Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Agueroooo

bullvine wrote: »

Transport yourself back to early 2010, remember Rooneys form then, the British media were calling him the best player on the planet.. Not saying that he was but back then he was definitely world class at that time..

Rooney was consistently good up to his 'Utd need to show ambition' manoeuvre.

he became a bit hot and cold from 2010 til today- whilst those players that he was on the same platform as in 2010 have past him by.

Rooney is an absolutely fantastic talent, no denying that, but he does not apply it as regularly enough as those on the same wage bracket as he is.

keane2097

No

It's not worth arguing the definition of "world class" any time really, but particularly in this instance when Your Airbag just meant it to mean "players you're not looking to upgrade".

Pro. F

No

keane2097 wrote: »

Calling Hernandez and Vidic world class is a major stretch. Of the rest, RVP and Rooney are both strikers and only fair in other positions, if you want to argue Rooney as a number ten then you have him and Mata competing for the one spot with Mata a good winger rather than a world class one.

Realistically, RVP and Rooney are excellent strikers, Mata and Kagawa are excellent 10s, Fellaini and Carrick are good CMs, everyone else is pretty so-so. DDG obviously very good as well, so you probably have three positions on the pitch where you can put in excellent players, GK, 10 and striker. Everywhere else is decent to downright terrible in Evra's case.

There is plenty of passable back-up which is what you seem to be arguing, but the first 11 is of the same quality in many positions.

I'd be interested in what you would send out as United's best 11.

I didn't included Chico in my own reckoning, but Vidic is definitely world class.

The other world class players do overlap in the attacking positions to make the squad options unbalanced. That type of imbalance is present in the other quality squads in the league.

The first 11 is weaker than City's , Chelsea's and maybe, Arsenal's. Mostly because of Evra and Buttner being the only options at left-back. But that's it, a weaker first 11 than two of the best teams in the league. Then there is the rest of the squad which is strong. But those issues in the squad regularly get exaggerated to the point where people are honestly trying to argue that this is a poor squad.

The first 11 I would put out would be something like

DDG
Raf Smalling Vidic Evra
Mata Carrick Fellaini/Clev Adnan
Rooney
RvP

Or you could drop one of Rooney/RvP for Mata to go central and bring Nani in. If we had a decent manager who had replaced Evra and bought another CM that first 11 would be up there with the best in the league. As it is, it's just a bit behind that.

Agueroooo

Chagan wrote: »

This may be too simple but I'd consider "World Class" to mean if a World XI were to be selected they would be in the team.

.

that is pretty much how I do it in my head but I pick two players for each position.

keane2097

No

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't included Chico in my own reckoning, but Vidic is definitely world class.

The other world class players do overlap in the attacking positions to make the squad options unbalanced. That type of imbalance is present in the other quality squads in the league.

The first 11 is weaker than City's , Chelsea's and maybe, Arsenal's. Mostly because of Evra and Buttner being the only options at left-back. But that's it, a weaker first 11 than two of the best teams in the league. Then there is the rest of the squad which is strong. But those issues in the squad regularly get exaggerated to the point where people are honestly trying to argue that this is a poor squad.

The first 11 I would put out would be something like

DDG
Raf Smalling Vidic Evra
Mata Carrick Fellaini/Clev Adnan
Rooney
RvP

Or you could drop one of Rooney/RvP for Mata to go central and bring Nani in. If we had a decent manager who had replaced Evra and bought another CM that first 11 would be up there with the best in the league. As it is, it's just a bit behind that.

There's no question the first 11 is worse than Arsenal's IMO. I think if you went through the Spurs squad man for man with United's they're underperforming more than United are, would take the Spurs squad on paper any day of the week.

Pro. F

No

keane2097 wrote: »

Is it not because whatever about "group of midfielders in the squad" the group of midfielders that starts all the games in the two teams is pretty different quality-wise:

Matic, Ramires --- Schurrle - Hazard - Oscar

Carrick, Cleverley --- Mata - Rooney - Januzaj

From the last league games ^

You might pick Mata from the United midfield but it would be pretty close between him and Schurrle as inside winger types.

Carrick is probably the closest of the rest of them but Matic is a good bit better than him IMO. Ramires is excellent, Cleverley is below average. Hazard vs Rooney is no contest at 10 or anywhere else across the second line, Oscar is miles ahead of Januzaj.

I don't think that's particularly close at all. I don't think Fellaini is as good as Matic or Ramires either.

With a Mourhinho in charge of United and Moyes in charge of Everton I think your assessment of the players' quality on both teams would change pretty quickly.

keane2097

No

Pro. F wrote: »

With a Mourhinho in charge of United and Moyes in charge of Everton I think your assessment of the players' quality on both teams would change pretty quickly.

Ah stop, I'm not too blind to judge player quality just because I don't agree with you.

United have two problems - a manager playing terrible tactics and players that aren't up to muster. There's no doubt that if Moyes sent the right team out in the right configuration they'd play a lot better, as we've seen the couple of times he accidentally backed into playing Kagawa at 10, but let's not pretend I'm not capable of judging Carrick relative to Matic, Ramires relative to Cleverley etc because of six months of United having a bad manager.

The_Kew_Tour

No

I did something like this before, but I have it around

80% management fault
20% the players fault

adjusted a little each way maybe.

No question we have seen that 3-4 players that we have simple do not cut it and really lack the talent and balls to be a United player.

But at end of day Moyes has dropped players too that should have been ahead of others selected and its down to him for poor tactics, poor team selection and some amateur dealings in transfer market last summer.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

You entered the conversations by defending the statement that Red Crow made about the squad being quite a bit off good.

Here is how the conversation went:



(emphasis mine)

---

We have a better group of centre-backs than city and a much better goal keeper. Our group of centre-backs is better than Chelsea's. The group of midfielders in our squad is only a bit behind Chelsea's. The difference is that those teams are playing much better because they have much better managers.

I replied to you saying the statement was bollocks. Going back to tie everything I said to a previous post is not something I'm going to get into.

Its clear we need work done on the squad.

Vidic and Rio are finished. Raf is a quesrtion mark. Smalling and Jones maybe the future and we have Evra and Buttner. Our defense does not compare as well as you say.

I won't even go near our MF and wingers.

Your Airbag

Chagan wrote: »

This may be too simple but I'd consider "World Class" to mean if a World XI were to be selected they would be in the team.

Not everybody is going to have the exact same XI so it leaves room for debate while still setting some kind of standard over who is and isn't good enough.

Agueroooo wrote: »

that is pretty much how I do it in my head but I pick two players for each position.

World XI makes no sense just like the top ten stuff. There are lots more than ten world class players in the world. Why exclude them because of a first eleven when they all play well each week? We have 3-5 world class players on our team alone. There is more than 10 in the EPL.

RasTa

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

Am I the only one that doesn't want Rene anywhere near the club again? Our play has been shlte for the past 3 years and he was a big part of that.

keane2097 wrote: »

People repeatedly missing this very obvious fact surprises me.

1st, 2nd, 1st.

I hear some people saying the same nonsense about Chelsea's football this season

keane2097

No

RasTa wrote: »

1st, 2nd, 1st.

I hear some people saying the same nonsense about Chelsea's football this season

Personally not too bothered about where United finish, soccer is pretty much just entertainment for me so someone as passionate about it as you is well entitled to different priorities, but I think United have been dreadful to watch for years.

rob316

Your Airbag wrote: »

World XI makes no sense just like the top ten stuff. There are lots more than ten world class players in the world. Why exclude them because of a first eleven when they all play well each week? We have 3-5 world class players on our team alone. There is more than 10 in the EPL.

But ye don't, RVP is and maybe Rooney. Saying Vidic is world class is like saying Gerrard is. You need to be talking about the now not 2/3 seasons ago when Vidic clearly was world class.

If ye had 3-5 world class players in your team ye wouldn't be where ye are now, its all relevant.

In the league right now RVP, Suarez, Yaya Toure, Aguero, Kompany and Ozil on his day, are probably the only genuine world class players.
Then you have players like Mata, Hazard, Rooney, Silva and Cazorla on that level below.

Whatsisname

No

@paddypower wrote:

David Moyes has given up for Lent

Made me chuckle :pac:

yabadabado

rob316 wrote: »

But ye don't, RVP is and maybe Rooney. Saying Vidic is world class is like saying Gerrard is. You need to be talking about the now not 2/3 seasons ago when Vidic clearly was world class.

If ye had 3-5 world class players in your team ye wouldn't be where ye are now, its all relevant.

In the league right now RVP, Suarez, Yaya Toure, Aguero, Kompany and Ozil on his day, are probably the only genuine world class players.
Then you have players like Mata, Hazard, Rooney, Silva and Cazorla on that level below.

I would rate Hazard and Mata higher than Ozil.

Pro. F

No

keane2097 wrote: »

There's no question the first 11 is worse than Arsenal's IMO. I think if you went through the Spurs squad man for man with United's they're underperforming more than United are, would take the Spurs squad on paper any day of the week.

I rate the Spurs squad highly. I think with a quality manager they should be able to take on any team in the league. So I'd have them in the group of United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Liverpool, as amongst the best squads in the league.

That doesn't come close to justifying the claims that United's squad is anything less than good.

keane2097 wrote: »

Ah stop, I'm not too blind to judge player quality just because I don't agree with you.

United have two problems - a manager playing terrible tactics and players that aren't up to muster. There's no doubt that if Moyes sent the right team out in the right configuration they'd play a lot better, as we've seen the couple of times he accidentally backed into playing Kagawa at 10, but let's not pretend I'm not capable of judging Carrick relative to Matic, Ramires relative to Cleverley etc because of six months of United having a bad manager.

Fair enough, we disagree on judging these players. IIrc we have debated about Carrick before and it has been clear that we completely disagree on how to judge CMs, so we probably aren't going to have the same opinions on players very often.

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

I replied to you saying the statement was bollocks. Going back to tie everything I said to a previous post is not something I'm going to get into.

Yes you replied and you made it clear that you agreed with Red Crow that we are "quite a bit off having a good squad."

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its clear we need work done on the squad.

Vidic and Rio are finished. Raf is a quesrtion mark. Smalling and Jones maybe the future and we have Evra and Buttner. Our defense does not compare as well as you say.

I won't even go near our MF and wingers.

I agree that works needs to be done on the squad. Every squad in the league needs work done on it.

That doesn't change the fact that saying we are quite a bit off having a good squad is bollocks.

Pro. F

No

Fenix wrote: »

I agree that we have a better GK in DDG, but our center-backs are not better than Citys or Chelseas, I'd say were quite a way off both. Our midfield is currently on a par with mid-table teams. I'd go as far as to say Southampton have a stronger midfield.

I disagree with all your assessments and I hate David Moyes for causing this debate.

Will I Amnt

No

Funny how many interpretations of world class there are. Mine is a bit broader these days so as not to get into as many arguments over it :pac:

For me it's just somebody that wouldn't look out of place in a world XI.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

That doesn't change the fact that saying we are quite a bit off having a good squad is bollocks.

Fact me hole. Its your opinion and its wrong.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

For me it's just somebody that wouldn't look out of place in a world XI.

Good point, RVP, Suarez and many good players were not in FIFA XI team of the year. Thats why they do a 2nd and 3rd XI because there are many world class players all over the world in many leagues not just eleven or a top ten.

bucketybuck

No

RasTa wrote: »

1st, 2nd, 1st.

I hear some people saying the same nonsense about Chelsea's football this season

You might be happy to settle for winning while playing poorly, but my expectations are set a little higher.

Not to mention an obvious fact, that had coaches such as Rene addressed the causes of the poor play in those "1st, 2nd and 1st" seasons, we perhaps wouldn't be in the pitiful state we are now.

RasTa

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

You might be happy to settle for winning while playing poorly, but my expectations are set a little higher.

Not to mention an obvious fact, that had coaches such as Rene addressed the causes of the poor play in those "1st, 2nd and 1st" seasons, we perhaps wouldn't be in the pitiful state we are now.

You don't come close to winning 3 in a row whilst playing poorly. It's as silly as blaming Fergie.

Your Airbag

Moyes scouted Kroos and Hertha Berlin defender Ginter this weekend past according to the independent.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/moyes-on-german-scouting-mission-to-watch-kroos-and-ginter-30062095.html

Pro. F

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Fact me hole. Its your opinion and its wrong.

Cool. Thanks for the laugh.

Pro. F

No

RasTa wrote: »

You don't come close to winning 3 in a row whilst playing poorly. It's as silly as blaming Fergie.

It's all relative. The relatively poor play we saw in recent years under Fergie was in comparison to the best teams in the world. Now our play is poor in comparison to the top four.

Red Crow

Pro. F wrote: »

We definitely need a RB and full-back cover. We need one or two central midfielders and that's it. The squad is not perfect, but if you go though any squad in the league you will find issues like that. Stating that the squad is quite a bit off good is utter bollocks.

Speculating on players that will need to be replaced in the summer (Vidic, possibly RvP or Hernandez) is irrelevant to the question of how good the squad is that Moyes is working with.



Of course you would argue it. And you would be wrong. The team won the league last season, this season they are in 7th and breaking losing records regularly. The idea that the team last year were playing as badly as this is nonsense.

Just because we won the league last season doesn't mean we have a good squad this season.


Goalkeepers
De Gea - Very good keeper
Lindegaard - Good back up
Amos - Don't know enough

Defenders
Rafael - Inconsistent, poor defensively, gone backwards in the last 18 months.
Evra - Good going forward but a liability defensively.
Jones - Good player, versatile
Ferdinand - Finished at the top level
Evans - Up and down couple of years. Seems to have taken a step backwards
Vidic - Poor on the ball, slow pace, finished as a top defender
Smalling - Not a RB, seems to have taken a step backwards in his development
Buttner - Not an adequate replacement at LB, probably not a PL player
Varela, Keane - Don't know enough about either

Midfielders
Cleverley - Not good enough, even as a back up.
Carrick - Mix of injuries and form has him fragile. Taken a huge step back this season.
Fellaini - Not seen enough. Good player for Everton. Needs to be given a chance.
Fletcher - Good player but his best days are gone.
Kagawa - Should be given a consistent run
Januzaj - Promising
Nani - Injured
Valencia - Finished
Young - Decent back up. Not a starter
Mata - Great player
Giggs - Should be retired by now

Forwards
van Persie - Our best player. Not in top form. Doesn't seem to be happy either
Rooney - Good in flashes. I think overall his play hampers the team from the role in which he's currently deployed.
Hernandez - Should get more game time
Welbeck - Needs to become more clinical but a good player

De Gea
RB CB Jones LB
Fellaini CM
Mata Rooney Januzaj
van Persie

That's four first team players needed right away. Then you would probably want another bit of cover at LB added to buying a starter. Two CMs (one starter, one developmental/squad player). Maybe a striker depending on van Persie/Hernandez.

Pro. F

No

Red Crow wrote: »

Just because we won the league last season doesn't mean we have a good squad this season.


Goalkeepers
De Gea - Very good keeper
Lindegaard - Good back up
Amos - Don't know enough

Defenders
Rafael - Inconsistent, poor defensively, gone backwards in the last 18 months.
Evra - Good going forward but a liability defensively.
Jones - Good player, versatile
Ferdinand - Finished at the top level
Evans - Up and down couple of years. Seems to have taken a step backwards
Vidic - Poor on the ball, slow pace, finished as a top defender
Smalling - Not a RB, seems to have taken a step backwards in his development
Buttner - Not an adequate replacement at LB, probably not a PL player
Varela, Keane - Don't know enough about either

Midfielders
Cleverley - Not good enough, even as a back up.
Carrick - Mix of injuries and form has him fragile. Taken a huge step back this season.
Fellaini - Not seen enough. Good player for Everton. Needs to be given a chance.
Fletcher - Good player but his best days are gone.
Kagawa - Should be given a consistent run
Januzaj - Promising
Nani - Injured
Valencia - Finished
Young - Decent back up. Not a starter
Mata - Great player
Giggs - Should be retired by now

Forwards
van Persie - Our best player. Not in top form. Doesn't seem to be happy either
Rooney - Good in flashes. I think overall his play hampers the team from the role in which he's currently deployed.
Hernandez - Should get more game time
Welbeck - Needs to become more clinical but a good player

De Gea
RB CB Jones LB
Fellaini CM
Mata Rooney Januzaj
van Persie

That's four first team players needed right away. Then you would probably want another bit of cover at LB added to buying a starter. Two CMs (one starter, one developmental/squad player). Maybe a striker depending on van Persie/Hernandez.

We could go through any squad in the league and pick out flaws.

You are obviously biased beyond reasoning with the way you have analysed this squad. Particular lol at the claim that Rafael has gone backwards in the last 18 months.

Peter Flynt

Pro. F wrote: »

Particular lol at the claim that Rafael has gone backwards in the last 18 months.

Why?

He was bad enough 18 months ago.

Pro. F

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Why?

He was bad enough 18 months ago.

He had an excellent season last season. Now this season he has regressed, just like the majority of the squad. I wonder what has caused that?

Peter Flynt

Pro. F wrote: »

He had an excellent season last season. Now this season he has regressed, just like the majority of the squad. I wonder what has caused that?

Clearly not Rafael. . . That excellent season - must have missed that.

Pro. F

No

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Clearly not Rafael. . . That excellent season - must have missed that.

Yeah, you must have.

Red Crow

Pro. F wrote: »

We could go through any squad in the league and pick out flaws.

You are obviously biased beyond reasoning with the way you have analysed this squad. Particular lol at the claim that Rafael has gone backwards in the last 18 months.

You're the guy who slated Carrick when he was good, defended Cleverley to the hilt and now thinks that Rafael was excellent.

Less of the snide replies too. It's a bit cringe.

bucketybuck

No

RasTa wrote: »

You don't come close to winning 3 in a row whilst playing poorly. It's as silly as blaming Fergie.

You have your head in the sand if you think everything was just fine over the last three years.

The deficiencies in the squad were apparent for years. Or don't you remember before the European cup final the dismay at trying to predict a lineup that didn't have Giggs in midfield? (That went as well as could be expected)

You know why so many people talk about the season Nani and Berbatov bailed us out repeatedly? Its because we were playing rubbish and needed bailing out repeatedly. Remember the Blackburn debacle? Hey, do you remember playing so crap we needed to ask Paul Scholes to come out of retirement?

The results were always there under Fergie but don't kid yourself, the performances on the field steadily got worse and worse over the past 3/4 years. The midfield was always the obvious reason for that but the former coaches have to answer for it also.

edgecutter

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

Moyes scouted Kroos and Hertha Berlin defender Ginter this weekend past according to the independent.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/moyes-on-german-scouting-mission-to-watch-kroos-and-ginter-30062095.html

How many times does he need to see kroos before he realises he is what we need? He should be at Carrington sorting the team and his tactics out.

Kylo Ren

Rafael was brilliant last season. How can anyone dispute that?

Pro. F

No

Red Crow wrote: »

You're the guy who slated Carrick when he was good, defended Cleverley to the hilt and now thinks that Rafael was excellent.

Less of the snide replies too. It's a bit cringe.

Carrick was wildly overrated for many seasons.
Cleverley has been ridiculously scapegoated this season.
Rafael was excellent last season.

Yes, those are all my opinions. I am indeed that guy.

Your Airbag

Red Crow wrote: »

You're the guy who slated Carrick when he was good, defended Cleverley to the hilt and now thinks that Rafael was excellent.

Less of the snide replies too. It's a bit cringe.

Better off just to leave it. Pro F holds many ridiculous opinions which he will defend into the ground with snide remarks and getting the last word in at all times, this to him equals some sort of victory.

He doesn't see our squad as worse than other in the league. Our wingers are terrible our MF a non entity and our defense aging and the world class players we have are mainly in one area with an imbalance every where else.

Our MF problem hasn't been addresses for seasons. We have been asking for this for seasons and Valencia and Evras form questioned before this. Now we are getting some Moyes is the reason for this crap.

This poster also claimed Clev would be world class and when reminded of this lately said he still has hope. His barometer for judging players is obviously way way off.

sea_monkey

No

Carrick has always been crap, just because the other teams in the EPL were really crap last season and he got away with it. he didnt in europe.

His style of play has ruined united. slow and cautious and it has infected all our other midfielders.
This along with rooney constantly coming into midfield to ping long balls out wide (sure it looks pretty but defenders have all the time in the world to set up for whats coming) and valencias terrible crossing is what we are seeing now.

Kagawa and mata linking up through the middle with a rooney and RVP who stay up front in their positions is what we need.

watch when united cross the ball, the players dont stop to look up its just hit and hope.

Fenix

Red Crow wrote: »

Just because we won the league last season doesn't mean we have a good squad this season. ....

I don't think I've ever agree'd with someone else's squad evaluation more. Bang on for me.

Nalz

No

Carrick was always crap?

Fùck. Off.

Rayne Wooney

Yeah the "this squad cantered to a 1st place finish last season, of course it's very good" argument doesn't mean much to me.

As I've said before if we had a manager who didn't try and hold on to leads and played better football I think we'd be at least level with 4th now, but our defence and midfield are in a bad way, I haven't put much thought into where I'd rank us in those areas but I think we need at least 3 world class players and 2 European class players to fix the problem.

The_Kew_Tour

No

The thread the last few days to me.



Some awful tripe in here at minute

Dicky Pride

No

It's because there hasn't been a game in a long time. And from my experience, the longer the gap is between matches, the more positive/deluded people get. It's very frustrating.

spiralism

No

ericzeking wrote: »

I don't think there are many that are 'David Moyes fans' per se, those who are pro Moyes are United fans too, we/they just have a different idea of what is right for the club and probably are more patient.
Moyes was/is the long term plan...ideally 6 years plus. Louis Van Gaal, who seems to be the latest flavour would be a stop gap 18 month plan....Mourinho would have been a 3 year plan with little focus on anything but the first team, yes we would have gone close in the league for a year or two but at what cost? I take the point it would have then been easier for the following manager.

It's a results orientated business but there can be a bigger picture than just winning on a particular Saturday.

I thought Moyes was a good appointment at the time and I'm still willing to give him time, I didn't think it would be quite as bad as it has been results wise though (I think performances can really only be judged when he gets players who want to play for him as there are more than a couple of the current crop who just won't) and I have begun to waiver on my initial 2 year stance whereby I'm now looking at next November/December as to when a change may be neccessary.

There is often alot of talk here about what type of fan different guys are, I'm a fan of United, I'm not just a fan of having a winning team every Saturday. It's great when we are winning but I like to think I/we follow United for reasons other than just the fact they were good...style, tradition, romance, Irish links, etc. In fact, I became a United fan partly because of my uncles and partly because in the 80s everyone my age followed Liverpool and being contrary f#cker and tending to go against the grain I took up with United...little did I know what would follow and I'd spend years being called a glory-hole.

Now more than ever in my life (I was a fan in Atkinsons time, but was young) United need my support, if it's going to have any chance the manager needs our support.

By the by I'm quite enjoying batting away all the Liverpool and Arsenal fans...behind their jibes you can see they are still so insecure and afraid, they know we will be back.

Louis Van Gaal wouldn't be a short term fix at all though in that his system is often slow and difficult to impose on a team, he's a self confessed "prozesstrainer" who takes quite some time to mould a team. If we did hire him i would assume it'd be a few years of a project before moving on to a coach with a similar style such as De Boer if he were still available.

I'd back Moyes if i saw anything there...but he's not given us anything in terms of hope since taking over realistically. Results have progressively worsened and he has lost at least some of the dressing room. We're 3 from 12 this year having played the bottom 6. Do we really want things to get worse? Each time there's been a false dawn the low afterwards has been progressively worse. 3 from 12 this year would get him sacked at any other top club already. We stand by our managers and are patient but too much of that makes us stubborn and that's just as bad.

I also don't get the logic of how sacking him would make us no better than City or Chelsea but giving him 200 million in the summer wouldn't? Exactly what would he have done to deserve the biggest warchest in club history? And even City and Chelsea have been right at times, for example would City have ever won the league with Mark Hughes? Would Chelsea have won the Champions League with Andre Villas-Boas?

I think there's most here that don't follow United simply because we've been good. It's more that the results have been alarming and the style we've been accustomed to over the years is being phased out for ugly Sam Allardyce-esque muck that's not providing results. There's no style to us or flair this year, we're indistinguishable from Newcastle really, the football is ugly and direct, the results and league position are the same and we've even got the managers on stupidly long contracts!

sea_monkey

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The thread the last few days to me.



Some awful tripe in here at minute

Could you print off the last few pages and show your uncle it so we can get the truth from it.

cheers

RasTa

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

You have your head in the sand if you think everything was just fine over the last three years.

The deficiencies in the squad were apparent for years. Or don't you remember before the European cup final the dismay at trying to predict a lineup that didn't have Giggs in midfield? (That went as well as could be expected)

You know why so many people talk about the season Nani and Berbatov bailed us out repeatedly? Its because we were playing rubbish and needed bailing out repeatedly. Remember the Blackburn debacle? Hey, do you remember playing so crap we needed to ask Paul Scholes to come out of retirement?

The results were always there under Fergie but don't kid yourself, the performances on the field steadily got worse and worse over the past 3/4 years. The midfield was always the obvious reason for that but the former coaches have to answer for it also.

So we won the league and ended up in a CL final, threw the league away and retained it and this factors into us getting worse.

Ok...

tallaghtmick

No

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The thread the last few days to me.



Some awful tripe in here at minute

Ah we'll lose to west brom be grand again.

ericzeking

spiralism wrote: »

Louis Van Gaal wouldn't be a short term fix at all though in that his system is often slow and difficult to impose on a team, he's a self confessed "prozesstrainer" who takes quite some time to mould a team. If we did hire him i would assume it'd be a few years of a project before moving on to a coach with a similar style such as De Boer if he were still available.

I'd back Moyes if i saw anything there...but he's not given us anything in terms of hope since taking over realistically. Results have progressively worsened and he has lost at least some of the dressing room. We're 3 from 12 this year having played the bottom 6. Do we really want things to get worse? Each time there's been a false dawn the low afterwards has been progressively worse. 3 from 12 this year would get him sacked at any other top club already. We stand by our managers and are patient but too much of that makes us stubborn and that's just as bad.

I also don't get the logic of how sacking him would make us no better than City or Chelsea but giving him 200 million in the summer wouldn't? Exactly what would he have done to deserve the biggest warchest in club history? And even City and Chelsea have been right at times, for example would City have ever won the league with Mark Hughes? Would Chelsea have won the Champions League with Andre Villas-Boas?

I think there's most here that don't follow United simply because we've been good. It's more that the results have been alarming and the style we've been accustomed to over the years is being phased out for ugly Sam Allardyce-esque muck that's not providing results. There's no style to us or flair this year, we're indistinguishable from Newcastle really, the football is ugly and direct, the results and league position are the same and we've even got the managers on stupidly long contracts!

Solid post...I disagree with the bit about Allardyce-esque style though, weve been crap and too direct at times but i dont think thats the grand plan for how Moyes wants to play.
The van Gaal being short term was borne purely out of the fact that he's shoving on these days, he's into his sixties at this stage.

spiralism

No

ericzeking wrote: »

Solid post...I disagree with the bit about Allardyce-esque style though, weve been crap and too direct at times but i dont think thats the grand plan for how Moyes wants to play.
The van Gaal being short term was borne purely out of the fact that he's shoving on these days, he's into his sixties at this stage.

I don't know, i get the impression it is, otherwise he wouldn't be spoon feeding it to a team clearly not well suited to it. Would find it very hard to believe he wants us out there playing fast pace attacking football, even from his press conferences where he talks about "making it difficult" for teams like Newcastle, Everton and Olympiakos would lend itself to the idea that he's a patron of negative British style muck.

This is true and i've posted at length in the past couple of days why i think we should be chasing De Boer over Van Gaal, that being one of the reasons, especially given we'd more than likely end up chasing the former after the latter left. Van Gaal's track record of fighting with key players is worrisome too, could easily see Rooney falling out of favour were he to take charge and have the club wasting a nice 300 grand a week.

Deiseboy01

Chagan wrote: »

This may be too simple but I'd consider "World Class" to mean if a World XI were to be selected they would be in the team.

Not everybody is going to have the exact same XI so it leaves room for debate while still setting some kind of standard over who is and isn't good enough.

This exactly. World class is used too loosely. Should only apply to players who if you were picking a world 11 would be in with a shout if a starting spot. Not one of our current squad is world class in my opinion using the above criteria. RVP the only candidate.