better XI, managers aside.

You could do that if we have a proper manager next year. We may not have.

Rayne Wooney

Headshot wrote: »

He cant do anything, this is Moyes style.

It's still mainly Fergie's style with the team Fergie built.

Last season at this point we were top with 20 more goals scored and 1 more conceded than this season. We had one of the greatest managers of all time at the helm, this season we are 7th with a newbie who has a great record of coming in building a team and achieving, relative, success.

Let's look at the way we attacked to this point last season:


And this season:



+/- what 2%, it's almost identical. Barring the box figure being 7% off a lot of that can be attributed to RVP/Rooney being out and Danny Welbz in there attempting to create. Moyes has involved the full backs a bit more granted.

It's a system Fergie used that crowned us champions just 9 months ago deeply rooted in the club but hasn't worked out for Moyes in his first 7 months. The signs were on the wall the last few seasons and myself and others have said even back then that if we keep playing the same way there's a danger the results would stop coming and that's exactly what's enfolding in front of our eyes this season.

So why doesn't he change it you say, well I'll tell you why. The team is built to play this way, Valencia isn't adaptable, Young isn't adaptable, Cleverley isn't adaptable, Evra isn't adaptable/good enough, Carrick hasn't been good enough, Rafael hasn't been good enough. It's a team Fergie built to play a certain way. Moyes has brought in just two players.

Everyone wants to see the much coveted 4-2-3-1, a combination of Rooney/Kagawa/Januzaj/Mata playing behind RVP, with a lot more passing and movement. How can Moyes change to this with the players at his disposal? We need at least a world class midfielder, a top LB and another midfielder to implement this. What has Moyes identified as players he wants? Well what do you know, he's identified a world class midfielder and top LBs as players he wants to buy, he also stated these players won't be available until the summer. So you could say he's going in the right direction on that front.

Fergie was an anomaly, most managers couldn't dream of doing what he did. He played starting XIs that had no right of winning championships but yet they did, he milked average players for everything they had. It's unfair to expect this of Moyes, he needs a solid first 11 to show us what he wants to do. Moyes is currently playing with Fergies' team and can't much stray from Fergies style as a result.

When we get these players in the summer, do you honestly think adding Kroos/Gundogan or similar standard and a top LB, that we will still be playing the exact same way as we are now? I don't think so, I think we will start playing the good football that's been missing from Manchester United for years now. It's not like he's signing duds or trying to sign duds either, Mata, Fellani, tried to sign Fabregas, Bale, Khedira, apparently interested in Vidal, Kroos, Gundogan any manager could take over the team if it didn't work out in the end

It's been a disaster of a season so far, everything that could go wrong has. One thing I'll agree with people on is Moyes needs to stop getting the shakes when we go ahead in a game, though I think that will go in time. The current predicament we find ourselves in, is partly down to Moyes, partly down to Fergie and partly down to the players. Saying it's 80% Moyes fault is ridiculous IMO.

Now that's just my opinion and you can dismiss it as garbage or give me a Lol but it's how I see it.


I think I need a break from the thread.

bullvine

No

bullvine wrote: »

He is though. Chelsea first 11 is almost as the same as last year with only willian for mata. Its obvious his touch.

Of course they are not hull and they have massive talent but personally they have some average players or past it. unlike the chelsea team he had the first time.

Deiseboy01

Long time lurker first time contributer.

My take on this is that Utd's problems are all down to a lack of self belief. Moyes is responsible for that.

I'd equate Utd this season to Mike Tyson post the Buster Douglas loss, up to that point he crushed everyone that was put in front of him. His self belief was off the scale. It had been moulded into him since his teen years by Gus D'Amato. Similarly to what Fergie did with Utd. Post that loss not only did his opponents begin to believe he was beatable but Tyson began to believe he was beatable. We all know what happened next.

This season Moyes has taken a team with unshakable self belief and by poor management destroyed the most important factor that kept Utd challenging over the last few years, belief that they were the best and could turn around any situation.

Moyes by his comments per season about transfer targets and the lack of quality in the squad, by his defensive approach and by his reluctance to allow the players express themselves has robbed the squad of that belief that was essential to them overachieving. Once gone its a huge task to get that belief back. Defeat after defeat follows. Fear spreads, see Cleverely's passing stats, and compounds the problem.

It's going to take massive money and a monumental effort to get that 'we're Man Utd and we'll do what we want' attitude back. Not sure Davey is the man for the job.

Headshot

No

Man i hate stats like that, load of crap. I judge with my own eyes tbh. I dont need some fairly useless stats. Its horrible stuff Moyes has us playing, far worse than ferguson has ever done. Granted it hasnt been pretty for some time but id take back those previous seasons of playing style any day of the week compared to what we have now.

Pro. F

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's still mainly Fergie's style with the team Fergie built.

Last season at this point we were top with 20 more goals scored and 1 more conceded than this season. We had one of the greatest managers of all time at the helm, this season we are 7th with a newbie who has a great record of coming in building a team and achieving, relative, success.

Let's look at the way we attacked to this point last season:


And this season:



+/- what 2%, it's almost identical. Barring the box figure being 7% off a lot of that can be attributed to RVP/Rooney being out and Danny Welbz in there attempting to create. Moyes has involved the full backs a bit more granted.

It's a system Fergie used that crowned us champions just 9 months ago deeply rooted in the club but hasn't worked out for Moyes in his first 7 months. The signs were on the wall the last few seasons and myself and others have said even back then that if we keep playing the same way there's a danger the results would stop coming and that's exactly what's enfolding in front of our eyes this season.

So why doesn't he change it you say, well I'll tell you why. The team is built to play this way, Valencia isn't adaptable, Young isn't adaptable, Cleverley isn't adaptable, Evra isn't adaptable/good enough, Carrick hasn't been good enough, Rafael hasn't been good enough. It's a team Fergie built to play a certain way. Moyes has brought in just two players.

Everyone wants to see the much coveted 4-2-3-1, a combination of Rooney/Kagawa/Januzaj/Mata playing behind RVP, with a lot more passing and movement. How can Moyes change to this with the players at his disposal? We need at least a world class midfielder, a top LB and another midfielder to implement this. What has Moyes identified as players he wants? Well what do you know, he's identified a world class midfielder and top LBs as players he wants to buy, he also stated these players won't be available until the summer. So you could say he's going in the right direction on that front.

Fergie was an anomaly, most managers couldn't dream of doing what he did. He played starting XIs that had no right of winning championships but yet they did, he milked average players for everything they had. It's unfair to expect this of Moyes, he needs a solid first 11 to show us what he wants to do. Moyes is currently playing with Fergies' team and can't much stray from Fergies style as a result.

When we get these players in the summer, do you honestly think adding Kroos/Gundogan or similar standard and a top LB, that we will still be playing the exact same way as we are now? I don't think so, I think we will start playing the good football that's been missing from Manchester United for years now. It's not like he's signing duds or trying to sign duds either, Mata, Fellani, tried to sign Fabregas, Bale, Khedira, apparently interested in Vidal, Kroos, Gundogan any manager could take over the team if it didn't work out in the end

It's been a disaster of a season so far, everything that could go wrong has. One thing I'll agree with people on is Moyes needs to stop getting the shakes when we go ahead in a game, though I think that will go in time. The current predicament we find ourselves in, is partly down to Moyes, partly down to Fergie and partly down to the players. Saying it's 80% Moyes fault is ridiculous IMO.

Now that's just my opinion and you can dismiss it as garbage or give me a Lol but it's how I see it.


I think I need a break from the thread.

There is 10% less of whatever those pics are representing in the central two attacking sections this season, that's a significant swing.

Looking at the play on the pitch, the movement and the link up of the front six in particular, it is obvious that the team is playing drastically different to how they played last season. You are looking at it in the simplest of possible terms, purely on how often they use wide players and crosses. Look beyond that to how the players move off the ball in relation to each other, how they control the ball and link up with each other. It's worlds apart from the style last season, it is the same as we saw under Moyes at Everton and the idea that that is all this squad is capable of is laughable.

Kerrydude1981

No

Was listening to Andy Cole there on Off The Ball a live Q&A some good stories
by him,about Dwight Yorke being the middle man between himself and Sherringham and his first time on an away trip with Utd Gary Pallister hitting Roy Keane a slap outside the hotel after a night out

Fanny Brioscaí

Headshot wrote: »

Its horrible stuff Moyes has us playing, far worse than ferguson has ever done. Granted it hasnt been pretty for some time but id take back those previous seasons of playing style any day of the week compared to what we have now.

Before Ferguson even confirmed his retirement plans there was always noises that Moyes would be one of the favourites for the position. The only real surprise was he got a six year contract.

Up until Saturday i was willing to give Moyes a chance but the ridiculous substitution bringing on Welbeck for Jones and dropping Rooney back in midfield when we had Fletcher on the bench was absolute baffling has me now seriously questioning his management, his judgement on tactics and his current playing style.

The two things that really annoyed me and has probably shaped Moyes managerial start was 1, getting rid of an experienced and proven winning back room staff and 2, bringing in P.Nevillie and Giggs who have absolute zero experience in coaching experience at any level.

The game against Fulham on Sunday is a must for 3 points, if we lose i have a feeling it could well shape the future of Moyes as the current manager of the club.

I have no idea who would takeover if he was sacked. I'm a fan Roberto Martinez and his style of football and thought he would be a perfect fit.

Your Airbag

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's still mainly Fergie's style with the team Fergie built.

Good post and I agree with the majority but their is more of an emphasis on getting the ball out wide due to some other factors.

That extra 10% in central areas that Pro F mentioned is because imo Moyes hass less faith in our MF than Fergie did and Moyes can't squeez as much out of talented players as Fergie did. Also Moyes is trying to respect the UTD tradition of being a crossing team too much.

Plus this season Carrick has not been his usual self, more injuries and a lot of players look like they are half arsed.

Its all lead to a very poor showing. Moyes is of course at the helm but a lot of the players have really let us down. Personally even if we don't make top four if will still give him a season to build his own team like he did at Everton as they never played like this but I can understand peoples frustration. I think he will get another season no matter what happens.

Pro. F wrote: »

There is 10% less of whatever those pics are representing in the central two attacking sections this season, that's a significant swing.

Looking at the play on the pitch, the movement and the link up of the front six in particular, it is obvious that the team is playing drastically different to how they played last season. You are looking at it in the simplest of possible terms, purely on how often they use wide players and crosses. Look beyond that to how the players move off the ball in relation to each other, how they control the ball and link up with each other. It's worlds apart from the style last season, it is the same as we saw under Moyes at Everton and the idea that that is all this squad is capable of is laughable.

You obviously didn't watched Everton that much.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

You obviously didn't watched Everton that much.

I watched Everton plenty.

ShoulderChip

No

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9mbOcNZS8o

I really don't get why ye didn't buy this lad in January???

Lord TSC

No

Maybe cause Chelsea did?

Steel Dog

Spotted this on Twitter.

ShoulderChip

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Maybe cause Chelsea did?

Wow, Of all the negativity I have heard from United fans that must be the most striking example.

RasTa

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Wow, Of all the negativity I have heard from United fans that must be the most striking example.

To the question you asked, it probably was.

Lord TSC

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Wow, Of all the negativity I have heard from United fans that must be the most striking example.

What?

weldoninhio

I've a feeling that Mitroglou is going to have a huge say in this weekends game. I think he may hit the ground running, and if he does United will be in trouble. He is a serious striker.

Utopia Parkway

Quaint wrote: »

The game against Fulham on Sunday is a must for 3 points, if we lose i have a feeling it could well shape the future of Moyes as the current manager of the club.

Not even Moyes could mess up beating Fulham at home.

Mikeyt086

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Wow, Of all the negativity I have heard from United fans that must be the most striking example.

Matic wanted to rejoin Chelsea. Aside from kidnapping him and brainwashing him like John Obi Mikel, it was never on.

ShoulderChip

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

What?

Sorry,
Maybe I misunderstood you,
were you making the point that you did not try to sign him as Chelsea were interested too, or what did you mean by "because chelsea did"?

Thecon21

No

I can see United scoring earlyish against Fulham, then a long frustrating period of them controlling the game..

I can see it being 1 or 2 nil..


Would love a ridiculous 5 nil all the same, Mata with a goal and an assist.. Would like to see Mata and Januzaj in the same line up too

Pro. F

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9mbOcNZS8o

I really don't get why ye didn't buy this lad in January???

Meh, I wouldn't be too worried. Imo he's a solid player: big and athletic; can dribble past players when he builds up a head of steam, can pass okay and has a shot on him. But his close control and touch in a tight spot are lacking. A typical PL central midfielder. Jose will work his magic, improve his stamina 50%, and he'll look like a bit of a beast in that system in this league, but we should be looking for more skilled CMs imo.

He would have been useful as a short term fix, but that's not worth having to out bid Chelsea for.

Mikeyt086

No

Somewhere Headshot is punching a wall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NllyIjpChcw

Lord TSC

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Sorry,
Maybe I misunderstood you,
were you making the point that you did not try to sign him as Chelsea were interested too, or what did you mean by "because chelsea did"?

Nothing to do with interest. You asked why we didn't sign him. I replied because Chelsea did. Can't see what part of that was ambiguous. We couldn't exactly sign a player Chelsea had just signed...

Quandary

No

Moyes deciding not to go ahead with the Strootman signing is almost as bad as Fergie letting Pogba go.

Very fcuking annoying. Strootman was always gonna be a no brainer and he would have been a very reasonable price too.

Hope to fcuk he signs the right midfielder(s) in the Summer.

K-9

No

Its All Wright wrote: »

On average you need between 68-70 points to finish top 4. We currently have 40 with 14 games to go & 42 points to play for. I think we need 11 more wins to get 4th which from looking at the fixtures i think we'll get starting on Sunday against Fulham. Not much margin for error but we'll do it

Arsenal got 73 last season with an unbelievable run in. I'd say it will take that or slightly higher this season, the main reasons being 4th-7th are on higher points as the exact same stage last season, Liverpool 5 points more than Spurs and United even in 7th, 5 points better than Liverpool at the exact same point. The other big reason is the bottom half being so bunched together, barring Everton, the other 6 teams in the top 7 are doing well enough against the bottom half teams.

It looks like there's going to be up to maybe 11 teams battling against relegation and 2 teams in mid table limbo with little chance of Europa Cup football. All of that naturally means a higher than average 4th points total.

thelad95

No

Thecon21 wrote: »

I can see United scoring earlyish against Fulham, then a long frustrating period of them controlling the game..

I can see it being 1 or 2 nil..


Would love a ridiculous 5 nil all the same, Mata with a goal and an assist.. Would like to see Mata and Januzaj in the same line up too

Fulham are by far and away the worst side in the League this year. If we have Rooney and Van Persie up front along with a competent midfield pairing consisting of two of carrick/fellaini/fletcher it could get ugly providing we don't resort to Trappatoni-esque long ball tactics.

Speaking of which will Fellaini be fit for Sunday?

The_Kew_Tour

No

think we will see Fellaini at some stage Sunday. maybe from bench. meant to be ready for it

Fanny Brioscaí

I'm hoping we see Carrick and Fellaini starting in CM on Sunday and than for the remainder of the season.

Kilkenny14

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Somewhere Headshot is punching a wall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NllyIjpChcw

In fairness, I doubt he's the only one of us doing that right now

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

There is 10% less of whatever those pics are representing in the central two attacking sections this season, that's a significant swing.

Looking at the play on the pitch, the movement and the link up of the front six in particular, it is obvious that the team is playing drastically different to how they played last season. You are looking at it in the simplest of possible terms, purely on how often they use wide players and crosses. Look beyond that to how the players move off the ball in relation to each other, how they control the ball and link up with each other. It's worlds apart from the style last season, it is the same as we saw under Moyes at Everton and the idea that that is all this squad is capable of is laughable.

I honestly think the variance is down to the fact that United are still trying the same things as last season it's just a lot messier and they end up out wide due to a lack of central options. Rooney is still a beast but his control in tight spaces has gone to shìt and Kagawa and probably Welbeck have been the only attackers with a significant amount of gametime capable of recieving the ball with their back to goal, turning with it and doing something. Mata can now help out on that front obviously but if he's put in the same situation out wide as Kagawa has been it's going to be more of the same. The way forward is staring Moyes in the face imo, he just seems afraid to experiment even though it can surely get no worse than it is now. Just play Kagawa, Rooney and Mata the same way that Jose is playing the 3 lads at Chelsea. Tell Fellaini, Carrick, Jones, Fletcher or whoever that they are covering Evra and Rafael or whoever's there. It would solve a lot of problems imo.

All I want is something to change, I don't see any kind of tactical philosophy being implemented which is something I constantly criticised Fergie for, eventually Rooney and RVP weren't going to be be able to bail you out and there was no Nani or Berbatov like players there who also spent a time bailing the team out on recent seasons.

ShoulderChip

No

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Nothing to do with interest. You asked why we didn't sign him. I replied because Chelsea did. Can't see what part of that was ambiguous. We couldn't exactly sign a player Chelsea had just signed...

Oh oh right, yeah sure if you wait long enough all the players will be signed by different clubs.

Why are you assuming I am asking why did you not sign the player in January after he had already moved.
Would it not be more logical that I am asking why didn't you sign a player before he moved?

Please answer that in the general sense, its not specific to any given player.

Technique

Next year's kits?

Thecon21

No

Moyes at half time..

dr.kenneth noisewater

Technique wrote: »

Next year's kits?

Not bad!

Schwiiing

Technique wrote: »

Next year's kits?

White trim would be nicer on the red version.

NUTZZ

Really like those kits surprisingly but I can't see them being the real deal, its highly unlikely 3 new kits would be released in the same season. The current blue away kit will most likely be next years third kit.

Lord TSC

No

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Would it not be more logical that I am asking why didn't you sign a player before he moved?

Please answer that in the general sense, its not specific to any given player.

Who knows. There were many players who moved club we didn't go after. Only Moyes and his staff know why we didn't.
Personal opinion, he was an ex-Chelsea player, Chelsea moved for him pretty quick in the window...everything aligned for him to go to Chelsea. Wouldn't be shocked to hear Chelsea had a buy-back deal in his contract so once they wanted him, it didn't matter if United did or didn't. There was little to no choice in the transfer.

I'd have liked him but I don't think he was ever going to come to us once his ex-club came back in for him. And I don't waste time wondering about players we were barely linked with and why we didn't sign him. Otherwise, we'd have a list of 100 players to go through after every window...

J. Marston

No

Fairly sure they're just fan created kits. They are brilliant though, the black kit especially.

Nalz

No

@proF

You say our play now is world's apart. Apart from saying look at players touch,link play and movement...can u elaborate? And wha else is different?

Nit picking on you but would be v interested to hear your in depth analysis on this world apart change in tactics/strategy...or someone else's opinion on it.

xtal191

No

Yeah those kits are fan created ones, http://www.behance.net/gallery/Kit-Design-VI/9064945