Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

Maximus Alexander

Someone said yesterday that the situation reminded them of when a really strict teacher leaves the school and is replaced by someone new. I think there might be something in that. We're all frustrated, but it seems too easy to just say "Moyes is ****, sack him". I think there's more going on here.

Seems to me like there may be some in the dressing room who spent most of their careers under Ferguson and are not interested now that he's gone. I'm not entirely convinced it would be a whole lot different under another manager.

I still don't think Moyes is going anywhere until Christmas at least, so I don't see the point in talking incessantly about getting rid of him. It's not going to happen. I reckon a lot of heads will roll in the summer and the squad will look a lot different next season. As to what the impact of that will be, I don't know.

I'm not sure if I can envisage Moyes ever winning a league title though.

tallaghtmick

No

Mitch Connor wrote: »

On which Fergie and Charlton sit - the two main football fellas on the board. The rest are business people who may defer to Fergie and Charlton.

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'd imagine it is. Fergie is on the board though and I'd imagine has alot of influence over decisions that affect the actual playing side of things.

Yeh I figured that, Gill is there too am I right? But with the majority of the board from this link http://ir.manutd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=133303&p=irol-govboard looks awfully Glazered.

aperture_nuig

The thing that's bothering me is that I wouldn't have really classed Everton under Moyes as a crossing team. Sure, they got it out wide on occasion, but more often than not they played a 5 man midfield with one up top and tried to pack the centre of the field and play through there (what I believe most united fans want to see him do here too). However, he seems to be taking the mantra of "United are a crossing team" and "United always play with wingers" to heart and thinks that we have to play that way.

...And honestly, Moyes isn't going to be sacked this season. Or during the summer. I doubt very much if he'd be sacked before the end of next season. I'm not saying if that's the right or wrong decision, but I think we'll have to get used to having him in the dugout for a while to come yet.

Bannerman7

No

Fergie bought a lot of players that were Donkeys. He got in another when he told the owners Moyes was the one.
Hopefully the owners can see this now and take action. Remember Moyes has spent 27M on a donkey too and with the share price falling the money men will act.

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

Again, far too simplistic. One charge you cannot throw at Patrice Evra is a lack of character, this is a guy who was at times the best left back in the world and a guy who has a proven record of performing on the big stage.

Character is good when its channeled in the right way. Joking and laughing is needed to help with tension but Evra has given interviews this season and talked about not blaming others and stepping up. This was around the time he didn't contend another later high ball at Cardiff and cost us two points.

He is talking the talk but not walking the walk so right now his character is doing nothing for us.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Again I don't want to defend Evra too much, he has been shocking this season, but the last goal yesterday gave another hint of something I suspected. I think Evras legs have gone.
.

He had no problem bombing forward but the ugly side of the game doesn't get as much effort. Tracking back, tackling.

Its hard to tell from that gif if he was wrecked because he didn't even try to do anything.

bucketybuck

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

How people can blame Moyes for Evras lack of effort

There are a number of factors behind Evras lack of effort, but nobody is blaming Moyes directly for Evras performances, thats just not true.

What is being said is that accepting Evra has been poor for a long time, Moyes has badly mishandled the situation. Evra has indeed been an issue for a few seasons, but over two transfer windows Moyes has not only failed to replace him, but in fact alienated him further and then left him in the team. Thats a mistake by anybodies standards.

Two transfer windows is a lifetime in football, we should not be talking about Patrice Evra at all now, he should already have been replaced.

Will I Amnt

No

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can't believe Moyes hasn't been sacked yet.

I honestly don't care what short term solution we would put in place til the summer - Giggs/Fergie most likely - it simply couldn't be any worse than it is under Moyes and I wouldn't trust Moyes with a single cent to build his own squad.

I actually can't believe what a bad manager he is, it is pathetic.

That's a fair old u-turn in the past few days.

- I think the signings he makes will be the right type of signings - so if/when he is sacked, the group of players he is left with will be good enough for the next manager to work with.

I'd agree more with your original comment. He sees the weaknesses in the squad and he's after the right type of players. I don't think he will be the man that ultimately gets to benefit from them though.

bucketybuck

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

He had no problem bombing forward but the ugly side of the game doesn't get as much effort. Tracking back, tackling.

But that was my point?

I had no problem bombing forward either. Hang about for a few minutes catching my breath then bomb forward at pace. The problem lies when you immediately have to then bomb back the way you came and you realise you can't do it.

Evra is bombing forward, but he can't get back at pace when the move breaks down. Thats in his legs as much as in his mind.

duffman13

Will I Amnt wrote: »

That's a fair old u-turn in the past few days.



I'd agree more with your original comment. He sees the weaknesses in the squad and he's after the right type of players. I don't think he will be the man that ultimately gets to benefit from them though.

100% Agree with this. We are being linked with the right players and that is fantastic but yeah he cant be the man to bring them forward at this stage.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

On which Fergie and Charlton sit - the two main football fellas on the board. The rest are business people who may defer to Fergie and Charlton.

Discussed this at length a while back.

Too much fluff rumours and assumption that Ferguson and Charlton have the final say here when it comes to the decision regarding the manager. They were one piece as part of a larger decision making machine, granted probably the most important after Ferguson inidcated his retirment.

But there is no confirmation or in anyway sane logic that dictates Ferguson, Charlton, or a combo of the two are the final say on this matter.

The Glazers own and run the club with a majority share holding, they own the majority votes in the boardroom relating to people to back their decisions. If push came to shove, and they wanted the manager gone, they wouldn't have to hold hilt to Ferguson or Charlton, they could just go and do it.

Will say alot about the Glazers how things pan out over the coming weeks. Alot of fake and ****e Twitter accounts spouting a board meeting has been called between the club and Moyes, not believing it myself. (although wouldn't be overly suprised).

If the Glazers want Moyes gone, they can do so without having any issue with Ferguson or Charlton. Was Ferguson even instilled as a voting executive? I thought he was a ceremonial non-executive.

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

But that was my point?

I had no problem bombing forward either. Hang about for a few minutes catching my breath then bomb forward at pace. The problem lies when you immediately have to then bomb back the way you came and you realise you can't do it.

Evra is bombing forward, but he can't get back at pace when the move breaks down. Thats in his legs as much as in his mind.

Evra is getting caught out of position and strolling back very early in games. For the equaliser he was in the box and close to Bent. Even if he was tired its a short distance that he could have made up. He would not be so tired that he can only stroll. It was all lack of effort.

niallo27

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

There are a number of factors behind Evras lack of effort, but nobody is blaming Moyes directly for Evras performances, thats just not true.

What is being said is that accepting Evra has been poor for a long time, Moyes has badly mishandled the situation. Evra has indeed been an issue for a few seasons, but over two transfer windows Moyes has not only failed to replace him, but in fact alienated him further and then left him in the team. Thats a mistake by anybodies standards.

Two transfer windows is a lifetime in football, we should not be talking about Patrice Evra at all now, he should already have been replaced.

Only one transfer window really though. I mean all the players would probably have started on a clean slate so just to come in and sell him would have been a huge desicion.

Too Tough To Die

Cartman78 wrote: »

Does anyone know if Mourinho was ever a realistic/viable option to replace Ferguson?

Goes without saying that Man Utd would be a very different beast with him at the helm, so would be interested to know if the move was ever on the cards and why it didn't happen.

Ferguson seems to have escaped any blame at all for the current situation but can't imagine he's going to put his hand up and admit his choosing of the Chose one was flawed

It was never viable. Mourinho is too shrewd, he would've seen the issues we had and decided Chelsea gave him the best opportunity to succeed. Mourinho is not a romanticist, he is more concerned with winning and furthering his legacy.

jaykay74

No

niallo27 wrote: »

Only one transfer window really though. I mean all the players would probably have started on a clean slate so just to come in and sell him would have been a huge desicion.

Moyes made a big push to sign Baines in the Summer window so its been 2 windows where LB has been identified but not replaced.

Your Airbag

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Someone said yesterday that the situation reminded them of when a really strict teacher leaves the school and is replaced by someone new. I think there might be something in that. We're all frustrated, but it seems too easy to just say "Moyes is ****, sack him". I think there's more going on here.

Seems to me like there may be some in the dressing room who spent most of their careers under Ferguson and are not interested now that he's gone. I'm not entirely convinced it would be a whole lot different under another manager.

This was me. In some way its only natural for attitudes to change. It happens in all walks of life. A new manages or co-worker in an office enviroment can dynamically change the chemistry of the group.

Fergie was a very strong character. Maybe some of the players secretly let out a sigh of relief when he stepped down, we'll never know.

Rio, Evra and Vidic all know they are finished very soon at UTD. The drop in form or, further drop in form, with the likes of Carrick, Clev, Val and Young is further indication of the attitude shift.

Moyes has done plenty wrong but no matter what the old adage of when you send them over the white line rings true. The players performances and multitude of individual errors cannot be ignored, they must be factored in.

Mitch Connor

No

Cartman78 wrote: »

Does anyone know if Mourinho was ever a realistic/viable option to replace Ferguson?

Goes without saying that Man Utd would be a very different beast with him at the helm, so would be interested to know if the move was ever on the cards and why it didn't happen.

Ferguson seems to have escaped any blame at all for the current situation but can't imagine he's going to put his hand up and admit his choosing of the Chose one was flawed

So as not to stir up a lot of crap - no one here knows for absolute certain because no one here knows Mourinho personally.

user2011

No

Wonders if Moyes knew this before Kick-Off?

Such a blatant betrayal of confidence in one’s own players and their ability as a unit to boss a game on the floor was made even more baffling by data available BEFORE KICK-OFF that shows Fulham, despite being bottom of the table, are in fact one of the better defences so far this season when it comes to dealing with crosses from the flanks.

Played to the oppositions strength, job well done Moyes

Mitch Connor

No

Will I Amnt wrote: »

That's a fair old u-turn in the past few days.



I'd agree more with your original comment. He sees the weaknesses in the squad and he's after the right type of players. I don't think he will be the man that ultimately gets to benefit from them though.

I would trust him to get the right type of player - but I wouldn't trust him to manage them.

tallaghtmick

No

Your Airbag wrote: »

This was me. In some way its only natural for attitudes to change. It happens in all walks of life. A new manages or co-worker in an office enviroment can dynamically change the chemistry of the group.

Fergie was a very strong character. Maybe some of the players secretly let out a sigh of relief when he stepped down, we'll never know.

Rio, Evra and Vidic all know they are finished very soon at UTD. The drop in form or, further drop in form, with the likes of Carrick, Clev, Val and Young is further indication of the attitude shift.

Moyes has done plenty wrong but no matter what the old adage of when you send them over the white line rings true. The players performances and multitude of individual errors cannot be ignored, they must be factored in.

Could the players be sick of the style play? Could be some grumblings behind the scene.

TheDoc

I've had an evening to reflect on what was a devastating result yesterday.

The minute Bent scored I turned to the old fella and said "Wouldn't be shocked if he was sacked tomorrow....players again get away scott free".

My immediate reaction to these incidents this season hasn't been the manager, and I'm not sure why it is. If we look at the two goals yesterday. Evra standing idle for the first goal, failing to bother his hole getting into position, creates a massive gap for Sidwell to stroll into. Not helped my Vidic being drawn into no mans land, but Evra just watching. Two defensive errors, one more criminal then the other.

Second goal, Vidic should have cleared that anywhere. Last few seconds of the game, you just get it clear. To try pick out Carrick is retarded. Carrick easily gets bumped off the ball with his back to an oncoming player. Valencia get's done a bit out of position. He's not a right back. De Gea makes the save which in fairness could have gone anywhere, and shock horror, Evra let Bent stroll past him to head it in.


Two goals gifted by absolute blunders of defending. No excuses. Patrice Evra has been short of a disgrace this season. The writing was on the wall for him during the summer when Moyes wanted a new LB, and instead of taking it as a challenge to provie himself, he has coasted through the season being completely inept. At this point, he should be dropped for Buttner, regardless of ability of Alexander. You cannot have a player like Evra so obviously not caring. Moyes could get alot of brownie points back by putting his foot down and dropping a big name like Evra. So far he hasn't dropped anyone of note. And that sends out the signal the performances have been acceptable.

We can talk all day about the crosses and the likes. Fulham should have been obliterated yesterday. I fully appreciate the comments from Mulensteen, but its ok for him to be so candid when they come away with a draw. A loss like that and his job is under threat. They played a 4-6-0 where at times they have four centre backs with wingers turning into left and right backs. A 6-4-0. They got battered. And when you have essentially two banks of four being tight in the middle, essentially the play get's forced out wide. Granted variation would have been nice, it would have been mightly difficult playing intricute play through the middle of essentially two banks of four smotheering you out. The quality, composure and decision making in the final third was horrendous. Crosses was mostly poor, the movement in the box was static at best, and at times it was only 2-3 people in the box, not even overloading it. Buttner is a lovely crosser of the ball, he would have been more effective then Evra yesterday.


There was alot of immediate reaction yesterday of somewhat hostile posts about "Where are the people defending Moyes?!?!" and the likes. Maybe I'm entirely deluded, but I'm absolutely disgusted with our squad. There is also a complete lack of character or leadership on that pitch. No one standing to be counted, no one stepping up into overdrive. The players are hiding and cowering. It's shameful to see. As much as we keepsaying how a team can go from champions to 7th, I'm sure Moyes is lieing awake at night wondering how this crowd of rubbish secured a premier league title.

I'm still dellusionally backing Moyes, simply because I feel there are segments of the squad being terrible proffesionals, underperforming and downright boiling my blood. And I hate to see that player power rubbish. There are players there clearly feeling the manager will be gone before them.

Royal Legend

As a Liverpool fan, I am enjoying the boot on the other foot for a change.

But seriously, in no way shape or form does Moyes compare to Hodgson, Moyes is a good manager in a bad moment, whereas Hodgson is a complete clown.

Secondly, Man utd peppered Fulham yesterday, whether that was from wide or not does not really matter, they went from 1 nil down to 2-1 up, it shows character and fighting spirit. The problem is that there is no way that when they got in the position with 10 minutes to go that they should have ever conceded, that's not the managers fault, the fault lays squarely on the 11 on the pitch and its not the first time this season they have conceded late goals.

Lastly, you can imagine what Liverpool supporters and a lot of other clubs supporters view on Evra's personality is, imo he is all about Evra. That he is sulking is nothing new, but how is it only now you can see what a cnut he actually is?

v3ttel

wonderfullife wrote: »

The game is moving away from possession based football. It's moving towards effective use of limited possession. The fact Moyes is swimming against the tide is no surprise.

You might want to tell that to Barcelona, who have won 6 out of the last 9 La Liga titles, and 3 Champions Leagues, based on possession football.

These wild "visionary" statements such as "the game is moving away from" this or that, invariably turn out to be complete and utter sh*te of the highest order.

DeanAustin

Royal Legend wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, I am enjoying the boot on the other foot for a change.

But seriously, in no way shape or form does Moyes compare to Hodgson, Moyes is a good manager in a bad moment, whereas Hodgson is a complete clown.

Secondly, Man utd peppered Fulham yesterday, whether that was from wide or not does not really matter, they went from 1 nil down to 2-1 up, it shows character and fighting spirit. The problem is that there is no way that when they got in the position with 10 minutes to go that they should have ever conceded, that's not the managers fault, the fault lays squarely on the 11 on the pitch and its not the first time this season they have conceded late goals.

Lastly, you can imagine what Liverpool supporters and a lot of other clubs supporters view on Evra's personality is, imo he is all about Evra. That he is sulking is nothing new, but how is it only now you can see what a cnut he actually is?

What a stupid thing to post. Do you know anything about the man's career outside of his spell at Liverpool?

tallaghtmick

No

Royal Legend wrote: »

As a Liverpool fan, I am enjoying the boot on the other foot for a change.

But seriously, in no way shape or form does Moyes compare to Hodgson, Moyes is a good manager in a bad moment, whereas Hodgson is a complete clown.

Secondly, Man utd peppered Fulham yesterday, whether that was from wide or not does not really matter, they went from 1 nil down to 2-1 up, it shows character and fighting spirit. The problem is that there is no way that when they got in the position with 10 minutes to go that they should have ever conceded, that's not the managers fault, the fault lays squarely on the 11 on the pitch and its not the first time this season they have conceded late goals.

Lastly, you can imagine what Liverpool supporters and a lot of other clubs supporters view on Evra's personality is, imo he is all about Evra. That he is sulking is nothing new, but how is it only now you can see what a cnut he actually is?

No he's not, he like Moyes is/was just out of his depth, Hodgsons CV is better than Moyes(not by much mind you), your view of Hodgson is like most of our views on Moyes.

TheDoc

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Could the players be sick of the style play? Could be some grumblings behind the scene.

We could speculate all day on what goes on behind the scenes. You could well be onto something alright. But at the same time, I'm sure Moyes could on the flipside outline to them he has seen NOTHING in terms of ability that indicates they could play the sort of football he wants to play.

I don't think this crossing stuff is what he wants to do. I don't think that's the vision he wants to bring to the team. And he has mentioned a few times how he has a plan and a style he wants to implement and he is working towards that.

Considering the team has been playing pretty shockingly all season, I imagine he is trying this to see if anything comes from it.

Like at the end of it all we are sitting here criticising which is fine and we can do and the likes. And I appreciate no one here is a coach or manager at any relevant level that could make genuine comment on the situation, at the end of it we are just armchair managers.

But I struggle to breakdown and even come up with some form of alternative to try. I know we can say 4-2-3-1, or any host of formations and the likes. But when you factor in how dross the team have been, what exactly is there to do to turn this around.

I don't personally think it's tactical or style. With what happened yesterday we should have hammered Fulham all day long. That should have been about 4-0 before half time. When a team come sot Ot and sits there and says " come at us" then you go slice them up and destroy them.

I think the problem is mental, personality and attitude. And you can't fix that with tactics, formations or signings. It's really hitting me at the moment. He hasn't dropped a big name all season. He hasn't made that statement. His persistence with certain players sends a message that the performances and results are acceptable.

Arsenal up next? Drop Evra for Buttner. Regardless of the perceived ability, Evra is being a disgrace imo at the moment. Let Buttner in, he's eager to impress. **** it it can't be worse then Evra.

I think there is also a big call with Vidic to make. With all that's gone on in the past week, it's a tough big call to make for Moyes. But this is what being a top club manager is about. your centre half and captain has just announced his departure from the club, and has had a ****ing stink display at home against a feeble opposition.

While there might be this and that behind the scenes, the problem is it's not being shown in public, as something for the fans to appreciate, acknowledge and support.

tallaghtmick

No

v3ttel wrote: »

You might want to tell that to Barcelona, who have won 6 out of the last 9 La Liga titles, and 3 Champions Leagues, based on possession football.

These wild "visionary" statements such as "the game is moving away from" this or that, invariably turn out to be complete and utter sh*te of the highest order.

I agree with the possession part but Barca would not cross 81 times in a season let alone one match! (slight exaggeration)

tallaghtmick

No

TheDoc wrote: »

We could speculate all day on what goes on behind the scenes. You could well be onto something alright. But at the same time, I'm sure Moyes could on the flipside outline to them he has seen NOTHING in terms of ability that indicates they could play the sort of football he wants to play.

I don't think this crossing stuff is what he wants to do. I don't think that's the vision he wants to bring to the team. And he has mentioned a few times how he has a plan and a style he wants to implement and he is working towards that.

Considering the team has been playing pretty shockingly all season, I imagine he is trying this to see if anything comes from it.

Like at the end of it all we are sitting here criticising which is fine and we can do and the likes. And I appreciate no one here is a coach or manager at any relevant level that could make genuine comment on the situation, at the end of it we are just armchair managers.

But I struggle to breakdown and even come up with some form of alternative to try. I know we can say 4-2-3-1, or any host of formations and the likes. But when you factor in how dross the team have been, what exactly is there to do to turn this around.

I don't personally think it's tactical or style. With what happened yesterday we should have hammered Fulham all day long. That should have been about 4-0 before half time. When a team come sot Ot and sits there and says " come at us" then you go slice them up and destroy them.

I think the problem is mental, personality and attitude. And you can't fix that with tactics, formations or signings. It's really hitting me at the moment. He hasn't dropped a big name all season. He hasn't made that statement. His persistence with certain players sends a message that the performances and results are acceptable.

Arsenal up next? Drop Evra for Buttner. Regardless of the perceived ability, Evra is being a disgrace imo at the moment. Let Buttner in, he's eager to impress. **** it it can't be worse then Evra.

I think there is also a big call with Vidic to make. With all that's gone on in the past week, it's a tough big call to make for Moyes. But this is what being a top club manager is about. your centre half and captain has just announced his departure from the club, and has had a ****ing stink display at home against a feeble opposition.

While there might be this and that behind the scenes, the problem is it's not being shown in public, as something for the fans to appreciate, acknowledge and support.

I would like to see 4-2-3-1 from now on, both our goals yesterday came from high pressure central play, with Mata, Rooney, Adnan/Kagawa as the 3 behing RVP we would rip most defences.

TheDoc

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I would like to see 4-2-3-1 from now on, both our goals yesterday came from high pressure central play, with Mata, Rooney, Adnan/Kagawa as the 3 behing RVP we would rip most defences.

I'd agree, would love to see that. TBH I thought yesterday would have been the ideal to do it.

I'd go with Rooney central, Mata of the right and Kagawa of the left with RVP up front.

Don't think it will happen though. But would be nice to atleast see how it would go.

Kagawa frozen out again yesterday, when maybe the intricate play him and Mata could have made could have unlocked that Fulham defence early on. Pity, can only see him exiting Old Trafford this summer ...

I'm genuinely hoping though that the current utilisation of Mata is just Moyes not comfortable with his players, and when he makes changes in personal come summer or even before then, Mata can be deployed better. If he persists using him out wide...ugh...I'll have to ask serious questions.

But yeah.

RVP
Kawaga Roooney Mata

Fletcher/Fellaini Carrick

Buttner Jones/Smalling Evans Rafael

DDG

Would love to see it happen

Julez

No

TheDoc wrote: »

Kagawa frozen out again yesterday, when maybe the intricate play him and Mata could have made could have unlocked that Fulham defence early on. Pity, can only see him exiting Old Trafford this summer ...

Have to say I agree with this, Moyes has clealy made up his mind with him, as long as Moyes is still there Kagawa will never become anything at Man Utd.

TheDoc

Julez wrote: »

Have to say I agree with this, Moyes has clealy made up his mind with him, as long as Moyes is still there Kagawa will never become anything at Man Utd.

Needs to be acceptance however that the player himself hasn't covered himself in glory, failing to stamp his authority on the squad since arriving, and ensuring his a critical part of the team.

While there are the excuses he hasn't been utilised properly, he really shone to promise when he moved out to the left drifting for Dortmund, and does the same role for his country.

Feel he is struggling with the physical side of the premier league. Would happily give him one more season, but needs to sort his **** out, accept that he got ****ed over a bit when we signed RVP, and adapt himself.

bucketybuck

No

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't think this crossing stuff is what he wants to do.

Your Airbag talks about the players being responsible when they cross the white line, but as far as I am concerned there is no way that a team of Mata, Young, Rooney, RVP and Carrick cross the ball 83 times in a match unless they are explicitly being told to do so. You put those players on a field and tell them to play their own game and you will not see 83 crosses of the ball, no chance in hell.

Those tactics and that style of play is coming from the management, and that game yesterday was a horrible indictment of the management team in my opinion. Of Moyes, of Steve Round and of Phil Neville.

Just look at the changes made. The tactic of repeated crosses into the box was clearly not working so what do they do? Bring on Januzaj and Valencia, see if a different person crossing the ball will help. :rolleyes:

They could have changed the shape entirely by swapping Young for Kagawa and letting them actually use the ball on the ground, but no, they just kept crossing the ball.

Al Capwned

I've not read much of the hundreds of posts since the end of yesterdays game, but I can imagine I would be very much in the minority by saying this.

I don't want to see Moyes leave or be sacked. Yet.
I think he should, and he will, be given until next season at least - This season is now a write off, if we go through the summer window and there isn't significant improvement by say Christmas, then I'll reconsider.

I fully expect this opinion to be picked apart by a lot of guys on here, and I respect your right to disagree with this, and indeed to call for Moyes to be sacked, but I think this is what will happen, and I also think it's what should happen.

FutureGuy

I've had time to reflect on yesterday's game and to take the emotion and anger out of my thinking.

Do I still want Moyes out? Yes I do. I have absolutely no confidence in his ability to manage the team, manage the players and drive the club forward. I do not want him spending another penny when he sees Mata as a right winger against the worst team in the league.

We had the chance to obliterate Fulham and to send the fans home happy. Their recent results are indicative of a team playing some dreadful football. I was being patient with Moyes. After all, he was missing a creative midfielder and both his star strikers. But yesterday, we had almost all the pieces in place. We had the creative force, we had the strikers and we had Carrick and Fletcher to protect the defenders (which is a sad indication in itself).

Fulham 0 - 3 Southampton
Swansea 2 - 0 Fulham
Arsenal 2 - 0 Fulham
Fulham 1 - 4 Sunderland
Fulham 2 - 1 West Ham
Hull City 6 -0 Fulham

Yep, that's 19 goals conceded and 3 scored. We all had a joke last week that surely we will win this comfortably. Even the most pessimistic fans were talking about a narrow win for United.

What unfolded over the 90+5 yesterday sealed Moyes fate. We are playing like a team that is being told to curb any instinct to use technical talent we have and instead revert to crossing it over and over and over again.

You could see this in the preformances from the likes of Januzaj and Young. On numerous occasions, when you would have expected both of them to cut inside (especially Young), they just went wide and attempted a cross.

When it was clear that it was not working, he persisted. When we scored 2 hugely undeserved goals, he celebrated like he had won the league. I don't think there was any United fan watching that game thinking "yes, the crossing worked!". Moyes is a manager with a mindset of mediocracy. We have some of the most technicaly gifted footballers in the League and we are playing hoofball. Mata playing on the right says it all.

Moyes was blessed that the signing section was in full flow yesterday because I feel we would have had a very different crowd otherwise.

After the game, Moyes has placed the draw firmly on the shoulders of the players. We didn't take our chances. The defenders made mistakes. The players were mentally soft. His tactics were bred from the fact that crossing is in United's DNA. Bullsh!t. Maybe when you have Beckham and Giggs putting in pinpoint crosses. Not now when our wingers couldn't hit a barn door with a cross.

We have a team that, on paper, should decimate teams like Fulham. Instead, we are trying to beat them by employing a tactic that we cannot profit from in any way. Poor crosses from very agerage wingers to players who prefer ball to feet or along the ground.

Utterly disappointing and not good enough.

FutureGuy

tallaghtmick wrote: »

I would like to see 4-2-3-1 from now on, both our goals yesterday came from high pressure central play, with Mata, Rooney, Adnan/Kagawa as the 3 behing RVP we would rip most defences.

Yes, and yesterday was the best time to try it. He won't do it in any of the next 5 games for certain. It's utterly frustrating.

The weak point of 4-2-3-1 is Evra. Even then, we'd still outscore most teams. IS Buttner good enough to replace him? You know what, he deserves the chance. He can cross, he will kill himself to get back and he'll give his all for the team. I was never the most skilled player at junior level but I played every single game ahead of technically better players because I left it all out there every game.

Lucas Hood

No

We're pretty much playing 4231 now . Rooney is playing deeper than Van Persie, Mata is starting from the right and cutting in onto his left foot & Young on the left.

The formation isn't the problem it's tactics and personnel that are the problem imo.

newballsplease

Rooney still not signed a new contract surely means hes off in the summer.

Schwiiing

newballsplease wrote: »

Rooney still not signed a new contract surely means hes off in the summer.

Is it really worth giving him 300k a week just to placate him?
he's not irreplacable.

paulbok

No

4th place is long gone, we may get past Olympiacos but no further.
Of the 13 remaining league games, Arse, Pool, City, Newc & Ever, based on current form, we'll get nothing out of and you'd have to have doubts about all the rest give the Stoke and Fulham results.
It's shocking how bad United are at the moment, and are on course for their worst points finish since 1991 (48) or 1992 (59). That's some fall from being the champions. A lot of supporters were 'ok' with a top 4 finish, or even a season with no CL football, but no-one expected this mess.
If there was some sign of a plan from Moyes, then yeah, we could say there is a method to the madness, but does anyone see it? Fair enough , he doesn't have the players he wants, but he should be able to get what he has to do better than this.
Why all the crosses and long balls?
Why is Evra still on the pitch every game?
Why isn't he using the strengths of the front players?
Why can't he change this up properly when it's needed with correct subs?

I had been behind Moyes and said he needed time, but it's really starting to get out of hand now. He won't be sacked anytime soon, but I'd say he's got till the summer to convince the board he is the person for the job. If the current form continues, he'll be a gonner in May.

Anyone know how much he is on?

TheDoc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Your Airbag talks about the players being responsible when they cross the white line, but as far as I am concerned there is no way that a team of Mata, Young, Rooney, RVP and Carrick cross the ball 83 times in a match unless they are explicitly being told to do so. You put those players on a field and tell them to play their own game and you will not see 83 crosses of the ball, no chance in hell.

Those tactics and that style of play is coming from the management, and that game yesterday was a horrible indictment of the management team in my opinion. Of Moyes, of Steve Round and of Phil Neville.

Just look at the changes made. The tactic of repeated crosses into the box was clearly not working so what do they do? Bring on Januzaj and Valencia, see if a different person crossing the ball will help. :rolleyes:

They could have changed the shape entirely by swapping Young for Kagawa and letting them actually use the ball on the ground, but no, they just kept crossing the ball.

Just to clear up, I know obviously that the style of yesterday was dictated by Moyes, what I mean is longterm, I don't think that is his plan.

He is probably utilising what he feels at present is the only way to win/grind a result. Obviously the players are carrying out his instructions.

What I mean is longterm, and ideally, I don't think this crossing stuff is what he wants to do, but maybe at present feels its the only thing he can do.

Corvo

We can discuss the intricacies of it all until the cows come home, but lets be honest here - the man needs to be turfed out at the end of the season. If you think otherwise, please ask yourself the following:]

What are the negatives he has brought to the team / club? Now list them.

What are the positives he has brought to the team / club? Now list them also.

Can he change the negatives?

FutureGuy

I think we are all in agreement over Evra. I'd love for Buttner to start vs Arsenal.

KH25

No

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think we are all in agreement over Evra. I'd love for Buttner to start vs Arsenal.

He won't.

On the plus side, Mata has 3 assists so far. He really will be a quality player.

TheDoc

FutureGuy wrote: »

I think we are all in agreement over Evra. I'd love for Buttner to start vs Arsenal.

And it sends out a clear and very public message that the performances and results are not acceptable.

Yesterday was too obvious, Evra hasn't reacted positively to the news a new LB is being sought after. Give Buttner the chance.

ericzeking

TheDoc wrote: »

I've had an evening to reflect on what was a devastating result yesterday.

The minute Bent scored I turned to the old fella and said "Wouldn't be shocked if he was sacked tomorrow....players again get away scott free".

My immediate reaction to these incidents this season hasn't been the manager, and I'm not sure why it is. If we look at the two goals yesterday. Evra standing idle for the first goal, failing to bother his hole getting into position, creates a massive gap for Sidwell to stroll into. Not helped my Vidic being drawn into no mans land, but Evra just watching. Two defensive errors, one more criminal then the other.

Second goal, Vidic should have cleared that anywhere. Last few seconds of the game, you just get it clear. To try pick out Carrick is retarded. Carrick easily gets bumped off the ball with his back to an oncoming player. Valencia get's done a bit out of position. He's not a right back. De Gea makes the save which in fairness could have gone anywhere, and shock horror, Evra let Bent stroll past him to head it in.


Two goals gifted by absolute blunders of defending. No excuses. Patrice Evra has been short of a disgrace this season. The writing was on the wall for him during the summer when Moyes wanted a new LB, and instead of taking it as a challenge to provie himself, he has coasted through the season being completely inept. At this point, he should be dropped for Buttner, regardless of ability of Alexander. You cannot have a player like Evra so obviously not caring. Moyes could get alot of brownie points back by putting his foot down and dropping a big name like Evra. So far he hasn't dropped anyone of note. And that sends out the signal the performances have been acceptable.

We can talk all day about the crosses and the likes. Fulham should have been obliterated yesterday. I fully appreciate the comments from Mulensteen, but its ok for him to be so candid when they come away with a draw. A loss like that and his job is under threat. They played a 4-6-0 where at times they have four centre backs with wingers turning into left and right backs. A 6-4-0. They got battered. And when you have essentially two banks of four being tight in the middle, essentially the play get's forced out wide. Granted variation would have been nice, it would have been mightly difficult playing intricute play through the middle of essentially two banks of four smotheering you out. The quality, composure and decision making in the final third was horrendous. Crosses was mostly poor, the movement in the box was static at best, and at times it was only 2-3 people in the box, not even overloading it. Buttner is a lovely crosser of the ball, he would have been more effective then Evra yesterday.


There was alot of immediate reaction yesterday of somewhat hostile posts about "Where are the people defending Moyes?!?!" and the likes. Maybe I'm entirely deluded, but I'm absolutely disgusted with our squad. There is also a complete lack of character or leadership on that pitch. No one standing to be counted, no one stepping up into overdrive. The players are hiding and cowering. It's shameful to see. As much as we keepsaying how a team can go from champions to 7th, I'm sure Moyes is lieing awake at night wondering how this crowd of rubbish secured a premier league title.

I'm still dellusionally backing Moyes, simply because I feel there are segments of the squad being terrible proffesionals, underperforming and downright boiling my blood. And I hate to see that player power rubbish. There are players there clearly feeling the manager will be gone before them.

You saved me writing a long post Doc....I was going to say exactly that about being forced wide by the crowded box and the quality of delivery and attacking in the box was the issue. Chicha might have made a difference if brought on earlier.

Your posting has been on fire lately. Major Kudos.

I'm with you.... I still support Moyes too.

Lord TSC

No

KH25 wrote: »

He won't.

On the plus side, Mata has 3 assists so far. He really will be a quality player.

Really happy with how he and RVP are linking up. If we got over the crossing, we would have one hell of a combo there...

tallaghtmick

No

KH25 wrote: »

He won't.

On the plus side, Mata has 3 assists so far. He really will be a quality player.

Now to get some goals out of him too

bullvine

No

He should have left after the Newcastle defeat, its too late now. Charlton and Fergie still thinking like its the 20th Century, the Champions League has changed everything. There is absolute zero chance of an improvement. Appointing Moyes will go down as the worst decision in the history of the club. He is gonna set us back years.

All he had to do was keep the team stable, he couldn't even do that. There has not been one decent performance this season, not a single one in the prem league.

Disgraceful.

FutureGuy

KH25 wrote: »

He won't.

On the plus side, Mata has 3 assists so far. He really will be a quality player.

All for Van Persie goals too.

TheDoc wrote: »

And it sends out a clear and very public message that the performances and results are not acceptable.

Yesterday was too obvious, Evra hasn't reacted positively to the news a new LB is being sought after. Give Buttner the chance.

I really hope he has the balls to send out this very clear message about dialling in performances. But unfortunately, I can't see it happening

Kerrydude1981

No

KH25 wrote: »

He won't.

On the plus side, Mata has 3 assists so far. He really will be a quality player.

That ball he volleyed out to Young yesterday was top class,it was probably Utd's best move in the whole game.

KH25

No

ericzeking wrote: »

You saved me writing a long post Doc....I was going to say exactly that about being forced wide by the crowded box and the quality of delivery and attacking in the box was the issue. Chicha might have made a difference if brought on earlier.

Your posting has been on fire lately. Major Kudos.

I'm with you.... I still support Moyes too.

I still support Moyes like the two of you. I said it last night that I want to see him succeed. I have at times said he's not good enough and I may well be right there, but as long as he is our manager I support him.

The team needs a clear out drastically. New blood that is hungry for success.