Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - 2013/14 Mod Warning: Post #7871

GSPfan

No

Saucy McKetchup wrote: »

Jaysus ya don't sell one of your best players unless you have to or need too, sure lets sell Januzaj and De Gea too for the craic

Is the thread getting punk'd?

This is the most mental out of the blue transfer madness I've ever heard. There is no way in hell I'd sell Van Persie for anyone else at the moment. The man is a goal machine. Why are we worried about a sell on fee. Jesus.

Surely these lads are taking the mick.

Rayne Wooney

BloodBath wrote: »

Why can't we continue playing rooney as a number 10? Because of Mata? It would be easy to fit both of them into a 4-2-3-1 formation.

I don't buy this bollocks that Rooney is not a good number 10. Stats prove otherwise. He also puts in a far bigger workload than the likes of Mata does in helping the midfield and tracking back to defend.

Granted Mata would be more creative and get more assists in that position but a 4-2-3-1 could easily accommodate both of them.

Sell RVP and when Rooney get's injured what do we do? I'd like to see Wayne back as a CF. He would have smashed Sir Bobbys records already if he had played their his whole career.

He's a poor number 10, however he is still Rooney and makes up for it a lot of the time. But when he's off form we're in bad need of a proper number 10 in that position.

It's not top of the pile of problems at United, firstly we'll have to deal with the one dimensional crossing tactics and a few other things, but playing Rooney in that position to fit both him and RVP in will need to be addressed at some point.

BloodBath

No

I was talking about selling him, not selling him back to Arsenal or a direct rival.

GSPfan

No

BloodBath wrote: »

I was talking about selling him, not selling him back to Arsenal or a direct rival.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh i see.

Still mental.

BloodBath

No

What I really don't understand is the insistence of playing Rooney in that Role when RVP is injured. Sure Welbeck and Chico need some game time too but we have 3 reasonably good number 10 options in Mata, Kags and Jan now as well.

Maximus Alexander

Its All Wright wrote: »

20-24m for a 32 year old striker?

Why do football players' ages always rise mysteriously when transfers are being discussed? RVP is 30.

A whole 2 years older than Rooney.

BloodBath

No

Easily get that money for him. AC Milan are fond of the older player

I still wouldn't sell him though unless he's unhappy and wants to go. Must be a bit of a bummer for him coming to United to win something and only getting 1 good season. Now we're 7th with no chance of winning anything under Moyes.

GSPfan

No

BloodBath wrote: »

Easily get that money for him. AC Milan are fond of the older player

Ac Milan are broke. You're on fire tonight.

Schwiiing

If RVP was sold and another striker replaced him and all his goals next season their wouldn't be another word about him. No one talked about Cole and Yorke when RvN scored all around him. Nobody talked about RvN when Ronaldo scored all around him. RvP is not the only other striker in existence.

GSPfan

No

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why do football players' ages always rise mysteriously when transfers are being discussed? RVP is 30.

A whole 2 years older than Rooney.

Ha ha. Yeah sure Evra and Baines ages fluctuated wildly last Summer depending on which one you rathered.

adox

No

There will be enough players leaving this summer as it is without discussing getting rid of one of our star players ffs.


Two people gone in the summer and I'll be over the moon, jumping for joy, feeling optimistic again.

Moyes and Evra.

BloodBath

No

GSPfan wrote: »

Ac Milan are broke. You're on fire tonight.

I'm not the one who brought it up in the first place. Only responding to comments that it would be madness when it's not madness at all if he can be replaced with someone younger and of the same standard.

The rebuild needed is already going to be huge. I've already listed the players who are going or should be going and RVP wasn't on it

Hidalgo

Schwiiing wrote: »

If RVP was sold and another striker replaced him and all his goals next season their wouldn't be another word about him. No one talked about Cole and Yorke when RvN scored all around him. Nobody talked about RvN when Ronaldo scored all around him. RvP is not the only other striker in existence.

There's enough positions that Utd have to replace, LB CB and midfield.
They'll earn it to do all the business they have to do in a a World Cup summer, let alone by adding to it by replacing a striker.

He's the best goalscorer Utd have imo, they're not short of cash so selling him is unneccessary.

And besides, do Utd fans really trust Moyes in replacing the quality of RVP

BloodBath

No

He's the best goalscorer Utd have imo, they're not short of cash so selling him is unneccessary.

Debateable. Put Rooney up there for the season and he would have a similar tally.

Why can't we accommodate both of them like Liverpool do with the SAS?

bucketybuck

No

BloodBath wrote: »

I don't buy this bollocks that Rooney is not a good number 10. Stats prove otherwise. He also puts in a far bigger workload than the likes of Mata does in helping the midfield and tracking back to defend.

If people are being honest, it's only the workload that makes people praise Rooney as a number 10, not the stats. If Rooney didn't have the workload this wouldn't even be a conversation.

The question is, do you want your no.10 to be a workhorse or a creative genius. I know which I prefer.

Rooney should be right up front in his best position.

BloodBath

No

Fair enough. I agree with that but what happens to RVP then? Surely there is a better way to implement both of them?

Saucy McKetchup

No

BloodBath wrote: »

Fair enough. I agree with that but what happens to RVP then? Surely there is a better way to implement both of them?

Of course there is, I'm sure david moyes has it all worked out:pac:


Ah no the only way to ensure Rooney doesn't have to play so deep to get the ball and control the game is to buy a decent midfielder who can do it

yabadabado

realistically who could United buy to replace RVP that is of the same standard ?

Rubber_Soul

No

Anybody watch Zaha tonight? Heard he had another poor one, fair?

BloodBath

No

yabadabado wrote: »

realistically who could United buy to replace RVP that is of the same standard ?

With Evra and Rio going a swap + money deal for Suarez

Blatter

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

If people are being honest, it's only the workload that makes people praise Rooney as a number 10, not the stats. If Rooney didn't have the workload this wouldn't even be a conversation.

The question is, do you want your no.10 to be a workhorse or a creative genius. I know which I prefer.

Rooney should be right up front in his best position.

Rooney has 11 assists in the league this season, the 2nd highest ahead of the likes of Hazard, Ozil and Silva despite missing a fair few games through injury.

Okay, he doesn't produce many silky through balls or isn't as easy on the eye as those sometimes but to describe him as a 'work horse' at #10 is utterly ridiculous.

bucketybuck

No

BloodBath wrote: »

Fair enough. I agree with that but what happens to RVP then? Surely there is a better way to implement both of them?

Well, I hold to my position that we never needed to buy him in the first place, but now that hes here he is hardly a bad option to have. Certainly no point in selling him for a few million.

I do disagree with one point though, this idea that he can go on for another four years. Maybe he can, but so what? Thats the type of thinking that left us relying on Scholes and Giggs for far too long. Far better to replace RVP with quality at 31/32 than to still need him at 33/34.

bucketybuck

No

Blatter wrote: »

Rooney has 11 assists in the league this season, the 2nd highest ahead of the likes of Hazard, Ozil and Silva despite missing a fair few games through injury.

Okay, he doesn't produce many silky through balls or isn't as easy on the eye as those sometimes but to describe him as a 'work horse' at #10 is utterly ridiculous.

I think that if we had Rooney up front with Mata behind that we would score more goals than with the Rooney/RVP combo.

Pighead

Blatter wrote: »

Rooney has 11 assists in the league this season, the 2nd highest ahead of the likes of Hazard, Ozil and Silva despite missing a fair few games through injury.

Wow, that's impressive. Didn't realise he had so many. That's over 25% of all Utd's assists this season (11/41). Who has most assists out of interest?

BloodBath

No

You could also say we would score more with RVP up front and Mata behind. What happens when either 1 gets injured? Having 2 world class CF's is a luxury most clubs don't have. Keeping them both happy and playing is the challenge.

We're losing a few players for free now that we would have got big money for a couple of years ago though. If we could get 25-30m for RVP now it wouldn't be a bad move providing suitable replacements were brought in beforehand.

Rayne Wooney

Rooney has been most dangerous when he pushes forward, at times abandoning his number 10 duties, and it works when he's having a good game but when he isn't it's just damaging and we're better off playing with a proper number 10 in there.

We've bigger things to be worrying about tactically and personnel wise but next season and beyond we shouldn't be playing a striker in that position if we can help it

sky88

No

I didnt watch everton that much over the years but when i did they showed energy and intensity which weve seen none from united this season. I know the played long ball to felani at times but just dont remember them playing as bad as united are

GSPfan

No

Lads please stop this crazy talk. Look at Haley McQueen on SSN. She'll take your mind off this craziness.

Its All Wright

GSPfan wrote: »

Lads please stop this crazy talk. Look at Haley McQueen on SSN. She'll take your mind off this craziness.

Turned it on to find Moyes talking about how well we played against Fulham on Sunday

Blatter

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

I think that if we had Rooney up front with Mata behind that we would score more goals than with the Rooney/RVP combo.

Well that is certainly different than describing him as work horse at #10. What leads you to think that, out of interest? United scored buckets of goals in the last 2 and a half seasons (prior to this one) with Rooney primarily playing at #10. The reason I I'm using that time frame is because Rooney began playing regularly at #10 half way through the 10/11 season. 89 goals scored in 11/12, 86 goals in 12/13.

Rooney has proven that as a #10, he can score/assist freely himself and the team as a whole can tot up very good goal numbers.

Blatter

No

Pighead wrote: »

Wow, that's impressive. Didn't realise he had so many. That's over 25% of all Utd's assists this season (11/41). Who has most assists out of interest?

Suarez with 16, who also has 7 more goals than the 2nd top scorer, all after missing the start of the season through suspension. Pretty extraordinary numbers, by far the best I've ever seen in the PL.

I'm using FPL for the stats btw.

http://fantasy.premierleague.com/stats/elements/?element_filter=0&stat_filter=assists

Hidalgo

bucketybuck wrote: »

If people are being honest, it's only the workload that makes people praise Rooney as a number 10, not the stats. If Rooney didn't have the workload this wouldn't even be a conversation.

The question is, do you want your no.10 to be a workhorse or a creative genius. I know which I prefer.

Rooney should be right up front in his best position.

Whilst creativity is paramount in your No.10, a player willing to work hard is also a great help for his teammates.

I'm not advocating chasing everything like a headless chicken, but if your No.10 is willing to harass and pressure the opposition back 4 when they're trying to set a platform to begin attacks this in turns helps your defence

bucketybuck

No

Blatter wrote: »

Well that is certainly different than describing him as work horse at #10. What leads you to think that, out of interest? United scored buckets of goals in the last 2 and a half seasons (prior to this one) with Rooney primarily playing at #10. The reason I I'm using that time frame is because Rooney began playing regularly at #10 half way through the 10/11 season. 89 goals scored in 11/12, 86 goals in 12/13.

Rooney has proven that as a #10, he can score/assist freely himself and the team as a whole can tot up very good goal numbers.

I don't mean it derogatory, but Rooney is indeed a workhorse and that fact improves his stock as far as most fans are concerned. He is also a very good footballer and of course can be very effective in that no.10 role.

I just get the sense that while Rooney's personal tallies look good United's play in general doesn't and a part of the reason for that must fall on his shoulders. You say Rooney began playing regularly at #10 half way through the 10/11 season, but I don't think I am the only person to think our performances have been pretty turgid since around that time?

Although goals and assists are important, the number 10 is also vital for linking up play and creating situations that allow other players to prosper. Well, our other players are not prospering, in fact our attacking unit as a whole has flatlined. The biggest reason for this is the midfield, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look a little more critically at our creative fulcrum, ignore the hard work for just a minute and really look at how he affects the shape of the team as a whole.

Our creative fulcrum, and on Sunday he made ONE pass to Robin Van Persie all game (discounting the kick-off). Even with Moyes tactics, thats just not acceptable.


ETA: The analogy I keep going back to is Ruud Van Nistlerooy. At the time he was sold his stats were still fantastic, but it was the right decision for the team to sell him. Stats aren't the full story.

ShoulderChip

No

bucketybuck wrote: »

The question is, do you want your no.10 to be a workhorse or a creative genius. I know which I prefer

But you have a creative genius now who doesn't work hard,
ye just have chosen to play him wide and ask him to cross the ball.

Schwiiing

ShoulderChip wrote: »

But you have a creative genius now who doesn't work hard,
ye just have chosen to play him wide and ask him to cross the ball.

2 of them in fact.

Rayne Wooney

Rooney wasn't playing in number 10 role as it currently is before Van Persie arrived.

He was more of a second striker before that, not a number 10.

Drogba has more or less the same goals and assists as Rooney in that period, stats don't show the full picture.

From watching the games, Rooney just lacks the level of creativity needed to play in that position. On form he covers for himself as he gets forward and scores goals but as we've seen a few times this season (Southampton as far as I can remember, when Rooney played behind Hernandez and Hernandez had 0 shots on goal) off form it becomes a problem.

adox

No

When Rooney is at the top of his game, no 10 is his natural position IMO.

Rayne Wooney

Nah, when Rooney is on top of his game CF is his position and he'll score 25-30 goals in the PL matching any top striker.

Pro. F

No

I think Rooney's lack of creativity is over stated. He's not as creative as Mata or the like, but he's still very creative. The team definitely haven't been creating like they should for a few years, but that is because of the midfield and now the new manager imo.

If we had a proper manager and a proper midfield I think the theories that Rooney isn't a good number 10 and that 442/4411 is ineffective would be quickly abandoned.

Rayne Wooney

All sniggering aside we have had the worst luck this season.

But I suppose great teams will make their own luck, goals at the end of games wouldn't matter if we had made use of the other 80 minutes in the game

Hidalgo

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

All sniggering aside we have had the worst luck this season.

But I suppose great teams will make their own luck, goals at the end of games wouldn't matter if we had made use of the other 80 minutes in the game

You only have bad luck when you're struggling. Liverpool fans were arguing the same point under Dalglish when the woodwork was tested regularly. The likes of last Sat the woodwork didn't really matter as they took enough chances. Had it been a 0-0 game, fans would have been using the what if line re Suarez's attempt and bemoaning luck

Deiseboy01

Just looking at the table and it's very unusual this year. Literally any side in the top ten could get into Europe while any if the bottom ten could be relegated. Real divide. Usually not so pronounced.

Iused2likebusts

No

Blatter wrote: »

Rooney has 11 assists in the league this season, the 2nd highest ahead of the likes of Hazard, Ozil and Silva despite missing a fair few games through injury.

Okay, he doesn't produce many silky through balls or isn't as easy on the eye as those sometimes but to describe him as a 'work horse' at #10 is utterly ridiculous.

I totally agree with bucketybucks assesment. Mata off Rooney or RVp would be far more effective than rooney behind rvp. Of those assists how many were from open play? Im sure atleast 3/4 were from set pieces that he would have gotten no matter what position he was playing. Mata is a better no 10 than rooney so either moyes needs to play rooney off the left or the right or play him up top instead of rvp IMO.

keane2097

No

The assists thing is a bit misleading IMO, United's overall play with Rooney at 10 is much worse than it has been with Kagawa at 10, I suspect Mata at 10 it would be a considerable further improvement.

#10 is good for Rooney and a disaster for the rest of the team's style.

Would be interested to see how many of those 11 assists were crosses, or spilled shots - the FPL definition of an assist isn't exactly indicative of a player bringing his teammates into the game.

EDIT: Actually think RVP off Rooney would be better than vice-versa.

Moyes answers questions away from the TV cameras in a seperate conference for newspapers
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manchester-united-boss-david-moyes-6696917

Asked if he was disappointed that the team have not built on the Juan Mata factor and reacted to it Moyes hit back, “Who’s not reacted?”

‘The team with the results.’

“Yeah but we played well against Fulham and should have won the game so if you take that I would have to disagree with that question.”

Moyes was then asked how he gets through when the flak is flying around so intensely.

“Just keep doing the job because I know that we’re doing the right job. We’ll do the same things, we’ll make sure things are right - prepare the players well and things will change I have no doubt.”

The questioner came back with, ‘Should you not be doing different things because the same things are not working?’

“I disagree with that as well,” answered the United boss.

MD1990

No

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Nah, when Rooney is on top of his game CF is his position and he'll score 25-30 goals in the PL matching any top striker.

he has scored over 25 PL goals 2/12 times in his career
so that isnt true

titan18

No

The questioner came back with, ‘Should you not be doing different things because the same things are not working?’

“I disagree with that as well,” answered the United boss.

We're fcuked

Rayne Wooney

MD1990 wrote: »

he has scored over 25 PL goals 2/12 times in his career
so that isnt true

Rooney has arguably only played main striker twice at United and has scored 26 and 27 in those seasons respectively.

And I said at the top of his game, so it is true

bucketybuck

No

Yeah but we played well against Fulham and should have won the game

David Moyes thinks we played well at Fulham.

There you have it folks. How do you even respond to that?

Rayne Wooney

Is Fellaini back for tomorrow or what, it's getting really annoying at this stage