Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

2moreMinutes

Kirby wrote: »

I take your point but what does it say that Martinez has the same team playing better football in such a short amount of time? Sometimes I feel the media hyper-inflated the job that Moyes was doing.

When a manager who got relegated the year before can take over the same group of players, and not only keep their position in the league intact but improve their style of play too......it begs the question how important Moyes was. I'll remind you that many people tipped Everton to be in a relegation battle this season after losing him.

Take Lukaku, Barry, Barkley and McCarthy out of that team and they're not up to a whole lot altogether. Barkley and Coleman playing out of their skins for the first few months of the season also helped them big time.
I'd wait until the end of the season to see just how far Martinez has actually brought them. Sometimes I feel that everyone hyper-inflates the job that Martinez is doing.......

SherlockWatson

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Imagine this lad in one of our counter attacking teams of the past

Hypnotising stuff

Heroic last ditch defending, would have been such a savage goal otherwise!

beno619

No

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Take Lukaku out of the Everton team and where would they be? Everton may play a brand of football that's easier on the eye under Martinez but I think the change isn't as dramatic as people make out. Outside of Barry in midfield its still pretty much the team Moyes left behind and they werent exactly mugs.

I find this argument very funny, what about Moyes I'm guessing Fergie left him a group of mugs ? Take Moyes's signings out of the side and it would be Fergie's team.

Trying to diminish what Martinez has done in a sort space of time Is as bad as trying to diminish De Boers achievements, every Everton fan prefers the Martinez reign.

Maximus Alexander

beno619 wrote: »

I find this argument very funny, what about Moyes I'm guessing Fergie left him a group of mugs ? Take Moyes's signings out of the side and it would be Fergie's team.

Trying to diminish what Martinez has done in a sort space of time Is as bad as trying to diminish De Boers achievements, every Everton fan prefers the Martinez reign.

It's a somewhat valid point though. Lukaku is on loan - when he goes back to Chelsea, Martinez will find it difficult to replace him with similar quality, which means he may struggle to replicate this season's results next year.

beno619

No

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's a somewhat valid point though. Lukaku is on loan - when he goes back to Chelsea, Martinez will find it difficult to replace him with similar quality, which means he may struggle to replicate this season's results next year.

All ifs and buts. To paraphrase rafa.
Martinez has improved Everton,fact.
De Boer is a winner,fact.
Both managers could argue at being more successful than Moyes,fact.

Maximus Alexander

beno619 wrote: »

All ifs and buts. To paraphrase rafa.
Martinez has improved Everton,fact.
De Boer is a winner,fact.
Both managers could argue at being more successful than Moyes,fact.

Ah well if you have all the facts, discussion is pointless. You should list all these facts on a blog or something and just drop a link here. Save yourself time.

Leftist

No

please leave moyes.

beno619

No

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Ah well if you have all the facts, discussion is pointless. You should list all these facts on a blog or something and just drop a link here. Save yourself time.

Do you actually disagree or are you just arguing for arguments sake ? The Moyes defence forces have gone to extremes to rubbish Martinez and now De Boer.

Liam O

Where does Martinez's relegation rank when people talk of his achievements?

tallaghtmick

No

Liam O wrote: »

Where does Martinez's relegation rank when people talk of his achievements?

An amazing one :pac:

Maximus Alexander

beno619 wrote: »

Do you actually disagree or are you just arguing for arguments sake ? The Moyes defence forces have gone to extremes to rubbish Martinez and now De Boer.

It's hard not to disagree with someone by default when they end sentences with, fact. And put silly monikers like "Moyes defence forces" on people who engage them in discussion.

I don't understand the love-in people have with Martinez. He hardly has a glowing managerial record. He has a League 1 title and an FA Cup to his name, has lead a team to PL relegation and has come in, worked his magic at Everton, and has them playing at... approximately the same level they played at last season.

Wow. Colour me impressed.

beno619

No

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's hard not to disagree with someone by default when they end sentences with, fact. And put silly monikers like "Moyes defence forces" on people who engage them in discussion.

I don't understand the love-in people have with Martinez. He hardly has a glowing managerial record. He has a League 1 title and an FA Cup to his name, has lead a team to PL relegation and has come in, worked his magic at Everton, and has them playing at... approximately the same level they played at last season.

Wow. Colour me impressed.

I don't love Martinez and it always amused me that his Wigan side could have such vast swings in performance levels.

However I can apreciate the job he has done this season, he has taken Everton to the next level he has taken points away at big 4 clubs.He has them playing far better football than Moyes ever did. Arguably this is a much tougher premier league than Moyes ever managed and he has them above United.

People just need to be honest Moyes has been Shiite Martinez has been good.

Edit: Moyes defence forces was not aimed at you in particular.

Red Crow

Less than one year in and I'd say most United fans have already turned against Moyes. We're not getting relegated. We're playing sh1t and we need to move on a few players and bring a few players in. I think everybody accepts that we're badly short in some areas of the pitch. We have a shabby defence and no CM. If we show no signs of improvement into next season then I'll start worrying but I'm very confident that Moyes will turn it around and that will be in-spite of some the so-called 'fans' at this club. Pathetic really.

bucketybuck

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Take Lukaku, Barry, Barkley and McCarthy out of that team and they're not up to a whole lot altogether.

Take nearly half of their first team out and they aren't as good?

Wow, what stunning analysis. :pac:

beno619

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

Take nearly half of their first team out and they aren't as good?

Wow, what stunning analysis. :pac:

+1
Take Martinez's signings + the lad he promoted out of the side. If only our manager could sign players.

Cantona's Collars

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unwanted-milestones-david-moyes-could-6766063

Record breaker: The unwanted milestones Moyes could clock up this season


West Brom (A)

The Baggies claimed their first Old Trafford victory since the 1978-79 season back in September, and are aiming for their first double over the Reds since that campaign.

Liverpool (H)

No records at stake per se, but the Anfield club have only finished above United once in the Premier League era (2001-02) and would be almost dead certs to do so again with a win in this fixture.

West Ham (A)

Perhaps one of the least worrying games of the run-in in terms of landmark results, but United haven't lost a top-flight fixture against West Ham since 2007.

City (H)

The Blues have not picked up three consecutive wins at Old Trafford since claiming five in a row between 1968 and 1972.

Aston Villa (H)

Another game where no real record is on the line, though United have lost just twice to Villa in the Premier League since August 1995 - a run of 36 games.

Newcastle (A)

The Magpies have not done the league double over the Reds since the 1930-31 season, when a 4-3 home win and 7-4 away victory underlined the Tyneside club's superiority for a single campaign at least.

Hull City (H)

Hull have never won a game at Old Trafford in their entire history and former United defender Steve Bruce will hope to end that run this season.

Everton (A)

Having won at the Reds' home for the first time since 1992 earlier this season, the Toffees are now in pursuit of a first league double since 1969-70. On that occasion, United played Everton twice in six days - with a game against Southampton sandwiched in between for good measure!

Norwich (H)

Chris Hughton's men are chasing their first win at Old Trafford since August 1989 when they claimed three points as Gary Pallister made his debut.

Sunderland (H)

The Mackems have already beaten United on their own turf this season in the Capital One Cup, but have not done the same in the league since May 1968. George Best scored in that game as Matt Busby's side suffered a 2-1 defeat.

Southampton (A)

You have to go back to the 1988-89 season to find the last time Southampton took four points off the Reds, which they would match on the final day of the campaign should they get a win.

Lord TSC

No

Ah well lads, take Suarez, Sturridge, Hazard, Negredo, Aguero, the Everton lads, whoever has Spurs in 5th, Wenger, Jose, et al out of their teams, and we'd be top of the table....provided we don't also have to take De Gea, RVP and Rooney out of ours...

tallaghtmick

No

Take Moyes from united and we would be top 4 at least.

2moreMinutes

bucketybuck wrote: »

Take nearly half of their first team out and they aren't as good?

Wow, what stunning analysis. :pac:

Nearly half the first team that wasn't there last season therefore Martinez isn't managing the exact same team as was stated. I know it's complicated when you have to read between the lines so I'll try to use pictures to illustrate it better next time.

tallaghtmick

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Nearly half the first team that wasn't there last season therefore Martinez isn't managing the exact same team as was stated. I know it's complicated when you have to read between the lines so I'll try to use pictures to illustrate it better next time.

Plus Everton also lost their best player to us.

2moreMinutes

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Plus Everton also lost their best player to us.

So it's definitely not the same group of players then so?

tallaghtmick

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

So it's definitely not the same group of players then so?

Pretty much half of them.

2moreMinutes

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Pretty much half of them.

We're in agreement then so. Good that you now seem to understand.

Leftist

No

zerks wrote: »

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/unwanted-milestones-david-moyes-could-6766063

Record breaker: The unwanted milestones Moyes could clock up this season


West Brom (A)

The Baggies claimed their first Old Trafford victory since the 1978-79 season back in September, and are aiming for their first double over the Reds since that campaign.

Liverpool (H)

No records at stake per se, but the Anfield club have only finished above United once in the Premier League era (2001-02) and would be almost dead certs to do so again with a win in this fixture.

West Ham (A)

Perhaps one of the least worrying games of the run-in in terms of landmark results, but United haven't lost a top-flight fixture against West Ham since 2007.

City (H)

The Blues have not picked up three consecutive wins at Old Trafford since claiming five in a row between 1968 and 1972.

Aston Villa (H)

Another game where no real record is on the line, though United have lost just twice to Villa in the Premier League since August 1995 - a run of 36 games.

Newcastle (A)

The Magpies have not done the league double over the Reds since the 1930-31 season, when a 4-3 home win and 7-4 away victory underlined the Tyneside club's superiority for a single campaign at least.

Hull City (H)

Hull have never won a game at Old Trafford in their entire history and former United defender Steve Bruce will hope to end that run this season.

Everton (A)

Having won at the Reds' home for the first time since 1992 earlier this season, the Toffees are now in pursuit of a first league double since 1969-70. On that occasion, United played Everton twice in six days - with a game against Southampton sandwiched in between for good measure!

Norwich (H)

Chris Hughton's men are chasing their first win at Old Trafford since August 1989 when they claimed three points as Gary Pallister made his debut.

Sunderland (H)

The Mackems have already beaten United on their own turf this season in the Capital One Cup, but have not done the same in the league since May 1968. George Best scored in that game as Matt Busby's side suffered a 2-1 defeat.

Southampton (A)

You have to go back to the 1988-89 season to find the last time Southampton took four points off the Reds, which they would match on the final day of the campaign should they get a win.

We'll beat norwich, sunderland, villa and hull.

4 wins from the last 11

but let's give him time yeah?

tallaghtmick

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

We're in agreement then so. Good that you now seem to understand.

Well what im saying is Martinez has improved Everton while Moyes had made us worse, whats your take on that because I am in no way defending Moyes.

Macca07

The Wigan side that got relegated last year was an awful team, their defence was shocking, conceded 73 goals in the league. Their FA Cup run was very lucky, the only decent team they beat before the final was Everton.

Everton are currently on 48 points, and finished last season with 63. I think they'll end up with more points this season (not many more), but Lukaku has been a beast for them this season, and he won't be there next season.

Martinez plays good football though, very attack-minded approach (probably what cost Wigan last season, they scored 47 goals, Cardiff currently have 19 with 10 games to go). This style of play is always going to be more attractive to the fans, but I don't think Martinez is doing that much of a better job than Moyes has done.

Remember Barry and Lukaku are on loan, McCarthy is a direct replacement for Fellaini, and Barkley was given his first games for the club by Moyes, just had the misfortune of a bad injury. Will Barry be there next season? If he takes a massive pay-cut he might, but Lukaku won't be. The majority of the squad is Moyes squad. And they'll do well to hold onto the likes of Coleman, McCarthy, Barkley long-term.

bucketybuck

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Take Lukaku, Barry, Barkley and McCarthy out of that team and they're not up to a whole lot altogether. Barkley and Coleman playing out of their skins for the first few months of the season also helped them big time.
I'd wait until the end of the season to see just how far Martinez has actually brought them. Sometimes I feel that everyone hyper-inflates the job that Martinez is doing.......

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Nearly half the first team that wasn't there last season therefore Martinez isn't managing the exact same team as was stated. I know it's complicated when you have to read between the lines so I'll try to use pictures to illustrate it better next time.

Perhaps you should stick to pictures because your words are not making much sense.

Martinez isn't doing that good a job because he doesn't have the same team as Moyes did?
Martinez isn't doing a good job because the players that he brought in are playing well?

Do you even know what your point actually was?

2moreMinutes

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Well what im saying is Martinez has improved Everton while Moyes had made us worse, whats your take on that because I am in no way defending Moyes.

My posts weren't defending Moyes either. They were more trying to rubbish this notion that Martinez is a saviour of some sorts and the underlying nonsense that he would be a good replacement for Moyes right now. I know which one I'd prefer to have for the next few years.

As for your question, there's no denying that we have gone backwards this season while Everton have been playing some good stuff at times. I don't for one second believe there's been any lasting turn in fortunes though.

tallaghtmick

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

My posts weren't defending Moyes either. They were more trying to rubbish this notion that Martinez is a saviour of some sorts and the underlying nonsense that he would be a good replacement for Moyes right now. I know which one I'd prefer to have for the next few years.

As for your question, there's no denying that we have gone backwards this season while Everton have been playing some good stuff at times. I don't for one second believe there's been any lasting turn in fortunes though.

!00% with you on that there, though id rather have neither.

beno619

No

Macca07 wrote: »

The Wigan side that got relegated last year was an awful team, their defence was shocking, conceded 73 goals in the league. Their FA Cup run was very lucky, the only decent team they beat before the final was Everton.

Everton are currently on 48 points, and finished last season with 63. I think they'll end up with more points this season (not many more), but Lukaku has been a beast for them this season, and he won't be there next season.

Martinez plays good football though, very attack-minded approach (probably what cost Wigan last season, they scored 47 goals, Cardiff currently have 19 with 10 games to go). This style of play is always going to be more attractive to the fans, but I don't think Martinez is doing that much of a better job than Moyes has done.

Remember Barry and Lukaku are on loan, McCarthy is a direct replacement for Fellaini, and Barkley was given his first games for the club by Moyes, just had the misfortune of a bad injury. Will Barry be there next season? If he takes a massive pay-cut he might, but Lukaku won't be. The majority of the squad is Moyes squad. And they'll do well to hold onto the likes of Coleman, McCarthy, Barkley long-term.

Martinez worked in even more of a shoe string budget than moyes did and didn't have a decent youth system to pad his squad.

I'm fairly sure he played 5 at the back last season ? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The too of premier league is tougher than anything Moyes ever had to deal with just like Martinez had to deal with a tougher bottom half of the table than Moyes.

So there should be a caviet because Martinez brought in players on loan ? At the end of the day he brought them in and improved the side.
Barry will most likely become a Everton player and Lukaku's future is in the air,not sure how that is some negative mark on Martinez.

Macca07

beno619 wrote: »

Martinez worked in even more of a shoe string budget than moyes did and didn't have a decent youth system to pad his squad.

I'm fairly sure he played 5 at the back last season ? Correct me if I'm wrong.

The too of premier league is tougher than anything Moyes ever had to deal with just like Martinez had to deal with a tougher bottom half of the table than Moyes.

So there should be a caviet because Martinez brought in players on loan ? At the end of the day he brought them in and improved the side.
Barry will most likely become a Everton player and Lukaku's future is in the air,not sure how that is some negative mark on Martinez.

What are you talking about?

keane2097

No

How an Everton team sitting in sixth can be on "the next level" to an Everton team that have finished sixth every year for a decade blows my mind man.

8-10

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

For me, getting Everton to a point where they are consistently running close to Liverpool and Spurs on 1/7 of their budget each year over 10 years is pretty impressive, and for me more impressive than winning the league 3 times with the best team in the Netherlands with the best youth setup in the Netherlands. It's not hugely more impressive, as I said before it is very good to win 3 titles and De Boer has done a good job, but I think what happened at Everton was even better.

Mate I'm not comparing at all I think you're making a completely different point. I didn't mention Everton. I rate David Moyes really highly as a manager for what he did there and I think he'll be successful at United. That's not an issue for me to admit.

I'm just not prepared to compare the achievements as they're completely different scenarios. My sole point is to dismiss your notion that 3 league titles with Ajax is not a great achievement (you can try to say that you still thought it was good but it's clear you were downplaying it), and to say that de Boer would be a good coach for any top European team right now.

Whether or not he's a better coach than Moyes is not something I'm debating or even mentioning. I think even if he did go to United it would be as number 2. But that still doesn't take away from what he did in making that team that lost all those players back into a title winning squad. You'd be lucky to get him, there's not very many coaches that young that would be good enough for United right now.

2moreMinutes

bucketybuck wrote: »

Perhaps you should stick to pictures because your words are not making much sense.

Martinez isn't doing that good a job because he doesn't have the same team as Moyes did?
Martinez isn't doing a good job because the players that he brought in are playing well?

Do you even know what your point actually was?

Don't think I've ever denied that Martinez is doing a good job this season. However, he's not doing that good job with the same group of players as was there last year which is the stick that's being used to beat Moyes for some reason. Both very obvious and easy to understand points I'd have thought.
There are plenty of issues to raise with Moyes but how his successor at his former club is doing is a particularly lazy one.

beno619

No

keane2097 wrote: »

How an Everton team sitting in sixth can be on "the next level" to an Everton team that have finished sixth every year for a decade blows my mind man.

Have you watched Everton away to any if the big 6 ? Compare them to us and Everton under Moyes.

Again this is a far more competitive premier league and United are the only traditional side failing in a big way.

beno619

No

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Don't think I've ever denied that Martinez is doing a good job this season. However, he's not doing that good job with the same group of players as was there last year which is the stick that's being used to beat Moyes for some reason. Both very obvious and easy to understand points I'd have thought.
There are plenty of issues to raise with Moyes but how his successor at his former club is doing is a particularly lazy one.

The point you were trying to make was unclear untill now.

Why didn't Moyes bring in players , Pellegrini,Martinez, Mourinho. All new to jobs nobody needs to make excuses for them.

Your Airbag

beno619 wrote: »

The point you were trying to make was unclear untill now.

Why didn't Moyes bring in players , Pellegrini,Martinez, Mourinho. All new to jobs nobody needs to make excuses for them.

He brought in Fellaini and Mata? He got Rooney committed and brought Januzaj into the first team very quickly?

Macca07

keane2097 wrote: »

How an Everton team sitting in sixth can be on "the next level" to an Everton team that have finished sixth every year for a decade blows my mind man.

Exactly the point I was making. Everton might be playing better football, but that doesn't make them a better team. They'll end up this season in the same position as last season, with pretty much the same points tally.

Leftist

No

is this the everton thread?

Cantona's Collars

Macca07

zerks wrote: »

U were beaten to it, about 2-3 pages ago

tallaghtmick

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

He brought in Fellaini and Mata? He got Rooney committed and brought Januzaj into the first team very quickly?

Fellaini was a last minute signing and not the creative player we needed, although I would still have signed him.

Mata was a no brainer tbh.

Rooney I agree on.

Adnan would have played under Fergie this season anyway.

The summer window was a shambles tbh, Chelsea, City, and Everton all signed enough players during it to improve while we diddled on players we had no chance with.

Macca07

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Fellaini was a last minute signing and not the creative player we needed, although I would still have signed him.

Mata was a no brainer tbh.

Rooney I agree on.

Adnan would have played under Fergie this season anyway.

The summer window was a shambles tbh, Chelsea, City, and Everton all signed enough players during it to improve while we diddled on players we had no chance with.

I agree the summer transfer windows was a disaster. We tried signing Fabregas, and would've been a great signing but it was always a waste of time. The Fellaini transfer should've been completed in July. I'm hoping the next one will be better, but I feel we need a different manager.

Your Airbag

Speaking of Cesc and Barca here is a video of UTD playing Barca's current style before they did. Its uncanny how a like they are.

Lots of Tikki takka and Irwin ends up looking just like Messi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e63KpuqGP38

sawfish

DM-ICE wrote: »

Anderson was moved out on loan because someone was mad enough to sign him.

Anderson: The next Ronaldinho?

bucketybuck

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

He brought in Fellaini and Mata? He got Rooney committed and brought Januzaj into the first team very quickly?

I hope you didn't have a straight face typing that.

Cantona's Collars

Macca07 wrote: »

U were beaten to it, about 2-3 pages ago

Never noticed,too much Everton talk.;)

keane2097

No

beno619 wrote: »

Have you watched Everton away to any if the big 6 ? Compare them to us and Everton under Moyes.

Again this is a far more competitive premier league and United are the only traditional side failing in a big way.

This is the most competitive Premier League for the last decade is it, to the extent that Martinez' achievement in being sixth three quarters of the way through is a new level than Moyes doing it ever year?

Excuse me if I guffaw.

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

I hope you didn't have a straight face typing that.

Why? Its fact. It was in response to a post asking "Why didn't Moyes bring anyone in?" that seem to claim nobody was brought which is not fact.

That claim should not have been made with a straight face.

Cantona's Collars

Bayern looking at Gundongan? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2572851/Gundogan-caught-tug-war-Bayern-Munich-look-pip-Man-Utd-Real-Madrid-Dortmund-star.html

Replacement for Kroos??