Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't accept that. I think that statement is bollocks.

Its not, we have needed an overhaul for a while now. Just because Fergie could work his magic with them doesn't make them individually good.

Poor players and good ones that have regressed
Clev
Carrick
Young
Val
Evra
Buttner

Oap's who needed replacing seasons ago
Giggs
Rio

Scholes could get a mention even though he is retired because he was so vital but never replaced

Players who are either okay but not world class and have lots to prove
Raf
Kagawa (hasn't been for us at least)
Jones
Fletch (good but may be done as a week in week out option)
Januzaj (promising but lots to prove)
Fellaini
Welbeck

World class
Rooney
RVP
DDG
Mata (based on CFC form)
Vidic (on his way out)
Chico (imo, could be in the ok section)


Thats a lot of players not in the World Class category and most of our starting eleven.

How people can compare our squad to other squads and gloss over the obvious differences.

The ball was dropped and left on the floor for a long time. Papering up the cracks was a phrase mentioned on here a lot before Moyes came in.

The squad needs big investment. Its beyond obvious.

Macca07

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its not, we have needed an overhaul for a while now. Just because Fergie could work his magic with them doesn't make them individually good.

Poor players and good ones that have regressed
Clev
Carrick
Young
Val
Evra
Buttner

Oap's who needed replacing seasons ago
Giggs
Rio

Scholes could get a mention even though he is retired because he was so vital but never replaced

Players who are either okay but not world class and have lots to prove
Raf
Kagawa (hasn't been for us at least)
Jones
Fletch (good but may be done as a week in week out option)
Januzaj (promising but lots to prove)
Fellaini
Welbeck

World class
Rooney
RVP
DDG
Mata (based on CFC form)
Vidic (on his way out)
Chico (imo, could be in the ok section)


Thats a lot of players not in the World Class category and most or or starting eleven.

How people can compare our squad to other squads and gloss over the obvious differences.

The ball was dropped and left on the floor for the long time. Papering up the cracks was a phrase mentioned on here a lot before Moyes came in.

The squad needs big investment. Its beyond obvious.

I can't wait to get FM14 up and running and completely overhaul the whole team to see how I get on.

Vic Vinegar

thebigredone wrote: »

Fergie didn't get 26 years! He won things for most of those years! If moyes starts winning and does so consistently for the next 25 years I think we'd all gladly keep him there!

That went clean over your head.

Thecon21

No

Red Crow wrote: »

The people who want Moyes sacked now are so short-sighted.

I think the people who want Moyes out have the best interests of the club at heart but ultimately their interests are misguided, short-sighted and counter-productive.

That is your opinion.

And no, I'm not short-sighted or misguided, I was the last person out of my friends to defend Moyes and I said it will take time, unfortunately Moyes and his staff haven't given any indication that things are improving, I am basing my opinion on the previous 7 months and the overall performance of the team, these are facts that I'm basing my opinion on. The main issue with a lot of fans is that there is no sign of progression, I'd happily look forward to the summer and next season if the team were genuinely looking like something new was being tried ie formation (4-2-3-1) for example, some progress being made, a clear direction for the club but as it stands, none of this is in place..

The performances have gotten worse and to what seems to be the outcome, out of all competitions by February, totally unacceptable..

I don't think Moyes will be sacked though and of course I will be supporting the team no matter what but if the remainder of the games end up as they have been going, I'd be surprised if Moyes position wasn't seriously in doubt, which it rightfully should be..

Your Airbag

Macca07 wrote: »

I can't wait to get FM14 up and running and completely overhaul the whole team to see how I get on.

I suggested a FM14 or FIFA 14 league within the thread to settle squad and player arguments with the winner having bragging rights due to his obvious managerial Jose like expertise

Nobody took the bait.

Pro. F

No

Red Crow wrote: »

I think we need 5-6 players. RB, 2 x CB, LB, 2 x CM. We may even need a striker depending on what happens with van Persie/Hernandez in the Summer. I think our depth off the bench is poor considering Valencia, Young, Cleverley etc. are all regularly used players on this team. I think the squad is in bad shape.

We definitely need a RB and full-back cover. We need one or two central midfielders and that's it. The squad is not perfect, but if you go though any squad in the league you will find issues like that. Stating that the squad is quite a bit off good is utter bollocks.

Speculating on players that will need to be replaced in the summer (Vidic, possibly RvP or Hernandez) is irrelevant to the question of how good the squad is that Moyes is working with.

Red Crow wrote: »

I'd ague that. I think the only major difference this year is that Carrick has taken a huge step backwards and RVP isn't nearly as effective. Both have been injured for various periods too.

Of course you would argue it. And you would be wrong. The team won the league last season, this season they are in 7th and breaking losing records regularly. The idea that the team last year were playing as badly as this is nonsense.

v3ttel

Macca07 wrote: »

I can't wait to get FM14 up and running and completely overhaul the whole team to see how I get on.

Shur didn't I do a bit of analysis (using the latest in football simulation technology on next generation hardware) on possible outcomes of our transfer/managerial dealings, over the weekend.....

My managers name was Louis Van Gaal, and after signing Piszczek, Garay, Coentrao, Modric, Reus & Benteke, United are top of the league. I can only assume our lead would be even bigger if I had the option of having De Boer as number 2.

Science, b!tch

spiralism

No

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Thats the best arguement Moyes fans come out with, that you're a fake fan etc, I wouldnt read into it.

Some load of bollocks that is too. We're Man United fans here, not David Moyes fans and people would do well to remember that.

Macca07

v3ttel wrote: »

Shur didn't I do a bit of analysis (using the latest in football simulation technology on next generation hardware) on possible outcomes of our transfer/managerial dealings, over the weekend.....

My managers name was Louis Van Gaal, and after signing Piszczek, Garay, Coentrao, Modric, Reus & Benteke, United are top of the league. I can only assume our lead would be even bigger if I had the option of having De Boer as number 2.

Science, b!tch

You could put those 6 players into Swindon Town and they'd win the league, just saying.

Did u have Reus playing CM by any chance?

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its not, we have needed an overhaul for a while now. Just because Fergie could work his magic with them doesn't make them individually good.

Poor players and good ones that have regressed
Clev
Carrick
Young
Val
Evra
Buttner

Oap's who needed replacing seasons ago
Giggs
Rio

Scholes could get a mention even though he is retired because he was so vital but never replaced

Players who are either okay but not world class and have lots to prove
Raf
Kagawa (hasn't been for us at least)
Jones
Fletch (good but may be done as a week in week out option)
Januzaj (promising but lots to prove)
Fellaini
Welbeck

World class
Rooney
RVP
DDG
Mata (based on CFC form)
Vidic (on his way out)
Chico (imo, could be in the ok section)


Thats a lot of players not in the World Class category and most of our starting eleven.

How people can compare our squad to other squads and gloss over the obvious differences.

The ball was dropped and left on the floor for a long time. Papering up the cracks was a phrase mentioned on here a lot before Moyes came in.

The squad needs big investment. Its beyond obvious.

Oh no, we only have five world class players? That's terrible!

Compare our squad to any in the league and you won't find a big shortfall. To describe this squad as a long way off good is an absurd exaggeration.

TheDoc

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Id like Moyes to get more time but it really is frustrating and annoying seeing people who share my opinion belittling others as they think it's a fans duty to blindly support a club and not to criticise anything about them.
If nothing else, being allowed to have open and (arguably!) constructive debates and discussions is something the soccer forum as a whole can be proud of.

Agree with this.

And considering being pro Moyes essentially makes us look MENTAL I'd be wary of lashing out at others to be honest.

keane2097

No

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh no, we only have five world class players? That's terrible!

Compare our squad to any in the league and you won't find a big shortfall. To describe this squad as a long way off good is an absurd exaggeration.

Calling Hernandez and Vidic world class is a major stretch. Of the rest, RVP and Rooney are both strikers and only fair in other positions, if you want to argue Rooney as a number ten then you have him and Mata competing for the one spot with Mata a good winger rather than a world class one.

Realistically, RVP and Rooney are excellent strikers, Mata and Kagawa are excellent 10s, Fellaini and Carrick are good CMs, everyone else is pretty so-so. DDG obviously very good as well, so you probably have three positions on the pitch where you can put in excellent players, GK, 10 and striker. Everywhere else is decent to downright terrible in Evra's case.

There is plenty of passable back-up which is what you seem to be arguing, but the first 11 is of the same quality in many positions.

I'd be interested in what you would send out as United's best 11.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh no, we only have five world class players? That's terrible!

Compare our squad to any in the league and you won't find a big shortfall. To describe this squad as a long way off good is an absurd exaggeration.

Sure Just ignore the other staggeringly poor, old and not good enough players mentioned. Yes the five should get us through.

I mean they'll never get injured or anything. They have all been available this season when we needed them.

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

Calling Hernandez and Vidic world class is a major stretch. Of the rest, RVP and Rooney are both strikers and only fair in other positions, if you want to argue Rooney as a number ten then you have him and Mata competing for the one spot with Mata a good winger rather than a world class one.

Realistically, RVP and Rooney are excellent strikers, Mata and Kagawa are excellent 10s, Fellaini and Carrick are good CMs, everyone else is pretty so-so. DDG obviously very good as well, so you probably have three positions on the pitch where you can put in excellent players, GK, 10 and striker. Everywhere else is decent to downright terrible in Evra's case.

There is plenty of passable back-up which is what you seem to be arguing, but the first 11 is of the same quality in many positions.

I'd be interested in what you would send out as United's best 11.

Agreed, Chico was imo and I left a caveat for Vidic. So its three and one of which is a GK.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Sure Just ignore the other staggeringly poor, old and not good enough players mentioned. Yes the five should get us through.

I mean they'll never get injured or anything. They have all been available this season when we needed them.

As I said, compare our squad to any in the league any in the league and you won't find a big shortfall. To describe this squad as a long way off good is an absurd exaggeration.

keane2097

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Agreed, Chico was imo and I left a caveat for Vidic. So its three and one of which is a GK.

Even if you were to grant Hernandez - and I rate him nowhere near FWIW - you're still talking about three of them for one position which isn't particularly helpful when you're talking about half a team of players who are of good backup to decent pro quality.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

As I said, compare our squad to any in the league any in the league and you won't find a big shortfall. To describe this squad as a long way off good is an absurd exaggeration.

I never said a long way off good, I said it needs and overhaul. If you compare our defense and MF to other top teams in the league we do not come of well.

keane2097 wrote: »

Even if you were to grant Hernandez - and I rate him nowhere near FWIW - you're still talking about three of them for one position which isn't particularly helpful when you're talking about half a team of players who are of good backup to decent pro quality.

Three from one position is correct. We are overloaded with good players in attack and a imbalance everywhere else.

NukaCola

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

World class
Rooney
RVP
DDG
Mata (based on CFC form)
Vidic (on his way out)
Chico (imo, could be in the ok section)

What would be your definition of World class?

Paulegend

NukaCola wrote: »

What would be your definition of World class?

a very wrong one

Mikeyt086

No

NukaCola wrote: »

What would be your definition of World class?

This exact question gets asked so much it may as well be mandatory when you ask for access to the soccer forum.

Headshot

No

Rooney WC? Bloody hell

Paulegend

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

This exact question gets asked so much it may as well be mandatory when you ask for access to the soccer forum.

i think the term should be banned altogether from boards

NukaCola

No

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

This exact question gets asked so much it may as well be mandatory when you ask for access to the soccer forum.

Its a stupid term anyway, would like the poster to justify why he thinks certain players are of a "World class" standard. A valid question IMO.

Your Airbag

NukaCola wrote: »

What would be your definition of World class?

Amongst the best in the world. Chico may have been a jump. Vidic was at least and Rooney and RVP are.

How would you define it?

ericzeking

spiralism wrote: »

Some load of bollocks that is too. We're Man United fans here, not David Moyes fans and people would do well to remember that.

I don't think there are many that are 'David Moyes fans' per se, those who are pro Moyes are United fans too, we/they just have a different idea of what is right for the club and probably are more patient.
Moyes was/is the long term plan...ideally 6 years plus. Louis Van Gaal, who seems to be the latest flavour would be a stop gap 18 month plan....Mourinho would have been a 3 year plan with little focus on anything but the first team, yes we would have gone close in the league for a year or two but at what cost? I take the point it would have then been easier for the following manager.

It's a results orientated business but there can be a bigger picture than just winning on a particular Saturday.

I thought Moyes was a good appointment at the time and I'm still willing to give him time, I didn't think it would be quite as bad as it has been results wise though (I think performances can really only be judged when he gets players who want to play for him as there are more than a couple of the current crop who just won't) and I have begun to waiver on my initial 2 year stance whereby I'm now looking at next November/December as to when a change may be neccessary.

There is often alot of talk here about what type of fan different guys are, I'm a fan of United, I'm not just a fan of having a winning team every Saturday. It's great when we are winning but I like to think I/we follow United for reasons other than just the fact they were good...style, tradition, romance, Irish links, etc. In fact, I became a United fan partly because of my uncles and partly because in the 80s everyone my age followed Liverpool and being contrary f#cker and tending to go against the grain I took up with United...little did I know what would follow and I'd spend years being called a glory-hole.

Now more than ever in my life (I was a fan in Atkinsons time, but was young) United need my support, if it's going to have any chance the manager needs our support.

By the by I'm quite enjoying batting away all the Liverpool and Arsenal fans...behind their jibes you can see they are still so insecure and afraid, they know we will be back.

Your Airbag

Paulegend wrote: »

a very wrong one

Define it for us then oh wise one

bangkok

Headshot wrote: »

Rooney WC? Bloody hell

of course he is....if rooney is not world class I don't know who you would call world class apart from Ronaldo messi

Paulegend

Your Airbag wrote: »

Define it for us then oh wise one

far from wise mate

they are top quality players but the term world class is very subjective and a term i have been on the wrong side of debating many times on boards so dont worry im not trying to be a smart ass against you

i think to be fair the term world class if it could ever really be used it would only contain about 5 players on the planet at the very most

if the term exists then Ronaldo and Messi are it

under that you have ibra ribery suarez along with hundreds of top players like aguero rooney rvp falcao cavani etc

the term is subjective but surely the term if existed would be the top couple of players in the world.

surely some of the players youve mentioned arent in the top 10 in the world?

Kerrydude1981

No

Bit of light entertainment

http://strettynews.com/manager-hunt-try-as-i-might/

Paulegend

bangkok wrote: »

of course he is....if rooney is not world class I don't know who you would call world class apart from Ronaldo messi

if there are 10 - 20 players better than you in the world surely your not world class

rob316

The term World Class gets thrown around far too often. My definition of the term is a player who is probably in our around the top 10 in the world in their position. In the league currently off the top of my head RVP, Suarez, Aguero, and Yaya Toure are genuine world class.
While players like Rooney, DDG and Hernandez are top class they are not world class.

NukaCola

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Amongst the best in the world. Chico may have been a jump. Vidic was at least and Rooney and RVP are.

How would you define it?

I don't really use the term but i see where your coming from. The players on that list are no doubt very good players. Its always interesting to hear someones take on whats WC or not.

ericzeking

Wayne Rooney is a top, top player .....Jeff

Your Airbag

Paulegend wrote: »

far from wise mate

they are top quality players but the term world class is very subjective and a term i have been on the wrong side of debating many times on boards so dont worry im not trying to be a smart ass against you

i think to be fair the term world class if it could ever really be used it would only contain about 5 players on the planet at the very most

if the term exists then Ronaldo and Messi are it

under that you have ibra ribery suarez along with hundreds of top players like aguero rooney rvp falcao cavani etc

the term is subjective but surely the term if existed would be the top couple of players in the world.

surely some of the players youve mentioned arent in the top 10 in the world?

Why is there a top ten limit, thats a bit silly

I would class Messi and Ronaldo on another level. Living legends or something. World class are you players who come good the majority of the time. Your Scwheinsteigers, Lampards, Gerrards, Keanes, Shearers, Henrys, Augeros etc

There are plenty of world class players. Limiting it to a chosen number makes no sense.

Nolars

No

World class is someone who has the ability to perform a certain task at exceptional levels, messi and ronaldo scoring goals, Iniesta and scholes at passing, VDS and PS at goalkeeping. Rooney is a great player but I dunno if ya would put him as world class. What can he do that not many others can?

bangkok

Paulegend wrote: »

if there are 10 - 20 players better than you in the world surely your not world class

sure there could be 50 world class players in the world out of the 265million that play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

I never said a long way off good, I said it needs and overhaul.

You entered the conversations by defending the statement that Red Crow made about the squad being quite a bit off good.

Here is how the conversation went:

Red Crow wrote: »

Everybody accepts that we are quite a bit off having a good squad.

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't accept that. I think that statement is bollocks.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its not, we have needed an overhaul for a while now...

(emphasis mine)

---

Your Airbag wrote: »

If you compare our defense and MF to other top teams in the league we do not come of well.

We have a better group of centre-backs than city and a much better goal keeper. Our group of centre-backs is better than Chelsea's. The group of midfielders in our squad is only a bit behind Chelsea's. The difference is that those teams are playing much better because they have much better managers.

sea_monkey

No

Nolars wrote: »

World class is someone who has the ability to perform a certain task at exceptional levels, messi and ronaldo scoring goals, Iniesta and scholes at passing, VDS and PS at goalkeeping. Rooney is a great player but I dunno if ya would put him as world class. What can he do that not many others can?

grannys

bangkok

Nolars wrote: »

World class is someone who has the ability to perform a certain task at exceptional levels, messi and ronaldo scoring goals, Iniesta and scholes at passing, VDS and PS at goalkeeping. Rooney is a great player but I dunno if ya would put him as world class. What can he do that not many others can?

scores goals!!!!

Nolars

No

bangkok wrote: »

scores goals!!!!

RVP is a better finisher and goal scorer so is Suarez etc etc

bangkok

Nolars wrote: »

RVP is a better finisher and goal scorer so is Suarez etc etc

and they are all world class....

Nolars

No

bangkok wrote: »

and they are all world class....

So what you are saying is all those are better at scoring goals than Rooney and they are world class, So that means Rooney is world class at scoring goals because he is worse than them? Love the logic..

Fenix

Pro. F wrote: »

We have a better group of centre-backs than city and a much better goal keeper. Our group of centre-backs is better than Chelsea's. The group of midfielders in our squad is only a bit behind Chelsea's. The difference is that those teams are playing much better because they have much better managers.

I agree that we have a better GK in DDG, but our center-backs are not better than Citys or Chelseas, I'd say were quite a way off both. Our midfield is currently on a par with mid-table teams. I'd go as far as to say Southampton have a stronger midfield.

bullvine

No

Transport yourself back to early 2010, remember Rooneys form then, the British media were calling him the best player on the planet.. Not saying that he was but back then he was definitely world class at that time..

bangkok

Nolars wrote: »

So what you are saying is all those are better at scoring goals than Rooney and they are world class, So that means Rooney is world class at scoring goals because he is worse than them? Love the logic..

iniesta is classed as an attacking midfielder yet doesn't score many goals... so by your logic he is not world class then??!! rooney also has a world class work rate higher than both rvp and suarez..

Nolars

No

bangkok wrote: »

iniesta is classed as an attacking midfielder yet doesn't score many goals... so by your logic he is not world class then??!! rooney also has a world class work rate higher than both rvp and suarez..

I said Iniesta is world class at passing... Oh yea 300k a week for world class running around the place. great trait to have.

Agueroooo

bangkok wrote: »

iniesta is classed as an attacking midfielder yet doesn't score many goals... so by your logic he is not world class then??!! rooney also has a world class work rate higher than both rvp and suarez..

you didn't just compare Iniesta to Rooney did you?

and you didn't just say Rooney work rate exceeds Suarez's did you?

NukaCola

No

Agueroooo wrote: »

you didn't just compare Iniesta to Rooney did you?

and you didn't just say Rooney work rate exceeds Suarez's did you?

I wouldn't have bothered......

keane2097

No

Pro. F wrote: »

The group of midfielders in our squad is only a bit behind Chelsea's. The difference is that those teams are playing much better because they have much better managers.

Is it not because whatever about "group of midfielders in the squad" the group of midfielders that starts all the games in the two teams is pretty different quality-wise:

Matic, Ramires --- Schurrle - Hazard - Oscar

Carrick, Cleverley --- Mata - Rooney - Januzaj

From the last league games ^

You might pick Mata from the United midfield but it would be pretty close between him and Schurrle as inside winger types.

Carrick is probably the closest of the rest of them but Matic is a good bit better than him IMO. Ramires is excellent, Cleverley is below average. Hazard vs Rooney is no contest at 10 or anywhere else across the second line, Oscar is miles ahead of Januzaj.

I don't think that's particularly close at all. I don't think Fellaini is as good as Matic or Ramires either.

Chagan

No

This may be too simple but I'd consider "World Class" to mean if a World XI were to be selected they would be in the team.

Not everybody is going to have the exact same XI so it leaves room for debate while still setting some kind of standard over who is and isn't good enough.